[Quiet Earth]

Whatever 

[hatehifi]

20q posted that this is a bedroom system and he's not 'ready' for tubes.

IMHO the amp is the strongest link in a hi-fi chain. Just for fun, I bought the Ampino and MiniWatt despite already owning Gryphon and Atma-Sphere. My suggestion for an Ampino was even more supported as 20q writes, "maybe a First Watt," (I've enjoyed Nelson's sound for +30 years). Srajan (6moons) and I share the opinion that the Ampino's sonic thumb print compared to this brand is very similar. My personal aim in this hobby is a system that is not sensationalist - better than real. The Ampno and MiniWatt are very good at this (irregardless of price), though not seriously challenging my references in terms of absolute.

Zu's Credenza benefits for my personal taste too much from a sub (and any sub slower than a Zu -95%- would be a big mistake) to consider in a different context unless the furniture happens to be right already (sideboard high enough and against the wall immediately in front of the bed). Also, there were so few made you may have hard times finding one (and then, one with a color to match the decor?). I'm reiterating... Go for an Essence if within your budget, or a newer or older Druid IV. You won't be missing accurate bass (if proper attention is paid in following set-up directions) irregardless of volume.

BTW, redundant, my cables suggestions are spot on as well the DAC source and if anybody out there has heard the HRT Music Server+ USB DAC and believes there is something 'better' (not more unreal), then please PM me. I'm serious.

[JLM]

For quiet rock with solid state in a small room:

1.) You're right you don't want forward sounding equipment, avoid horns

2.) In a small room avoid open baffles, dipoles, bipoles (they take too much space to "work")

3.) Most rock does lots of bass, but only down to around 60 Hz

4.) Keep in mind that higher speaker efficiency is almost always traded for added colorations

5.) Lack of deep bass does allow for smaller, more efficient designs

6.) Very highly efficient speakers can reveal subtle system noises (that drive some listeners nuts)

7.) I'm a speaker guy, by all means you're right to pick the speaker first

Frankly rock at low volumes is almost the easiest genre to shop for.  First, you almost never hear it live and without electronic reinforcement, so you can only compare your system/room to temporarily setup professional sound reinforcement stuff in an arena (hardly a fair fight).  Secondly, most rock has extremely little dynamic range as it is recorded with FM playback in noisy/busy settings in mind.  Third, the number of performers and the frequency range of their instruments are relatively small.  I'd look for at least 90 dB/w/m efficiency speakers that perform well at low volumes.

I also use a Channel Island Audio VMB-1 chip amps that Chad mentioned (unfortunately no longer made  ).  But chip amps are still out there.  Audio Zone built some of the smallest/slickest/best sounding ones.  But beware, tons of guys build these out of garages and the chip design is very sensitive to RF interference (I tried one that picked up the local FM station), strong/clean internal power supplies, and the exact circuit design.

[hatehifi]

For quiet rock with solid state in a small room:

1.) You're right you don't want forward sounding equipment, avoid horns

2.) In a small room avoid open baffles, dipoles, bipoles (they take too much space to "work")

3.) Most rock does lots of bass, but only down to around 60 Hz

4.) Keep in mind that higher speaker efficiency is almost always traded for added colorations

5.) Lack of deep bass does allow for smaller, more efficient designs

6.) Very highly efficient speakers can reveal subtle system noises (that drive some listeners nuts)

7.) I'm a speaker guy, by all means you're right to pick the speaker first

Frankly rock at low volumes is almost the easiest genre to shop for.  First, you almost never hear it live and without electronic reinforcement, so you can only compare your system/room to temporarily setup professional sound reinforcement stuff in an arena (hardly a fair fight).  Secondly, most rock has extremely little dynamic range as it is recorded with FM playback in noisy/busy settings in mind.  Third, the number of performers and the frequency range of their instruments are relatively small.  I'd look for at least 90 dB/w/m efficiency speakers that perform well at low volumes.

I also use a Channel Island Audio VMB-1 chip amps that Chad mentioned (unfortunately no longer made  ).  But chip amps are still out there.  Audio Zone built some of the smallest/slickest/best sounding ones.  But beware, tons of guys build these out of garages and the chip design is very sensitive to RF interference (I tried one that picked up the local FM station), strong/clean internal power supplies, and the exact circuit design.

20q PM me if interested - I'm out of here. Reading the above, and not just the a/m post but mostly the rest as well is the reason why. BTW, I own an RWA and it far from turns me on (maybe I'm loco) compared to the Ampino. My RWA Sig30 is up for sale if anybody wants to PM me. If you read Zu's specs and take them up on their 90-day audition, you'll find that their speakers do not confirm at all #4 (and the rest of what I've read here and, as we say in Germany, "Tschuess!"....

[chadh]

The best amplifiers for low to reasonable volume levels (i.e., up to 85dB sound pressure level) are tube rectified, single ended triodes that use a single output tube.

Get the best SET amp you can afford. Speaker selection comes after that.

I'd respectfully disagree with this statement (although this may be a result of differing definitions of "low" volume levels).  As I posted earlier, I currently use a SET amp, which I truly love.  But my experience is that it needs to be playing at a decent volume in order to produce its magic.  This is also a comment I've seen made by many when discussing SET amps. 

At low volume levels I found my old chip amp/gainclone a more dynamic and involving option.  It's not that the SET amp is bad - it's just that the chip amp generated such a clear and dynamic effect with such a tiny input that it never needed a lot of volume to suck me into the music.

Chad

[jk@home]

Recently I had a discussion with the designer/manufacturer of the speakers I used (the first time, after the fact I bought them used, not factory direct). Asked him what he recommended amp wise for my speakers, and he said the Virtue Audio digital amps.

Of course in my first post here, I was entertaining getting that amp, before I went the Bottlehead route.

No regrets with Bottlehead, but I guess I need to try a digital amp in my system.

[Quiet Earth]

I currently use a SET amp, which I truly love.  But my experience is that it needs to be playing at a decent volume in order to produce its magic.  This is also a comment I've seen made by many when discussing SET amps. 

Huh, I've never heard of that before. Which amp and speakers are you using? I've discovered that some  single driver speakers like Omegas crave a little power to sound their best, but that's not the fault of the amp. For example, the 8 inch max hemp is based on a pro audio driver, and those are really designed to crank for tone. I know mine sound better at louder volumes. But other speakers that I use don't have that problem.

Class A SET devices are super linear voltage amplifiers. They do all volume levels well within their useable range and that's why everyone wants to put one in the output of a DAC or a pre amp. There's nothin' better for music.

Here's something else to consider. A little character goes a long way. For low volume to be so compelling, you want a clear and detailed presentation but a little character helps too. SETs have character. They have tone, color, and body, and they have great presentation. That doesn't mean that they are distorted. It means that they are the best tool to deliver real music to the room at a reasonable volume level. If you want to look at oscilloscope plots instead of listen to music then sure, get a push pull or a solid state amp. Plot away!

I have a cheap radio shack sound level meter and I consider anything averaging over 85dB to be loud. 75dB is quiet. Hopefully that is more clear. So, to get a somewhat efficient, simple two way speaker to play in that volume range would take less than one watt. Most SETs will be in linear amplifier heaven at that power level, so I don't know what the big deal is about worrying about distortion or having to turn it up. Maybe a little compression is compelling to you with the speakers you are using. That's not a terrible thing actually. Compression used judiciously is OK with me. 

Want the best sound but afraid of tubes? I don't get it. I would much rather have a simple SET amp than a room heater like the First Watt. There would be less heat, less waste, and better sound. (Remember, we're still talking about low volume and a reasonable speaker in the room.) Anyone here ever change a transistor on the fly? The most catastrophic failures that I have ever had to deal with involved changing the output transistors in my power amps. Changing tubes is easy and fun too.

[chrisby]

Gee,  is this devolution into polemics gonna help 20q on his quest,  or send him to the local Best Buy for a Bose Lifestyle system of some sort?


20q - do all the research you can,  but sooner or later you need to invest the shoe leather or automotive fuel actually hear some of these systems. Unfortunately with the rise of direct sales and the dearth of demoing dealers, this is easier said than done.

When you ask for advice on a forum like this, you'll always get more than you asked for - not all of which will necessarily clarify things. 

[Quiet Earth]

20q - do all the research you can,  but sooner or later you need to invest the shoe leather or automotive fuel actually hear some of these systems.

I thought that went without saying, but yep, sure enough.

[DaveC113]

I would go single driver / SET for sure. Omegas do well at low volumes, but I haven't really auditioned any other sd speakers at low levels to compare. At medium to loud (85-100 dB) levels, the Omegas compare favorably to any other speaker anywhere close in price and do a great job reproducing guitars, electric or acoustic.

There's nothing to be afraid of with tubes, a well built amp is very simple and reliable. A SET like you'd want will only have a few tubes anyway. You do need to spring for one with good parts, especially the trafos, so it won't be cheap, but $800 to $1k is realistic, up to a few k for something more high end.

[chrisby]

20q - do all the research you can,  but sooner or later you need to invest the shoe leather or automotive fuel actually hear some of these systems.

I thought that went without saying, but yep, sure enough.

except that things that go without saying are not always understood as intended

[20q]

In my opinion this discussion is going just fine. What I wanted to avoid was talking strickly to biased dealers who had only the viewpoint of whatever it is they sell. There are pros and cons to everything in audio and I'm looking for a setup that would excel in my situation. I'm not ready for tubes mainly because I like the idea of a consistant sound that also doesn't require that I need to buy more tubes when they burn out.

Most important to me is to hear the majority of the range of music. So I'm shopping for that first. Then after I have the speakers I can take them to a dealer to try out the various amps in order to see what sounds good on that speaker. I don't believe any dealers near me carry any tripath amps so I'll try the tubes there and if I like that sound I can go with a class D or T amp that is said to have a tubelike sound.

I've appreciated the different viewpoints and things to consider. It fills in the peices to this puzzle. Hatehifi brings up a good reason for wanting to avoid matching a sub to a high efficiency speaker. I've looked into the Zu Druid IV and it seems like a great choice with it's higher than everything else sensitivity rating and it's got better bass than the Credenza. JLM's general truths are helpful. This is the kind of information that can help me narrow down the possibilities further.

[doug s.]

if you can fit zu druids into your room, it must not be that small.     i like these speakers, but since detail seems to be the one area they are only "ok" in, i think i would want something w/more detail in a low-level listening situation. 

i really think you should consider the horne shoppe horns mentioned earlier, if you can place them into the room corners - they take up little space, and the bass fills out quite nicely when they're in corners.  i can't believe that, at $400, they are still awailable.  if i wasn't awreddy owerloaded w/speakers, or if the seller was interested in a trade for my dillon ego's, i'd be all over them.  these would be prefect w/a gainclone type amp, imo.  and, tho not super-efficient, at 94db/1w, they are efficient enough.

and, re: using a sub, i must disagree that it would be hard to blend  - w/the horneshoppes, or any speaker, for that matter; especially the way you want to use them.  when listening at low levels, it would be easy to up the wolume as needed, to account for good ole fletcher-munson...

ymmv,

doug s.

[howburger]

I have read a lot about the different passive transformer pre-amps recently. I guess pre-amp may be a misnomer here, as there is apparently no amplification but is a volume control through a transformer rather than resistors, preserving the dynamics and purity at low volumes. Here are a several links to get started. These have my thoughts on high end audio possibly changing directions.

http://www.promitheusaudio.com/tvc.htm

http://www.diyhifisupply.com/catalog/74

http://www.soniceuphoria.com/

http://www.bentaudio.com/index2.html



Harold

[JLM]

You might ask Dusty of Channel Island Audio (below) of his opinion of transformer based passive pre-amps (note that he sells his own passive pre-amps that don't use transformers).

The trick to getting passives to work is selecting the right interconnects that carry the signal beyond the passive.  My experience is that the high frequencies can be very noticeably dulled.

My solution (in my single source system) was to use stepped attenuators (simple in-line volume controls that go between the interconnects and the power amp).  Search for Scott Endler.

[konut]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the most important consideration in low SPL enjoyment of music, and swamps all the equipment choices: a quiet room. Source, preamp, and amp will all be at levels where the noise floor will be waaay below the hearing threshold. Almost any will do, as any competently designed components will have flat frequency response. I agree with JLM on all the points about speaker selection. What you're looking for is a single driver design that excels at articulation and is reasonably linear. The Alpair line of drivers come to mind, and a google search will yield info on that front. I would also recommend the Nuforce Magic Cube in aiding articulation and sound stage retrieval with any speaker/amp combo.

Please take some time to research room treatments to tame any resonance, echo, and base mode problems, as well as isolation info. I knew a guy who went so far as to install Dynamat as well as double sheet-rock, special windows, and doors for his entire listening room. It was startling just how quiet the room was, and only called attention to itself by the fact that one never really noticed how noisy most rooms are, until you REALLY listen, by comparison.   

[JLM]

Good point, I must be guilty of taking my audio mancave for granted.  At first it was almost spooky quiet/isolated (but I got over it  ).  But frankly the biggest advantage is just having a room to yourself so that you can listen when you want, even if it's too small or too square, or all hard surfaces, or not isolated at all.  At least you can choose what you do and when you do it.

IMO speakers are the most important factor, followed by the quality of the recording itself and then the room.

[rockadanny]

My system at low volume never satisfied, regardless of equipment changes (speakers were constant). When I switched speaker cables from Cat5 twisted (DIY) to Straley's Reality cables I was then able to listen at low volume. Prior to the Reality cables the sound was closed in, and freqs. shunted.

[howburger]

I agree with the requirement of an isolated and treated room. I've got double 5/8" drywall walls and ceiling with Green Glue between the layers, caulked to the floor, room treatments, and an exterior sealed door. It easily was the most effective money I've ever spent in search of Audio Nirvana. In comparison to that effect, the differences between components is splitting hairs.

Harold

[smccull]

I'd like to add on to the vote for single driver speakers. When you take the crossover out of the equation, you vary from flat frequency response, but in its place you get back loads of "presence" and especially at lower volumes. I've owned Zu Druids (very, very nice, but the tweeter started bothering me after a bit, somewhat metalic sound" and Omega MaxHemps (there are days I wish I had these back, though they're a bit rolled off at the top end). Today I have Supravox field coil drivers, which I sadly have for sale because of a new baby in the house, in a DIY JE Labs open baffle, but they give the best of both worlds and are easy to dial in because of the variable current that can be added to the field coils. Lots of options on the market, but ultimately my vote would go to Omegas or something DIY. Don't get me wrong, the Druids are very, very nice, and have the presence factor, but you may find the HF to be a bit metalic. YMMV, that was my experience.