[Chuck_M]

This is going fairly well.  I am glad they haven't locked or closed this thread.  I think most of us have been polite and respectful so far.  I hope I have been.  If not, it is because I am socially clumsy, and not because I intended to insult or anger anyone.  If I did, I apologize.

Since I am mostly a lurker and a stranger to most of you, I guess I should have "introduced" myself a little.

I am not a dealer or a manufacturer.

I love music and sometimes obsess over the playback equipment.

I am not an engineer or scientist so I cannot comment on any of the formal studies that have been done on this topic...other than to thank those who put in the time and effort and resources to painstakingly measure responses and try to find conclusive information that we all might ultimately learn from.  Thank you.

For the sake of argument, I will stipulate that I am the dumbest guy here.

For those who dismiss the experience that I had with three sets of the same speaker because of what must have come across as hyperbole; I am sorry that my experience wasn't in any way helpful to you.  I am not very smart and I guess I did not express myself well.

I want to thank everyone for remaining civil...most of these discussions turn into knife fights eventually.

I hope the views, experiences, information, and careful studies that many have done on this topic can be useful to new members who are reading this thread.

Since I have much to learn, I am very interested in other's experiences, opinions, et cetera; and hope this thread can remain open and civil.

Thanks for your patience with me.

[Danny Richie]

Yes, that is us.  We are releasing a new driver design tool which predicts cone, dome, dust cap, surround, and spider behavior.  Thus the reason I have been looking into DYNAMIC behavior/testing of spiders (not static!).

It sounds like some of the companies that I work with to produce the drivers that I design need this software of yours. Maybe then they can figure out how to hit the parameters I dictate to them without having to build four or five samples. And while I can dictate the materials that I want used, and specifics about the motor design, voice coil, and parameters that I need, I still can't choose for them the spider needed to get them there. They go through a little trail and error there.

It's a lot tougher than you think.  There are large variances on acceptable spiders. To be honest, i find it amazing that two identical speakers even sound similar with all the variances in materials and labor.  Just one drop of glue running out into the spider drastically changes everything.

I had a manufacturer build out an 8" woofer for me that was to be used by one of my clients. It looked pretty good and hit the numbers real well, but had just a little bit too much break up in the upper range and I really needed it solved. So the engineer told me he thought he could take care of it and he'd try to have a new sample in a few days.

It only took a few hours to have a new one assembled. Then they would run it in with steady signal for a day to get some burn in time on it. It then would set for 10 to 12 hours to cool down so they can measure it and get some reasonable T/S parameters.

The next sample looked considerable better. The parameters were the same but the break up was gone. So I had to ask, what did you do to it? He said he used an adhesive on the surround that dried soft verses the adhesive used on the first woofer that dried harder.

Sometimes something simple can have a great effect.

But, I digress.  In order to discuss the original topic, get out of the frequency domain and think in the time domain.  While FR is a steady state response, Mr. Richey is talking waterfall: that is time domain (actually a hybrid of the time and FR).  Two drivers with identical steady state FR can behave totally different in the time domain.  But, now we are starting to get into linear and non-linear damping.  Egads!!!!

I know, these guys don't understand what I am talking about when I try to explain the difference that is seen in the time domain, and what the the burn in effects are really doing.

This discussion is getting a little metaphysical.  Although Danny and I probably do disagree on the practical significance of break in, I don't think the disagreement itself has much practical significance.  I can see where box tuning might be affected by meaurements taken after 10 seconds of woofer play vs 100 hours, but I don't think the crossover  design will be.  That's something you can check easily--just measure the frequency response and phase tracking of a given speaker repeatedly over a period of time.  When I've done this (and the speaker used one of Danny's woofers), I sure couldn't see any difference.  So I would have come up with the same crossover no matter where the woofer was in its real or imagined break in period.  I guess you can spin a tale about cone midrange response curves changing at the low end over time and therefore impacting the woofer-mid cross in a 3-way, but again I haven't observed that.  So maybe I'm wrong about the audibility of break in.  Could be.  But I don't think it would affect my crossovers. 

Dennis, I agree with you, but you still are not understanding what is going on.

Yes we agree that the burn in effects hardly change the box tuning and it has almost no effect on the response measurements that we use to design a crossover with. It has some frequency response effects below 200Hz but that's about all. So it has no baring on anything you or I see on a SPL based graph.

What you don't see yet is the effect that the burn in time has in the time domain. Even looking at the spectral decay that shows stored energy and frequency can allow you to see the differences that the burn in time is having on the driver.

Ever notice how the guys that claim the speakers are changing over the initial hours of play always say that the sound gets smoother. Vocals get more relaxed, and even detail levels are better. Those are not effects that happen by getting used to a speaker. If a speaker is bad, harsh or hard to listen to, you don't get used to it. Those are issues that are glaring issues like a head light shinning in your face. You don't get used to it. What they are describing is a result of less stored energy. The driver is no longer ringing like it might have been at first. It settles faster. So vocal regions are cleaner. And there is more space between notes in the upper ranges.

Does anyone else understand this yet?

[Art_Chicago]

Dennis, I agree with you, but you still are not understanding what is going on.

Yes we agree that the burn in effects hardly change the box tuning and it has almost no effect on the response measurements that we use to design a crossover with. It has some frequency response effects below 200Hz but that's about all. So it has no baring on anything you or I see on a SPL based graph.

What you don't see yet is the effect that the burn in time has in the time domain. Even looking at the spectral decay that shows stored energy and frequency can allow you to see the differences that the burn in time is having on the driver.

Ever notice how the guys that claim the speakers are changing over the initial hours of play always say that the sound gets smoother. Vocals get more relaxed, and even detail levels are better. Those are not effects that happen by getting used to a speaker. If a speaker is bad, harsh or hard to listen to, you don't get used to it. Those are issues that are glaring issues like a head light shinning in your face. You don't get used to it. What they are describing is a result of less stored energy. The driver is no longer ringing like it might have been at first. It settles faster. So vocal regions are cleaner. And there is more space between notes in the upper ranges.

Does anyone else understand this yet?

Danny,
Not me 
Granted, my degree is in nuclear chemistry, not in physics nor electronics, but if you provide a more detailed description on  the 'stored energy'  phenomenon , I may still get it. Wether it is related to the original post, it is a different matter.
Regards

[Æ]

Does anyone else understand this yet?

I understand "break in" very well, thank you, having built and measured several loudspeakers of my own. But I'm still waiting for your supposed manufacturers comments about capacitor "burn in." Because if it is real, I want verification and even more so I want to know why. Yes, intelligent minds want to know why. We don't except all the hype that surrounds any dielectric.

[Danny Richie]

Danny,
Not me 
Granted, my degree is in nuclear chemistry, not in physics nor electronics, but if you provide a more detailed description on  the 'stored energy'  phenomenon , I may still get it. Wether it is related to the original post, it is a different matter.
Regards

Here you go. Go to: linkwitzlab.com/frontiers_2.htm  Linkwitz posted some good information on it that should keep you reading for a while.

[Danny Richie]

I understand "break in" very well, thank you, having built and measured several loudspeakers of my own. But I'm still waiting for your supposed manufacturers comments about capacitor "burn in." Because if it is real, I want verification and even more so I want to know why. Yes, intelligent minds want to know why. We don't except all the hype that surrounds any dielectric.

Ask anyone that designs or manufactures caps. I don't know of any that do not have some recommended burn in time. And it is real easy for anyone to verify. Just listen.

[Æ]

Ask anyone that designs or manufactures caps. I don't know of any that do not have some recommended burn in time. And it is real easy for anyone to verify. Just listen.

I'll pit my hearing against yours anytime.
Still waiting for manufacturers comments, positive verification. I know I'll be waiting a long time.

[S Clark]

I'll pit my hearing against yours anytime.

Shall we steer clear of the pissing contest and keep this on track?

[ricardojoa]

My experience with speaker break in, is that i did not hear any differences with my songtower whether after hearing for the initial hour or after pronlonged time. But with my ascend sierra 1, there were subtle difference in the mid and highs. To be a little specific, the mids sounded less pronouced. When i first fired up the sierra1 , the mid sounded there was a bump in the 2k range. As for the highs, they seemed to have more details, kind of like more resolution. These differences seemed to happend within the first week.

[Danny Richie]

I'll pit my hearing against yours anytime.
Still waiting for manufacturers comments, positive verification. I know I'll be waiting a long time.

Yeah, let's not let this fall into who can and can't hear. That will end the thread for sure.

You'll still be waiting if you don't call and ask them. They aren't going to call you.

[grantc79]

I'm still very much in the camp of you adjust to the speakers rather than the speakers adjust to you.

I hear what you are saying about the makeup of speakers physically danny such as the glues used or any of a number of other things and I can't disagree with that.

My current speakers that I'm waiting to replace have aluminum domes and when I first got them they seemed so shrill to me because I have been used to ribbons and soft domes. Now that I've had them for a long time I can crank them and not have much of an issue. However if you drop a pair of Klipsch speakers in here, new in box or sitting around forever, and my ears will feel like they are bleeding. Give me a set of soft dome speakers and I might say they sound too laid back for me and I can't hear anything up top.

I understand the speaker break in argument and maybe you can find something high tech enough take readings and say that it does happen.

However, I think most peoples ears adjust which is why they change their point of views on speakers.


What really oughta happen is we oughta take 2 pairs of identical speakers 1 fresh out of the box and 1 completely "broken in" and see if people can pick the difference in completely blind testing.

[Nuance]

Does this topic really belong in the Salk forum?  I think not...  We're not talking about Salk speakers at all.

[audiotom]

we were initially talking about Salk speakers but the topic has digressed

[Danny Richie]

What really oughta happen is we oughta take 2 pairs of identical speakers 1 fresh out of the box and 1 completely "broken in" and see if people can pick the difference in completely blind testing.

I've done that.

Does this topic really belong in the Salk forum?  I think not...  We're not talking about Salk speakers at all.

Jim, feel free to move this discussion to the GR Research circle if you like. You can split this thread after the first post and move the rest. My circle is full of technical discussions anyway.

[Æ]

Yeah, let's not let this fall into who can and can't hear. That will end the thread for sure.

You'll still be waiting if you don't call and ask them. They aren't going to call you.

That calling part is more difficult than you know. Because, who do you talk to or who do you ask for? Especially if you don't have legitimate businesss calling the company in the first place. Which extension please? "Hi, could I just chat with one of your engineers, waste a bit of his time? I promise I won't be long. No, I wont be buying any capacitors today."

Oh yeah, lets move this thread to your circle, where you always get the last word.

[dflee]

Actually, I deal with manufacturers in my profession all the time. Just call and ask for Technical Services. You might be surprised that some companies have personnel just waiting to help with any questions you might have.

[Danny Richie]

Oh yeah, lets move this thread to your circle, where you always get the last word.

I don't need the last word. And no one is censored there. Leaving it here is fine too and really up to Jim.

[Saturn94]

Does this topic really belong in the Salk forum?  I think not...  We're not talking about Salk speakers at all.

I don't need the last word. And no one is censored there. Leaving it here is fine too and really up to Jim.

There are other examples in this circle of discussions not strictly about Salk speakers and no one has asked to shut down those threads.  This topic, even though controversial, would seem to apply to any brand of speakers, including Salk.  So, IMHO, this topic isn't that inappropriate for this circle and for the most part has been respectful.

Personally, I'm skeptical about how the audibility break in.  I've not noticed any break in effect on any speaker I've owned, including my Salks (see, I'm on topic now ).  Even so, I do like to read others opinions and how they arrived at their conclusions; perhaps I'll learn something.  I do respect Danny's approach of offering measurements to support his conclusions.

[Æ]

I've not noticed any break in effect on any speaker I've owned, including my Salks (see, I'm on topic now ).  Even so, I do like to read others opinions and how they arrived at their conclusions; perhaps I'll learn something.  I do respect Danny's approach of offering measurements to support his conclusions.

The nice thing though, is that you can actually measure changes in driver parameters, regardless if they are audible or not. Still wanting to know if this is applicable to capacitor "burn in."

[sarge_in]

My experience with speaker break in, is that i did not hear any differences with my songtower whether after hearing for the initial hour or after pronlonged time. But with my ascend sierra 1, there were subtle difference in the mid and highs. To be a little specific, the mids sounded less pronouced. When i first fired up the sierra1 , the mid sounded there was a bump in the 2k range. As for the highs, they seemed to have more details, kind of like more resolution. These differences seemed to happend within the first week.

I have actually had a similar experience with my car speakers (Focal). The first day I had them installed, I had them playing hard and felt distinct thump-in-the-chest the first few times. That thump has long gone (at same volume, of course) without any other change in the system. And the fact that this was what I FELT, not just heard, does not lend itself to the "ears getting used to speakers" theory. No detailed frequency or waterfall plots of course, but it did make me less believing of there-is-absolutely-no-break-in.

I also felt that the highs settled down a bit. For the first week or so, I was at the installers pretty much every day to tweak the tweeter level, but that went away after 7-10 days. This one MAY belong to ears-getting-used-to-speakers but I don't believe that. I am pretty sensitive to highs and don't think can ever get 'used' to bright speakers.