Upgrading advice requested... what should be my priority??

audioengr · « **Reply #20 on:** 14 May 2019, 12:03 am »

Quote from: MikeK123 on 13 May 2019, 05:23 pm

Yeah, I'm gonna have to give those Montana's up. They do sound beautiful... though, I now realize, they're critical on placement if I want the imaging. Thanks AudioEngr. Any thoughts on whether the Spacial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers is my solution?

Not familiar with those speakers. I like DeVore, Vapor, TAD...

Steve N.

S Clark · « **Reply #21 on:** 14 May 2019, 12:43 am »

Member Arthurs had a high end pair of Montanas a few years back... and Art doesn't skimp on speakers or any other part of his system. His would image fine, in a room custom built for his stereo.

MikeK123 · « **Reply #22 on:** 14 May 2019, 01:06 am »

Hi All,
Yeah, the Montana EPS-2's are lovely, rich and full spectrum speakers. When I auditioned them, they had good (but not impressive) imaging. I purchased them for their absolutely impeccable sound quality. Now I want the imaging. Anyway, I simply can't position the Montana's any further out from the wall (as was wisely suggested by others). I'm stuck. So... I'll now consider the Spatials and hope for Nirvana.

Thanks everyone.

Tyson · « **Reply #23 on:** 14 May 2019, 02:12 am »

Did you see my previous post re: the Spatial X5's?

MikeK123 · « **Reply #24 on:** 14 May 2019, 03:34 am »

Hello Tyson... yes I read your post about the Spatial X5's... and your prior post about having a similar room arrangement. So based on your suggestions (and a few others) I concluded the Spatial open-baffle speakers were the best solution. The X5's , at $7500, just didn't entice me. Instead I bought the M3's today. I have a good subwoofer, so rather than the X5's, I'll make due with the M3's for a while.

Thanks for your suggestions about the M3's.

Tyson · « **Reply #25 on:** 14 May 2019, 03:44 am »

If you have a good sub, the M3s are a very nice choice.

JLM · « **Reply #26 on:** 14 May 2019, 10:29 am »

Note that dipoles (including open baffles) offer a very different perspective on imaging. In my experience what they provide is a huge wall of non-discrete sound compared to a smaller set of individual images coming from traditional monitoring speakers. Go listen for yourself.

Regardless it seems like you have a very less than ideal setup. One where it'd be wiser to invest in cheaper/smaller monitors and a good pair of headphones. And as always I recommend reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction", 3rd edition to learn how speakers interact with a room. In it you'll find that monitors plus multiple subs yield superior in-room results to full range floor standers that you might be able to implement now or down the road.

Tyson · « **Reply #27 on:** 14 May 2019, 02:52 pm »

Disagree re: OB's not being able to image well. If you have an OB that uses constant directivity in it's forward firing drivers, it's very possible to get excellent imaging, while at the same time getting a large/expansive rear field ambiance. I go to a lot of live classical music concerts and recitals, OB speakers are much closer to the sound I hear in real life.

ricmon · « **Reply #28 on:** 14 May 2019, 06:17 pm »

I have a pair of Emerald Physic 2.4 OB's and the imaging is to die for. Sometimes I find myself fixated on the space between the speaker looking at the music. Yes they throw up that kind of sound stage.

Ric

MikeK123 · « **Reply #29 on:** 14 May 2019, 06:48 pm »

Hi Ricmon,

I researched the Emerald Physic 2.4 speakers just now based on your comment. I hadn't considered those (I just purchased the Spatial M3's yesterday). I wonder if the excellent imaging is common to the OB design in general, or whether there are significant degrees of improvement between OB mfg's? That would be interesting to know. Of course, there's a lot of subjectivity in the experience, but maybe you've auditioned several? Any thoughts on whether they consistently outperform floor speakers? Is there a particular OB speaker you've found that super images? How forgiving have you found the OB design to near-wall placement?

ricmon · « **Reply #30 on:** 14 May 2019, 07:23 pm »

I think what contributes to the the EP's imaging is the concentric tweeter, mid-range driver setup and the wide band nature of the mid-range diver (12 inches).

Ric

Saturn94 · « **Reply #31 on:** 14 May 2019, 11:37 pm »

Quote from: MikeK123 on 13 May 2019, 05:04 pm

.....Exacerbating this poor arrangement (I'm now embarrassed to say) is a 6ft couch which sits between the speakers, nearly touching each. Sheesh... what was a mystery to me before is now glaringly evident from everyone's comments: I need to move the speakers out further and remove the couch (I'm hanging my head in shame as I type this BTW!). . Unfortunately, such changes are not possible due to... reality....

I’m afraid as long as this setup can’t be changed, no speaker or electronic upgrade is going to be able to give you the imaging improvements you seek. ☹️

audioengr · « **Reply #32 on:** 15 May 2019, 01:07 am »

Like I said before, no absorbing material between or behind the speakers. Only on the sidewalls if you can see the tweeters with a mirror form the listening position. Move the sofa or the speakers.

Steve N.

MikeK123 · « **Reply #33 on:** 15 May 2019, 05:56 am »

Hi All,

Yes, from this posting I've learned that my speakers' positioning is the problem and that due to my room's constraints the current Montana EPS-2 (tower speakers) I'm getting no imaging from will never be a good match. So, I'll sell them and have already purchased Spatial M3 Turbo S speakers. From what I've learned on this thread, I intend to place the Spatials along the long-side of the 16fft side of the 16x25 room (and hope the fireplace between them will offer less interference than the couch -now sitting between the Montana's at the long side of the room... though only 8ft apart since that large room is shared by the kitchen). If all this effort fails... I'll have to use exotic headphones (as was wisely suggested by JLM earlier). I'm also gonna try that mirror trick AudioEng mentioned for placement of my sound boards. That's the best part of this audio-nirvana roller-coaster quest... the optimism of waiting for our next purchase to arrive and then immersing our selves in the results. LOL It never ends... which, I suppose, may be the best part of this hobby.

Thanks everyone for this great thread. I've enjoyed it.

SFDude · « **Reply #34 on:** 15 May 2019, 03:07 pm »

Quote from: MikeK123 on 15 May 2019, 05:56 am

That's the best part of this audio-nirvana roller-coaster quest... the optimism of waiting for our next purchase to arrive and then immersing our selves in the results. LOL It never ends... which, I suppose, may be the best part of this hobby.

That is a thing that plagues a lot of us, even though the recommendations are sound and should get you a decent system set up properly for your room. We are already past the point of no return so why fight it! The audionervosa path continues and we constantly look for newer and better things in an attempt to recreate the sound we subjectively are looking for.

Good luck! I am thoroughly enjoying my M3TS speakers. 😁

-dave

ErikMi · « **Reply #35 on:** 13 Jul 2019, 05:15 pm »

You need a Pre Amp.. ARC is a good choice

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #36 on:** 14 Jul 2019, 01:45 am »

Spend a little more money and get a used ARC REF 3 or LS 27.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9d5aa-audio-research-reference-3-tube

audiobomber · « **Reply #37 on:** 14 Jul 2019, 01:52 am »

No electronics or power conditioning will resolve the soundstage issue. As others have said, it is a speaker placement issue. My friend has Nautilus 802 speakers and was lamenting the SQ. I went over to help and found they had a small couch between the speakers and an off-center listening chair. I removed the loveseat and centered the listening chair, moved the speakers so they were equidistant from the walls and toed them in slightly. Boom, nice soundstage, no cost.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #38 on:** 14 Jul 2019, 03:22 am »

If your room is not the problem and you have tried different positions for your speakers, then it is your electronics.

Not all DAC's sound the same. In fact they can sound remarkably different. I have done in home reviews on several higher end DAC's. The PS Audio Direct Stream has a huge sound stage with great air and transparency. So does the Exogal Comet which sounds almost 3D it is so holographic. My Luxman DA-06 also has a wide and deep sound stage.

Certainly your amp and preamp also play a role. I switched from a Van Alstine Hybrid tube preamp to a much more expensive BAT VK51se preamp and the sound stage widened tremendously. Same goes for switching from a Parasound A21 amp to a Pass amp.

I would also consider doing a free trial of HQ player as it is compatible with Roon. But you need to run it through a decent computer. You will be surprised at the difference in sound quality.

You may want to consider trying different DAC's or adding a preamp. Audio Advisor, Music Direct and a few other online companies have a 15 to 30 day trial period. The Schiit Yggdrasil is a great DAC and they have a 15 day return policy.

Maybe a local dealer will let you take home some gear.

ErikMi · « **Reply #39 on:** 23 Jul 2019, 03:47 pm »

Magnapan.. At least if you don't like them (unlikely) you won't get hosed on resale.. Dynamic speakers that image like mad.. Proac D30R or if your room is Big D48R.. Dynaudio's, all of them..

Oops I missed the part about Spatial