[jtwrace]

Let's be fair, okay?

Thanks,
Jim

OK.   

.......

Class D amps are not taking the world by storm, although they are good for car stereo.  What Mr. Clark needs to do is take the time to go to a well established Hi-Fi show, to emerse himself in what is out there as it will allow him to really hear first hand what it all sounds like.

[zybar]

it is possible to have tube gear extremely transparent - yust as transparent as solid state, w/o sounding at all like solid state.  good tubes has some soundstaging cues that i have never heard from solid state.  and detail in spades...  if you think tubes cannot be as transparent as solid state, or that making tubes sound "transparent" means making them lose what is nice about tubes - i.e.: making them sound like solid state - then you haven't heard what good tube equipment can do in a system...

regarding making pepsi taste like water, that would be a huge improvement, imo.  but, then again, i haven't drunk soft drinks in 30 years - i prefer water!   

doug s.

Great post Doug.   

Nobody who hears my tube based system (Atma-Sphere preamp and amps) thinks it lacks in detail and transparency.  Yet it also excels in soundstage depth and dimensionality in a way that few ss amps can do. 

BTW, I would love for the Hypex Ncore based amps to be everything people are hoping for.  While I love my tubes, they produce a lot of heat and use a lot of electricity.  If the performance level was close or equal to my Atma-Sphere gear I would switch in a heartbeat.

George 

[medium jim]

jt:

So you don't think Rclark wouldn't benefit from exposure to as many systems as possible, like he would at a big hi-fi show? I know I would? I also gave a honest account of my first hand experience with class d, which echo's what others have said.

Again, let's be fair!

Jim

[jtwrace]

jt:

So you don't think Rclark wouldn't benefit from exposure to as many systems as possible, like he would at a big hi-fi show? I know I would? I also gave a honest account of my first hand experience with class d, which echo's what others have said.

Again, let's be fair!

Jim

IMO we all benefit from as many legal life experiences as possible.   

You gave a first hand experience with a certain brand.  I wouldn't stereotype the topology that way if you haven't heard the good one.   

BTW-this was before you joined from another AC member.  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=95588.msg1055880#msg1055880

[medium jim]

jt:

I read the thread in toto before I posted, so my join date is immaterial. You still haven't addressed why you felt the need to single me out when many others have also voiced their opinions who haven't actually heard the ncore?

Want to respond?

Jim

[Freo-1]

There is no “free lunch” when it comes to reproducing a clean signal from the power amp to drive speakers.   There is a very good reason a very well respected amp designer like Nelson “Papa” Pass has a large cache of mostly Class A designs available.  As Papa says: “Class A amplifiers sound better”.   It takes energy to get the best possible sound.

Engineers have been trying to tackle the amplifier efficiency problem for generations, with some success.  The various topologies of Class AB, Class B, Class D, Class H, etc. are all attempts at getting more output power to the speakers while drawing less from the electrical source.  For example, engineers at NAD, Luxman, Carver, Soundcraftsman all have a scheme where there are different “voltage rails” that switch when a large power demand is made on the amp by the speakers. 

While these are all neat engineering tricks from the minds of clever people, they are not perfect.  The downsides of these various approaches are that they involve some “switching” of the amplifier to create and transfer the waveform to the speakers. Class D without question has a lot more switching going on than most other topologies.  A linear power supply will help this out some, but certainly does not eliminate them.  The amp design itself works on switching, so they will always be there.

I’ve listened to a lot of Class D amps (I also owned a Rowland Class D amp for a bit), and to me, they all fall short of true high fidelity reproduction.  They remind me of a upper range mid fi AV receiver.   The Class D amps I’ve heard to date have a much different sonic signature from something along the lines of a Papa Pass Class A amp, for example.   That’s not to say that at some point they catch up and become indistinguishable from a good Class AB amp, but do not think they are there yet.   My personal preference is Class A solid state, followed by tube amps.

Now, some folks will obviously disagree with this, and that is fine.  We all have our preferences on sound reproduction, and what one person overlooks a particular aspect as a non issue, another person will dislike that same aspect of the reproduced sound.  (E.G. Vinyl vs. High Resolution Digital Audio debate). 

Here is link regarding Class D sound: 

http://www.hificritic.com/downloads/Class-D.pdf

[Rclark]

Pass labs got beat too. 

you guys should do your homework before you weigh in, this is not same old story, this is game changer.

[Freo-1]

Beat on what aspect?  Marketing hype maybe, but not actual quality.

[Rclark]

Tell that to the guy who compare it to his Pass amp, an Aleph. 

Seriously, go read that thread. It's worth your time.

[medium jim]

Beat on what aspect?  Marketing hype maybe, but not actual quality.

+1

[Rclark]

Where's the marketing? I haven't seen any ads yet have you 

[maxwalrath]

Rclark have you heard one yet?

[Rclark]

Wouldn't I have mentioned that by now if I had? 

 just smart enough to want some, that's all.

[maxwalrath]

Have you ordered yet? If so can you share your design/chassis plan?

I want to try them too btw, just waiting to see what chassis and parts etc people are using & having success with. And for a few more reviews. I don't think people here aren't curious about the product, they're just doing their homework. Frankly as much as I am excited for it, we have all been down this road too many times with the be-all-end-all hyped products & technologies around here. At the end of the day, whether it's battery power, ob designs, the latest class D amp, or whatever...not every product thus far has worked for everyone. To believe in your heart that this is that product is fine, but the cautious people here aren't flat-earthers quite yet.

[Rclark]

There's a user there who has a group buy going for this really beautiful chassis. I'm going to get in on it.

 I'll order the amps once they've got batches ready to deliver. I don't like paying for something that isn't ready to ship.

[roscoeiii]

How can we really weigh in on how it compares to a Pass without having listened to it?  Pass certainly has great designs that pair well with many speakers. And I don't recall is the ncore comparison is with a Pass itself or a DIY clone (a very important distnction. Rawson clones for example don't hold a candle to Pass built First Watts IME).

And we should all know by now that proper speaker matchingis key too. The Aleph I had sadly wasn't a good fit with the speaker I had at the time, but other First Watts were stupendous.

Like any other amp ncores will have strengths and weaknesses (hopefully more strengths than weaknesses)  and will pair more or less well with certain speakers.

Bring on the ncore reviews as opposed to sweeping generalizations about classes of amps.

[maxwalrath]

There's a user there who has a group buy going for this really beautiful chassis. I'm going to get in on it.

 I'll order the amps once they've got batches ready to deliver. I don't like paying for something that isn't ready to ship.

"In wk18 we will have again stock. Indeed we are delivering the NC400 & SMPS600 based on paid orders we have received." - Jan-Peter at Hypex. So it sounds like you can place the order now, and it sounds by the excitement that if you wait til week 18 when new modules are released, they could be just about sold out.

[Rclark]

@ roscoe
It was an Aleph J. Pass wasn't even close to the most expensive compared.

These things don't have a "sound", that's kinda the whole point, and why they're cool.

[maxwalrath]

It was an Aleph J.

These things don't have a "sound", that's kinda the whole point, and why they're cool.

I've heard that before. Like I said above...
Frankly as much as I am excited for it, we have all been down this road too many times with the be-all-end-all hyped products & technologies around here. At the end of the day, whether it's battery power, ob designs, the latest class D amp, or whatever...not every product thus far has worked for everyone. To believe in your heart that this is that product is fine, but the cautious people here aren't flat-earthers quite yet.

And I am saying that as someone who is actively looking into building the Ncore.

[srb]

I don't know if the Hypex Ncore is a superior Class D implementation or not.  A percentage of the buyers of the new modules are sophisticated audiophiles and DIYers and have existing UCDxxxHG amplifiers and other well-regarded Class A and A/B amplifiers, so comparisons will be forthcoming.

Channel Islands has built a successful (for a small company) amplifier line based on the UCD modules and has happy users, some who have also owned other well-regarded Class A and Class A/B amplifiers, so it is a viable technology for some.

I'm not naive, foolish or jaded enough to believe that no further innovations or future improvements are possible with Class D technology.  Hype?  Possibly, but let's wait and see what it may or may not deliver.

Steve