[TJHUB]

I am contemplating going subless with my setup.  Besides 2-channel, I also use my HT2-TL's for home theater use.  To experiment today, I disconnected my sub and ran Audyssey on my receiver running the HT2's full range.

I've measured down to 20Hz with my HT2's in my room.  They sound very capable overall.  So to test if I can live without a sub for HT, I watched "The Incredibles" as it's the last movie I watched with the kids while running dual Submersive HP's.  That was fun!!

Overall, I'd say the Salk's are entertaining enough for HT.  The bass is low and deep, but obviously nothing like the dual Submersives.  Anyway, one scene in the movie seemed to produced a floppy sound from the right speaker.  There was no mechanical sounds like voice coils bottoming out.  It sounded more like drivers being over extended.  I measure the db level during this scene at 100db at my listening position which is 13' away from the speakers in a ~6,500cF room with large openings to other large rooms.

This got me wondering how far the W18 can be pushed before it gets damaged.  Is the floppy noise the limit and damage is eminent?  Or, can the W18 take this abuse without damage as long as it's not getting bottomed out?

I run a pair of Odyssey Stratos Extreme SE mono blocks.  I think they are over 300w @ 4ohms, but I'm not certain. 

Thoughts? 

[ccotenj]

^^^

good question...  i've played mine at significant volume for movies, but never full range at that volume (and given my room/setup, likely never pushed nearly as much as you did in your experiment through them)...  jim being jim though, i'm sure he'd take care of us if we managed to blow one...

i've always used the submersive with mine for ht...  that being said, i have fed them some low frequency music and pushed them really hard, and i've never gotten a "floppy" sound...  it's fun to watch the w-18's pump back and forth... 

dang tj, you got 2 of them there and you are turning them off???  i'm coming to steal 'em!!!   

[Paul K.]

I can't answer your direct question but working backwards from your listening position, which at 13 feet is almost exactly 4 meters, at 1 meter from the speakers, the SPL should be close to 112 dB.
Paul

[TJHUB]

^^^

good question...  i've played mine at significant volume for movies, but never full range at that volume (and given my room/setup, likely never pushed nearly as much as you did in your experiment through them)...  jim being jim though, i'm sure he'd take care of us if we managed to blow one...

i've always used the submersive with mine for ht...  that being said, i have fed them some low frequency music and pushed them really hard, and i've never gotten a "floppy" sound...  it's fun to watch the w-18's pump back and forth... 

dang tj, you got 2 of them there and you are turning them off???  i'm coming to steal 'em!!!   

I know it seems ridiculous regarding my subs.  Actually one is mine and the other is on loan from a friend to test dual subs in my room.  They are actually both for sale, but I'm having second thoughts about selling mine. 

The "floppy" sound came when the rocket was launching.  I looked at the W18's and they looked like they were moving back and forth about 3"!  (slight exaggeration) 

I know Jim would replace a driver if it blew, but I don't ever want it to come to that.  Plus I couldn't allow Jim to replace something I damaged while being and idiot.  That's the reason for the question.  What can they take?

[jsalk]

That "floppy" sound is most likely the drivers reaching their XMAX.  The lower you make the speakers play, the sooner the XMAX will be reached.  If you use Audessey and it boosts the low frequencies at all, the drivers can reach their XMAX quite early.  Remember, the lower the frequency, the more air you have to move.  And you can only move so much air with a 7" driver.  Eventually the XMAX will be exceeded and while the W18's are fairly robust, driver damage can occur.

- Jim

[Big Red Machine]

Hey TJ, if you had a better amp the woofers would already be lying on the floor!   JK

Sounds like the crossover is a little low right now? 

[DMurphy]

That "floppy" sound is most likely the drivers reaching their XMAX.  The lower you make the speakers play, the sooner the XMAX will be reached.  If you use Audessey and it boosts the low frequencies at all, the drivers can reach their XMAX quite early.  Remember, the lower the frequency, the more air you have to move.  And you can only move so much air with a 7" driver.  Eventually the XMAX will be exceeded and while the W18's are fairly robust, driver damage can occur.
- Jim

Right--I think that's why God created subwoofers. 

[TJHUB]

That "floppy" sound is most likely the drivers reaching their XMAX.  The lower you make the speakers play, the sooner the XMAX will be reached.  If you use Audessey and it boosts the low frequencies at all, the drivers can reach their XMAX quite early.  Remember, the lower the frequency, the more air you have to move.  And you can only move so much air with a 7" driver.  Eventually the XMAX will be exceeded and while the W18's are fairly robust, driver damage can occur.

- Jim

Thanks for the response Jim.  I figured as much.  At least I know the limits now. 

[TJHUB]

Hey TJ, if you had a better amp the woofers would already be lying on the floor!   JK

Sounds like the crossover is a little low right now?

I was waiting for you to respond.   I figured you had to have the W18's maxed out a few times already.  It would seem I have plenty of power to put the W18's "on the floor" if I wanted to...

This test was running the HT2-TL's full-range, so yes, the crossover is a "little" low right now.   I wish my receiver has a subsonic filter I could use. 

It looks like going subless is going to be much more difficult than I thought.  Oh well. 

[Nuance]

Terry,

The HT2-TL's perform surprisingly well sans-subwoofer in your huge room; better than I ever imagined.  However, for movies there is just no way.  We'll get your subwoofer situation figured out man, but until then I'd hang on to that Submersive.  Just my $0.02

P.S.  I see dual LMS 18's, or maybe even quads (dual opposed) in your future.

[TJHUB]

Terry,

The HT2-TL's perform surprisingly well sans-subwoofer in your huge room; better than I ever imagined.  However, for movies there is just no way.  We'll get your subwoofer situation figured out man, but until then I'd hang on to that Submersive.  Just my $0.02

P.S.  I see dual LMS 18's, or maybe even quads (dual opposed) in your future.

Hey Brandon.  You're right.  There is no way I'll be able to go without a sub for movies.  I tried...

I have a buyer coming on Saturday, so potentially no Submersive after that.  BUT, our friend Patrick says I can hang onto his Submersive until the DIY project is done.   Isn't he the greatest?

There are potentially dual 18" LMS's in my future.  I'm very worried about a few things.  I really hope this turns out for the better.   

[ratso]

i am right in the middle of re-building my system around my HT2-TLs to incorporate dual subs. i will (hopefully soon) be getting a parasound P-7 preamp which will allow me to do 2 channel bass management and also incorporate my HT system. i will be getting dual 15" rythmik subs - my hope is that they will be perfect for music and also give a pretty good punch for HT (i could always run them a bit hot for movies if needed but i'm not sure i will need to). add in an antimode to smooth out the 2 channel bass and that's my plan. i have a feeling it will work out well, i will give a little  mini report (not my usual 3 page affair  ) when i get it together.

[bigbwb]

Hey Terry,
I am surprised you even considered going subless   I tried running my ascend Towers without my Rythmik full range and for movies and even some music, they just dont reach low enough for that extra low material.  In room my towers are putting out solid SPL's around 30hz but with the new soundtsracks on some blu-rays, its just not enough without the Rythmik.  Ever since you opted for the preamp without the HT bypass option, it seems like you have been struggling with the sub integration.  I am glad I kept my 2100, without the HT bypass, things get quite tricky.  Like Nuance mentioned, keep the submerssive, I heard Patricks (the one you have now) and its a great sub!  Based on what the boys have told me and your posts, I am not sure a different sub is the answer for you but rather the way it integrates into your specific setup, again just my opinion:)

I am hoping to try and narrow down a date for all of us to GTG.  I do want to hear your setup or at least the HT2-TL's one of these days too!

Brandon

Hey Brandon.  You're right.  There is no way I'll be able to go without a sub for movies.  I tried...

I have a buyer coming on Saturday, so potentially no Submersive after that.  BUT, our friend Patrick says I can hang onto his Submersive until the DIY project is done.   Isn't he the greatest?

There are potentially dual 18" LMS's in my future.  I'm very worried about a few things.  I really hope this turns out for the better.   

[TJHUB]

Hey Terry,
I am surprised you even considered going subless   I tried running my ascend Towers without my Rythmik full range and for movies and even some music, they just dont reach low enough for that extra low material.  In room my towers are putting out solid SPL's around 30hz but with the new soundtsracks on some blu-rays, its just not enough without the Rythmik.  Ever since you opted for the preamp without the HT bypass option, it seems like you have been struggling with the sub integration.  I am glad I kept my 2100, without the HT bypass, things get quite tricky.  Like Nuance mentioned, keep the submerssive, I heard Patricks (the one you have now) and its a great sub!  Based on what the boys have told me and your posts, I am not sure a different sub is the answer for you but rather the way it integrates into your specific setup, again just my opinion:)

I am hoping to try and narrow down a date for all of us to GTG.  I do want to hear your setup or at least the HT2-TL's one of these days too!

Brandon

My story is much more complicated than I have time to type out.  I'll tell you all about it when we have our GTG.

I'm struggling with sub integration, yes.  But the issue is not my preamp.  The preamp I'm running does have HT-bypass (I'll NEVER go without that!), but it doesn't have any bass management or high-pass filter.  I have used a few different high-pass filters, but they all seem to degrade the sound to some level.  The one that degrades the sound the least (which actually sounds very good) has a very shallow slope that is not enough to pull a bass peak I get with my HT2-TLs completely out of the equation.  I'm working on that...

The Submersive is my problem.  I don't completely understand why, but it doesn't work well or measure well in my favorite spot.  My previous SVS's measured and performed great there, with my PB13-Ultra working so great that I didn't have to use anything more than it's built-in single band parametric to get a flawlessly flat response. 

This is when Patrick loaned me his Submersive so I could try duals.  This did not work well at all.  The subs work together and EQ pretty well, but they collapse my sound stage and make the overall tone seem thick.  Dual Submersives is pretty damn fun for HT when running them hot.   However, I'm a music first guy, so I don't care how fun HT is if the music isn't sounding its best.

In desperation I moved the Submersive behind my listen position (very close).  Now this thing sounds freakin' perfect for music.  As a matter of fact, I can't tell it's back there at all.  The bass is very defined and punchy.  The sub also measures perfectly there and I could go without any EQ if I wanted.  The problem is that you just can't sit 2 feet from a sub that powerful!!   Two 15" drivers and 2,400wrms is just too much that close to you.  I don't like my couch moving around that much! 

So I'm moving on from the Submersive.  I'm hoping that going to at least a single 18" LMS with some serious power will measure as good as my previous PB13-Ultra did.  My theory is the front firing driver gets located in a good position to sound and measure well vs. the dual opposed design of the Submersive.  I've seen many people get them to work perfectly in their rooms, but I sure can't do it unless it's near-field. 

I hope I'm not screwing up by selling it as it does perform fantastically behind my listening position.  So well, that I'm wondering if ANY sub on my front wall will touch the sound quality.  Once you hear something "better", it's always so hard to settle for anything "less."  I guess I may be about to find out.

(This is the short story...I have more... )

[TJHUB]

i am right in the middle of re-building my system around my HT2-TLs to incorporate dual subs. i will (hopefully soon) be getting a parasound P-7 preamp which will allow me to do 2 channel bass management and also incorporate my HT system. i will be getting dual 15" rythmik subs - my hope is that they will be perfect for music and also give a pretty good punch for HT (i could always run them a bit hot for movies if needed but i'm not sure i will need to). add in an antimode to smooth out the 2 channel bass and that's my plan. i have a feeling it will work out well, i will give a little  mini report (not my usual 3 page affair  ) when i get it together.

That should be a sweet setup.  Make sure you tell us all about it once it's all dialed in.  For the record, I don't have a problem with a 3 pager if the content is good! 

[Nuance]

i am right in the middle of re-building my system around my HT2-TLs to incorporate dual subs. i will (hopefully soon) be getting a parasound P-7 preamp which will allow me to do 2 channel bass management and also incorporate my HT system. i will be getting dual 15" rythmik subs - my hope is that they will be perfect for music and also give a pretty good punch for HT (i could always run them a bit hot for movies if needed but i'm not sure i will need to). add in an antimode to smooth out the 2 channel bass and that's my plan. i have a feeling it will work out well, i will give a little  mini report (not my usual 3 page affair  ) when i get it together.

That sounds like a fantastic setup.  Well done!  I look forward to your report (I too prefer long posts ).

[Nuance]

Terry, just get a Parasound P7.  Come on, you know you want to!

[bigbwb]

Terry,
Thats right, I forgot the preamp has HT bypass just not enough bass management to help out.  I understand now, thanks for clarifying.  I had similar troubles with the towers.  I also was not able to achieve as flat a room response as I did with my previous sierras.  With the towers running full range all the time now, EQing the sub was tougher.

Can you ellaborate on what you meant about the duals collapsing your soundstage?

Thats too bad the the SM didnt work out (unless or course it was behind the couch).  I also wonder as you do if any sub will fix the issue.....hmmm.  All you can do is buy more subs to try

I hope either way, you get things dialed in to your liking!

B

My story is much more complicated than I have time to type out.  I'll tell you all about it when we have our GTG.

I'm struggling with sub integration, yes.  But the issue is not my preamp.  The preamp I'm running does have HT-bypass (I'll NEVER go without that!), but it doesn't have any bass management or high-pass filter.  I have used a few different high-pass filters, but they all seem to degrade the sound to some level.  The one that degrades the sound the least (which actually sounds very good) has a very shallow slope that is not enough to pull a bass peak I get with my HT2-TLs completely out of the equation.  I'm working on that...

The Submersive is my problem.  I don't completely understand why, but it doesn't work well or measure well in my favorite spot.  My previous SVS's measured and performed great there, with my PB13-Ultra working so great that I didn't have to use anything more than it's built-in single band parametric to get a flawlessly flat response. 

This is when Patrick loaned me his Submersive so I could try duals.  This did not work well at all.  The subs work together and EQ pretty well, but they collapse my sound stage and make the overall tone seem thick.  Dual Submersives is pretty damn fun for HT when running them hot.   However, I'm a music first guy, so I don't care how fun HT is if the music isn't sounding its best.

In desperation I moved the Submersive behind my listen position (very close).  Now this thing sounds freakin' perfect for music.  As a matter of fact, I can't tell it's back there at all.  The bass is very defined and punchy.  The sub also measures perfectly there and I could go without any EQ if I wanted.  The problem is that you just can't sit 2 feet from a sub that powerful!!   Two 15" drivers and 2,400wrms is just too much that close to you.  I don't like my couch moving around that much! 

So I'm moving on from the Submersive.  I'm hoping that going to at least a single 18" LMS with some serious power will measure as good as my previous PB13-Ultra did.  My theory is the front firing driver gets located in a good position to sound and measure well vs. the dual opposed design of the Submersive.  I've seen many people get them to work perfectly in their rooms, but I sure can't do it unless it's near-field. 

I hope I'm not screwing up by selling it as it does perform fantastically behind my listening position.  So well, that I'm wondering if ANY sub on my front wall will touch the sound quality.  Once you hear something "better", it's always so hard to settle for anything "less."  I guess I may be about to find out.

(This is the short story...I have more... )

[bigbwb]

Terry, just get a Parasound P7.  Come on, you know you want to!

B.
Thats exactly what I was going to post before you did.....we all liked the parasound 2100 sound, maybe Terry would like the P7's sound even more plus it has more bass managment adjustments.  I would totally rock one if I could swing it!

[nyc_paramedic]

Right--I think that's why God created subwoofers.

And also why Clint Eastwood said "A man's got to know his speaker's limitations".

He did say that, right?