HDMI DAC?

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Art_Chicago

HDMI DAC?
« on: 29 Aug 2009, 02:58 am »
I do not know if this topic belongs here or not, but... are there DAC's that accept hi rez signal through hdmi input? It would be handy to have it  :thumb: so no HT receivers are needed at all.

ted_b

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Re: HDMI DAC?
« Reply #1 on: 29 Aug 2009, 03:05 am »
The PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (aka PWD) has a proprietary I2S interface from its Transport (PWT) that is housed in an HDMI implementation...but only for 2 channel music, and only from the PWT to the PWD.  A multichannel HDMi-based DAC is not commercial currently.  Multichannel pro DACs exsist for big bucks, mostly via non-HDMI pro audio inetrfaces (DB25, 1/4" plugs, etc.)

Phil A

Re: HDMI DAC?
« Reply #2 on: 25 Oct 2009, 07:22 pm »
The new APL DAC - http://www.aplhifi.com/DAC1-product-page.htm  has an option for HDMI.  Don't know what it will accept.  HDMI for 2-channel PCM I understand can handle 768k

ted_b

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Re: HDMI DAC?
« Reply #3 on: 25 Oct 2009, 07:36 pm »
AFAIK that DAC doesn't exist.  I don't believe that DAC is anywhere past on-paper stage (where it's been for 4 yrs).  Back in June Alex said he had looked at a few enclosures but nothing worked, and was looking at other DAC chips other than AKM (a huge product dev change).  Do you have newer info?

Phil A

Re: HDMI DAC?
« Reply #4 on: 25 Oct 2009, 08:54 pm »
AFAIK that DAC doesn't exist.  I don't believe that DAC is anywhere past on-paper stage (where it's been for 4 yrs).  Back in June Alex said he had looked at a few enclosures but nothing worked, and was looking at other DAC chips other than AKM (a huge product dev change).  Do you have newer info?

Didn't know it has been there that long.  I remember reading posts by Alex some time in the last year.  I'd guess we will eventually see something.  Perhaps at CES (but who knows what year at this point if it has been sitting there for four years). 

Norman Tracy

Re: HDMI DAC?
« Reply #5 on: 26 Oct 2009, 06:06 am »
Excellent question. To my knowledge there are no stereo audiophile HDMI equipped DACs. I would not expect that to change for the following reasons.

1. HDMI is a closed standard as opposed to an open interface standard like S/PDIF & AES/EBU. As explained here:
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/adopter_registration.aspx
the first step in designing a HDMI equipped device is to sign the non-disclosure agreement and send the keeper of the standard a check for $10,000 (or $5,000 +$1/unit shipped) then you can start designing. For companies like Sony or Denon who are used to sending $250,000 checks to dolby Labs and dts to buy into those standards the $10k for HDMI must seem down in the noise. For the small and medium sized companies in the audiophile niche its serious coin.

2. Once the hardware layer of HDMI is accessed the hirez audio data we are after is wrapped in encryption called High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP). See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection
Before one gets the decryption keys another annual license fee is paid this time to Digital Content Protection, LLC, a subsidiary of Intel. While forking over more dollars one is signing more contracts basically promising the device you put the HDMI hardware and HDCP software on will not be used as a means to hack the content for unauthorized use and if it is your company is responsible for damages. And this is backed up by the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) so if there should be a problem it is not at all unlikely you will be discussing it with federal agents from the Copyright Office. Admittedly much more likely is the other SNAFU the HDCP brings to the party, HDMI handshake issues. As part of HDCP security scheme source and playback devices exchange identity and characteristics and the data is formatted or even shut off in response. The handshaking between devices' hardware and software is notorious for breaking the link in customers' homes.

3. Once the dollars and legal aspects are dealt with the technical side is not so rosy. Plain vanilla HDMI tends to increase clock jitter of signals transmitted over it so more design and parts resources will need to be expended to clean ups it's act. Then there is the operational aspects like what does my stereo dac do if all the data streams coming over the link are multichannel? Play left and right only and let the user wonder what happened to the singer in the center channel or do an automatic mix of center into L & R? Or mute until a stereo signal is on the link? How complex shall we make the user interface to imform you of these issues and support setup options?

And those are just the initial high points of the HDMI minefield. The short answer is its a tall order for companies in the high-end audio niche .

mcallister

Re: HDMI DAC?
« Reply #6 on: 8 Nov 2009, 12:51 pm »
I noticed the new Wyred4sound DAC that should be released soon has an option for an HDMI input. http://www.wyred4sound.com/ something I'd love to have.

ted_b

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Re: HDMI DAC?
« Reply #7 on: 8 Nov 2009, 02:18 pm »
The Wyred4Sound DAC uses HDMI purely as a proprietary vehicle/cable for the I2S (I-squared-S) implementation, same as what PS Audio is doing with the PerfectWave duo.  Some folks live and die by I2S; some, though, claim it is flawed and was simply intended as a inter-chip serial bus (i.e nanometer sized connection on pc board) that carries clock and data via PCM.  Don't know the advantages at a macro (HDMI) level. 

mcallister

Re: HDMI DAC?
« Reply #8 on: 8 Nov 2009, 02:42 pm »
I see yet now I'm confused? Going to have to do some research.

ted_b

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Re: HDMI DAC?
« Reply #9 on: 8 Nov 2009, 02:49 pm »
It's easy to get confused.  Anyway, HDMI is simply being used as a broad bandwidth cable for Wyred (and PS Audio's) private implementation of a connection that is used only for their own transports (not sure what compatibility Wyred is going to announce...their own transport, PS Audio's??).  Most of us would use another connection on that DAC, like USB or SPDIF, cuz we don't own anything that the I2S bus would talk to.

sxr71

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Re: HDMI DAC?
« Reply #10 on: 7 Feb 2010, 09:42 pm »
I'm considering the Emotiva UMC-1. Not an "audiophile" component but it seems promising.