AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Well Tempered Lab => Topic started by: Erocka2000 on 12 Mar 2012, 06:22 pm
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Hey Folks,
Over the weekend during some listening, I've noticed that the center image on my system has drifted towards the right. I tried repositioning my speakers to no avail. I then used the printed Amadeus protractor just to make sure the alignment looked right. What I found was that the headshell seemed to be angled too far inward, so that the cartridge seemed to pointing more towards the spindle. I then had to go through the process of removing the cartridge in order to loosen the headshell so that I can align it to the protractor. After doing that, it somewhat fixed the problem, but the center of the image is still to the right of center.
Does any one have any insight into what this may be? I'm also nervous now that I shouldn't have moved the headshell, even though the protractor showed it to be very off (I'm just not sure how accurate that protractor is being that the measurement of 7" it has underneath is not even close to being 7"). Are they any other things it could be, such as internal wiring? It is driving me insane.
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So, why not just rotate the pulley by rotating it clockwise or counterclockwise to get the headshell parallel to the platter? Or am I missing something?
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Rotating the pulley would be for changing the azimuth, which I've also done. My problem is with the angle of the headshell itself, i.e. cartridge alignment.
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Hello Eroka...
You should be downloading the alignment gauge off the Internet, and have it sized to print, so that 7" does, indeed, measure 7". I did this and had it cut and laminated to ensure the headshell/my Dynavector cart ran parallel to the lines. I had to undo and tighten the set screw to achieve this, but ultimately, it was done.
Here is a good thread about it:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=81648.0
To my knowledge, there is nothing wrong with adjusting the single screw; it won't do anything adversely...
Once you get the proper measurements of the gauge for printing, then come back to report whether this fixed your right image issue. I cannot imagine using incorrect measurements on this gauge for something that was clearly marked as, for instance, seven inches, would be acceptable.
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Hmm, then I am not clear on what you are referring to...
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If I'm understanding correctly, he's stating (without putting words in his mouth) that his headshell/cart isn't aligning with the 'grid' lines so that they're parallel.
I'm saying that the gauge in the owner's manual isn't to the correct size (just measure it); print it off the Internet so that it is to the correct size. Mine wasn't aligned correctly, either...even coming from the dealer or whomever. I took off my cart and unscrewed the single screw underneath the arm and adjusted a few degrees until it and the cart both aligned (parallel) correctly, then tightened it.
Now, with that said, I have no clue if it will fix Eroka's issue, but it may very-well do so. :scratch:
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Hmm, I think the sizing of the protractor template may be the issue. I'm trying to print it out at the correct size, but I can't get it exactly 2"x7". Do you happen to have a copy of the file you used for the printout?
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Yeah...e-mail me at jason.sawyer09@gmail.com; or PM me.
I'll shoot you a pdf file, and hopefully it will work.
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So I tried the template that Jason so graciously sent me. Unfortunately, it was the same alignment I had reached using the smaller printed version of the protractor I had. The specific album that is driving me nuts is Muddy Water's Folk Singer. On the first track, the vocals are right of center. If I switch the left and right interconnects coming out of the turntable, the sound is then centered. I'm not sure if this means it's room related or something else.
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You might want to contact your dealer and/or Dynavector USA (the importer)
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I'm thinking it really may be a room issue. My room is a rectangle, but the system is on the left side of the room. The left speaker is about 4 ft. from a wall with 2 windows on it's side and the right speaker has an open kitchen area to it's right side. I may have to keep trying different speaker positions and toe-in. I just wish I had someone who can help. Anybody live near Brooklyn? ;)
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Got a copy of Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound"? A go-to resource when having room-related set-up problems.
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Hi again Eric.
roscoeiii has some good recommendations. What you've described here and in the last e-mail is somewhat perplexing. I have a room not too unlike yours (12 x 19.5), and I have to place the rack/speakers along the long wall, which opens-up at about 12' into a dining area; so there's quite a bit of space there...not very ideal at all. I have no centering issue like you're describing. If anything, there's a bass node I've been working on rectifying; but the imaging and centralization of vocals are very, very good.
Wish I could offer more help. The fact that the imaging balances when you switch interconnects around leads me to believe it's not room-related.
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Ugh. Well, when the interconnects are in their normal right/left plugs, the image skewed to the right, but when I switch the interconnects, the image centers. Couldn't that be the room, essentially always making the image always go to the right? If it wasn't room related, when I switch the interconnects, shouldn't the image be skewed to the left?
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When you say that you are switching the interconnects, does this mean 1) when you get the centered image, the L output is going to the R input and vice versa? Or 2) that you change the L to L interconnect to the R to R plugs? If 2, then I'd suspect an interconnect problem rather than the Amadeus.
Certainly sounds like a promising clue to me. Not that I have any idea what it might be suggesting...
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It is option one. I get the centered image when I switch the left output of the Amadeus so it goes into the right input of my phono stage.
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I'm usually wrong, but here's what I'm thinking.
- does it only do it on this record/track?
- do you have any problems with any other album?
- does it do it with your other sources?
- have you measured the back corners of each speaker to the rear wall to make sure they're equal distance?
- do you have something like the Stereophile test cd #1 to check left- right and phasing? It saves so much time and dicking around. ( like you're doing now) lol
- if you have balance control, is it off center?
- check your speaker cable connections to be sure they're correct.
First track? I'll get mine out for a listen..
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- does it only do it on this record/track? It happens on other albums, but the Muddy Waters album is the most noticeable.
- do you have any problems with any other album? see above answer
- does it do it with your other sources? Using an HDCD it seems like the CD player is balanced correctly.
- have you measured the back corners of each speaker to the rear wall to make sure they're equal distance? Each speaker is the same distance from the back wall, though there is a door (which I close when listening) to the right of the right speaker.
- do you have something like the Stereophile test cd #1 to check left- right and phasing? It saves so much time and dicking around. ( like you're doing now) lol unfortunately, I do not have a test cd or album
- if you have balance control, is it off center? I have a balance control, which when I turn it towards the left speaker, seems to center the image. But I'd rather not have to use it, as I don't have to when the CD player is used.
- check your speaker cable connections to be sure they're correct. I double checked all of my speaker/RCA connections and they are all correct.
If I have time tonight, I'll try to take some pics of my room (which is basically my entire Brooklyn apartment) ;)
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Okay, so I did some more troubleshooting tonight and I think I've narrowed it down to my amp. I connected everything to my old Sansui receiver and everything was perfectly centered. So it has to be something in my Rogue Audio Cronus. I've tried swapping tubes, but that hasn't worked so far. I'll try researching some more stuff before contacting my dealer. Ugh, such is the life of an audiophile.
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I feel your pain... at least you're making some headway..
If it doesn't do it with other sources, perhaps it's the input tube for that circuit???
If you have outboard phono stage, did you try plugging into where the digital is?
Good luck and report back...
And buy a Stereophile test disc sometime...save headaches and more worthwhile than Get Better Sound.
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I have a Musical Surroundings Nova Phonomena phonostage that I used with both the Rogue and the Sansui, so the phonostage is okay. I'm going to do a few more tube combinations tomorrow. After that, I might try to replace the fuses. If that doesn't work, I'll just have to call my dealer or Rogue. I really can't wait until I get my Leben CS600. Just 10 more months :thumb:
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Oh cool, you're getting a cs600? From In Living Stereo?
Very nice. Very nice indeed. You'll love it.
With what speakers?
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Yeah, I'll be returning to In Living Stereo. I buy myself one big ticket item each year. This year was the Amadeus/EMT. Next year will be the Leben and the following year most likely the new DeVore Gibbon 88s. I'm currently using the original DeVore Gibbon 8s, which I love. Later this year I hope to get some Auditorium 23 speaker cables and interconnects. One step at a time.
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Excellent plan...
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Great to see you've narrowed it down! Even happier it wasn't the Well Tempered...
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I'm at a loss folks. Over the past few days, I've experimented setting my equipment up in various different ways. I've changed speaker position, toe-in angle and distance from the walls. I've changed every wire and interconnect, changed all my tubes, used various different amps and I'm still getting having the off center problem with the TT. I listened again to some CDs and they are centered. I really think something may be wrong with either the output of the TT or EMT cartridge. I'm going to call my dealer today to see if any of this is a known issue. It sucks, but it's making me crazy.
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Yeah, call that dealer. That is what they are there for. A clear example of the benefit of buying from a dealer.
I don't recall, do you happen to have a multimeter, SPL meter and vinyl test disk? They would be very helpful in sorting this out. And are good tools to have around in general.
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I don't have any sound tools, other than some SPL meter I downloaded on my iPhone. But I just spoke with my dealer and he's going to come out one day this weekend to have a look. Fingers are crossed.
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Well, consider me Lord of the Idiots. I wound up doing some more speaker placement test this weekend in order to finally resolve this skewed music issue. And what do you know, I fixed it. Apparently one speaker has to be more toed-in than the other to compensate for a wall being on the left side of it vs. the other speaker which has an open space to the right of it. I feel like a complete fool. I apologize to Mike Pranka for wasting his time.
That said, everything is now perfectly centered and I had a great weekend listening to tunes. For anyone else who is having similar problems, room and speaker placement can have very serious effects on soundstaging and imaging.
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Makes no sense, though, in that you said your digital was perfectly centered.
Well, glad you're sorted, in some ways! Lol.
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Well on some real critical listening with the CD player (I hadn't been listening to all that many CD's as of late), it became apparent that they were not as centered as I had thought. I was normally listening to more fuzzed out rock, that can tend to blur the imaging a bit. When I put in a more mellow CD, I was able to tell that the sound wasn't centered. So from that, I positioned the speakers to fully focus the sound.
I guess I was trying to keep the speakers perfectly symmetrical, but my room wasn't having any of that. Live and learn, I suppose.
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Out of curiosity, which speaker in a situation like yours needs toe-in, the one nearest the wall?
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Excellent conclusion.
Now you can move on to the wonders and the glory of the Amadeus.
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The speaker closer to a wall is the one that need more toe-in. It is now facing directly at me. The speaker on the right, with the open space, is now pointed just to the outside of my ear.
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The speaker closer to a wall is the one that need more toe-in. It is now facing directly at me. The speaker on the right, with the open space, is now pointed just to the outside of my ear.
Hi Erocka,
i think you place one speaker more toe-in,may be it's not correct,you can see this link for reference;http://www.sonicsonline.de/download/bedienungsanleitung_de.pdf :D
and one think,if you want center the image,you need MONO record
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Hey Gagamut, I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. Having both speakers symmetrically toed-in towards me is what gives the off center imaging. I have a side wall that is about 3.5 feet from the left speaker and a huge open space to the side of the right speaker. I needed to make the left speaker more toed-in than the right to compensate for the wall on the left and the space on the right. If I went back to having them both toed-in equally, I would be back at square one.
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Since you're getting so much effect off your side walls, you may just have your speakers spread too far apart. Try moving them more into the room.
Every audiophile thinks he/she needs to spread their speakers to the ends of the earth. Too much spreading, I say!
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Not just audiophiles but audiophool writers.
There was an infamous article in Hi-Fi Snooze many years ago that said if you want a wide soundstage then just put your speakers in the corners of your room.
:lol:
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If I did that with mine I'd have a standing wave worthy of Pugent Sound.
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Honestly, my speakers are only about 6.5' - 7' apart. Living in Brooklyn, space is at a premium. I can't move everything to the right (to get away from the wall), because my kitchen table is right there. And I don't want the speakers much closer together than 6'. Such is the price I pay for living in the big city.
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Hey Gagamut, I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. Having both speakers symmetrically toed-in towards me is what gives the off center imaging. I have a side wall that is about 3.5 feet from the left speaker and a huge open space to the side of the right speaker. I needed to make the left speaker more toed-in than the right to compensate for the wall on the left and the space on the right. If I went back to having them both toed-in equally, I would be back at square one.
Hi Erocka,
firstly,you need to use mono record because the image or voice is exactly come from the center,. If the voice hangs to the left you can move the right speaker towards the listening position until the voice is coming exactly from the center.
hope this can solve your problem :D
Sam
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I am digging this thread up because I have unfortunately opened a can of worms by checking my alignment with the Protractor from the manual(and I opened it in photoshop, so it scaled correctly). I was shocked to see how far off it was, contacted mike who said the headshell angle should be 19 degrees
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64761)
(it was at 21 or so) So I have set it at the way I interpret 19degrees:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64762)
and it is still wildly off being parallel to the protractor. I also find it odd,the x for the stylus winds up being way out by the label.
Am I totally missing something here? I will set to protractor and see what happens...
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Okay, this is more like it:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64764)
The angle (if measured like in previous picture) is around 9 degrees. This is what I have been missing! I knew there was something off about the set-up. I was a bit wary of the one screw headshell design when reading the manual as a prospective owner.
Glad to be getting in the groove with this thing now!
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That position is unlike any I've seen with an Amadeus. You need to talk to your dealer or Mike Pranka post haste.
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I have been in touch with them. After saying I probably moved the head shell attaching cartridge, not the case, Mike Pranka said the head shell angle should be 19 degrees.The plastic protractor, picture with my big hand in there, is how I interpreted this measurement. When that again made the alignment to the Amadeus Grid still be very far off, I just aligned to the grid (which is more like 9 degrees. Which position are you referring to Threadkiller?
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your null point is it 1 7/8 inch??
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Yes it is. I re-checked the alignment yesterday ( again with DSLR in live view and 10x magnification, how did I ever do it before!) and it is spot on. It seems like such an odd spot for the null point,out by the label.
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I just checked mine, and when lined up to the grid, my angle is about 14.5 degrees. 19 seems like it would be way too much, as the stylus would be pointing more towards the spindle, than lined up in the grooves.
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jsheflk,
I meant to send a note earlier. It was just from your photo it looks severely turned to the left to me.
And I've seen 4 tables set up by the master himself....but technically I don't always know what the hell I'm talking about, so don't let me confuse you further.
how does one add photos on here? I seem to have forgotten...see, told you I'm technically flawed.
but if I was at your house I could tell you if your table was set up right or not, or if your support was good or shite, by listening. lol...
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The easiest way to add photos is to use a photo-hosting site, like Flickr or Photobucket, then link to the picture on said photo-hosting site in your post.
Basically, put the link to the pictures in between [ img ] and [/ img ]. Don't leave the spaces inside the brackets. (Not sure how this is actually going to post)
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I just checked mine, and when lined up to the grid, my angle is about 14.5 degrees. 19 seems like it would be way too much, as the stylus would be pointing more towards the spindle, than lined up in the grooves.
Erocka so your cantilever is lined up to the grid, and you see 14.5 on a protractor when viewed from above, like in the picture of mine?
Threadkiller, no problem. Putting the cantilever on the grid makes more smiling faces! I noticed that my head shell had a bit of play, so after getting the head shell close, I could get the cantilever right on. Seems to me this should be part of the TT's set up process as being a bit off with the cantilever must have an effect. (though it did not sound obviously horrible when I had it a whopping 10 degrees off!)
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I see... luckily when I put mine together the head shell stayed put, I mounted the cartridge, and did more arm adjustments to get it parallel, and then the ball just so in the goo. What some of you have had to do, either from fiddling errors, or because you just plain want to fiddle, is go back to the old ways of x's and lines and paper. I let Mr F do that! :) if he says it's good then it's good.
But, he can compute and theorize all he wants, and he has!, I just want to sit and listen. And boy does it sure sound great.
Good luck out there! I'll try and get a photo of mine up soon...
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Mr. Killer, I did not want to do any fiddling, that was one of the many great aspects of this Table for me. I was very careful not to change the headshell during set-up, and that's why it was not until I could not get it to do the things I had read about, that I resorted to the Grid. I must say it is scary how good it sounded with the head shell angle so far off.
On a totally different topic: Is there any benefit to using both counterweights on the arm? I see it used that way in some photos (the 6 Moons review that was set up by a dealer) I went by what I saw on their website, and went with just one. I have a feeling there is no difference...
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Yeah, with mine lined up on the grid the angle is about 14.5 degrees. I'll try to take some pics soon.
As for using both counterweights, I do, because it allows the weight to be closer to the pivot point, which is considered better than being further away.
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Yes, use both the silver first and then the black counterweights.
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Hi,
after i saw your guys suggest use both counterweights,and then try right now,the result is better than before,thanks
:D
Sam
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It takes a village... :)
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That makes it a bit easier to get the weight as I like it for my benz. I thought about it but did not try it until now.
Also I use a bolt under the silicon cup to adjust hight of silicon on the ball (a 1/4 turn of the bolt gives a micro adjustment). This makes it easier for me as it took the hit and miss of trying to slide the cup up or down with one hand while tightning with the other . Of corse remove the bolt when have it where you want it after tightening up the key lock. :thumb:
Thanks
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I have set head shell with xx2 as per the grid alignment (approx 9 degrees) and confirm, to my ears, it sounds much better than the factory setting at 19 degrees. More sense of space, more detail/precision and far less distortion. Overall a very positive change. I also agree that good its sounds at 19 degrees. But to my ears there is no comparison.
One would have thought, at the very least, that the grid alignment (from the manual I received) and the factory setting should be consistent, whatever the true position actually is.
Kind Regards
Andrew
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Andrew,
Yes, I have puzzled over this also. I have never gotten an answer to the question about the 19 degree number not being close to the grid alignment from the manual. I will believe my ears also and forget the number. Have others checked their headshells to the grid here? I also wonder why a grid was provided (at full scale!) to double check the correct position.
James
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Yes, perhaps - and I am speculating - 19 degrees is incorrect and 9 degrees is correct.
Anyway I like what I am hearing. Perhaps others can explain the inconsistency.
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Hi Andrew,
you use 9 degree offset angle,is it because you heard a distortion from 19 degrees offset angle??and most distortion is from inside track??
Hi James'
the null point is really close to the Lable,but it is exactly right.
Regards
Sam
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you use 9 degree offset angle,is it because you heard a distortion from 19 degrees offset angle??and most distortion is from inside track??
Nothing so complex - I align with the grid because it sounds better.
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Hm...so much for the "set it and forget it" motto of the Amadeus... :scratch:
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Sonny, I disagree. It still is. And it's excellent. :lol:
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Sonny, I disagree. It still is. And it's excellent. :lol:
I am sure it is...but what I meant was that it was supposed to be factory set!
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And that's what I meant. It is. Firebaugh did all the work already.
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What no one has answered yet is why is the 19 degree angle we have been told is correct, and the grid from the manual, in such disagreement? Anyone?
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What no one has answered yet is why is the 19 degree angle we have been told is correct, and the grid from the manual, in such disagreement? Anyone?
Poor translation from AUSTRALIAN to ENGLISH??? :scratch:
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I have no idea....although the manual isn't much, to be sure. Have you ever looked at Firebaugh's paper that, I believe, is listed on the WTL site, on how and why he positioned the headshell to be where it is? Maybe that will clarify for some of you. Otherwise, as usual, I'm clueless.
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Has anyone else used a protractor to see what the angle is on their arm?
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I have no idea....although the manual isn't much, to be sure. Have you ever looked at Firebaugh's paper that, I believe, is listed on the WTL site, on how and why he positioned the headshell to be where it is? Maybe that will clarify for some of you. Otherwise, as usual, I'm clueless.
here is WT blog'http://welltemperedlab.wordpress.com/'
everything we can find from the blog :D
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well..all I can say is give the grid alignment a go and see what you think. No voodoo happens. You don't grow horns.
Its about 9 degrees on the protractor.
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I just rechecked my alignment with a real protractor last night (instead of a paper one :( ) and it is about 9-10 degrees, after using the alignment grid. Everything sounds great, and it looks right, when you see it in a groove on a spinning record.
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Since I recently changed cartridges I rechecked setup with the alignment grid --- thankfully it appears to be very close to "right on the money."
My Decca London Super Gold lost a channel and will be on it's way to Mr. Wright in the UK shortly. I took my Audio Technica AT33PTG out of retirement and setup went well and quickly -- may still play a bit more with SRA. This is the first time I've heard this cartridge (which I LOVED on my modded NAS Spacedeck) on the WTA. What I found out is that I've never really heard just how good the AT33PTG can sound. It sounds SO good that that I'm kinda dragging my feet on getting the Decca repaired --- I like what I'm hearing so much I just am not in any hurry.
Doak
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I had the same revelation occur when my Soundsmith SMMC2 left my Spacearm/Interspace for the Amadeus. A difference animal for sure on the WTA.
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I love to hear this... Thanks for posting that.
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I just rechecked my alignment with a real protractor last night (instead of a paper one :( ) and it is about 9-10 degrees, after using the alignment grid. Everything sounds great, and it looks right, when you see it in a groove on a spinning record.
Hi,i don't know what's that meaning '9-10 degrees'or 'real protractor ',can take a photo or more detail,thanks
Sam
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Hi,i don't know what's that meaning '9-10 degrees'or 'real protractor ',can take a photo or more detail,thanks
Sam
Sam,
Go to your post on the top of page 3 of this thread, I posted a picture of how I interpreted the stated correct angle of 19 degrees just after it ( when I dug this thread back up) After lining cart to grid headshell angle twisted closed to reflect 9-10 degrees. Still no one has answered the question on this number/ grid discrepancy.
James
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Where did the 19 degrees figure come from?
I have to reiterate a question James asked me, which is why the angle is adjustable at all if WTA is so confident in its fixed position. And wouldn't the integrity of the arm-cartridge coupling be improved if the arm wand were one piece instead of two?
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Where did the 19 degrees figure come from?
from an older thread...
If the Amadeus alignment gauge is located correctly, your head shell (and cartridge body) should be parallel to the lines on the gauge. There is a single stainless steel screw that holds the head shell to the arm tube and allows the head shell to be rotated and held in place. The head shell is meant to be at a 19 degree angle relative to the arm tube. As nice as it sounds now, you'll like it a bit better if you get it lined up.
Mike
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Maybe it was a typo and he meant '9'.
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Maybe it was a typo and he meant '9'.
This is what I'm thinking. As a 19 degree angle would have the cantilever pointed inward way too much. And the fact that both James and I have the same readings after aligning to the grid. I wanted to take a picture with the protractor, but I don't think you'd really be able to make out any of the lines on the protractor (black lines on a black turntable).
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Maybe it was a typo and he meant '9'.
He restated that figure(19) to me in an e-mail when I was going through this.
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This is what I'm thinking. As a 19 degree angle would have the cantilever pointed inward way too much. And the fact that both James and I have the same readings after aligning to the grid. I wanted to take a picture with the protractor, but I don't think you'd really be able to make out any of the lines on the protractor (black lines on a black turntable).
after a little bit confusion,now i understand,but the offset angle is exactly '19'degree (you can check from WT blog),if you cannot parallel the line,you better ask your dealer,find out the problem.one more thing,i didn't try other offset angle but i try different(stevenson,baerwald )null point,but the original null point is the best best best, at last hope everybody can get right setting,and enjoy it. :D
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64762)
Gagamut, This is how I got the TT, which I interpret as 19 degrees. Is this how your WTA is aligned?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=63657)
This is what the above 19 degrees looks like in relation to the grid. Far off.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64764)
And this is aligned to the grid, which when read with the protractor as in picture one reads 9-10 degrees. This is also the position that sounds the most natural and correct.
Is your TT's headshell set up like in picture 1? Have you tried aligning to the WTA grid? I don't care what degree this or that is. I want to know the correct setting, I am going with the grid unless someone explains to me why not to. Still looking for someone to give me the definitive answer as to this discrepancy...
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'And this is aligned to the grid, which when read with the protractor as in picture one reads 9-10 degrees. This is also the position that sounds the most natural and correct.
Is your TT's headshell set up like in picture 1? Have you tried aligning to the WTA grid? I don't care what degree this or that is. I want to know the correct setting, I am going with the grid unless someone explains to me why not to. Still looking for someone to give me the definitive answer as to this discrepancy...
Posted on: Today at 02:58 AM Posted by: gagamut'
Hi,you mean you adjust the headshell to 9-10 degree for parallel the line??if yes,you are wrong.because you can also adjust little bit pillar or collar for parallel the line,sometime the golf ball may be not in exactly center,a little bit close to the cup but not touch .if cannot do that,ask dealer is better.
Sam
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Hi,you mean you adjust the headshell to 9-10 degree for parallel the line??if yes,you are wrong.because you can also adjust little bit pillar or collar for parallel the line,sometime the golf ball may be not in exactly center,a little bit close to the cup but not touch .if cannot do that,ask dealer is better.
Sam
[/quote]
No, I adjusted to grid, when the sound was no better than my Music Hall 7.All you have said is I am wrong. All I did was align to grid. I really doubt you can get the headshell angle set to 19 and align it to grid. Look how far off it is in that picture. It seems like the arm pivot would have to be inches away for that to work.
Sam, So, your head shell measures 19 like in my first picture AND aligns to the grid??
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I just printed mine out and while it's not square to the lines it's not as far off as jshefik's was initially.
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I just printed mine out and while it's not square to the lines it's not as far off as jshefik's was initially.
What's a mother to do? So, is your head shell at 19 then?
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I just printed mine out
Just gotta check, at 100%?
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Just gotta check, at 100%?
yes, it's printed to the correct scale.
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What's a mother to do? So, is your head shell at 19 then?
I don't have a protractor. I'll pick one up tomorrow.
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Hi,you mean you adjust the headshell to 9-10 degree for parallel the line??if yes,you are wrong.because you can also adjust little bit pillar or collar for parallel the line,sometime the golf ball may be not in exactly center,a little bit close to the cup but not touch .if cannot do that,ask dealer is better.
Sam
No, I adjusted to grid, when the sound was no better than my Music Hall 7.All you have said is I am wrong. All I did was align to grid. I really doubt you can get the headshell angle set to 19 and align it to grid. Look how far off it is in that picture. It seems like the arm pivot would have to be inches away for that to work.
Sam, So, your head shell measures 19 like in my first picture AND aligns to the grid??
Hi here is my photo,and i measure the offset angle is exactly 19 degree.
Sam
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65645)
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Hi,you mean you adjust the headshell to 9-10 degree for parallel the line??if yes,you are wrong.because you can also adjust little bit pillar or collar for parallel the line,sometime the golf ball may be not in exactly center,a little bit close to the cup but not touch .if cannot do that,ask dealer is better.
Sam
No, I adjusted to grid, when the sound was no better than my Music Hall 7.All you have said is I am wrong. All I did was align to grid. I really doubt you can get the headshell angle set to 19 and align it to grid. Look how far off it is in that picture. It seems like the arm pivot would have to be inches away for that to work.
Sam, So, your head shell measures 19 like in my first picture AND aligns to the grid??
Hi,one more thing to remind you,you can check your 'instruction manual' pages 7,they said 'all the above adjustment can be fine turned when the cartridges is installed.'
Sam
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Sam, that doesn't look like the Amadeus protractor. Which one are you using? Also, it doesn't look like you're lining the stylus on the correct null point regardless of which protractor you're using. It looks like the tip of the stylus should be where those darker lines intersect. Once you do that I guarantee you'll have to adjust the angle of your head shell so that it lines up correctly.
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Sam, that doesn't look like the Amadeus protractor. Which one are you using? Also, it doesn't look like you're lining the stylus on the correct null point regardless of which protractor you're using. It looks like the tip of the stylus should be where those darker lines intersect. Once you do that I guarantee you'll have to adjust the angle of your head shell so that it lines up correctly.
Hi,the protractor is my previously WT reference tt,and i mark the null point 1 7/8,and the stylus is exactly place in the null point and i didn't adjust offset angle.it's true.
Eric,did you try and adjust the pillar and collar?(although the pillar and collar just can move a little bit,but it's help),i told you before you can adjust the pillar ,collar and headshell then make the cartridge parallel to the line.(i have a same problem before),hope you can do that.
Regards
Sam
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My pillar and collar are pretty much perfectly placed, so that the golf ball is in the exact center of the cup. I'm happy with the way mine is set up and it even looks right when the stylus is in a record groove. If I have time today, I'll try to take a picture of what I mean. Regardless, even if I changed the head shell angle back to 19 degrees, there is no way any amount of movement of the pillar or collar will allow the stylus to line up with the Amadeus protractor.
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My pillar and collar are pretty much perfectly placed, so that the golf ball is in the exact center of the cup. I'm happy with the way mine is set up and it even looks right when the stylus is in a record groove. If I have time today, I'll try to take a picture of what I mean. Regardless, even if I changed the head shell angle back to 19 degrees, there is no way any amount of movement of the pillar or collar will allow the stylus to line up with the Amadeus protractor.
if you satisfied,just enjoy it,happy listening :D
Sam
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James,
The grid/protractor on the WTL site is incorrect. I spoke with Firebaugh today, he confirmed that the head shell angle should be 19 degrees. I haven't had a need to check the grid, so wasn't aware it gives a different result. I'll obviously contact WTL and get it fixed. Apologies for the confusion.. I don't know how that happened. Come to think of it, I've adjusted a local friends 'table with the grid a while back.. he had moved the head shell and I had him print out the grid. It sounded better than the much more than 19 degrees he had before.. but I couldn't say if it sounded better than the proper 19 degree angle. I'd be surprised if a 9 or 10 degree angle works better across whole surface of the record than Firebaugh's 19 degrees. He put a ton of effort into figuring this out.
best,
mike
E-mail just received from Mike Pranka.
I recognized the beginning of an album not as together as say after the first cut with the now deemed incorrect grid, but I am getting better overall subtlety and nuance with it. Maybe my truth is somewhere in between. I can't believe this table has been out 3 years, and this is the first it has come to light??!!
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I can't believe this table has been out 3 years, and this is the first it has come to light??!!
Doesn't exactly instill confidence in WTL and its principals, does it?
I expect this is not the end of the story.
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James,
The grid/protractor on the WTL site is incorrect. I spoke with Firebaugh today, he confirmed that the head shell angle should be 19 degrees. I haven't had a need to check the grid, so wasn't aware it gives a different result. I'll obviously contact WTL and get it fixed. Apologies for the confusion.. I don't know how that happened. Come to think of it, I've adjusted a local friends 'table with the grid a while back.. he had moved the head shell and I had him print out the grid. It sounded better than the much more than 19 degrees he had before.. but I couldn't say if it sounded better than the proper 19 degree angle. I'd be surprised if a 9 or 10 degree angle works better across whole surface of the record than Firebaugh's 19 degrees. He put a ton of effort into figuring this out.
best,
mike
E-mail just received from Mike Pranka.
I recognized the beginning of an album not as together as say after the first cut with the now deemed incorrect grid, but I am getting better overall subtlety and nuance with it. Maybe my truth is somewhere in between. I can't believe this table has been out 3 years, and this is the first it has come to light??!!
Hi Mike,you say the protractor is incorrect(1 7/8),so did you ask Firebaugh what i s the right protractor??thanks
Sam
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Yeah...well....set to grid (9 degrees) sounds a truck load better to me than the set to 19 degrees.
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Yes, it was not subtle. Everything is so much more interesting and transparent than at the factory set 19. Now we've really started it!
All through this discovery process, the stone cold doubters(without any investigation) is really quite astounding. "You must have moved the head shell" when it did not align to grid. And now " I can't believe it sounds better" without trying the grid alignment. Isn't anyone curious anymore?
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Just to follow-up this thread. I ignored (the now incorrect) protractor and set my head shell to the confirmed 19 degrees. I have to say, I'm liking what I hear. There is more sparkle in the highs that was missing from the 9 degree angle I was using. Perhaps that Firebaugh guy was on to something. Here's hoping that the new, correct protractor (once made available) will confirm the head shell angle I've set.
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I'm moving mine this weekend. Will report back.
The error is supposedly being fixed soon on the WTL site, they'll put up a new printable grid. I'm so curious to see where mine lines up.
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Gosh - this IS interesting. I'm certainly opened minded to believe what I am hearing is different not better.
I'll shift mine back as well over the weekend and have another listen. Although I don't know about you guys but every time I touch my cart I get very nervous after lunching my last one.
Thanks for the follow up. I'm sure the designer is right - perhaps the 9 degrees just gives a different presentation that I like.
I'd say that WTL owes jshefik a beer for discovering the error in their grid. I owe him a beer for discovering 9 degrees sounds great as well.
Happy listening to everyone.
OH BTW today I am taking delivery of a friend's Spendor SA1's + Leben 600 to mind for a while. It is a magic combo. I love the little SA1's.
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I'd say that WTL owes jshefik a beer for discovering the error in their grid.
Indeed.
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I'd say that WTL owes jshefik a beer for discovering the error in their grid
If I had the resources, I would set up two WTA's with xx2's and the two different head shell angles side by side and have it out! Gee, I wonder who could do that?
It is curious that the incorrect grid angle is one half the factory 19 degree. I'll be keeping mine at the 9.5 for the foreseeable....In my case much better all around.
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OH BTW today I am taking delivery of a friend's Spendor SA1's + Leben 600 to mind for a while. It is a magic combo. I love the little SA1's.
Why can't I have friends like yours?! I've been dying for the Leben CS600 for a long time now. I might be taking the plunge come winter time. Though I also want to upgrade my speakers as well. Decisions, decisions.
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Boy, it would be nice to borrow a Leben 600 for a while. Lucky you.
As for the rest of us, looks like 19 it is. Mr F has confirmed it.
So for those of us who haven't had our head shell loosened, and for those that have, let the measuring and possible adjusting begin!
Go for the gold, gents! ( and maybe a lady or two)
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ha ha - mate - there are no ladies here: imagine that - a female audiophile! God save us. Is the man cave not a sacred shrine of all things male? ha ha.
I have the CS 600 hooked up now - well all I can say is the Melody 12a3 I have had for a while is crap in comparison. And it isn't a slouch. The CS 600 is a great amp - but you have to match with speakers carefully. It works wonderfully with the SA1's, less so with Ls3/5a's.
I was today hearing my mates Rogers Ls3/5a's (yup the original 15 ohm ones ) hooked up to a SS amp and they sounded fantastic. Gotta love someone that uses $2000 interconnects with a $300 dac (Schiit Bifrost). Crazy man.
Also had the pleasure of listening to a Linn LP 12 and TW Acustic Raven One back to back: I liked the LP12 into a Herron phono - but boy the TW into a Boulder phono (into a Boulder integrated and Crystal Mini's) didn't sound shabby either.
ha! he is a mad man. I love his place - like an Alladins cave of hi fi. every time I am there I looka round and there is something new shoved in the corner. This is a bloke with YG Carmel's parked in the corner because he has no where to put them atm.
At the moment at the 25-30 hr mark with my new (well apparently new) xx2 and its all over the place.
Have resorted to MOG out of the iPhone - don't laugh sounds great while cooking (lamb shanks - love winter!).
Cheeri Pip.
Andrew
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Alignment trauma.. the grid that was on the blog was apparently created incorrectly. Firebaugh did the numbers and someone at the office turned it into a graphics file.. or whatever people who know how to use computers (not me) do. Hardly a cause for pain, suffering or a loss in confidence of Firebaugh or WTL. Anyone who has spent any time around Bill would find such an assertion laughable. The fixed head shell resulted in not many people using the grid.. and as it turns out, a shallower head shell angle isn't the end of the world, anyway. I'll listen to both angles and if anyone cares, will share my opinion.
Anonymous sniping regarding the principals (or even principles..) of WTL I find to be rude and unnecessary. The two men behind WTL have demonstrated over the course of decades a unique commitment to high performance audio. They are also well known to me and many others to be remarkably generous, honorable and kind men.
As mom would suggest.. if we don't have anything nice or constructive to say, then save it.
Mike
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Mike
Please give us your 2 cents mate - I'd be interested in your listening impressions.
I don't think anyone was sniping - probably a little annoyed with you at first instance for dismissing the reported difference without investigation - ie your first instinct was to say "the problem is with you not us" - when in fact it was with you (ie WTL).
Personally I think that an error has been uncovered in the manual is a good thing and its great to get confirmation that the designer is 19 degrees.
Anonymous sniping regarding the principals (or even principles..) of WTL I find to be rude and unnecessary. The two men behind WTL have demonstrated over the course of decades a unique commitment to high performance audio. They are also well known to me and many others to be remarkably generous, honorable and kind men.
No one said the designer is anything but a great bloke - don't know where that came from.
Personally I think you are being all a little precious about this thread. No one is having a go at anyone and I agree, a simple error in the manual isn't a big deal. No one lost an eye.
I don't think anyone is anonymous - we are all owners who have spent (in nearly all cases) not an inconsiderable sum with WT/Dynavector - which helps to pay your bills I imagine.
As mom would suggest.. if we don't have anything nice or constructive to say, then save it.
I would have thought you would be thanking the peeps that found it for you rather than having a go at them.
Word to the wise : don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Cheers
Andrew
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ha ha - mate - there are no ladies here: imagine that - a female audiophile! God save us. Is the man cave not a sacred shrine of all things male? ha ha.
They do exist and they do ‘attend’ audio forums. However generally they do not announce their gender so as to avoid having to fend off a barrage of Neanderthal comments and being talked down to. I am aware of one who appears on various forums and is way more expert in all the really nerdy stuff than I could ever aspire to be. Has way better gear than me to.
Steve
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Really - wow: that's amazing. Great to hear. I'm all for female audiophiles. The more the merrier.
happy hi fi.
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Agreed. I find an independent woman's viewpoint on hi fi more spot on than the Neanderthals you refer to. I do get a bit sad, however, when the woman cowtows or defers to the male partner, who is usually way more clueless and ridiculous in his listening habits. So goes the way of the world.
So hell yes, encourage the woman folk. I have great respect for Elizabeth on Audiogon.
Plus, I hate mancaves...
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Hi,today i found a updates Headshell Alignment Guide news from Well tempered Blog.but the scale is not 1:1 :D
http://welltemperedlab.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/tracking-angle-analyzer-parts.pdf
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and also have a Tracking Angle Analyzer,and Tracking Analyzer Parts
http://welltemperedlab.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/making-and-using-tracking-angle-analyzer.pdf
http://welltemperedlab.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/making-and-using-tracking-angle-analyzer.pdf
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Personally I think that an error has been uncovered in the manual is a good thing and its great to get confirmation that the designer is 19 degrees.
No one said the designer is anything but a great bloke - don't know where that came from.
I don't think anyone is anonymous - we are all owners who have spent (in nearly all cases) not an inconsiderable sum with WT/Dynavector - which helps to pay your bills I imagine.
I would have thought you would be thanking the peeps that found it for you rather than having a go at them.
Cheers
Andrew
Guess I'll not be getting a beer from WTL!
James
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here is my pic
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65919)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=65920)
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That's not the Amadeus protractor. :duh:
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Guys
I mucked around today with the headshell angle setting it to 19, then back to 9 and then half way - 14 or so. I left it there. Finally shifted it back to 19 and - yup - that is where it sounds best to me. Errr - so I was talking rubbish :duh: 19 o is fuller with more "air".
And that is the end of my mucking around with head shell angles :roll: :roll:
Happy listening every one.
ps today I have had a renovated 33/303 classic amp combo for a trial: its not in the same class as the Leben but sure has drive and punch. Not bad for a 40 year old amp. Could happily live with it. And may yet.
Great fun.
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Good to hear... Plus at least you know you're not deaf... :lol:
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James and Andrew-
None of my comment regarding anonymous sniping had anything at all to do with either of you. Only one anonymous person made an unnecessary comment regarding the "principals of WTL".. Both of you are enthusiastic actual owners of the Amadeus and are certainly not anonymous to me. Sorry for the confusion.
I have the new headshell alignment guide. It's not up on the site just yet, though.
Anyone who would like a copy of the file- email me at: info@dynavector-usa.com
Mike
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Hi, Mike. I have send email to you yesterday. Please send me one copy of headshell alignment guide, thank you.
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None of my comment regarding anonymous sniping had anything at all to do with either of you. Only one anonymous person made an unnecessary comment regarding the "principals of WTL".. Both of you are enthusiastic actual owners of the Amadeus and are certainly not anonymous to me. Sorry for the confusion.
Mike
That's right, Mike's comments were directed at me and I'm quite mystified by them. I'm not anonymous -- you can PM me. What else would you like to know? You are correct, Mike, that I'm not a loyal current customer, but I was on the verge of purchasing an Amadeus and an XX2. Are only current customers allowed here? In any case, after this hostility from you, which I feel was uncalled for, I'm not so sure about the purchase.
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I wrote this:
"Anonymous sniping regarding the principals (or even principles..) of WTL I find to be rude and unnecessary."
I found your comment rude, unnecessary and unconstructive. Posting such an observation is hardly "hostile". You may not care for my observation, but there is certainly no hostility intended by it. If all of us reading this were in a room talking about turntables and you chimed in with your comment, I wouldn't have ignored it.. and would have addressed it without hostility toward you personally. If you feel I've been hostile toward you, though, then I apologize. I believe (perhaps foolishly) that all of us can and should communicate on a forum same as we would face to face. I'll make an effort to do better with that.
It's plain that WTL ownership is not required for use of this forum. Because of their ownership, I've had direct communication with and know the (actual) names of some of the folks who use the forum.. that's all.
Best wishes,
Mike
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Forgive me for resurrecting this very old thread but while researching turntables before my recent Amadeus MKII purchase I read a few threads in this forum that left me with questions. So fast forward a couple of years from this thread's previous end for the current situation regarding the alignment so that anyone looking to purchase a new WTL table might be un-confused.
The Amadeus MKII manual available on the WTL website includes a protractor that says 19 degrees. I printed it to scale and used it to check alignment from the factory, it was spot on.
So no need to rack your brain, no need to eMail anyone for the proper protractor, easy peasy.
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There are many tonearm/cartridge alignment calculators available online.
For a 10.5 inch arm the off-set angle is about 20 degrees. So the 19 degrees isn't far off.
Cheers