[floobydust]

 Jim,

 Ouch... regarding the Carina's output power and the lower sensitivity of the F120A. Just looked at the specs.... 1.5 watts in triode mode and 3.5 in UL mode... a bit over 3dB in difference. Not all that attractive an option considering.

 Take a look at the diyaudio tubes forum:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1638855#post1638855

sorry for the cross linking... bad me.

 Anyway, it's a small chat about a booster amplifier. This might be an option. Build a small booster amplifier that the Carina could drive for increased output power. If done right, you may wind up with something pretty nice. A pair of 6B4G in push-pull could yield around 15-watts output and still keep a nice triode sound. Just a thought... something else to ponder over the long weekend.

 Regards, KM

[jrebman]

Kevin,

Yes, and there's the Pass F4, but the problem is that I am severely space and money constrained.  My rack is 27" wide by 16" deep by 18" tall and only 2 shelves, and everything has to fit on that.  I actually did that on purpose so I couldn't collect gear for collectability's sake.

Well, what will be, will be, whatever that is.  Too many variables to even ponder right now.

-- Jim

[floobydust]

 Yes... probably a good move to limit growth as this stuff can pile up over time (I know all too well). No idea if there's some additional potential hiding in the Carina with a swap of output tubes... but Eddie would certainly know. But... like you said, more listening and some weekend pondering.

 Regards, KM

[chrisby]

Kevin,

Yes, and there's the Pass F4, but the problem is that I am severely space and money constrained.  My rack is 27" wide by 16" deep by 18" tall and only 2 shelves, and everything has to fit on that.  I actually did that on purpose so I couldn't collect gear for collectability's sake.

Well, what will be, will be, whatever that is.  Too many variables to even ponder right now.

-- Jim

Indeed, I had an opportunity to listen to exactly this combo on the weekend, with Hornshoppe Horns - the Carina and F4 play very well together; I can only imagine that the F120As would love the F4 at least as much.     

The F4 is on loan for at least another 2 weeks, and I hope to get a lot more listening in.  While playing last night with the Foreply/Paramours/Fonkens and HempAcoustics Brynns, I re-read Srajan's review - man when he get's going, "looks like we're not in Kansas anymore, Toto"

 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt6/f4.html


but damn, after about 3 hours and a bottle of Cab/ Shiraz, if some of it doesn't start to make sense

[jrebman]

Well, Chris, you've heard the Carina on the Fonkensteens -- do you agree with my findings?

The other issue with the F4 is that it gets mighty hot, and would be way too much in this small room.  That said, I've heard nothing but great things about it.

-- Jim

[floobydust]

Kevin,

Yes, and there's the Pass F4, but the problem is that I am severely space and money constrained.  My rack is 27" wide by 16" deep by 18" tall and only 2 shelves, and everything has to fit on that.  I actually did that on purpose so I couldn't collect gear for collectability's sake.

Well, what will be, will be, whatever that is.  Too many variables to even ponder right now.

-- Jim

Indeed, I had an opportunity to listen to exactly this combo on the weekend, with Hornshoppe Horns - the Carina and F4 play very well together; I can only imagine that the F120As would love the F4 at least as much.     

The F4 is on loan for at least another 2 weeks, and I hope to get a lot more listening in.  While playing last night with the Foreply/Paramours/Fonkens and HempAcoustics Brynns, I re-read Srajan's review - man when he get's going, "looks like we're not in Kansas anymore, Toto"

 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt6/f4.html


but damn, after about 3 hours and a bottle of Cab/ Shiraz, if some of it doesn't start to make sense

  Hey Chris,

 So how much of this was "influenced" by the red?

 I did solid-state design work back in the 70's.... yea, a long time ago, I know. Built some decent stuff too, but I eventually went back to tubes. I also did some hybrid stuff in the 80's... and left it there. There are some truly superb components available today, especially in the passive arena... needless to say, I'm all tube at this point, sans my Mytek and Apogee mastering converters... I have a tough time listening to much digital, but these units are excellent. Still, Nelson does some amazing things with silicon... have to respect that!

 Regards, KM

[DaveC113]

Jim, I thought you were going to use the 30.2 for the f120s?

[jrebman]

Dave,

That's exactly what I'm doing now.  But I also want *a* tube amp to work with them too.

I can't have both the Horns and fonkens in the office too tight, and I'm not the kind of guy who's going to be moving speakers around all the time.

The Horns are getting picked up any minute now to get veneered and finished and will be in the living room with the Peachtree amp when they return.

-- Jim

[jrebman]

New day, new info.

Looks like I had a flakey connection and/or pair of ICs, plus I replaced the 6dj8 with a bugle boy.  Significantly better today.  No, still won't punch you back in the chair when the tympani is struck, but all the goodness is there.  The final decision will have to wait until I can run it high passed and take the load off the bottom end.  Everytime I've done this in the past with a SET amp, the results have been rather striking, and given the superb power supply design of the Carina, my guess is that it will be easily as good, and probably a lot better.

BTW, I've been testing under worst case conditions -- triode mode, 1.6 watts.

Dynamics aren't in the same league as the 30.2, but it would be ridiculous to expect that, however, tone is really, really nice, and I can only imagine that more break-in time on both the Isabellina and Carina will only improve things.  They both have a long way to go.

Of course it probably won't be until next year sometime when I can try the high pass arrangement, but I'm happy with the options I have now.  I just really love EL84s

A much happier Jim today.

[chrisby]

  Hey Chris,

 So how much of this was "influenced" by the red?

[/b]

Excellent question! In the "spirit" of scientific investigation, several more extended sessions with a incremental application of various relaxation agents might be required. 
 

edit:  on re-reading your question, did you mean my "understanding" of Srajan's prose, or enjoyment of the amp? I know I could listen for days, but with all respect to "Sir John" I'm not sure I want to re-read the review too many more times.

 I did solid-state design work back in the 70's.... yea, a long time ago, I know. Built some decent stuff too, but I eventually went back to tubes. I also did some hybrid stuff in the 80's... and left it there. There are some truly superb components available today, especially in the passive arena... needless to say, I'm all tube at this point, sans my Mytek and Apogee mastering converters... I have a tough time listening to much digital, but these units are excellent. Still, Nelson does some amazing things with silicon... have to respect that!

 Regards, KM

A couple of years ago, I built one of the mini-aleph "kits" sold through the group buy at DIY audio.  Although inspired by one of "papa's" freely dispensed circuits, these two bear little sonic similarity. The F4 is simply a chameleon, while the aleph had a distinctive character that didn't work for me. 

Rather like the Wright Mono7 being the first 300B SET I could live with (not perfect by any means, but simply musical), the F4 is only the second* SS amp I've heard in the last 5 yrs about which I could get excited.

*the first being a Gary Pimm design - excited would be an understatement, it would be very easy to use an anatomical analogy to describe the experience sitting in his living room this spring and listening to Carmina Burana

[chrisby]

New day, new info.

Looks like I had a flakey connection and/or pair of ICs, plus I replaced the 6dj8 with a bugle boy.  Significantly better today.  No, still won't punch you back in the chair when the tympani is struck, but all the goodness is there.  The final decision will have to wait until I can run it high passed and take the load off the bottom end.  Everytime I've done this in the past with a SET amp, the results have been rather striking, and given the superb power supply design of the Carina, my guess is that it will be easily as good, and probably a lot better.

BTW, I've been testing under worst case conditions -- triode mode, 1.6 watts.

Dynamics aren't in the same league as the 30.2, but it would be ridiculous to expect that, however, tone is really, really nice, and I can only imagine that more break-in time on both the Isabellina and Carina will only improve things.  They both have a long way to go.

Of course it probably won't be until next year sometime when I can try the high pass arrangement, but I'm happy with the options I have now.  I just really love EL84s

A much happier Jim today.

Jim, from my recent session with Frank's Horns & the F4, I know that the Carina in triode is a treat for sure, but have you tried the U/L?  I honestly found it far less objectionable than I was expecting, and compared to the FE126, the F120A could certainly use all the extra slam you can deliver. 

 

[jrebman]

Chris,

I have tried it with the Horns, and yes, it's a lot better than other UL amps, and even quite nice.  Still not quite triode though, and in this small room, for most of the music I listen to, I'm still only at about 1:00 - 2:30 on the dial and it's plenty loud.

My guess is that when the v-caps settle down UL will be even better than it is now.  One thing I really love about this amp is the choices of voicing available with a couple flips of switches.

I just got done listening to a flamenco guitar piece that left me speechlessly elated.

I'll say it again -- I love EL84s!

Chris, I know you were concerned if these would live up to my expectations when I got them, but they've actually exceeded them, and by quite a bit.

-- Jim

[chrisby]

Chris,

I have tried it with the Horns, and yes, it's a lot better than other UL amps, and even quite nice.  Still not quite triode though, and in this small room, for most of the music I listen to, I'm still only at about 1:00 - 2:30 on the dial and it's plenty loud.

My guess is that when the v-caps settle down UL will be even better than it is now.  One thing I really love about this amp is the choices of voicing available with a couple flips of switches.

I just got done listening to a flamenco guitar piece that left me speechlessly elated.

I'll say it again -- I love EL84s!

Chris, I know you were concerned if these would live up to my expectations when I got them, but they've actually exceeded them, and by quite a bit.

-- Jim

to quote Dave   

 


Have you experimented with rolling different output types, or are you waiting for the V-Caps to fully settle in ( late next fiscal quarter, I'd guess  )?  I'm determined to justify a new quad of TAD's for my little P/P amp, which has more than a touch of Eddie's karma under the hood.   

[floobydust]

 Chris, Jim,

 First, so glad everyone has enjoyed the F120A... so much more than meets the eye from the Fostex camp. Still my favorite Fostex driver (that I've heard in person)... despite my set not sporting any racing dots. I plan on building a new set of enclosures for mine once I get back.

 I think Chris does need to experiment with various amounts of "red head reducer" for listening sessions... and yes, not sure you need to read any more 6moons... use your own ears, they seem to work fine.

 I think everyone needs a pure tube signal path, no hybrid stuff (a digital front-end if you must). But.... you really need to hear a nicely done 45 all triode amplifier to drive these little guys... I know... 2-watts isn't much, but if you're able to enjoy the Carina with 1.6-watts, the 45 amp (my design delivers 2.25-watts) should certainly be a winner. My 2A3 amps are next on the build list, another 3dB of headroom.

 Chris, TAD?? Is that the Chinese brand of tube? Are they a tad bit over-rated? Where is the factory in China?

 Regards, KM

[andrewbee]

TAD?? Is that the Chinese brand of tube? Are they a tad bit over-rated? Where is the factory in China?/quote]



Shuangang tubes from China relabeled is what I have been told.

[jrebman]

The TAD EL84 STR is designed in Germany by TAD (The Amplifier Doctor) and made under contract by Shuguang, and is not the same as the generic TAD EL84, which is the relabeled version.

-- Jim

[chrisby]

Jim - yup that's the one I was thinking about for my EL84 amp

Kevin - your "budget"  2A3 rebuild scheme is still on my project list (as I have matched pairs of glass on hand, it makes the most sense) - I'm just awaiting transformers from Bud P. 



 

[floobydust]

 Jim, Chris,

 Just an FYI... a matched quad of the TAD EL84 STR on ebay... buy now price of $64 from wholetonemusic, so not that expensive. Just not sure on some of these new wonder tubes.... ESRC is selling NOS US made 6BQ5 tubes for $20 each... maybe worth looking into. I know that RCA (if they have those) did source from Mullard back in the day... so luck might even be an option.

 Chris, as Bud is making your iron, be sure to have the primary wound for 3.5K. I also like the flexbility of an 8- and 16-ohm secondary (the D5nf is a 16-ohm driver). I've done a ton of testing with over 30 2A3 tubes (all NOS) and I tend to get 4-watts minimum... the better ones 4.5-watts and very low distortion, generally less than 0.5% at 1-watt.

 I think you're retrofitting a pair of existing amps, right??

 Regards, KM

[jrebman]

Yes, and it's about the same price, maybe even a bit less at cryoset.com.  Eddie V. highly recommends these tubes.  I have about half a dozen of them here and will be trying them before long.  I'm running a set of the mullard re-issues now and want to give them a listen through the remainder of break-in on the amp, then I'll start rolling.

My Tap-X just arrived -- several days ahead of schedule, so I may have to rearrange things and get that in the system now.

My arms are getting sore after all the gear swapping of the last week .

-- Jim

[floobydust]

 Jim,

 You're having too much fun... better relax this weekend. Also found the STRs cheaper... Mike at KCA NOS tubes... I've bought from him many times... good guy, knows what he's doing. Some prices are quite high for certain bits.

http://www.kcanostubes.com/products/510/TAD-EL84-6BQ5-STR.htm

 Regards, KM