AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: Boybees on 9 Nov 2007, 05:47 pm
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Hello SongTower owners! I just put in my order for a pair in Cherry last night. I was wondering if any of you might chime in with random thoughts, updates, observations, etc. Helps to build anticipation for the arrival of my own pair.
Also, I’m sure Jim wouldn’t mind a renewed SongTower buzz in the forum. aa
Thanks in advance, Dave
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Hello SongTower owners! I just put in my order for a pair in Cherry last night. I was wondering if any of you might chime in with random thoughts, updates, observations, etc. Helps to build anticipation for the arrival of my own pair.
Dave
Congrats on your purchase. I have no doubt that you will love these speakers. I assume you've seen the photos I posted earlier of my cherry SongTowers. I've had them nearly two months now and continue to be happily surprised by them.
I also posted my listener impressions on Audioholics http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36600 (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36600). I intended that article for a somewhat different group of readers than here, but here it is anyway.
One thing that came out of the ensuing discussion was the commonly asked question about how far away from the wall must these speakers be. Dennis Murphy answered that when he placed one ST about 8" away from the wall behind them, and the other 2 feet away, he did not hear any expected bass boominess from the speaker closer to the wall. In fact he said he preferred the sound, saying the bass sounded more solid. I immediately tried it on mine and I confirm what Dennis observed. I urge any other SongTower owners to try it for themselves.
Richard
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Richard thanks for your comments and more extended review on Audioholics. Yes, your pictures were what convinced me to go with Cherry. They also played a key role in the spousal sales pitch . . .
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Well that certainly makes my day! Not unlike other audio junkies, I have a secret fantasy of guiding others from the wilderness to audio nirvana (without compensation of course), sort of like the Lone Ranger of Audio. Praise like that may cause my head to swell to unreasonable proportions.
:thankyou:
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Buzzz. I know that Jim is making every effort to get the ST in front of as many outside "reviewers" as possible. That's always risky, particularly when you're dealing with a speaker that doesn't claim subterranean bass response or omnidirectional radiation or some other special quality--just accurate sound. But you have to take chances in this market. I'm an economist, but I don't think I knew what competitive meant until I got involved in the on-line speaker biz.
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Hi R Swerdlow,
I read your review at the link you provided. Is that true that Dennis Murphy was involved with the JBL L-100's? :o
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I read your review at the link you provided. Is that true that Dennis Murphy was involved with the JBL L-100's? :o
I did not mean to suggest that Dennis was involved in the original design of the L-100s (although perhaps he should have been). I'm sorry if I confused you.
I have an old pair of L-100s that I have owned since 1973. I took them to Dennis for a crossover redesign a little over a year ago. Here is the tale (a long read). http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25014 (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25014)
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Thanks for the clarification. I will read the tale later when I have more time. I have a pair of HT3's coming and I have a good friend that still has his L-100's. (Woofers were reconed and a tweeter upgrade). He would have found that interesting. Maybe he'll enjoy your tale. Sure were alot of those sold.
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Regarding both Dennis' and Richard's comments about how close to the wall the STs can be placed without mucking up the bass, what they've both experienced is, I believe, are the attributes of "TL bass", for lack of a better descriptor. In addition to designing the ML-TL configuration for the STs, I've designed and built 7 pairs of TL-based speakers. The last 3 have all had either a rear-firing terminus (for an 18:1 tapered TL) or a rear-firing port (for two ML-TLs). These speakers have been forced in my house to play very close to the wall behind them, with their terminus and ports ending up anywhere from just a couple of inches to about 8 inches from that wall, and none of them exhibited anything but clean, articulate, non-boomy bass. My latest design, the canTiLena, which Dennis heard at the Iowa event weekend before last, has an F3 of 30 Hz, and while Dennis didn't hear them in my house, he can attest to the quality of their bass sound. I haven't had an opportunity to hear the STs, but I'm quite sure they have really great bass performance, especially considering the size of the drivers used.
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Hi Paul Glad to hear I'm not hearing things. I'm not quite sure why placement is so unimportant, since there is bass coming out of that "port" and you would think you would get some boom somewhere. I guess the TL output has a much lower Q. In any event, I can certainly attest that your TL worked with virtually no boundaries on the large stage at Grinnell. You got top marks from me for bass, and there were some monsters there. It was harder to judge in other areas, partly because the musical source material wasn't very good. I played the CD selections when I got home (on the ST, of course), and wasn't exactly blown away.
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Dennis, was wondering: now that you have the SongTowers, the realization of your design, do you find that they remind you of any particular speakers you have known and loved?
Best, Dave
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Regarding both Dennis' and Richard's comments about how close to the wall the STs can be placed without mucking up the bass, what they've both experienced is, I believe, are the attributes of "TL bass", for lack of a better descriptor.
I'm only beginning to understand just how different and better sounding are these attributes of "TL bass" that Paul K speaks of. Listening to my SongTowers has challenged some of the ideas that I had believed were true about speakers' bass response in general. It seems that what may have been true for sealed or reflex designs is not always the same for TLs. It does get difficult to describe.
Another poster on Audioholics said this about TL speakers in general:
"In a good TL speaker, the bass enhancement is uniform and more extended than for reflex designs. The TLS enclosures do not advertise their bass. It appears effortless and full, with no boom, when called upon by the program material. People who have good TLS speakers, seldom part with them and if they do they regret it.
...a TLS is a highly specialized organ pipe. Like an organ, the port output couples to the room, exhibiting the acoustic phenomenon of encircling. It couples to the room much more uniformly than other designs. Therefore TLS speakers are much less likely to set off room resonances..."
For those who have not listened to properly designed TLs, these may seem like more words praising yet another speaker. Those who have heard the SongTowers (and I assume other well designed TL speakers) are nodding their heads in smiling agreement.
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Dennis, was wondering: now that you have the SongTowers, the realization of your design, do you find that they remind you of any particular speakers you have known and loved?
Well, they do sound quite similar to my CA0W1's, which use the same tweeter and woofer in a bookshelf MT. But the midrange is more open on the ST's, and the bass is much more extended. I've spent a good bit of time comparing the midrange on the ST's with the HT3, and I generally come away confused. Maybe if I had a 2nd HT3 and could listen in stereo, I would have a better idea of what's up. In any event, as good as the 0W1 is, it can't quite compare with the G2 ribbon on the HT3.
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Some people over at The AVS Speaker Forum ran an interesting blind listening comparison of floor standing speakers in the $1000 to $2000 price range. It included favorible comments about one of our favorites. I’ve heard none of the other speakers, and I am interested at what else is available for a generally similar price.
Salk SongTower QWT
Swan Diva 6.2
Acculine A3
Onix Rocket RS850 Signature
Definitive Technology BP10B
NHT classic 2 plus an 8" subwoofer
The entire thread is rather long and rambling. Read it all if you must. The key for me was the listening impressions posted by Nuance who liked the SongTowers. See post #156 (page 6) http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12195175#post12195175 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12195175#post12195175)
He had this to say about the SongTowers:…From the beginning this speaker was very engaging. It had my utmost attention from song 1 and it kept getting better from there. This was the most detailed speaker of the bunch with a midrange that took second to none in the clarity department. Every detail was reproduced but clearer than any of the other speakers so far. Separation of instruments was a cinch. Near the middle of our listening session (perhaps 10 minutes in) I started to feel that this speaker was this engaging because it may have a slight forwardness to the midrange. Whatever it was, I didn’t mind it at all but came to the conclusion that it may not be for everyone (some may get fatigued by it). However, I really did love how every detail was present without having to strain or really focus to hear it. Whether this was an accurate presentation or not, I don't know. What I do know is that I liked it. Moving on to bass: this was the one area that I was a little disappointed in. The bass was tight and fairly balanced, but it didn’t extend low or have that midbass slam that the third speaker did. If this speaker would have had that attribute, it may have won by more than it did (which was just by a hair). My other quandary with this speaker was that they lost some of their magicality when pushed to higher levels. This is when that slightly forward midrange began to overpower the rest of the FR. However, if you don’t listen at reference levels this may not be an issue. Also, when paired with a sub it may be resolved.
I thought most of what he said is exactly as I have experienced, with the exception of the comment about the slight forwardness of the midrange. OK, I also disagree with his comment about lack of midbass slam. I should point out that this listener preferred some other speakers that have four 6.5" woofers in a 3-way vented design. They might produce quite a lot more bass. But I think the sound of the transmission line bass of the SongTowers might be more articulate and would grow on them if they gave it more time.
It is also worth noting that the listening room was rather large, 44'×14', carpeted and had walls of acoustic dry wall with 4" of insulation beneath. And while I am picking nits, it seemed to me that this whole thread had some inbred favoritism towards AV123 products, but then I just might be biased.
And finally, the real reason why I am posting this. See post #205 (page 7)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12200645#post12200645 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12200645#post12200645), where a certain jsalk quoted none other than moi as an expert. In this world you have to grab all the credit you can.
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I agree with that analysis. That is quite a large room and it would lend itself to a speaker that can put out quite a bit of bass. Bass is so related to the room that I think it is hard get a real grasp of how speaker will react as far as bass goes until you get it into your room. There is a reason that so many audiophiles clamor for various treatments and auto-equalization for bass-it is hard to get it just right. I do think Nuance gave a fairly balanced review. One thing I noticed on his review is that he gave the Rocket high marks for "dynamics" and the ST relatively speaking lower marks. This also I would think would be related to listening levels and the size and liveness of the rooms. I am curious how loud people listen.
Here is a question for both Jim and Dennis. When you are auditioning a speaker with lively material, what is the peak SPL's that you hit?
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Hi I've never measured, but I do always test a new design playing Wagner at full cry. That said, I think it's pretty much a no-brainer that a speaker with 2 five inch woofers won't be capable of the sheer sonic impact of one with 4 or 5 units, particularly if they're larger. I don't think I've ever promoted the Song Tower on the basis of its ability to hit 100 dB playing acid rock (which I'm sure happened at the Erie PA event). Now--if you add the SongSub--maybe you could sell it in Seattle.
In any event, I thought Nuance basically got it right. And I can't tell you how refreshing it is to see a review that doesn't automatically award 5 stars to every speaker. Even the best modern speaker is imperfect, and everyone is served best if sellers and reviewers acknowledge that.
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A few observations...
As you can imagine, after shipping a pair of SongTowers to Craig for this blind listening test, I was eager to see the results. I concur with Dennis' comments that the test was conducted in as fair a manner as possible and I thought Nuance's comments were both well thought out, insightful and well expressed.
We shared the stage with some fine speakers by some very respected companies. Mark Shifter, for example, has set a high standard for speaker manufacturers selling direct over the internet. So I consider it a real honor just to be included in a group such as this. The fact that Nuance rated the SongTowers on top, albeit "just by a hair," is just icing on the cake. I could only have dreamt of this a few short years ago.
As for his scoring, the thing I found most revealing in his ratings were the SongTower's top scores in the first four categories (Definition, Continuity of Soundstage, Width of Soundstage and Impression of Width/Depth). Of the attributes judged, I consider these to be the most important.
A number of years ago (long before I built my first speaker), I was talking with an engineer for a very large retail speaker manufacturer. I asked him what it takes to sell a speaker in a retail environment. He told me that when people compare speakers in a retail showroom, they are most impressed with the depth of the bass and the detail in the high treble. The consumer will almost always choose the speaker with the brightest top end and the deepest bass. When I asked him about midrange detail, his opinion was that most consumers will not concentrate on this performance attribute until long after the purchase is made.
There is an often-repeated misconception going around that good music speakers do not make good home theater speakers and vice versa. To the extent that this is true, it is because speaker designers often trade midrange quality for bass extension (there is no free lunch in speaker design). When this is done, intelligibility suffers. And since intelligibility is extremely important in home theater applications (the midrange is where the dialog is), there is an element of truth to the argument. But it doesn't have to be that way. A speaker with great midrange detail and accuracy can excel in both applications.
After years of working in recording studios, I developed a fond appreciation for midrange detail and accuracy. Over the years, all of the speakers I have ever considered "great" have exhibited one thing in common: they excelled in the areas of midrange clarity and detail. That is where 80% of the information is. So that is the first area I concentrate on. If the speaker doesn't have it there, I find no reason to listen further.
I think this midrange-centric focus is readily apparent in all the speakers Dennis and I have worked on together over the years. Granted, I like impressive bass and an exhilarating top end as much as the next guy. But I would never opt for them at the expense of midrange performance. My reading of Nuance's ratings indicate that SongTowers do indeed perform well in this area.
I have a few observations on his comments regarding bass extension.
First, it would have been easy for Dennis to design the SongTowers around 7" drivers rather than 5" drivers. This would have insured greater bass extension. But it would have come at the expense of midrange detail. And as noted above, while it may have increased our scores in some areas, I don't think it would have been a good trade-off (speaker design is all about balancing trade-offs).
Second, we have developed the "SongSub" for those who require bass extension into the low 20's. It is the perfect solution for those who need their fix of deep bass.
Third, as Richard Swerdlow pointed out in an earlier post, TL bass is perhaps a bit more subtle than bass from a ported design. It doesn't necessarily "jump out at you" and probably takes a little more extended listening to fully appreciate.
The fact is, SongTowers have very respectable bass extension. They generate usable bass into the upper 30's which is quite respectable for a 2-way design (those who want more can always look at our HT3's which have usable bass into the mid-20's). At the recent Rocky Mountain Audiofest, one of the most frequent comments we heard concerned the bass performance the SongTowers delivered using 5" drivers. This, of course, is due to the mass-loaded TL cabinet design contributed by Paul Kittinger and based on the pioneering work of Martin King.
One final thought...
A few years ago I often ran across posts expressing doubts that small, internet-direct companies such as ours could possibly compete in terms of sound quality with large manufacturers selling speakers at retail. I see fewer and fewer of these posts today. I think our business model is finally maturing. As Nuance pointed out, "ID (internet direct) really does offer an amazing bang for buck. I would certainly choose the Salk Song Towers and Rocket RS850 Sig’s over the Paradigm Studio 100’s I auditioned a few weeks back. And oh, what’s this? They are quite a bit cheaper too!"
Once again, I would like to publicly thank Craig, Nuance and all those involved. We truly felt honored to be invited to participate.
- Jim
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I for one am tired of not having heard these SongTowers. Why, because of the low low price. I'd love to do a side by side with my 1801s, in the interests of science.
Write a check!! :green:
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I take it you don't live anywhere near Michigan or D.C.
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Brian -
You should relax. The 1801's are great speakers. The SongTowers are as well and it would probably be interesting to compare the two designs. But if I were you, I would simply enjoy the 1801's and save your money for something more important. Of course, we don't make an additional sale that way. But, personally, I would be very happy if either of these designs were the only ones I had to listen to. Just my two cents worth...
- Jim
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Hi Brian,
I had much the same system as you with Ellis 1801s and Van Alstine equipment and, in my opinion, it sounds fantastic. I have the parts to build another Dennis Murphy speaker design, the CAOW1, and just need some time and crossover parts to get it done. As you may know, the CAOW1 uses similar drivers as the Song Tower and should sound very similar.
Dave Ellis mentioned that the CAOW1s give up very little to the 1801s (which is high praise from Dave since he only sells the 1801 parts) so I would think that the Song Towers and the 1801s would be very close noting that both are designed by Dennis Murphy.
In my opinion, the next big jump would be to go to a well designed 3-way speaker like the Salk HT3s (also designed by Dennis Murphy), which would provide more bass depth and presence.
Cheers,
Tom
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I think you're probably right about the 5% estimate. You might recall that I did a comparo of the ST with the 1801A. I was confused. Maybe the ST has a theoretical edge in the midrange by using a smaller woofer and TL loading. But the W18 is probably a lower distortion device. Still, I agree that a comparison would be fun. You just have to find a ST owner near you and spend an hour or two playing. (Hopefully, there won't be any used ST's for sale, particularly at this early date. Of course, Jim has sold hundreds of thousands of them, so you never know. Millions, I tell you.)
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Not that you could do it for the same price as the SongTower, but I wonder what an HT1 would sound like if you gave it a QWTL loading...
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Not that you could do it for the same price as the SongTower, but I wonder what an HT1 would sound like if you gave it a QWTL loading...
It's been done:
http://www.salksound.com/vqw.shtml
Oops... I knew that! :oops:
I guess since it gets the least amount of press and looks different enough from the other Veracity speakers that I completely forgot about it.
Thanks for the reminder!
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Hey Brian,
I can sense that you are looking to have some fun doing comparo's but I also feel your pain about spending that much money for a potentially marginal difference in sound. I will, therefore, help you out and state with absolute certainty that your 1801s are the correct speaker without question for your circumstance. In the interest of full disclosure, however, I have not heard the Song Towers to make any definitive statement comparing the 1801 with the Song Tower. :lol:
Cheers,
Tom
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Brian,
I agree with Jim and Tom that you should keep the 1801's. I haven't heard the 1801's but I did a comparo with HT1's and SongTowers. Since the 1801's are so similar to the HT1's, I trust my opinion. Athough the SongTowers are great speakers, I think the 1801's would easily walk away with the prize on music with natural instuments. On the voice I can see that there would be different views from different people.
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A speaker's inherent quality doesn't differ between voice and "natural instruments." The voice is arguably the most natural of instruments. If a speaker nails that, it will nail anything. Obviously all of this is subjective, and I'm sure everyone realizes this, so no big deal. But I really don't think you're drawing a meaningful distinction. Or, to put it differently, if I thought I had to recommend one of my designs on the basis of voice, and another on natural instruments, I would go back to the drawing board.
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Everyone,
If a guy wants detail, listenability, a smooth top end and I admit to liking mid bass slam a bit. And he listens to everything from Metallica to Samuel Barber, maybe back to back. Usually at low to moderate volumes but sometimes loudly. Does the 1801 or the ST make more sense. Assuming 60 or so good quality tube watts of power a good DAC, a 12x16 room with a high ceiling and speakers along a long wall?
Any thoughts?
I've narrowed my speakers search to a final five both the ST and 1801 are in the running.
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To add to what Dennis mentioned regarding recorded voices through loudspeakers, most people listen to the human voice throughout the day and can discern what a natural voice sounds like versus a recorded voice. If you're fortunate enough to play live music regularly, as Dennis is, you may also be able to easily discern the differences between live and recorded instruments. The more accurate the speaker, the more it sounds live.
I have been in an adjacent room with the Ellis 1801s playing and thought "Wow, it sounds like they are in the next room". Of course, the 1801s sound better when your in the same room.
Cheers,
Tom
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I have one 1801 cabinet at home (I never seem to have two of anything), and I'll stick the drivers and the "B" crossover in it this weekend. I doubt that I'll end up recommending one over the other, but at least I can try and describe the differences and measure the bass performance.
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Obviously all of this is subjective, and I'm sure everyone realizes this, so no big deal.
I agree with you that it is very subjective. Words are very difficult to use to talk about an experience. Different people listen to different things. I could say that the difference for me on the HT1's and the SongTowers was the incredible clarity of the HT1's but one person would think I was talking about the tweeter response and another person would think that I am talking about the midrange woofer distortion!
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Oh--I thought you were talking about Jim's high-gloss finish.