Applying felt on front baffle?

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Saturn94

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Applying felt on front baffle?
« on: 23 Nov 2011, 06:24 pm »
I've read more than once about applying felt on the front baffle to reduce reflections thereby improving imaging and the speaker's ability to "disappear".

Is this true, or does it depend on the speaker's design?  Would this improve my HT2-TL, or would it just introduce other problems?


Photon46

Re: Applying felt on front baffle?
« Reply #1 on: 23 Nov 2011, 07:10 pm »
Read the article linked below for a little insight into the thinking behind this.

http://www.speakerdesign.net/felt/felt_ring_vs_blocks.html

jsalk

Re: Applying felt on front baffle?
« Reply #2 on: 23 Nov 2011, 07:14 pm »
When you add felt to the front baffle, you basically change the amount of high frequency energy reflected off the front baffle (the theory is to eliminate it to the extent possible).  Since the speaker voicing is based on measurements that include this reflected sound, you will end up with less high frequency energy than is required for flat frequency response.  This does not mean it is a bad idea.  It just means that the crossover has to be designed with the felt in place or the balance won't be right.  Personally, I would not do it.

- Jim

Big Red Machine

Re: Applying felt on front baffle?
« Reply #3 on: 23 Nov 2011, 07:15 pm »
I've read more than once about applying felt on the front baffle to reduce reflections thereby improving imaging and the speaker's ability to "disappear".

Is this true, or does it depend on the speaker's design?  Would this improve my HT2-TL, or would it just introduce other problems?

I wouldn't do it.  Good for taming issues but then you create another set of issues.  I've never experienced increased imaging with felt.  But then your room acoustics come into play with the reflections but I would treat the room first.

Saturn94

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Re: Applying felt on front baffle?
« Reply #4 on: 23 Nov 2011, 07:51 pm »
Great information.  Thanks. :D

jimdgoulding

Re: Applying felt on front baffle?
« Reply #5 on: 23 Nov 2011, 08:43 pm »
Hi, Saturn.  I custom make wool felt pads for the removal of diffraction effects off conventional speakers.  Use of the pads does not curtail anything coming directly from the tweeter nor should it.  In the graph below taken using some two way bookshelf speakers you can see that the blue line with the pads in place is flatter or smoother than the red line at around 2.5kHz.  The bump in the red line w/o pads at the same place is the result of diffracted waveforms summing in at the microphone.  What you can't see, nor can I show you, is the insult that diffracted waveforms make to a speaker's time and phase response as they are late arriving.  That is cancelled and is the greater benefit to appreciating what our systems are working to deliver.  Off axis, with the use of the pads, energy above the crossover and beyond is reduced a couple db.  This could be beneficial if a person's speakers were close to adjacent walls. 

Lots of people here at AC and around the world use my product, but those with Jim's speakers have reported that they prefer listening with the pads off.  Way to go, Jim!  That suggests to me that they are going to be of value on some speakers more than others.  I offer with a 30 day trial period for this reason.

 

By the way, Big Red is an exception when he says he has never experienced improvements in imaging using felt.  Some of the all time great imaging speakers used or use it like Dunlavy, Vandersteen, Spica, Rogers moniters, and others.  Most of my customers say far and away that imaging is improved.

jtwrace

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Re: Applying felt on front baffle?
« Reply #6 on: 24 Nov 2011, 12:18 am »
Hi, Saturn.  I custom make wool felt pads for the removal of diffraction effects off conventional speakers.  Use of the pads does not curtail anything coming directly from the tweeter nor should it.  In the graph below taken using some two way bookshelf speakers you can see that the blue line with the pads in place is flatter or smoother than the red line at around 2.5kHz.  The bump in the red line w/o pads at the same place is the result of diffracted waveforms summing in at the microphone.  What you can't see, nor can I show you, is the insult that diffracted waveforms make to a speaker's time and phase response as they are late arriving.  That is cancelled and is the greater benefit to appreciating what our systems are working to deliver.  Off axis, with the use of the pads, energy above the crossover and beyond is reduced a couple db.  This could be beneficial if a person's speakers were close to adjacent walls. 

Lots of people here at AC and around the world use my product, but those with Jim's speakers have reported that they prefer listening with the pads off.  Way to go, Jim!  That suggests to me that they are going to be of value on some speakers more than others.  I offer with a 30 day trial period for this reason.

Jim was this measurement done with the mic 1m away from the speaker? 

jimdgoulding

Re: Applying felt on front baffle?
« Reply #7 on: 24 Nov 2011, 12:24 am »
It was one or two meters, I believe.  I didn't make it.  Some user comments using a variety of speakers can be seen at my site.
« Last Edit: 24 Nov 2011, 03:49 am by jimdgoulding »

jtwrace

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Re: Applying felt on front baffle?
« Reply #8 on: 24 Nov 2011, 12:29 am »
You and diffracted waveforms both are, jt, at the listening position.  That graph was probably made at one or two meters.  I didn't make it.  Some user comments using a variety of speakers can be seen at my site.

Yes, I had a pair of pads...

Saturn94

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Re: Applying felt on front baffle?
« Reply #9 on: 24 Nov 2011, 02:32 am »
Hi, Saturn.  I custom make wool felt pads for the removal of diffraction effects off conventional speakers.  Use of the pads does not curtail anything coming directly from the tweeter nor should it.  In the graph below taken using some two way bookshelf speakers you can see that the blue line with the pads in place is flatter or smoother than the red line at around 2.5kHz.  The bump in the red line w/o pads at the same place is the result of diffracted waveforms summing in at the microphone.  What you can't see, nor can I show you, is the insult that diffracted waveforms make to a speaker's time and phase response as they are late arriving.  That is cancelled and is the greater benefit to appreciating what our systems are working to deliver.  Off axis, with the use of the pads, energy above the crossover and beyond is reduced a couple db.  This could be beneficial if a person's speakers were close to adjacent walls. 

Lots of people here at AC and around the world use my product, but those with Jim's speakers have reported that they prefer listening with the pads off.  Way to go, Jim!  That suggests to me that they are going to be of value on some speakers more than others.  I offer with a 30 day trial period for this reason.

 

By the way, Big Red is an exception when he says he has never experienced improvements in imaging using felt.  Some of the all time great imaging speakers used or use it like Dunlavy, Vandersteen, Spica, Rogers moniters, and others.  Most of my customers say far and away that imaging is improved.

I took a look at your site; nice music. :thumb:  What is that?

I found it interesting that the imaging effects some describe in the testimonials matches how I would describe the imaging characteristics of my HT2-TLs. :)

jimdgoulding

Re: Applying felt on front baffle?
« Reply #10 on: 24 Nov 2011, 03:45 am »
Saturn, if you would revisit the site the names of the recording and artist appear at the bottom of each page.  Cheers.

 

Saturn94

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Re: Applying felt on front baffle?
« Reply #11 on: 24 Nov 2011, 03:49 am »
Saturn, if you would revisit the site the names of the recording and artist appear at the bottom of each page.  Cheers.

I missed that the first visit. :oops:

Thanks. :D

jimdgoulding

Re: Applying felt on front baffle?
« Reply #12 on: 24 Nov 2011, 04:14 am »
Also, for inquiring minds: 

http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/images/diffdem.gif

Those red and green circles are not a part of any recording you own.  They are out of time and phase with the blue ones.  They ARE the blue ones being diffracted.  Out, damn diffraction!  And I forgot to include Wilson in the list of manfacturers above. 
« Last Edit: 24 Nov 2011, 02:06 pm by jimdgoulding »