[Early B.]

In no way should the following statement be misconstrued as anti-measurement, but wanted to share a quick thought --

Audiophiles abide in a strange paradox. We say that we strive for sound that mimics "live music." However, if you took measurements while sitting at the best seats in the house of your favorite live music venue during a concert by your favorite artist, those measurements would be dreadful 100% of the time. And then we come home, plop down in our La-Z-Boy and say to ourselves, "I need a flat frequency response to get good sound."

Music is 90% emotional, and emotion can be "measured" in many ways. For instance, when your favorite song is playing on your car radio, it probably sounds bad and measures even worse, but you love it nonetheless because it makes you feel good. You know it feels good because you're bobbing your head, tapping your foot, playing an air guitar at the stoplight, and singing along, even though you sound awful. And once the song is over, you smash that replay button. 

Audiophiles are smart people, but often have a tendency to overthink. My advice is -- build your system around how your favorite genre of music makes you feel, not how it measures. If you like lots of bass, build some OB servo subs and crank them bitches up!   F**k the room!!!   

[jmpsmash]

Audiophiles abide in a strange paradox. We say that we strive for sound that mimics "live music." However, if you took measurements while sitting at the best seats in the house of your favorite live music venue during a concert by your favorite artist, those measurements would be dreadful 100% of the time. And then we come home, plop down in our La-Z-Boy and say to ourselves, "I need a flat frequency response to get good sound."

what kind of measurements (FR? RT60? waterfall, etc) are you taking and have taken at a concert hall in order to assert that claim?

[Early B.]

what kind of measurements (FR? RT60? waterfall, etc) are you taking and have taken at a concert hall in order to assert that claim?

No need to. It's impossible to take room measurements for every seat in the house for every song in every concert and adjust accordingly, taking also into account the listening preferences of every audience member. But you're kinda missing the point... 

[Wind Chaser]

So accuracy doesn’t matter and don’t bother with room treatments? 

[Jaytor]

I'm with Early B. I have been reading some of the posts about how some people are so worried about getting a ruler flat bass response that they are trying to figure out how to add a third or fourth sub and/or use room correction or lots of peq to fix the response.

I used REW to find a good spot for my two OB subs and adjust the phase and crossover point to the mains. I added a tiny bit of negative adjustment to one channel using the PEQ and that's it. The system sounds fabulous. Is it ruler flat? No, but it's within 2-3 db, extends to below 20Hz, and sounds great almost everywhere in the room.

Don't worry about what the curves look like. If the music sounds the way you like it, just enjoy it.

[nickd]

Agree with most of that statement Early B.
Measuring is a tool, but I’d you have ever seen a Violin being made by a craftsman, there is no measuring device in the shop other than the masters ears. They tap every board in multiple places and listen with a trained ear.

I have heard good and bad components and speakers built with only measuring equipment. ( sometimes they get lucky and it sounds good).

My soul is excited by both the sound and feel of the music. Takes a lot of good ears and artisans from the studio down to accomplish that. As my buddy Peter has always said. “There is a perfect blend between art and science”. The “only science” approach is best left to computing and space travel, not music. 

[jmpsmash]

No need to. It's impossible to take room measurements for every seat in the house for every song in every concert and adjust accordingly, taking also into account the listening preferences of every audience member. But you're kinda missing the point...

I totally understand and agree with your point about music being emotional and measurement is not everything.

What I wasn't sure is that your premise is based on something that is ill-defined. Even if you have a controlled environment, it is unclear what measuring a live performance means. And how that carries to comparing with measuring hifi equipment as they are apple and oranges.

[Big Red Machine]

I'm pretty sure the idea is to get your gear and room CAPABLE of delivering the best possible response so that when the REAL music plays it is like the artist intended/recorded. Certainly music comes in all forms of response, but if the test rig is not up to snuff, then the test results will be biased. And we shant have that!

You can't make a crappy recording sound good in a revealing system, but you might mask its warts in a bad one. YMMV.

[Tyson]

If you have the Rythmik OB subs, they have EQ built in.  Best way to figure out how to use that EQ optimally is via measuring. 

[Early B.]

Let me see if I can summarize what I was trying to say ---

We enjoy music primarily because of the way it makes us feel, but we often use sound improvement techniques that have little to do with our emotional connection to the music. For instance, adding more acoustic treatment might subtly improve the sound (soundstage, imaging, detail retrieval, etc.), but do nothing for our enjoyment. "Yeah, that sounds slightly better" is quite a bit different from, "Man, those treatments make me feel better."

I'll be honest -- while I prefer my current system, I had just as much fun listening to the system I had 10 years ago. That's because, for the past decade, I've been focused on getting audiophile quality sound at the expense of improving on the feeling the music invokes.         

[Early B.]

Even if you have a controlled environment, it is unclear what measuring a live performance means. And how that carries to comparing with measuring hifi equipment as they are apple and oranges.

Exactly. 

[jmpsmash]

Early B, thanks for the clarification. And you have made interesting points and i am sure it will lead to interesting discussions.

It is true that we can have great enjoyment regardless of the "quality" of the music reproduction, I have enjoyed music in my car, which has crappy factory audio, whatever that is. And there are days I have NOT enjoyed music in my much higher "quality" sound system. Perhaps it is just a state of mind, if you enjoy it, it will be fine whatever system it comes out of.


And speaking of live performance, I recently attended a couple of opera performances (in Royal Opera House and Teatro di Roma), with great seats (row 7/9) and I immensely enjoyed the spacious and dynamic sound, instrumental timbre has so much detail, bass is fast, dynamic, defined, but at the same time not loud. I don't get that type of sound in any stereo system.

However, I find it more enjoyable as my system improves. Imaging improvement, frequency balance improvement, bass response are the the qualities that give me most enjoyment. These days I have enough treatment in my room that I find more and more music enjoyable to listen to and they give me much joy.

So, in general I find more enjoyment while listening to a "better" system. Isn't that what we are here for?

[Early B.]

So how does one proceed with pursuing greater musical enjoyment? There are examples among us. For instance, one of the forum members purchased a pair of Klipsch speakers, not for their high fidelity, but for their "jump factor." They're fun to listen to, he says, and that's what it's all about.

[jmpsmash]

there is no single formula as there is no one standard definition of "enjoyment".

different ppl like different things, some ppl enjoy getting their "measurement" to be perfect, perfectly flat FR, super low -120dB distortion, and to them that's the definition of high fidelity and they like that sound. good for them.

on the other end of the spectrum, some ppl go by emotional enjoyment, if they sit down, turn on the system and the music give them goose bumps, they have no idea what a frequency response graph is and they don't care. that's good for them too!