Value of Sonicap upgrade for SongTowers?

newzooreview · « **on:** 11 Oct 2009, 03:30 am »

I just ordered my SongTower RT's yesterday, and I'm wondering if I should go with the Sonicap Platinum bypass cap upgrade. I've poured through the comments here, and I've seen a couple of posts saying that in the HT3 the Sonicaps make a subtle difference that can be heard in careful A/B comparison.

So, I'm not convinced of the value in the SongTowers, but I'm interested to hear if anyone thinks that I should go for it.

I'll be using the SongTower RT's with a Wyred4Sound STI-1000 integrated amp (500W per channel into 8 ohms) fed by a Cullen-modified PS Audio DL III DAC with a MacBook as music server (over USB out to the DAC). I use the Speltz Anti-cables for speakers and balanced interconnects from DAC to amp.

By the way, I've really enjoyed reading through the forum so far. It seems like a great group here, and it's been a real pleasure working with Jim Salk on the order.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Oct 2009, 03:56 am »

I haven't read anything about the cap upgrade on the Salk circle, but, IIRC, Dave Ellis upgraded the caps in his 1801 speakers and thought, according to a post on the Ellis circle, that there was a discernible and worthwhile difference.

Welcome to the Salk speaker "family".

Rocket · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Oct 2009, 01:01 pm »

Hi,

For the cost of the sonicap upgrade it would almost put the price at about the same as the new ht1 floorstander that Jim has just released. I think you would hear more improvement with the ht1 than the Songtower with a sonicap upgrade.

Just my 2 cents.

Best of luck with your decision.

Regards

Rod

newzooreview · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Oct 2009, 02:21 pm »

@BrianM

Jeebus is right! I went from a 12 watt, battery-powered amp to the Wyred4Sound 500 watt per channel amp. I might have been overcompensating for trying to live with the little amp for so long, but now I figure I can drive any speaker I need to with plenty of headroom for transients.

The Sonicap bypass upgrade is $400.

@Rocket

HT1 floorstander? I can't find it on the Salk site. Can you point me to more info? I'm quite intrigued! I expect that a step up in drivers would do more than a cap upgrade as well.

newzooreview · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 Oct 2009, 03:07 pm »

@Rocket

By "HT1 floorstander" do you mean the Veracity QW listed on the Salk website? It looks like that would be about $3500 in standard veneer vs. $2645 for the SongTower RT's with Cardas posts. That's $855 more for the Veracity QW, or $1005 more if I keep the Cardas post option. And then I'm in the range of the HT2.

It's a given, I think, that the Veracity QW will be better than the SongTower RT (e.g. I could likely hear a difference that was meaningful). But what about the Veracity QW vs. the HT2? Is it mainly a matter of bass quality and quantity?

newzooreview · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 Oct 2009, 03:14 pm »

@Rocket

Thinking out loud, it seems as though the Veracity QW trades the cost of the second driver in the HT2 with the complexity/cost of cabinet construction. I'm curious about the effect on midrange, however. "Relaxed" can mean that there a bit more distortion in the midrange that smooths things over, or it can mean that one less driver allows for a simpler crossover and a cleaner sound.

Has anyone heard both of these speakers?

Art_Chicago · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 Oct 2009, 04:45 pm »

there is a thread on HT1-TL somewhere here. $~3K, LCY ribbon, Seas woofer, 32 Hz at -3 dB, ~85db sensitivity, but with your amp it should not matter . BTW, I really like AVA electronics in combo with Salk!

newzooreview · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 12:04 am »

Thanks everyone. I don't see an HT1-TL on the website, but I'll search around here and probably call Jim Salk tomorrow to talk it over. I assume it looks a lot like the HT2-TL with one woofer rather than two.

DMurphy · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 12:41 am »

Yup. That's what it looks like. But I wouldn't assume it sounds "better" than the ST ribbon above 40 Hz. It just goes lower than the ST. So if bass response between 31 Hz and 38 Hz is really important to you, then I would opt for the HT1-TL rather than the ST, with or without the sonicap upgrade. If not, then if it were my $ I would spring for the ST without super caps and spend the difference on music or a good charity.

Kokishin · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 12:56 am »

Quote from: newzooreview on 12 Oct 2009, 12:04 am

Thanks everyone. I don't see an HT1-TL on the website, but I'll search around here and probably call Jim Salk tomorrow to talk it over. I assume it looks a lot like the HT2-TL with one woofer rather than two.

For the new HT1-TL, check out this thread: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72061.0

emac · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 01:29 am »

Even though I haven't tried the Sonicap Platinums in Salk Speakers, I've added them to 3 different speakers (AV123's Strata Mini's and X-Omni's as well as GR Research O-3's). A couple of things come to mind about potentially adding them to the Salks. First, it's important to remember that the Platinums are not cheap. So, depending on the number of caps you need to bypass, it can get expensive (e.g. 6 w/ my Mini's). Second, I do not know what type of caps are being bypassed in the case of the Salks (though I am kind of curious about that). In all of the above speakers, the Platinums were added to Sonicap Gen I's. So, the Platinums may synergize better w/ the Gen I's than w/ other caps. Third, Danny Richie's recommendation is to use Sonicap Gen II's as bypass caps for caps in the woofer circuit. Yes, the Platinums are better than the Gen II's (significantly in my experience in the tweeter circuit), but it's not typically worth the additional cost. Fourth, while I've noticed clear sonic differences in all cases, the amount of improvement depends on the speaker. With the X-Omni's and O-3's, there was a nice increase in detail and musicality, though not dramatic. A nice improvement and worth the money spent, IMO. But with the Mini's, there was a much more noticeable and dramatic improvement even without them having burnt in (which takes between 150 and 200 hours in my experience). Same types of improvement w/ detail and musicality, it was just more of a jump in the case of the Mini's.

Hope this helps.

newzooreview · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 01:51 am »

@DMurphy

Thanks, I really appreciate the insight. I do have a HSU subwoofer that I can use if I ever want bass below 38 Hz.

The HT1-TL does look great, however!

@emac

Thanks. It sounds like the difference is more subtle with the SongTowers.

emac · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 03:59 am »

Quote from: newzooreview on 12 Oct 2009, 01:51 am

@emac

Thanks. It sounds like the difference is more subtle with the SongTowers.

May very well be. Can anyone tell me what are the typical caps used in SongTowers? The only info I could get is that in a pic they appear to be moderate sized and black. Thanks.

Rocket · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 09:10 am »

Hi,

I would go with Dennis' opinion rather than mine. I just I'd mention the new ht1tl because with the capacitor upgrade it would bring you pretty close to the new speaker.

Btw I've listened to speakers that were upgraded with hovland capacitors as opposed to axon caps and whilst there was an improvement I thought it was pretty subtle.

Good luck and let us know which way you went for your purchase.

Regards

Rod

emac · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 01:29 pm »

Quote from: Rocket on 12 Oct 2009, 09:10 am

Btw I've listened to speakers that were upgraded with hovland capacitors as opposed to axon caps and whilst there was an improvement I thought it was pretty subtle.

So, I'm guessing that the stock Salks use Axon caps, which would be consistent w/ the pic of the XO I saw. Axons are not a bad choice by any means, and are pretty good for the price. GR Research uses them as the stock option in their kits, and my Paradox 1's (which use Axons) sound pretty good to my ears.

jsalk · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 02:50 pm »

The stock caps are generally Solen.

- Jim

fsimms · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 05:28 pm »

Quote

I would go with Dennis' opinion rather than mine.

I would go with your opinion rather than Dennis' opinion. Neither one of you is right, it is a matter of personal taste. I like the HT's much better than the SongTowers. It depends on what you listen for in your music. The SongTowers are more like a live performance and the HT's are like you are in the same room with the players in the recording studio. The SongTowers image a bit better, but the HT's are more dynamic. The HT's have more excitement to the music and the SongTowers have more musical bloom. As Dennis once said, the SongTowers have less bloom than most other speakers.

Bob

newzooreview · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 08:45 pm »

I just came back from Dennis's house, and I'll post my notes on the listening session in a new thread. I've decided to go with the HT1-TLs since, in comparison to the stock SongTowers that he had I thought they were better for my interests. If I had purchased SongTowers I would have been very very happy with them, but the HT1-TL offered a little more (and cost a little more). I'll comment more fully in the new thread. Dennis did not have the SongTower RTs on hand.

Nuance · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 09:19 pm »

Great news, newzooreview! I am glad you got to meet" the man behind the curtain" and hear some Salk offerings.

I look forward to further impressions.

newzooreview · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Oct 2009, 12:21 am »

@fsimms

I assume you have the HT1's (rather than the HT1-TL, which I understand was just introduced)?

In my own direct comparison between the SongTower (not RT) and HT1-TL I would say that when there was a difference in imaging the advantage went to the HT1-TL (in Dennis's room and with the music we listened to).

I did hear what you might be referring to as bloom in the SongTowers. I'm not sure if we're hearing the same thing, but for me it was more that the SongTowers (in a relative sense) were darker and less open sounding. Those adjectives probably come across as more pejorative than I mean them. It's just a different flavor of good, although the sound stage depth of the HT1-TL was definitely a good thing in my view.

@BrianM

I would think that the HT1-TL would be better for rock since it can discriminate complex music more easily than the standard SongTowers. Something like Neil Young and Crazy Horse can put out a big wall of sound and when I've heard it on fast dynamic speakers (like the HT1-TL) it is resolved better (and sounds more live to me). With that said, the SongTowers would not exhibit any glaring weakness when heard on their own (and may be more forgiving of bad recordings than the HT1-TL.).

In any event I'm not going to bother with the Sonicap upgrades.