AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Daedalus Audio => Topic started by: Daedalus Audio on 5 Dec 2010, 09:26 pm
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I just heard that a customer in Seattle had his home broken into last night and his entire system stolen. please watch for any of these items:
Shindo Masseto preamplifier with MC/MM phono stage
- Shindo silver interconnects
- Shindo upgraded power cord
- EAR Acute CD player, Serial #: 08321001
- Black Diamond Source stand
- Daedalus DA 1.1 speakers, in walnut
- Shunyata Hydra-8 line conditioner w/high current 20 amp Silent Source
power cord
- Acoustic Zen Krakatoa power cables - 2
- Kubala Sosna Emotion power cable -
- Auditorium 23 speaker cables (4 1⁄2 meters)
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That makes me sick. I hope they find the bastards and break their arms.
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Wow, they are pros. They really cleaned up a massive system and I am sure they know what they have in their hands. Sad day for your customer and hopefully the insurance will cover the loses.
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Take it from someone who's lost 2 systems from breakin's, both during Christmas week in 1980 and again in 1990. Both systems were mid-fi, nothing remotely resembling this system but I'm sure that poor chap has that same empty violated feeling that I had each time it happened to me. :thumbdown:
Best advise I can give the guy is to do what I did, get a dog. A dog who is highly protective of his home and highly loyal to his owner. My Australian Shephard, Bandit, is the best insurance I could have ever gotten and he's my buddy to boot! :thumb:
Sad thing is even if they do catch those A'holes, any punishment won't compensate for what they're putting that poor victim through. Now chop off a hand or 2, that might help prevent the next potential victim. 8)
Cheers,
Robin
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...chop off a hand or 2, that might help prevent the next potential victim. 8)
That's a very effective deterrent for other would be thieves.
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So you consider cutting off hands equal to stealing luxury items?
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It doesn't matter what item was stolen, cut em off!!!
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So you consider cutting off hands equal to stealing luxury items?
Let someone come in and trash your home,,,, then get back to me. :o
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I've been robbed, I'm with you....
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I just hope I am upstairs working when someone breaks into my home. Losing a hand will be the least of their worries!
I really feel for the person that has his home broken into and his system stolen! Probably for a little drug money.
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another side to this is who buys the stolen goods?
a friend and I had our cameras stolen in BC once, the RCMP explained that it looked like they were pros and that the cameras were probably already on their way to a warehouse from which they would be sold on ebay! he told me of raids they had done were they found highly organized outfits with tens of thousands of items which they 'fenced' on ebay. after that I refuse to be involved with any 'great' deal on the internet and check the source of anything to make sure it is legit.
I also have a dear friend whose nephew is a crack addict, he has been in and out of jail for years, keeps trying to pull his life together but it's hard. a basically good guy trashing his life and leaving a wide wake. lots of burglaries etc, and he learned these skills in our criminal education system (prison). so the prison wasn't so much a deterrent as a place to learn how to be really bad. it's a quandary, I wouldn't want his hands cut off, and in a sense our system taught him to be bad, but he and others need to be stopped. I don't know maybe if early on he lost a hand he might have gained his life? obviously cutting off limbs is not acceptable but we need to do something different. and as it is in major metropolitan areas burglaries are treated like traffic tickets and that is dead wrong.
as for luxury items, these people also had many other personal items stolen, sounds like they were in the midst of a move and some gang used a moving truck on their new home. the really worst part is the sense of violation.
so we should all think about being absolutely sure we aren't inadvertently supporting this kind of criminal behavior and we need to think deeply about what needs to really change in out society to prevent this help keep people from becoming these kind of foul criminals.
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Locking people up for substance abuse certainly does no one any good as far as that goes
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While I agree with Lou ( I'm not serious about the hand cutting off comment) i still can honestly say once someone starts breaking into someones house it is no longer a drug problem, it is a potentially life threatening situation and that individual forfeits their right the second they pick the lock or smash the window. If someone broke into my house the last thing i would think is "gee I wonder if this person is a drug addict" first on my mind would be eliminating the threat any way I can. I may be crass and short sighted, but I don't give a damn, at some point people pay for what they do regardless of how tough life is on them.
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Bet you any money those items end up in vancouver BC. I will watch the canuckaudiomart for it.
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While I agree with Lou ( I'm not serious about the hand cutting off comment) i still can honestly say once someone starts breaking into someones house it is no longer a drug problem, it is a potentially life threatening situation and that individual forfeits their right the second they pick the lock or smash the window. If someone broke into my house the last thing i would think is "gee I wonder if this person is a drug addict" first on my mind would be eliminating the threat any way I can. I may be crass and short sighted, but I don't give a damn, at some point people pay for what they do regardless of how tough life is on them.
just to clarify, sure I'm a bleeding heart lefty hippie, I also have a loaded 12 gauge pump and I spend most of my free time practicing martial arts. so if I catch someone breaking into my house I don't believe I'll be too concerned with their tough childhood... still I don't want to isolate myself in my reactionary attitudes. so I think it's good to explore what are all the causes and responsibilities, maybe we can make this a better world, eh? yet when the time comes I can't really blame anyone for using force to defend themselves and their homes. I know I'd like to personally do some serious damage to the punks that stole from my friend.
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Reminds me of the crimey days in NYC back in the late 1980s and early 1990s...burglaries galore. Our family's places had been burglarized, in one place 2 twice within 2 months, 1 in another place. They took our TV and VCR which was the best thing that could have happened to me as I was just listening to radio 8 hours a day, also read the NYT daily for almost 2 years....Back then people did not bother to have some decent stereos, I gave up my stereo stuff and just had a CD boombox.
It has been decades since then but a burglary is something I would not want anyone to face especially when walking into their new places.
Talking about these comments about choppin' hands to prevent burglary etc... In a South American country our family once lived, the concept of private property was sacred to the extent that anyone found inside one's adobe or property could be shot on site, without much repercussions from the law. They call any sort of violation of private property like a life threatening home invasion.
Not that this would help much in the US, as weapons are so freely available, and found well among the criminal elements.
I say, ask the insurance company to do something about this. An alarm and a smart guard dog will help.
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It's a real shame. It happens everywhere. I can understand someone who is hungry stealing food but beyond that it is out-of-hand.
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When I was 17 I had a friend who not only got hooked on crack but he broke into my parents house and stole irreplaceable , and very sentimental items from my parents. Broke my heart and angered me to say the least. Worst part is I knew who did it, but couldnt prove it.
Lou brings up a good point how they treat it like a traffic ticket. You look at a country like Singapore who has very lil crime and drug problems simple b/c the punishments are so severe people will think twice. I've never been to there airport but Ive heard they have a sign in several languages near all the exits and entries, which basially says "if we find drugs on you, we will kill you" A lil severe yes but if it saves more lives and people from being violated like this, then the collateral damage is worth it in the long run. Just my .02 cents.
Hope they catch them , bothers me to hear about this.
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Sad, very sad. I worry about this often.
Every time a person (non family or close friend) enters my home and asks about my components I tell them "it is just a cheapo system that has fake tubes on it for looks only, and they don't even light any more." And that "it actually sounds terrible and I've been meaning to go to Best Buy to buy something worthwhile to use." I tell them "I bought the speakers from some guy in a white van who told me they were good, but sound like crap, so if I ever see that guy again I'm going to pound him."
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Sad, very sad. I worry about this often.
Every time a person (non family or close friend) enters my home and asks about my components I tell them "it is just a cheapo system that has fake tubes on it for looks only, and they don't even light any more." And that "it actually sounds terrible and I've been meaning to go to Best Buy to buy something worthwhile to use." I tell them "I bought the speakers from some guy in a white van who told me they were good, but sound like crap, so if I ever see that guy again I'm going to pound him."
:lol:
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Google Castle Doctrine if you're not familar with it. Here's a summary for my state.
"HB 2615 simply states that if a criminal breaks into your home, your occupied vehicle or your place of business, you may presume he is there to do bodily harm and you may use any force necessary against him. It also removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a legal right to be.
Further, HB 2615 provides protection from criminal prosecution and civil litigation for those who defend themselves from criminal attack. The "Castle Doctrine" bill met with overwhelming, bipartisan support, passing 96-2 in the state House and 83-4 in the Senate. Oklahoma joins eight other states that have signed similar legislation into law this legislative cycle."
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It's a real shame. It happens everywhere. I can understand someone who is hungry stealing food but beyond that it is out-of-hand.
It's just a wild guess here up I would think the person(s) who went after this high end system wasn't J. Wellington Wimpy whose sole purpose there was to obtain a free hamburger. :lol: I doubt they even bothered looking into the fridge.
The 2nd time I got broke in and had my home ransacked, the meatballs took a half drank fifth of Seagrams 7 that was sitting on the counter yet left behind a fresh half gallon of Crown Royal (an X-mas present to me from me 8) ) that was sitting on the top shelf of my fridge. That alone told me two things, they weren't there trying to find something to eat,,,, and they had no class. :lol: Yet they had enough time to cut most every AC cord on the house along with knifing the furniture & curtains and irinating on the carpet.
Yes, I stand by my 1st post, unless I'm given the opportunity to have some time with them alone, face to face,, then they can keep their wrist (for all the good it'll do them). I never did find out who broke into my home both times, neither did the cops, and none of my possessions where ever recovered. I hope this story has a happier ending,,, but don't bet on it.
Crime does infact pay the majority of the time in this country, even if you're caught. Seems you're apt to spend more time in jail for drugs than you are for B&E. Stop slapping these SOB's on the wrist when they're finally caught and take them off! It's not a logical solution in a civilized world but it sure as hell would nip the problem in the bud,,, I mean wrist. :eyebrows:
Cheers,
Robin
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLLdNuOESk
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Sounds like high end burglary and probably has nothing to do with drug users. It was stated that other high end stuff was taken so they were probably cased for some time. I'd look for other high end burglaries in the area and hopefully the police have the same sense to do so.
These guys aren't amateurs.
On another note, if the victim lives in a nice, upscale neighborhood, it could also be someone's kids who live a block or two away. Again, the police should know if there were similar acts in the immediate area.
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Google Castle Doctrine if you're not familar with it. Here's a summary for my state.
"HB 2615 simply states that if a criminal breaks into your home, your occupied vehicle or your place of business, you may presume he is there to do bodily harm and you may use any force necessary against him. It also removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a legal right to be.
Further, HB 2615 provides protection from criminal prosecution and civil litigation for those who defend themselves from criminal attack. The "Castle Doctrine" bill met with overwhelming, bipartisan support, passing 96-2 in the state House and 83-4 in the Senate. Oklahoma joins eight other states that have signed similar legislation into law this legislative cycle."
But it doesn't protect you from civil suit.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLLdNuOESk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLLdNuOESk)
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
, but at the time it wasn't so funny. Go figure,,,,
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I bet it sucked!
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But it doesn't protect you from civil suit.
Here's some add'l info - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine
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What about the DSAF Doctrine?
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What about the DSAF Doctrine?
Not sure what that is. The Castle Doctrine has passed the House in VA (where I live) but did not make it through the Senate earlier this year. The debate essentially is that someone who is a victim should not have to guess what the intent of someone breaking into their house or whether or not they are armed. Other than a pellet gun, I don't have a gun permit at the moment. I do use the alarm and the couple of times it went off by accident over the many years, the local law enforcement response was generally not terribly long.
Many years ago in another house, I thought someone was breaking it. I'd hear banging like the back door was being kicked it. It did turn out to be a helium balloon that made its way upstairs in a split level to the bedroom and was hitting against a ceiling fan and then would settle around the bed for a couple of minutes before going back up and making the break in noise again. I did have a nice bar from a weight set to handle whatever the problem was and if it turned out to be a real problem, I don't think I'd hesitate to ask what someone's intentions are.
I think that someone hit the nail on the head earlier that there isn't enough penalty enforced in many cases. I'd expect given the current climate, we will see more Castle Doctrine and more citizens taking action in their homes. I really don't have a problem with what someone does to someone who breaks into their house and I don't think someone should have to dig into their pockets to defend themselves in a civil suit for ensuring their own safety vs. a law breaker with unknown intentions.
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I agree that more people are having to defend themselves in their home, which I'm OK with. I just think it sucks that it's come down to that. I mean, keeping people safe in their homes, isn't this why we have police and a criminal justice system in the first place?
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more people are having to defend themselves in their home
is this true?
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is this true?
You would have to look at stats - such as - http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/property_crime/burglary.html
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I just think it sucks that it's come down to that. I mean, keeping people safe in their homes, isn't this why we have police and a criminal justice system in the first place?
I totally agree with the above. Unfortunately, the real world, any system of Government is not perfect. For example, I don't know how many of you remember the sniper shootings here in the DC area from several years back. Here in Virginia, we have elected local Sheriffs. Many are not law enforcement officials but instead are politicians looking to enhance their careers above all else. I wonder how many people got shot over in-fighting about jurisdiction for some politician seeing it as a career enhancing move. I'm not picking on law enforcement. Here, we also have elected tax commissioners too. Many are not professionals with an understanding of the business community and where there are holes in the system. They are politicians as well and it doesn't in all cases serve the public interest. It is not unique here, there are local prosecutors, judges, etc., who obtain their living and career potential from items that don't always go in the best interest of the general public.
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So nationally it was down 1.3% and in my state over 5% from 2008-2009.
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How about when someone you thought was a friend stays at your house and steals three boxes of collectibles from you, items I' d had since childhood, 60 or 70 English tin soldiers 1950s vintage, a stack of genuine Confederate money in a box with various old coins and stamps, and an old tin box I'd gotten from my grandfather. All the latter had in it was family papers and letters. The guy just grabbed the box thinking something of value might be in it, checked later and probably ended up throwing all of it out. I didn't miss any of it until weeks later, something he was counting on,no doubt, but I know who it was.
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Sounds like high end burglary and probably has nothing to do with drug users. It was stated that other high end stuff was taken so they were probably cased for some time. I'd look for other high end burglaries in the area and hopefully the police have the same sense to do so.
These guys aren't amateurs.
On another note, if the victim lives in a nice, upscale neighborhood, it could also be someone's kids who live a block or two away. Again, the police should know if there were similar acts in the immediate area.
I agree, when I have heard about friends who have been burgled, the HIFi is immune. They walk straight past the $30000 system and steal the TV and other appliances.
There is a logic to this. If you are'nt a profesional, but Drug user, you go straight to a bar and offer the TV for sale. That would'nt work for a HiFi system. you want easily saleable items, regardless of value.
As for punishment, the US locks up more people than most other societies, I am not aware you have less crime. There is a discussion about crime and Jail time in the UK at the moment. Our Conservative(Republican) minister for justice, wants to lock up less peolpe, mainly because it is so costly. The only virtue of prison I can see, is people can'nt commit crimes while they are there. They do the day they leave of course.
The whole issue of guns is a thorny one. A UK tourist knocked on someones door to ask directions in the US a few years ago and the frightened home owner shot him dead on the doorstep. Frightened people do illogical things.
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It sucks. we were broken into as well while sleeping. They didn't get much. Lucky for us.
Today if they get passed our Shepard they will face the shotgun.
charles
In the mid .70's I owned a Mac MA6100 Integrated amp, and a mR74 tuner, along with a pair of ML1C speakers. Now the mac speakers frankly compared to today's standards were not nearly as good. but They also took my Thorns TD16C table. They left the speakers. No wonder, those beasties weighed in about 50 pounds each. It actually happened to me twice. The first time the amp and Tuner were taken. They both were recovered. The second time this happened, I was taking a nap in the next room. my roommate came home and woke me up, "Ray! you've been ripped off." Yeah, right. This time both amp tuner, and table were gone. they left the Stax phones and speakers. I actually had two tables at the time, the other being the Conneseurtable and arm. So I do know what it's like to be violated. no fun at all.
The first time, I found out who was the crook. He walked. I don't know why. The second time, the stuff was never retreived. I did not have home insurance.
Ray
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They really had some time to clean your customer out. Most folks don't even have a clue on what this stuff costs and would have expected the cables to be left behind or perhaps they just took the entire rack...
I agree with the other poster, they probably did case the house. I've always been concerned about registering products, paying with a check at the local dealer or even posting your system on websites that record your IP address (i.e. audiocircle).
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The laws in the UK are much tougher on the homeowner. You have to use force proportional to the risk you face. So, if someone tries to punch you and you stab him, that is'nt proportionate and the police will charge you.
In a well known case 15 years ago or so, a farmer had been burgled several times, attacked 2 burglers with a shotgun, killing one. He got life imprisonment, as far as I remember, because it was felt by the jury, that he had persued and shot his victim in the back. If you face a threat in your home, you not only have to worry how to defend yourself, but what level of response is appropriate, not easy in the heat of the moment, when you are afraid. One advantage we do have, is that very few burglars will have a firearm, as they are only available under very stringent rules. I could not get a pistol or rifle, a shotgun would be easier.
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The laws in the UK are much tougher on the homeowner. You have to use force proportional to the risk you face. So, if someone tries to punch you and you stab him, that is'nt proportionate and the police will charge you.
In a well known case 15 years ago or so, a farmer had been burgled several times, attacked 2 burglers with a shotgun, killing one. He got life imprisonment, as far as I remember, because it was felt by the jury, that he had persued and shot his victim in the back. If you face a threat in your home, you not only have to worry how to defend yourself, but what level of response is appropriate, not easy in the heat of the moment, when you are afraid. One advantage we do have, is that very few burglars will have a firearm, as they are only available under very stringent rules. I could not get a pistol or rifle, a shotgun would be easier.
Well, pardon me, that just plain stupidity. If you have been robbed over and over again, and you somehow manage to catch the SOB, just happen to injore or kill theperson committing the crime, then that's defending your castle. But somehow, I don't understand how a jury would convict someone for defending his house. Now if a burgler is running away, and you don't chase him, how are you gonna catch him? Well, that's slightly off topic, and I'll leave that one alone for now. Don't want to think about that, because it will just piss me off. At least here in Arizona, (one of the States here in the US) someone is robbing your home, you take action, and ask questions later.
Ray Bronk
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Sometimes laws protect criminals when common sense tells you they shouldn't. Twenty five years ago there was a case, Bodine vs Enterprise High School, where the burglAr (who commited attempted burglAry) fell through a school roof skylight in an apparent attempt to steal some floodlights. Badly injuring himself, he sued for $8 million and settled for $260,000 + $1200/mo. for life.
His story was that he and his friends were playing basketball and were trying to redirect the lights. But I suppose any burglar could say they were walking past a home or business, tripped and fell through a window.
Steve
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Our local news in Chicago.
A guy goes into a tanning salon, sees the cash register girl tied up, sees a guy with a gun ,talks to him and tells the guy he has more money then what is in the cash register, take that and just leave. The guy isn't there for money, had the expression on his face that he could of cared less about cash, the guy bends down for the rope to tie up the guy who just walked in,the guy who just walked in is only thinking about how he can get back home to his 15 month old daughter and her possibly being without a father for the rest of her life. When the guy bends down for the rope the guy struggles with the armed man and somehow manages to disarm him and shoots him in the stomach. The robber dies. turns out the gun used matches up with the gun that was used 2 months earlier in the killing of ( I believe another couple and a lone farmer) for no apparent reason. The killings were called The honeybee murders or something like that.
This guy just did what he was suppose to do, and saved the young girl's life because this mudering creep surely was going to just kill this sales girl.
A perfect example of true justice. :thumb:
Just thought you would all like to hear. this uplifting story.
I'll try and post a link in a bit.
Here is the link. Enjoy :thumb:
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/12/sources-gun-in-tanning-salon-robbery-used-in-honeybee-shootings.html
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Our local news in Chicago.
A guy goes into a tanning salon, sees the cash register girl tied up, sees a guy with a gun ,talks to him and tells the guy he has more money then what is in the cash register, take that and just leave. The guy isn't there for money, had the expression on his face that he could of cared less about cash, the guy bends down for the rope to tie up the guy who just walked in,the guy who just walked in is only thinking about how he can get back home to his 15 month old daughter and her possibly being without a father for the rest of her life. When the guy bends down for the rope the guy struggles with the armed man and somehow manages to disarm him and shoots him in the stomach. The robber dies. turns out the gun used matches up with the gun that was used 2 months earlier in the killing of ( I believe another couple and a lone farmer) for no apparent reason. The killings were called The honeybee murders or something like that.
This guy just did what he was suppose to do, and saved the young girl's life because this mudering creep surely was going to just kill this sales girl.
A perfect example of true justice. :thumb:
Just thought you would all like to hear. this uplifting story.
I'll try and post a link in a bit.
Here is the link. Enjoy :thumb:
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/12/sources-gun-in-tanning-salon-robbery-used-in-honeybee-shootings.html
Yep, that is how it should be. Well, Bill you have excellent products, to go along with an excellent story.
Ray Bronk
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Sometimes laws protect criminals when common sense tells you they shouldn't. Twenty five years ago there was a case, Bodine vs Enterprise High School, where the burglAr (who commited attempted burglAry) fell through a school roof skylight in an apparent attempt to steal some floodlights. Badly injuring himself, he sued for $8 million and settled for $260,000 + $1200/mo. for life.
His story was that he and his friends were playing basketball and were trying to redirect the lights. But I suppose any burglar could say they were walking past a home or business, tripped and fell through a window.
Steve
This is just a variation on the principle of 'what would happen to an innocent..' It all boils down to the reasonableness of a situation (and person) and efforts taken to make it safe. Lets say you've been robbed recently so you lay a trap in the backyard, say a hole with a cover by the back door or you glue some broken glass on the brick fence or your roof/skyline is not sufficiently reinforced. Whatever. Now, say, some kid is going after his ball that went into your yard or on your roof. You get the picture. So does the law. This has been rehashed ad nauseam for millennia and all the talk about a 'man's castle' doesn't add up. Making laws that accommodate the fringe and phobic amongst us (it seems to be regional) can only lead to some deadly, and irreversible consequences.
Oh, and don't forget that juries, sometimes, do stupid things. Like the burglar who fell through the skylight, there was a case that involved Bell helmets where the motorcyclist broke his neck and was awarded so much that it almost bankrupted the company. Juries do stupid things. Its no excuse to overcompensate.
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Well, pardon me, that just plain stupidity. If you have been robbed over and over again, and you somehow manage to catch the SOB, just happen to injore or kill theperson committing the crime, then that's defending your castle. But somehow, I don't understand how a jury would convict someone for defending his house. Now if a burgler is running away, and you don't chase him, how are you gonna catch him? Well, that's slightly off topic, and I'll leave that one alone for now. Don't want to think about that, because it will just piss me off. At least here in Arizona, (one of the States here in the US) someone is robbing your home, you take action, and ask questions later.
Ray Bronk
Not saying I am agreeing with it, that's just the way it is. I am comforted though, by the stupidity of most criminals. There was a wonderful book published here called "The book of heroic failures", listing really dumb things people do;
Car thief not only tried to steal a police car, but with 2 cops sitting in it at the time!
Burglar in a stately home, hid in a a suit of armour till the home closed. Then started clanking around the house, in the armour!
Cat burglar trying to break into a factory in winter. He could'nt get through the roof skilght, so threw all his clothes through it, it squeeze through. He still could'nt get in so he was on a factory roof in winter, stark naked.
Recently, a bank robber filled out an account application with his real name and address, whilst casing the bank and was suprised to find the police waiting for him, when he got home with the loot.
No, want can'nt underestimate the depth of stupidity of the average criminal mind.
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http://blog.washingtonpost.com/story-lab/2010/12/post_4.html?hpid=artslot
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Anyone know what the victim can recover from his homeowners insurance? I wonder what the limits are for electronics? Anybody here buy additional coverage or a special "rider" for their system?
Rob S.
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gettin' what's comin' to 'em.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40713870/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts
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Interesting topic that caught my eye because I was just thinking I ought to check with my insurance company to make sure I'm covered for my system. Has anyone actually had to make a claim for high-end, high-value items that are covered on a renters or homeowners policy? Regarding the use of lethal force: Anyone who protects their home with a firearm, or carries one with or without a permit, should take the time to read some of the articles and books by Massaad Ayoob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob). His book, In the Gravest Extreme (http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Ayoob&Product_Code=GE), is mandatory reading for anyone who owns a gun in the United States.