AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => P.I. audio group => Topic started by: dBe on 12 Jul 2015, 08:36 pm
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I am starting a new thread here to establish a place where people can post for others about their experiences with the I/Os of electrical power in music reproduction systems.
It was a revelation to me over the last few years about just how much the connectors in our gear, cables and wall outlets effect the SQ of systems. Started when I began auditioning outlets for the BUSSes. I spent a couple of hundred bucks on relatively generic receptacles. When I say relatively generic, I mean those available through commercial vendors for construction, residential through hospital grade and MRI receptacles. Even among those there were differences that frankly just didn't compute until I looked at the different alloys available, the thickness of the contacts and resulting spring tension, housing build and other physical aspects of them. I found good to great receptacles in almost every vendors' product lines, with a couple of vendors products standing out from the general fare. Some sounded loose and farty in the lows and vague in the highs. Some were very tight and controlled, others were great or terrible in the mids. Kind of a stunner to me that there could be that much difference in SQ because of a receptacle or connector, but I could not deny what was going on. Other people came to the same conclusions through their own personal experiences.
That is what I want this thread to be about: an informative, educational group of posts that is oriented to becoming a reference for others to use for system voicing. With this in mind, please limit posts to personal experience and observations. If and when there is a change for the better or the worse in your system because of an electrical connector change please share it here for everyone to see. Include system details because types of systems dictate different types of connectors be used to get that systemic synergy that makes music reproduction special and engaging. As always on this site, there will be no name calling or derision by the inexperienced. Just because we "think" something is true means nothing unless there is empiricism to back it up. The "I read it in a book" argument is not acceptable here. Basis of all of this is a desire on my part to help others to get absolutely killer sound without spending a million dollars trying everything out there, when someone else with a similar system and tastes has found something that works for them. Perhaps it may work for you without needing to reinvent the wheel.
Let the mirth and frivolity begin! :thumb:
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Potential to be a great thread here! There is much debate using different Oyaide connectors in other circles as well, but the information and details are lacking, then the threads get crapped all over. This caused the threads to die, of course... Hope this thread will be taken seriously and remain informative.
I really look forward to what the GTX brings to my experimentation, and will surely post here my findings.
Paul
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Potential to be a great thread here! There is much debate using different Oyaide connectors in other circles as well, but the information and details are lacking, then the threads get crapped all over. This caused the threads to die, of course... Hope this thread will be taken seriously and remain informative.
I really look forward to what the GTX brings to my experimentation, and will surely post here my findings.
Paul
I've Ben getting some interesting feedback via PM, but won't post that content without permission.
Please post your observations to this thread, guys.
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I'd like to gather input from the crowd on experiences with the Neutrik Powercon inlets.
Dave, I don't know if you recall installing the Neutrik on my unit. I figured it would be a nice, sturdy, worry free way to connect power to the Buss. I've certainly had no issues with it, but after hearing so many gush over Furutech FI-50 connectors and such, I just wonder what the differences could possibly be?
I was once exchanging emails with another manufacturer and I told him about the Neutrik inlet, and his response was "that's not hi-fi". Huh?
Rob
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I'd like to gather input from the crowd on experiences with the Neutrik Powercon inlets.
Dave, I don't know if you recall installing the Neutrik on my unit. I figured it would be a nice, sturdy, worry free way to connect power to the Buss. I've certainly had no issues with it, but after hearing so many gush over Furutech FI-50 connectors and such, I just wonder what the differences could possibly be?
I was once exchanging emails with another manufacturer and I told him about the Neutrik inlet, and his response was "that's not hi-fi". Huh?
Rob
i guess my question would be "what IS hi-fi"?
There are times when items are chosen for neutrality. I use the Neutrik connectors upon request because they meet that regimen. The 20A Neutrik NAC3 connectors fit that bill.
OTOH I think that the Neutrik NAC3 32A /250VAC connector is the finest transparent connector available. If by "hi-fi" the person means colored in sound, I would have to agree with him
I prefer to choose my colorations with receptacles and cabling. To each his own.
BTW: if they are good enough for the Audience Adept Response conditioners as well as the other manufacturers that have adopted them, I reckon they are good enough for the BUSSes.
Just sayin'...
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Occasionally I get questions about what are the best materials for electrical contacts. Here is a chart of conductivities for common materials. The materials that we are normally seeing in receptacles are brass, red brass, copper (Furutech GTX), phosphor bronze and beryllium copper (Oyaide), CDA688 aluminum brass )Pass & Seymour 5362A).
Material IACS % Conductivity
Silver 105
Copper 100
Sterling Silver 96
Gold 70
Aluminum 61
Beryllium copper 21
Nickel 22
Zinc 27
Brass 28
RedBrass 37
Iron 17
Tin 15
Phosphor Bronze 15
Lead 7
Nickel Aluminum Bronze 7
Steel 3 to 15
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On a slight tangent, I recently purchased AudioQuest 1000 Series Banana (Silver) speaker cable terminations. They specify "Hanging-Silver directly over Pure Red Copper". Are these adjectives anymore than marketing enhancements to the core silver or copper metal?
Thanks
Kenreau
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On a slight tangent, I recently purchased AudioQuest 1000 Series Banana (Silver) speaker cable terminations. They specify "Hanging-Silver directly over Pure Red Copper". Are these adjectives anymore than marketing enhancements to the core silver or copper metal?
Thanks
Kenreau
The only time I ever saw the expression "hanging silver" was used in conjunction with sterling silver, IIRC. Sterling silver is about 92-93% silver with the balance being other metals, usually copper. Oddly enough its electrical conductivity is ~ 96 which is not quite as good as the native copper. It is there because the oxide of silver is just as conductive as the parent metal and does not tarnish easily. Red copper (Alloy 110) = ETP copper + 99% copper without alloying materials other than what are present in the refined copper. Red copper is what comprises standard copper wire. It is a lot better than brass, but not as fine as Alloy 101 copper which is defined as oxygen free.
I love marketing departments. If you can't impress then, baffle them....
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well, guys - what are the results of installing GTX's in your walls, etc?
:scratch:
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I listened extensively to the Furutech GTX-Gold which was recently installed on my wall. It took longer to break in than I expected, but now it's sounding really good. A tad slower and laid back than the Maestro, but with better detail retrieval and it's cleaner. With well recorded CDs, differences are minimal, but with the remaining 95% of my CDs, the differences are startling. Definitely a worthwhile upgrade. I'll swap out the Gold for the Rhodium in a few days and post the results here.
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I listened extensively to the Furutech GTX-Gold which was recently installed on my wall. It took longer to break in than I expected, but now it's sounding really good. A tad slower and laid back than the Maestro, but with better detail retrieval and it's cleaner. With well recorded CDs, differences are minimal, but with the remaining 95% of my CDs, the differences are startling. Definitely a worthwhile upgrade. I'll swap out the Gold for the Rhodium in a few days and post the results here.
Cool. :thumb:
I think I can predict what you will post re: the rhodiums....
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There is no doubt Furutech makes a great outlet. But the gold are way too soft for me. I think I might order 2 Rhodiums today. The leading edge and sparkle are gone with the gold. Pretty boring.
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I've had the rhodium in the wall since last Monday, replacing a Maestro. The outlet was burned in already.
The improvement in detail was immediately obvious from note one. Not hard edged detail, but natural detail accurate and true to the recorded event. This is a neutral outlet. It simply lowers the noise floor and allows you to hear leading edge attack and delineated or gradual decay more clearly, especially on bass notes. Not only are stops and starts more obvious, but the fine harmonics and timbre of instruments between each end of the note. To say I was surprised by this, from an outlet, would be an understatement.
As a metal and hard rock fan, the price of admission would be worth it for kick drums and double bass triggers alone. Clear as day. In my system, bass was the biggest improvement. It doesn't stop there however, but it was slightly less noticeable higher in the frequency range. I don't want to sell it short, because I'm sure someone could disagree with me, but this was my experience. I will also say that there is a smoothness here that the Maestro doesn't have. You'd never know that though unless you compared them.
Drawbacks? None, really. Except I've gotten used to it now and want another one for my Uber to plug my amp into. My system could be described as "musical" more than "detailed", so for me this was exactly what the doctor ordered. If you are teetering on the edge of hardness/sibilance, look at the Gold.
Speaking of the Gold, I have one burning in while it feeds my two plate amps (bass drivers on Hawthorne Trios). I really don't feel like installing it in the wall for a comparison and would rather return it, but I will anyhow and share my impressions for the AC community. Who knows, maybe I'll prefer it.
Rob
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Nicely done Rob! I agree 100% :thumb:
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There is no doubt Furutech makes a great outlet. But the gold are way too soft for me. I think I might order 2 Rhodiums today. The leading edge and sparkle are gone with the gold. Pretty boring.
Give the Gold more time. That was my initial impression, as well, but it takes a while to break in. When it does, it still may be a bit too soft for your tastes, but it's certainly not boring. It's a clear improvement over the Maestro.
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I installed the GTX-Rhodium in the wall which replaced the GTX-Gold. The GTX-Rhodium is magical!
As everyone else has indicated, the Rhodium provides another layer of detail, but it's doing more than that, and I can't begin to describe it. More importantly, it's hard to believe that a receptacle can make such a huge difference.
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Yeah! I have 5 outlets on the back of my conditioner and with any luck 2 will be gold, 2 will be rhodium, and one will be a Maestro. I am targeting the rhodiums when they arrive for the amps and the very front end devices. And the gold for the secondary items. We'll see how that rolls out. Off to France next week so it may take me some time to do this project.
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Not inspiring me to swap the Rhodium for the Gold, Early B!
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Yeah! I have 5 outlets on the back of my conditioner and with any luck 2 will be gold, 2 will be rhodium, and one will be a Maestro. I am targeting the rhodiums when they arrive for the amps and the very front end devices. And the gold for the secondary items. We'll see how that rolls out. Off to France next week so it may take me some time to do this project.
Yeah, I think a combination of the Gold and Rhodium will work well. You'll have plenty of options for determining which components work best with either Gold or Rhodium. Make sure you put a Rhodium on the wall, though.
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Yeah! I have 5 outlets on the back of my conditioner and with any luck 2 will be gold, 2 will be rhodium, and one will be a Maestro. I am targeting the rhodiums when they arrive for the amps and the very front end devices. And the gold for the secondary items. We'll see how that rolls out. Off to France next week so it may take me some time to do this project.
So what changed from your previous comments on the gold being too soft and boring to wanting two of them installed?
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So what changed from your previous comments on the gold being too soft and boring to wanting two of them installed?
If fed by Rhodiums and used on digital gear outlets they might serve a purpose. Otherwise they get the boot. They are lowering the noise level as well so $150 outlets better do something.....we will see.
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Anyone else have any impressions? I'm ordering a Digi-Buss and considering changing my wall outlet so I'd like to hear some more opinions on the two GTXs.
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Anyone else have any impressions? I'm ordering a Digi-Buss and considering changing my wall outlet so I'd like to hear some more opinions on the two GTXs.
I've used both the Rhodium and Gold on the wall and prefer the Rhodium for that purpose. Gold is great for a component(s) that could benefit from a bit of refinement.
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I've used both the Rhodium and Gold on the wall and prefer the Rhodium for that purpose. Gold is great for a component(s) that could benefit from a bit of refinement.
My experience exactly. Everything has its' place.
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What happens when you plug a Gold plug into a Rhodium outlet?
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What happens when you plug a Gold plug into a Rhodium outlet?
The world begins to turn in the opposite direction. And toilet water flushes counter-clockwise.
Actually, I can share what happened when I plugged my amp into a gold outlet in my Uber but had the Uber plugged into a rhodium. I feel like you lose some of the benefits of the rhodium. Things get smoothed out a bit, and so much of what I like about the rhodium gets masked. This isn't bad of course if you feel the rhodium takes you too far in the detail direction, but it's not what I was looking for. I find the Maestro outlets are a better complement to the rhodium.
Based on this little experiment I returned the gold. I was going to try it in the wall, but I heard enough with my amp plugged into it.
Rob
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Very informative thread! There's an interesting article on EnjoyTheMusic posted back last year that included a comparison of the GTX(R) here: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0114/audiophile_ac_outlets.htm (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0114/audiophile_ac_outlets.htm)
It's been years since I toyed with swapping outlets but this thread has me ready to try the GTX rhodium. Any recommendations on where to buy at a reasonable price? (did I just use the word 'reasonable' in relation to a $200 electrical outlet?)
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It's been years since I toyed with swapping outlets but this thread has me ready to try the GTX rhodium. Any recommendations on where to buy at a reasonable price? (did I just use the word 'reasonable' in relation to a $200 electrical outlet?)
Well since this is in the PI Audio circle I would say send Dave a message and I'm sure he could give you a great deal on these Furutech outlets. He goes by dBe here and is the facilitator. (In case you didn't know)
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Tomy2Tone, Thanks for that. I've been a very happy Dave customer for quite some time and should have realized he sells these outlets as well. :duh: And of course, Dave followed up with a PM to me as well. Order being placed tonight.
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I've got 2 unopened Gold Furutechs if anyone wants to trade for a pair of Rhodiums. I already had 2 golds and ordered 2 Rhodiums from Japan and they sent me golds.
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I've got 2 unopened Gold Furutechs if anyone wants to trade for a pair of Rhodiums. I already had 2 golds and ordered 2 Rhodiums from Japan and they sent me golds.
Someone should grab 'em. I have a Rhodium on the wall and today I received a surge protector with a GTX-Gold on it. With only three hours of burn-in, I can say without hesitation that this combo is heavenly.
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Hello,
I received a GTXD (R) from Dave to try out in the wall. This is pre-UberBUSS, and Uber is loaded with FPX Gold Recepts. Also using the Powercon 32A Inlet, and either the Mongo II or Triode Wire Labs 7+ feeding the Uber... Mongo for this first test.
Interesting change! I am getting allot of upper mid energy, but it is not harsh. It is however, a bit on the wear me out side....
Now what I do love about it, is the focus, clarity, and perceived lowering of the noise floor. Very nicely focused presentation.
I do think at present, it has me a bit too tipped to the lacking warmth side though (too clean?), like throwing a Telefunken tube in a modern piece of tube gear, so to speak. I don't at this time believe the GTX (R) is neutral sounding. Not in my system at least. I know, Rhodium takes awhile to burn in, so we'll see what this brings. These findings are the day after putting it in the wall.
I also have a polished 5362A coming to try out in the wall as well. I have high hopes for this one, as I prefer my un-plated HG Hubbell in the wall over the FPX (G) (and GTX (R) at present).
Thanks Dave, and if nothing else, this test has absolutely alleviated my thoughts that recepts can't make "too" much of a difference... Well, in reference to the Furutech GTX, they sure as hell do. Even more so than the power cables.
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Paul79,
I'm curious to hear your thoughts after the GTX-D (r) has settled in. Mine has been in for several weeks but recently I haven't noticed the effects as much as when I first installed... I have no idea if that's just me adjusting to it, or if it actually mellowed out. Keep us posted!
Rob
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Hi-Fi,
Something for you to try.... What recept was you previously using?
Would you be willing to reinstall it and share your thoughts again on the differences?
Thanks
Paul
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Paul79, I was using a Maestro. Not a bad idea, I'll try and get to that over the next 2 weeks or so.
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Oh, I should also mention.... The FPX (G) in the wall is too warm sounding. GTX (R) at present, is too clean, and the un-plated HG Hubbell in the wall is nicely balanced. I just wish it had some of the effects the GTX has that are quite obvious... The lower noise floor, and the supreme focus....
The GTX (R) is not rough, edgy, glaring, that sort of thing.. My system never has this problem. Just a boost in upper mid, and a detachment from the upper bass/lower mid. Hope I make sense.
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Put a few more days on the Rhodium, and it did change. The midbass filled out a bit, but the upper mid is still brutally forward and too prominent. Guess it is gonna be a roller coaster ride for me.
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Put a few more days on the Rhodium, and it did change. The midbass filled out a bit, but the upper mid is still brutally forward and too prominent. Guess it is gonna be a roller coaster ride for me.
It's a one month rollercoaster ride minimum. You might want to consider burning them in outside your audio system as the rollercoaster is not subtle at all... Anyway, you have heard these before in my SurgeX so you should have a good idea of what they will sound like after the ride is over.
For less expensive receptacles the unplated FPX is the way to go imo. No, not nearly as good as the GTX but better than any other hospital grade receptacle imo. Furutech's phosphor bronze is the best copper-alloy conductor I've ever heard. However, rhodium plating on their bronze is a bit on the hot and bright side. Not bad at all, but it's a bit more aggressive vs rhodium over their pure alpha-copper, which I feel is very neutral.
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Right Dave! The Surge never had this issue here... Sounded quite good actually.
More interesting note, I finally caught a glimpse of something quite stunning. Left the system running while working, took a break, sat down for a couple tracks, and it sounded bloody fantastic! Balanced and supremely focused.. Then like a light switch, back to forward detached mid... Oh my. I got the burn in blues going on over here. But things are looking up!!
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Right Dave! The Surge never had this issue here... Sounded quite good actually.
More interesting note, I finally caught a glimpse of something quite stunning. Left the system running while working, took a break, sat down for a couple tracks, and it sounded bloody fantastic! Balanced and supremely focused.. Then like a light switch, back to forward detached mid... Oh my. I got the burn in blues going on over here. But things are looking up!!
Get one of these:
http://hagerman-audio-labs.myshopify.com/collections/break-in-devices/products/frycorder-power-cord-burn-in-generator
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Update on the GTX (R):
Today, the thing sounds bloody fantastic. Balanced, quiet, and UberTRANSPARENT!
Burn in. I'm likely not totally out of the woods yet, but today is a good day.
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Update on the GTX (R):
Today, the thing sounds bloody fantastic. Balanced, quiet, and UberTRANSPARENT!
Burn in. I'm likely not totally out of the woods yet, but today is a good day.
How many hours so far and did you use a cable cooker?
Going to install my GTX-D (R) tomorrow after 7 days of cooking on a Audiodharma Cable Cooker; should be almost there but will settle down after another 7-10 days of use. Can't wait to hear my initial impressions against my Maestro...
Wig :thumb:
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Like I told one of my customers today the rhodium GTX is a lot like a paranoid schizophrenic for about 3 days and then starts to get better and better. It turns from a harp to a siren (no, not like cop cars - like Homer's ladies)
I had really only tried the FPX-R before and I hated it. Then again, I didn't give it enough time.
Who knew a few years ago that a receptacle could make such a difference?
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How many hours so far and did you use a cable cooker?
Going to install my GTX-D (R) tomorrow after 7 days of cooking on a Audiodharma Cable Cooker; should be almost there but will settle down after another 7-10 days of use. Can't wait to hear my initial impressions against my Maestro...
Wig :thumb:
I'm on day 6 now. I left the Sony Hap running, UberBUSS plugged into the GTX (R) as well as my water cooler into the GTX (R).
Made the water too cold and sterile the first few days. (Couldn't help myself ;)
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I'm on day 6 now. I left the Sony Hap running, UberBUSS plugged into the GTX (R) as well as my water cooler into the GTX (R).
Made the water too cold and sterile the first few days. (Couldn't help myself ;)
Bwahahahahahahahahahahah... :thumb:
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I'm on day 6 now. I left the Sony Hap running, UberBUSS plugged into the GTX (R) as well as my water cooler into the GTX (R).
Made the water too cold and sterile the first few days. (Couldn't help myself ;)
As long as it wasn't the Kool-Aid! :green:
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As long as it wasn't the Kool-Aid! :green:
Ther ain't no Kool-Aid in high end audio. Snake oil BS and people that refuse to try and listen, sure. I'm not into sweet and syrupy! :thumb:
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Looking forward to a number of PI upgrades...including a GTX-D(R) in front of my amp's UberBuss. Thanks, Dave, I can't wait...
John
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Looking forward to a number of PI upgrades...including a GTX-D(R) in front of my amp's UberBuss. Thanks, Dave, I can't wait...
John
My pleasure.