AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: danvprod on 6 Feb 2017, 11:01 pm
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...that parts express has the NEO-3s back in stock. Basically here is where I am at. I have been wanting to pick up a pair of Super Vs for years. I originally wanted to build, but with the P-Audio drivers going out of stock, I've started to look elsewhere.
I listened to the LX521 and fell in love with the way those sounded, but really wanted something that would work with my Decware 4-watt Mini Torii (which the LX 521 would not work with, obviously). I also wanted to avoid the DSP for the same reasons Danny has mentioned in the past (a good DAC costs 1k, or 2-3k for a high-quality DAC, so a $500 8-channel unit can't really compete with a well-designed passive XO.)
So I'm pretty much all ready to pull the trigger on a pair of used Super Vs, but also now considering the NX-Oticas with separate OB subwoofers.
My room is about 16'6" x 14'x6" x 9' tall and I just wonder if doing the separates would give me more flexibility in the future. At the same time, with 4 watts, the 97 dB efficiency of the Super Vs and the appeal of a single speaker in my relatively small room still appeals.
I suppose I should follow my gut and go with the Vs, but I've read all the build threads on the NX-Oticas very much intrigue me.
Thanks for listening to me think out loud.
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I have Neo 3's in stock for the NX-Otica. And I have more being made for this year. So I guess I better get the design up on the website pretty soon.
You will have fun with the Super-V's. So either way you can't go wrong. And there have been a few pairs for sale in the used market this past year. And the 97db sensitivity is the advantage there.
The four speaker set up will give you a little more flexibility of placement. And the drivers in the NX-Otica are more accurate and more refined (detailed). And while the sensitivity is not 97db it is not far off at 94db. So you can easily drive them with those single digit amps. I am still driving mine with a little single digit chip amp.
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I feel like the Super Vs will rock, for sure. Something about a 2" compression driver that just seems to "get it right" in presentation of material from 500 Hz - 18/20 kHz. Even if the measurements of my current speakers look better on paper than my older JBL 2445J 2" CDs in a big tractrix horn, they CDs sounded better to my ears.
I was looking for details on your crazy line arrays, too, today Danny -- the ones you did for Serenity Audio? with the Neo 10s and Neo 3s. Sorry for the OT, but the quad speakers does give me that upgrade path in the future, too. Build 2x12" or 3x12" right now, plus either MTMs or NX-Oticas and then in a few years upgrade to the full line arrays.
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AKLegal has both the Super V's and the NX-Ottica MTM's paired with dual 12's in h-frames.
Post 68 may interest you, later in the thread he says they are contining to get better. I found similar with my NX-Otticas, they took a long time to open right up but once they do :thumb:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=143221.60
jay
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Thanks, Jay. I have seen that thread and that post. I do like the MTM on 2x12 build idea. It is sort of the best world. This paragraph keeps me considering the Super V, though:
"The Super Vs are not totally outclassed though. There is just something special about them that I can't put a finger on. It may just be due to the Coaxial configuration which immediately integrates the sound from the mid and tweeter. You never get the sense that you are listening to two drivers. This especially comes in handy for those of us with smaller rooms. The Super Vs hit very hard and are a very addictive listen."
This is sort of a good representation of my room. It's pretty small and with the Super Vs, I'd have them out of the wall a bit more than is pictured here. So I'd be listening pretty close, where the co-ax would seem to have an advantage.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157499)
I go back and forth between the speakers in this arrangement vs. on the long wall with my desk against the windows. I do need to think about treatment, too, but that is a whole other discussion.
Just curious, what is the total price of the 2x12 kit (with flat packs and amps) and MTM kit (with flat packs)? Just benchmarking against a used V. And I guess, what do I loose by not adopting the lower mid woofers of the NX-Otica and going with the MTM arrangement? I suppose the woofers need to play up a bit higher to meet the cutoff of the MTMs. I know the Oticas play down to about 70 Hz if memory serves me.
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I haven't heard the NX-Otica, but do have a pair of Super-V's that I bought used - they're a great buy when you can find them. In an adjacent room I've got a pair of N2X's (Neo3 tweeter) playing and can stream simultaneously to both systems and able to compare the 2 speakers. Prior to the Super-V's I was using Salk HT3's with the ribbon tweeter.
In the past I associated fidelity with high end detail and accuracy, this is what I strived for and it became the holy grail in terms of upgrading equipment - the Salk HT3's did this very well but need gobs of power to drive them . When I bought the Super-V's I stopped listening to detail and equipment, and just listened to the relaxed musical presentation coming from them - maybe this is the 'can't put my finger on it' that make the Super V's so magical? When I listen to the N2X's I do hear more high end detail, but still prefer to go back to the Super V's for musical enjoyment.
Not sure if this helps or not or adds to the confusion? Anyway, it's a vote for which ever of Danny's creations you choose.
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Thanks @Philistine. That is useful.
Very cool that you are preferring the Super Vs to the HT3 (6.5k). I really like the idea of "relaxed musical presentation" that is what I am going for.
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My listening position is 8' in front of the NX-Oticas which are on top of dual 12" servo subs. The music does not sound like it is coming from the individual drivers or even the individual speakers. It sounds like it is coming from the entire front wall..
The full size NX-Oticas (which are floorstanders) play down to 60Hz. The MTM (monitor) version cross around 100Hz. Either are going to dial in very easy with the A370 servo amps. Even the Wedgies, which cross at 200Hz, are easy to integrate with the subs.
A lot of the conventional wisdom concerning sealed or ported subwoofers has to be set aside when dealing with OB subs, especially servo controlled OB subs. These subs can play up to 300Hz and I know from experience they can blend seamlessly up to 200Hz. Even crossing at 200Hz they disappear rather than localize like you would expect based on sealed/ported subs.
You can expect the subs on the Super-Vs to behave the same way which makes sense considering they are the exact same subs. I can't speak for the mid/tweeter section of the Super-Vs sine I haven't heard them.
Mike
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Either way you will end up up with high performance on a budget.
Rocket Ronny
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Agree, either way I am going to be in good shape. I'm not a great woodworker, so getting a nicely designed and finished Super V is appealing. If I did the flat-pack MTM and H-Frame subwoofers, I'd likely be going with a basic DuraTex finish (which is not necessarily a bad thing either).
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AKLegal has both the Super V's and the NX-Ottica MTM's paired with dual 12's in h-frames.
Post 68 may interest you, later in the thread he says they are contining to get better. I found similar with my NX-Otticas, they took a long time to open right up but once they do :thumb:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=143221.60
jay
Yeah, and the more they open up the more I like the NX-Otticas better. I think the only thing the Super Vs do better is large scale dynamics. However, I wouldn't be sad if I had to go back to the Super Vs.
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I went ahead an ordered 4 of the 12" Servo subwoofers today. I figure that is a good life decision either way I go :D
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Congratulations. Watch out for the Duratex, it goes on great but I let some dry on my laundry room sink and it's still there 3 years later :duh:
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I went ahead an ordered 4 of the 12" Servo subwoofers today. I figure that is a good life decision either way I go :D
Congratulations! The 8 ohm version, I presume?
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Yes, went with the 8 ohm versions.
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Congratulations. Watch out for the Duratex, it goes on great but I let some dry on my laundry room sink and it's still there 3 years later :duh:
Yep, cleans up easily with water while still wet. After it dries, forget it :cry:
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^^ get that mini ginder out !!
Congratulations! The 8 ohm version, I presume?
Congrats danvprod :thumb:
Only thing guys need to be aware of with the 8 ohm versions is that you don't have the triple upgrade option unless you go with 6 new16 ohm woofersrs. If that's definitely not an issue, no biggie but with audio & upgrades ....
jay
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Thanks, Jay. You can't do the triple, because 3 drives in parallel is too-low impedance for the Servo amps? Is that correct? Really couldn't imagine getting triples in my small room, but hey you never know.
My current strategy is to get a used pair of Super Vs. The ones I was looking at were missing the woofers. The Vs have pretty good demand on the used market, too, and I think I would be able to try them out and sell them for about as much as I buy them for, should I want to go for the NX-Oticas. I think having the single cabs are going to work better in my room.
I'll keep everyone posted and get some pictures once I get everything set up!
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Yes, 3 of the 8 ohm versins drops the impdence too low, 3 of the 16 works fine. The actual impedence of the woofers is lower than the actual rating ( I think the 16's are closer to 14 while the 8's are closer to 7 ? )
jay
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This is exactly why I got the 16 Ohm drivers. There's a little voice in the back of my head that occasionally says "It's not that expensive to add another pair" ignoring the cost of the cabinets. :P :roll:
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So I'm starting to think about room treatments too. Can anyone point me to a good resource as to what would give me the biggest bang for the buck for the Super Vs in my space. I think I will end up keeping the arrangement shown in the model above. I have some heavy-ish drapes that cover the window behind the speakers.
I always see what look to be large diffusor panels in the pictures that Danny posts. Are those a commercial product or something custom designed? I was thinking a pair of bass traps in the corners behind the speakers would be good as well.
I'm talking about these treatments, for example:
https://i2.wp.com/i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/sthull/RMAF2011/IMG_7214a.jpg (https://i2.wp.com/i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/sthull/RMAF2011/IMG_7214a.jpg)
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Tube traps in corners are always a good thing, I have used them for years. And you can make your own using pipe insulation, sheetrock end caps and an acoustically transparent material for covering.
Shakey
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I always see what look to be large diffusor panels in the pictures that Danny posts. Are those a commercial product or something custom designed? I was thinking a pair of bass traps in the corners behind the speakers would be good as well.
I'm talking about these treatments, for example:
https://i2.wp.com/i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/sthull/RMAF2011/IMG_7214a.jpg (https://i2.wp.com/i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/sthull/RMAF2011/IMG_7214a.jpg)
Dave Elledge was having those made.
My homemade tube traps: http://gr-research.com/foam.htm Don't miss the story at the end.
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The folks at GIK Acoustics have been helpful and their products are reasonably priced.
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Thanks for the link to the tube traps, Danny.
Thanks for the idea on GIK, mlundy57. I sent them an email as well. We'll see what they say.
Here are some measurements of my old system in the room (JBL 2226 in ported enclosure, 2445 2" CD in 350 Hz Horn). Waterfall and XO measurement.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157649)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157650)
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Dan,
I am assuming you will be buying one of those Super Vs here on audiocircle? After living with my pair for a few weeks now and getting them dialed in, all I can say is that you will be very happy. I have owned quite a few well known and much more expensive speakers in the past and the Super V pushes all my buttons. Can't say enough about these.........
Shakey
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Thanks, @Shakey. That's definitely a useful review. They pair you purchased are very nice and I am glad you are happy with them. Yes, I am considering one of the used pairs that are available on AC that are within driving distance.
Hopefully it all works out!
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These came yesterday...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157834)
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I too enjoy when GR Research packages arrive. Going with the NX-Oticas and Triple H-Frame servo subs.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158028)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158037)
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I always see what look to be large diffusor panels in the pictures that Danny posts. Are those a commercial product or something custom designed? I was thinking a pair of bass traps in the corners behind the speakers would be good as well.
I'm talking about these treatments, for example:
https://i2.wp.com/i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/sthull/RMAF2011/IMG_7214a.jpg (https://i2.wp.com/i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/sthull/RMAF2011/IMG_7214a.jpg)
Word on the grapevine is Dave (P.I. Audio) will shortly (finally!) have a website makeover completed which will include information on ordering these panels for anyone interested in them.
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Word on the grapevine is Dave (P.I. Audio) will shortly (finally!) have a website makeover completed which will include information on ordering these panels for anyone interested in them.
I looked at the P.I. diffusors, as well as GIK's version (for use on the wall directly behind and about a foot from my head), and it appears the GIK's are effective to a lower frequency than the P.I. Does anyone have experience with both?
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I moved my room around today to reflect the new position that the setup will be once I get my Super Vs. I can do this now that I got my small desk and got rid of the big desk that was filling up my room before. It's hard to see but this is going to be the view to the Vs from my listening position. My desk is right off the right side, just out of the frame. Speakers are 7' from each other, and I can listen from 7' away as well. This is the configuration of the model I posted a couple of posts back (but with the corners of the speaker out 4'9" into the room.
Also hung new pictures, which I like.
I am planning on eventually installing two corner bass traps (likely I will build ones like Danny has posted earlier in this thread) on either side and some diffusion somewhere, at least at first. Eventually I'd like to treat the sideways as well.
As an aside, this is the first time I've had my Decware DFR-8 speakers out this far from the back wall. They are sounding the best I've ever heard them! They are still for sale, no one has bit on them yet, however. They need to go to make way for the Vs.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158390)
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Love the nice clean look of the room, and the symmetry. My new room is perfectly symmetrical, which makes getting left-to-right balance and imaging a snap.
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Dan,
If you are building your own Super V and not buying used, how did you source the discontinued P Audio driver?
And on another note, I have found that the Super V, at least in my system, needs to be listened to a little farther away than any other speaker I have had in this room. Things can get a little sharp if you sit too close. Just my experience.
Shakey
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@Shakey -- I am buying used. The pair I am buying was missing the woofers, so I had to purchase them directly from Danny, new. 7' is going to be the max I am going to be able to get from these guys in my room, otherwise they are going to be too close to the back wall.
The ones that I am getting also don't have the Jupiter cap upgrade, which I think helps a bit with the forwardness (at least that is what I can gather from Danny's threads). I know that room acoustical treatment will be imperative too.
One of the nice things about the MT Decware amp is a "treble shunt", which can be dialed in via a pot (or taken out of the circuit altogether). This allow you to shape the upper regions to make up for overly bright speakers or room issues (which is currently my issue -- at least with the current decware speakers).
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My room is ~15' x 26' and I have mine a little over 7 ft. into the room. I tried them closer to the back wall, but they really opened up at this distance. I hope they work for you, sounds like you have a much smaller room.
Shakey
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Yea my room is 16' x 14' with a notch out behind me for the door and closet.
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Updated room model (with LS6, not Super Vs, as no one has made an easily findable model of the Vs that I could see). Experimenting with some treatments behind the speakers. A pair of 7' tube traps and some diffusors. Speakers and chair are now in position they are in the room (7'x7'x7' triangle; 4'9" from wall, 3' from sidewall).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158415)
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That looks good. It's a small room though so make those tube traps big and thick. Smaller rooms tend to need more absorbing material.
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My room is 13'-6" wide and 25' long.....the back 7' is taken up with stairs down and a small bar area, err, I mean equipment storage area... :wink:
When I started down the road of O.B. it was with Dannys V1.
I had them in my smallish living room ....14' x 17'....with vaulted ceilings.
They sat in there with big plush coaches and chairs (and really didnt have a right sounding as good as they did)
until my room was finished being built (former 1 car attached garage)
I placed them in the naked room with only 2 chairs and a coffee table as a gear stand.
I'll never forget just how crappy they sounded in that bare room....it was so bad I barely
used it.
I did a bunch of internet reading to see if absorption or diffusion was needed on the wall behind the
speakers. I came to the conclusion that I needed diffusion, some people REALLY disagreed with me.
A bunch of PMs later and I just stood my ground.
I built 4" absorption panels (Rockwool) and placed them on first reflection points on walls and ceilings.
I built corner traps, bass traps and even a panel over the diffusor to remove corner reflections.
My room is set up like yours(window on front wall behind speakers) I simply covered it with the panel and diffusor.
I'll never forget the dramatic change that came about using these treatments....I was always listening now.
My first front wall diffusor was a poly, my second was a QRD that I built from styrofoam coated with thinset.
The room was better than ever, I upgraded the V1s to Super Vs and was very happy.
What I'm getting at is I would consider covering the window with a poly or QRD of some kind.
Keep the bass traps (although I would make them bigger) and consider either absorption panels
or more diffusors(personal preference) at first reflection points.
I only give this advice because your room is so similar to mine, and your using the same Super Vs
that I had in my room for all those years, and I was/am VERY happy with the results.
Good luck!
Perry
P.S. you can just see a slip of the window in this pic.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm170/PDRCanada/zzzz4.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/PDRCanada/media/zzzz4.jpg.html)
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Perry, do you prefer Rockwool to Owens Corning 703? I need to put up some absorption on the wall behind my listening position. Behind the speakers (dipole panels and the OB/Dipole Subs) on the opposite wall I'll be using diffusion.
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Perry, do you prefer Rockwool to Owens Corning 703? I need to put up some absorption on the wall behind my listening position. Behind the speakers (dipole panels and the OB/Dipole Subs) on the opposite wall I'll be using diffusion.
Cant say, I've never used Owens Corning 703 for audio.
I've used a lot of different types of insulation for work, the semi rigid Owens
could get pricey if you need a lot.
A bag of Roxul Safe n' Sound goes a long way.
I can tell you that if you are using panels, leave them away from the
wall. Mine are 4" thick and stand out from the wall about 3".
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Thanks, I'll check it out.
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Someone has 4 of these posted for sale locally, do you think they would be a good idea for my corners?
http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-soffit-bass-trap/ (http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-soffit-bass-trap/)
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Someone has 4 of these posted for sale locally, do you think they would be a good idea for my corners?
http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-soffit-bass-trap/ (http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-soffit-bass-trap/)
I would jump on those if I were you.
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Super Vs are here! I ended up purchasing the pair that @Hal had for sale. Took the drive up to him and now they are set up in my listening room. I also had a chance to hear @Hal's amazing line arrays.
I'll plan on getting everything dialed in tomorrow, but for now I plugged everything in and had no hum coming through the woofers.
Getting the new woofers mounted in the pre-built Vs was an exercise in patience for sure, navigating around the NoRez.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159025)
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Glad it all worked out and you are getting them dialed in. :)
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Those look awesome! Congrats......... :thumb:
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Looks great. Congratulations! :thumb:
Shakey
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Congrats! I recently installed woofers, and I can see how that would have been tricky with no rez installed.
Looking forward to your input on the sound.
Ben
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More pictures
[1] Better shot of how they look in my room
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159082)
[2] Profile showing the maple burst finish on the side panels.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159083)
[3] Close up of wood on side panel.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159084)
[4] Rear of Super V
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159085)
[5] Crossover close up
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159086)
[6] Woofers and wiring harness
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159087)
[7] Decware MiniTorii amp with line level outs to power the sub amps
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159088)
[8] Sub amp settings -- still tweaking bass level, but had to turn down quite a bit to match output from my 4 watt amp.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159089)
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Looks good. Just a suggestion though. I was using line level inputs to the sub, but I switched to the high level inputs and the sound is MUCH improved. You should try it and see what you think.
Shakey
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Interesting @shakey. I wonder why that is? I will try that as well.
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Amazing how much bass these H-frames put out. Just in awe. First track from Neil Young's Le Noise has some serious power. They are speakers made for rock for sure. Need bass traps though, definitely need some bass absorption bad.
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Amazing how much bass these H-frames put out. Just in awe. First track from Neil Young's Le Noise has some serious power. They are speakers made for rock for sure. Need bass traps though, definitely need some bass absorption bad.
Well part of the reason for me is that my preamp at the time didn't have an extra output, so I had to use a splitter. Then the impedence of the sub amp is added to the main amp. I think my preamp didn't like that. It's much, much better using speaker level. And it's easier to get the sub blended with the main driver this way.
Shakey
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Ah that makes sense. I fortunately do not need to use a split on my main amp as it has a separate line level out that is tied to the volume control. And is passes through the same tube preamp stage of the amp, which is giving the plate amps the same sonic signature as the mains (also a good thing). I haven't done any measurements yet, but they seem pretty to integrate.
I did get a pair of the fMod line level passive HP filters, but I don't see any way to make those work with my amp without a splitter. It would be nice to free the amp from having to reproduce those low frequencies, but I don't know what trade off is better (run the tube amp full range and use the line outs to the plate amps, giving the plate amps the same tube sig. as the mains) vs. getting the extra power out of the tube amp. I'll play around with it.
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Gorgeous speakers man 8)
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Thanks @Captainhemo.
For those who have painted the magnets on the front 12" subwoofer black, what paint has worked well for this task? I likely will end up doing that.
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Do you intend to pull the woofers out to paint?
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I'd rather not, since the screws are just going into the raw MDF and I don't want to keep pulling them in and our. I was thinking of just masking the magnet and painting the front-facing silver metal so that it doesn't show through the grill as much. It's not a showstopper, just something I was thinking about.
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In addition to taping, you can stuff some newspaper in the opening. That will keep any over-spray off the NoRez as well.
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Thats exactly what I did, masked around the magnet then used newspaper to cover all the rest.
I used Tremclad rattle can, gave it 3 light coats.....after I stripped the sticker.
Its darker than shown here....looked very good when it was completed.
Perry
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm170/PDRCanada/xop12-1_zps8beb2a4b.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/PDRCanada/media/xop12-1_zps8beb2a4b.jpg.html)
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I used Tremclad rattle can, gave it 3 light coats.....after I stripped the sticker.
Perry
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm170/PDRCanada/xop12-1_zps8beb2a4b.jpg) (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/PDRCanada/media/xop12-1_zps8beb2a4b.jpg.html)
Tremclad is great stuff, it will stick to anything and you can actually get a pretty decent finish with it
jay
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These Super Vs really are amazing. For sure the best speakers I've had in my room and I'd say performs as well as speakers I've auditioned that cost many times more than these. And this is with the woofers still not broken in. Pretty amazing what Danny has been able to do here. I'm quite impressed. These sound every bit as good as the LX521 (which I had considered as an alternative to the Super Vs) and have the distinct positive of being able to use any low-powered amp you'd like for the mains and no DSP, which is a + in my book.
I'm seriously in awe here of just how good these sound.
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Instead of painting, you can just attach some black felt with double-sided tape, cutting a little hole in the middle for the vent. With the grille in place the felt will be invisible.
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These Super Vs really are amazing. For sure the best speakers I've had in my room and I'd say performs as well as speakers I've auditioned that cost many times more than these. And this is with the woofers still not broken in. Pretty amazing what Danny has been able to do here. I'm quite impressed. These sound every bit as good as the LX521 (which I had considered as an alternative to the Super Vs) and have the distinct positive of being able to use any low-powered amp you'd like for the mains and no DSP, which is a + in my book.
I'm seriously in awe here of just how good these sound.
I am in total agreement. I have owned speakers up to around the 15K mark including Wilsons, Piegas, Green Mountain Audio, Von Schweikert....the list goes on and on. None have been any better and many fall far short of the mark. These are very impressive.
Shakey
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=159979)
Worked on building my new speaker cables last night. Some Teflon Mil-Spec Wire, Silver Plated PTFE 5 conductor 16 AWG per conductor. Twisted together they should be able 9 AWG. Everything is wrapped in tech flex and terminated with BFA connectors.
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Adding in some power line filtering and upgraded duplex.
Audio Prism Power Foundation III:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160911)
Hubbell HBL5262GY 15A 125V Specification Grade Duplex Receptacle:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160912)
Upgraded the power cords on the plate amps and my tube amp to MagicPower:
http://signalcable.com/magicpower.html (http://signalcable.com/magicpower.html)
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New rack installed today. Salamander Synergy S30. Much better than the cabinet I was using previously.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161321)
Still need to get the bass traps and diffusors. Later this year. I went back to some more flexible standard AC power cables vs. the signal magic power cables, which were hard to route from the A370s.
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Looks good Dan. Here are some recent pics of my system with the new amp.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161373)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161374)
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161543)
I picked up those 4 GIK Soffit bass traps. Right now I have two on the left stacked, one on the right, and one behind my listening chair. I can quite stack two high on the right, so I may have to order a custom height from GIK. Do you think this is the right way to place these?
The other option is to hang the one on the right so that it is in the middle of the wall. Third option I had was to put the forth one behind my head at the intersection of the three walls above the door. Room model below is still accurate:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158415)
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Bass traps work amazingly well. Adding the second partial-length trap and the other full length behind my listening chair so help even more. Going to add the P.I. diffusors next in my window and look at some first-reflection point absorption.
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Finally making some measurements of these:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161693)
Subs are set at 180 degrees phase, 80 Hz XO frequency (might be too low). High damping, 14 Hz cutoff, no EQ. Subs might be set too low in cutoff frequency.
This is with the four GIK bass traps in place.
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That's a pretty typical in room response measurement. Not too bad.
If you are going to use the 14Hz extension filter then also try the low damping setting with it.
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These are measurements about 18" from the bow tie, between the P-Audio driver and the sub array. Mainly for doing level matching between channels, since I seem to notice on some tracks the center image being pulled towards the right speaker (could be my room). They match well. A couple of learnings.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162365)
1) I must really like bass. I love that the Super Vs accommodate what sounds good to me. I don't think I could ever go back to a speaker that doesn't let me adjust the level of frequencies < 100 Hz independently again.
2) I have no idea what the 10 dB dip at 1.8 kHz is. Could it be a reflection from my desk on the right, or some sort of cancellation from the front wall?
3) These are really the first speakers that have sounded excellent in my room -- I know that I have added the bass traps, which also help, but I think something has to do with the extra LF energy, the slight depression between 1-3 kHz and the extension down into the 20s.
4) Maybe my subs a bit too loud right now ;)
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You're going to have to back off to the listening position to really know what's going on with your room response.
Keep doing one speaker at a time and try the subs individually too.
Then a clear picture of what's going on in your room will develop.
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Added some QRDs on the front wall.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162621)
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This is really cool. The imaging issues I had are completely resolved by adding these diffusors. Many tracks, I didn't have a stable, center image, it would be pulled to the right. Vocals would be just enough off to the right to bother me. Now I'm getting a solid center image. It's a subtle, but definitely perceptible improvement to the soundstage.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164319)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164320)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164321)
I put a spatial audio black hole on my back wall to deal with my axial mode at ~ 41 Hz. It works quite well and complements the GIK soffit bass traps well. It's good for about 3 dB. It also helps with the modal ringing, too, as can be seen by the EDT plot.
I may add another one! And I also plan on still adding the 2 soffit bass traps, and some first-reflection absorbers in a minute...
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Did that dip that you were seeing at 1,8kHz go away?
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It's still there...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164371)
This is with using the PEQs on the plate amps to try and flatten out the ~ 70Hz peak at the listening position.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164372)
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This is left vs. right; only the coax playing, measurement about 1/4" off the dustcap and off-center.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164407)
Green is left, orange is right.
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This is left vs. right; only the coax playing, measurement about 1/4" off the dustcap and off-center.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164407)
Green is left, orange is right.
I'll help you figure out what is making that dipped area on the right side and get you balanced out.
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Thanks, Danny! Will continue this convo over PM...
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The thought process behind diagnosing and fixing an issue like this would be very informative. I've recently learned how to use REW to see what is going on but knowing what to do about it is another issue entirely.
Mike
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Mike -- just in the interest of troubleshooting this in this thread, at Danny's suggestion, I tried the following.
1) Swapping the left and right tweeters, to see if the dip followed the tweeter or if it stayed with the speaker. Measurements would indicate that the dip indeed followed the tweeter.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164414)
2) With original configuration of tweeters (L on L speaker and R on R speaker), I disconnected the mid-bass drivers and measured to see if the dip was still with the R tweeter or if there was a tweeter/mid-bass interaction. Measurements would indicate that the dip is apparent in both configurations.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164413)
Green and red traces are right speaker (with original CD installed on right V). Blue and orange are left speaker.
Other than the dip, the two channels look pretty closely matched. I'd assume that the peaks and dips > 4kHz or so are highly dependent on microphone position; the delta I see between L and R speakers is that 1.8 kHz dip alone.
I'll report back anything else we figure out.
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I didn't see that you posted the same thing here too. I responded to your PM.
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Mike -- just in the interest of troubleshooting this in this thread, at Danny's suggestion, I tried the following.
1) Swapping the left and right tweeters, to see if the dip followed the tweeter or if it stayed with the speaker. Measurements would indicate that the dip indeed followed the tweeter.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164414)
2) With original configuration of tweeters (L on L speaker and R on R speaker), I disconnected the mid-bass drivers and measured to see if the dip was still with the R tweeter or if there was a tweeter/mid-bass interaction. Measurements would indicate that the dip is apparent in both configurations.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=164413)
Green and red traces are right speaker (with original CD installed on right V). Blue and orange are left speaker.
Other than the dip, the two channels look pretty closely matched. I'd assume that the peaks and dips > 4kHz or so are highly dependent on microphone position; the delta I see between L and R speakers is that 1.8 kHz dip alone.
I'll report back anything else we figure out.
If I'm understanding this correctly your troubleshooting would indicate the dip is in the mid-bass driver of the right speaker and not a room interaction, correct?
Mike
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The measurements would indicate to me that there is something up with the right side tweeter. It is not a room issue as these IRs were measured 1/4" from the dustcap.
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I see. The more I thought about it I realized I read your post incorrectly. You tested it tweeter only and tweeter/mid base combined but not mid bass only.
So if it is there tweeter only and does not change when the midbass is added then the issue is in the tweeter.
Or so it would seem.
Mike
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Right the dip is there with tweeter only and tweeter and misbass playing together.
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Would that indicate a bad tweeter or just a mismatch between the two tweeters?
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Perhaps the tweeter's polarity is reversed??
Best,
Ed
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@Ed -- that is what Danny thought as well, but it's not the case. Both tweeters are measuring negative polarity (correct given 12 dB/octave XO) and both mid-basses are measuring positive polarity.
@Mike -- not sure about a mismatch, being that the rest of the frequency range tracks so closely L/R tweeter it is suspect that there is a 13 dB difference at 1865 Hz...
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It also looks like it drops over a couple hundred Hz and climbs back up over the same span.
It seems really odd that it would be so specific and symmetrical. So does the next step of the investigation look at network components or would the network not have any bearing on something like this?
Mike
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@Ed -- that is what Danny thought as well, but it's not the case. Both tweeters are measuring negative polarity (correct given 12 dB/octave XO) and both mid-basses are measuring positive polarity.
Just clarifying, I am referring to the tweeter voice coil polarity and not the crossover circuit polarity. With the V1 tweeter it would be easy to have the wrong color terminal on the tweeter, I believe the Super V will be built in a similar fashion.
Best of luck,
Ed
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Thanks Ed. I used an acoustical polarity signal (speaker pop) and played it through the co-ax (tweeter alone and mid bass alone). And then I put a microphone on to measure the polarity. In both cases (L and R), acoustically they measured negative. Both mid-basses measured positive. I think if the VC was reversed the polarity would be positive, correct?
Dan