AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: Marbles on 27 Oct 2009, 06:10 pm
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What are your thoughts on the Rythmik subs?
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I have the 12" servo with their PEQ370 plate amp and I love it!!
I did the DIY sealed enclosure as per the plans on the website
Great product and great service.
I have integrated it with a pair of Dahlquist DQ10's and it blends seamlessly and has infinite adjustments...
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For music in small or medium sized rooms they are great. You'll need multiples for largish rooms, though. They are not SPL monsters, so don't expect SVS or JL Audio max output. However, the sound quality equals those manufactures at reasonable levels. Its when you push them to stupid levels that they show their weaknesses and the SVS and JL will outshine them. But hey, they cost less and aren't designed for that application anyway.
I give them two thumbs up!
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I had a chance to have them for a few weeks paired with Danny's Neo Monitors.
I could not find any fault with them. No, they don't have a remote or other fancy features.
They were extremely easy to set up and blended seamlessly with the fast Neos. The pair sounded more like high end full range and less like separate units.
They are fast and they go deep and loud enough for all music types ...
Above all they are a bargain ... as you buy them direct.
Cheers
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I'll let you know Friday! :thumb:
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Only other subs I've heard that are as good for music are the VMSP Original subs.
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Marbles,
You may want to locate this question in a general circle so more folks will see it (GR, Ascend, et al followers) and hopefully respond.
IMHO, if you like your music to have a "fast & accurate" lower end versuses "fat & boomy" lower end, then you will love what Rhythmik servo has to offer. I'm still not sure what the two PR's do (in Jim's design) with the overall output/quality? I am going to have to research that design aspect a little more. In my experience, a 12" sealed GR/Rythmik w/NoRez replaced a Vandersteen 2W with ease.
Lou
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I love my Salk Rythmik. It is accurate and goes deep enough for HT. It really shines with music because of the servo function. The only negative is the size of it. My not passive radiator version still weighs 100+ pounds.
Shawn
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Marbles,
Thanks for pointing that out. I thought I had lost my mind and that you had them but wasn't sure based on your first post. :scratch:
Lou
Marbles,
You may want to locate this question in a general circle so more folks will see it (GR, Ascend, et al followers) and hopefully respond.
IMHO, if you like your music to have a "fast & accurate" lower end versuses "fat & boomy" lower end, then you will love what Rhythmik servo has to offer. I'm still not sure what the two PR's do (in Jim's design) with the overall output/quality? I am going to have to research that design aspect a little more. In my experience, a 12" sealed GR/Rythmik w/NoRez replaced a Vandersteen 2W with ease.
Lou
Actually, I have 4 of them and love them. I was hoping that Jim would post his impressions since he has built (and I hope heard) at least one of them.
The top 16 pictures in Christof's gallery are about my subs:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=281
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Marbles\Laserman -
At least as I discussed subs with Jim, it is my understanding that the passive radiator design is a "best of both worlds" type of deal within a reasonable expectation. For example, you can get tight, musical bass in a sealed configuration at the loss of some output. You can get more output and more boom with a ported design. If you throw a Rythmik driver in either of those, you get more accuracy with the same basic characteristics (tight/boom). The passive radiator eliminates the port noise (an advantage of sealed subs) and allows more air to be moved for increased output compared to a similarly configured sealed sub (an advantage in the ported realm). This was really the kicker for me, very good output, and some of the best bass quality available due to lack of port noise and the Rythmik driver.
I really don't know that Jim spent much time with my particular sub (15" with 2 passive radiators) listening. As far as I know, he just completed it not long ago and packed it last Saturday. I would think he would've tried it minimally just to see that it worked, but seeing the products he's put out on the forum and the updates I got with respect to my system, I just don't know where he'd of had the time to really put it through its paces. But maybe he did, I don't really know.
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Marbles,
You may want to locate this question in a general circle so more folks will see it (GR, Ascend, et al followers) and hopefully respond.
IMHO, if you like your music to have a "fast & accurate" lower end versuses "fat & boomy" lower end, then you will love what Rhythmik servo has to offer. I'm still not sure what the two PR's do (in Jim's design) with the overall output/quality? I am going to have to research that design aspect a little more. In my experience, a 12" sealed GR/Rythmik w/NoRez replaced a Vandersteen 2W with ease.
Lou
Actually, I have 4 of them and love them. I was hoping that Jim would post his impressions since he has built (and I hope heard) at least one of them.
The top 16 pictures in Christof's gallery are about my subs:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=281
...and orphan'd Dymaxion #5 made it to my house :green:
I love the sound and can only imagine what the Salk/Rhythmik 15 with 2 passives must be like.
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Marbles, you drive a hard bargain. When I see a question like this, I want to take my time so I can provide an appropriate, thoughtful resonse. Then, a few months later when I finally find the time, I forget I was going to answer. So I'll take the time now to provide a few quick impressions before my memory fades.
I might point out, here, that we have only done a few Rythmik projects to date. Naturally, when we build them, customers would like them delivered rather than letting me take them home for an extended period. So my comments are based on rather limited time with the units we have built.
With that in mind, let me start by saying that I love the Rythmik drivers. It is natural that I should say this as they are obviously based on the original TC Sounds drivers (as far as I can tell) - drivers I have had a great deal of experience with and that I believe are some of the best deep bass drivers ever. In fact, Thilo may build these for Rythmik - I don't know. Rythmik simply adds an additional voice coil for use in a feedback loop with their servo amps.
When we built the first 15" Rythmik sub, we tested it against our SongSub. We set the crossover at about 80Hz and ran music and tones. The SongSub is a very low distortion sub and the two tracked very similarly to a point. As the bass went deeper, however, the Rythmik took over. Of course, it should have since it has more displacement - a 15" driver should move more air than a 12" driver, all else being equal (there is no substitute for displacement).
The nice thing was, this first Rythmik sub was sealed. So the bass should have rolled off much earlier than the SongSub and it did not. In this case, the servo forced the system to play deeper than it normally would. That is the good thing. The not so good thing is that the amp was almost wide open in order to get the same output as the SongSub with the gain set at about 30% of maximum. This is because the Rythmik amp is not as powerful in the first place and a good deal of power was consumed forcing the system to play deeper than a sealed system would normally play. But in the end, there was enough gain to mate well with a pair of stand mounted speakers. (I understand Brian is working on a higher power amp at this time and that will be a nice addition to the line.)
The sound quality was extremely good. With a little care, it was easy to set the system up to the point where you did not notice the sub was playing. The only way you could tell is that the system played much deeper than the stand-mounted speakers would have played on their own. That is the mark of a very good subwoofer - very tight, very accurate and very musical.
How would this system compare to a 15" driver in a cabinet with dual 15" passives and no servo control. I don't know, but it would be an interesting comparison. My gut instinct tells me that if the cabinet and passives were designed and tuned correctly, the results would be very similar. In that case, the servo would not be asked to do as much since the driver would play deep and fairly accurately on its own. But with the cost of the Rythmik solution, there really isn't any reason to test that hypothesis unless you need more power. The servo technology is just not that expensive to begin with so why not take advantage of it.
Now, to answer another question, why would we use passives? Well, to gain better overall performance, you would normally port the cabinet. This would extend the natural bass response. The problem is, when you try and play bass around 20Hz or so, port noise becomes a real issue. You could always increase the port diameter to deal with this, but with these drivers, the port length becomes EXTREMELY long EXTREMELY fast. It is simply not practical to try and cram an 80" long port into a cabinet that is already rather sizeable.
The solution is passive radiators. With the help of Jeff Bagby, we determined that two well-tuned 15" passives would provide the performance of a ported cabinet without any port noise at all. The system would play plenty deep without putting any exsessive demand on the amplifier. And I think the results worked out very well. The 15" Rythmik with dual 15" tuned passives required far less gain than the sealed version we originally played with. I was very pleased with the results even though I didn't have a great deal of time to play with the resulting sub (Josh was waiting for his speakers to ship).
As for my personal sub project, I am just putting the finishing touches on a new subwoofer system for my home theater. It consists of a pair of HT4 woofer cabinets tuned to 18Hz for in-room repsonse into the mid teens. For those not familiar with the design, these cabinets feature a 12" driver of the same type, combined with a pair of 12" passives. I will set it up with a Velodyne SMS1 and a pair of 1200 watt amps. I susect the results will be very good - servo or not. But we'll see...
I wish I had more time to organize my thoughts, but that was off the top of my head with no time for editing. All to make Marbles happy...
- Jim
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Jim made the first Rythmik 15" sub that he tested for me ( i think anyway). The sub does have to have the amp turned up to almost 3/4. I cross over at 60Hz. I have considered 80Hz, but have not gone that as of yet. I didn't have the room for 2 subs and wanted accurate, not boomy bass. This sub was the answer. I have not rebalanced the gain since the Sub has been used for over 200 hours. I may be able to back off the gain as the woofer has broken in more. No, I don't think the Amp had to break in, but it is likely the woofer may have had to.
Shawn
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Marbles,
You may want to locate this question in a general circle so more folks will see it (GR, Ascend, et al followers) and hopefully respond.
IMHO, if you like your music to have a "fast & accurate" lower end versuses "fat & boomy" lower end, then you will love what Rhythmik servo has to offer. I'm still not sure what the two PR's do (in Jim's design) with the overall output/quality? I am going to have to research that design aspect a little more. In my experience, a 12" sealed GR/Rythmik w/NoRez replaced a Vandersteen 2W with ease.
Lou
Actually, I have 4 of them and love them. I was hoping that Jim would post his impressions since he has built (and I hope heard) at least one of them.
The top 16 pictures in Christof's gallery are about my subs:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=281
Those are yours? Oh my - they are awesome looking! I bet they sound good too. :)
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Actually, I have 4 of them and love them.
Yes, but are they bubinga? :banghead:
:spammer:
My humor might only be humorous to me, and I apologize in advance to anyone that thinks my post is sarcastic, offensive, distasteful, rude, reprehensible, indicative of a character defect, etc.
Those subs look great, BTW.
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^ LOL! Hilarious!!
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I love the smell of Bubinga.
I have a surprise for you guys soon, a Salk surprise, an olive branch so to speak.
mike
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God, I wish you guys could come to a rave!!
you would so get it!!
One of you Salk guys has got to commit to a rave, I would love to get Nuance to a rave... he would have a blast
see the humor..and the fun.
it's just audio
Mike
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Aren't raves a place where kids just get high and dance to weird music? :D :P
I would have a blast playing borderlands or L4D2 with you. ;)
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Well, anyone who wants to hear my sub is welcome to come over. I just need some notice to clear it with SWMBO. I do, however, live in NYC. I upgraded my speakers and my electronics planning a move to Brooklyn that hasn't happened yet... Sigh.
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I bought two F-15's last month and I love them. You can find my review on AVSforum.com.
From a musical perspective the Rythmik Audio F-15 has allowed the midranges and tweeters in my Hale Designs T-5's to reach heights I've never heard before. My set-up sounds like Vandersteen 5-A on steroids. Just an incredible musical experience! :thumb:
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^ Considering the Vandersteen 5A's are the best speakers I've ever heard, I'd say that's pretty amazing! I have not heard of the Hale Designs T-5's. Do you have a link to some literature on them? Thanks.
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^ Considering the Vandersteen 5A's are the best speakers I've ever heard, I'd say that's pretty amazing! I have not heard of the Hale Designs T-5's. Do you have a link to some literature on them? Thanks.
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/699hales/
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Cool, thank you, Bob. Oh, and enjoy your GTG at Kirk's later this week. He's a good guy.
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God, I wish you guys could come to a rave!!
you would so get it!!
One of you Salk guys has got to commit to a rave, I would love to get Nuance to a rave... he would have a blast
see the humor..and the fun.
it's just audio
Mike
I might come to a rave, depending on the date and location. Are you referring to a NYAR rave? Is this an invitation?
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Check the NYAR rave circle for the list of dates.
Next one is this Saturday featuring a Salk HT3 and a Salk HT2 TL.
Both in Bubinga! In Staten Island.
Anyone and everyone is invited and encouraged to come to a rave!
The door is always open.
Just let the host know so he can be sure of the food, bring beer or wine or your favorite beverage.
Mike
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Check the NYAR rave circle for the list of dates.
Next one is this Saturday featuring a Salk HT3 and a Salk HT2 TL.
Both in Bubinga! In Staten Island.
Anyone and everyone is invited and encouraged to come to a rave!
The door is always open.
Just let the host know so he can be sure of the food, bring beer or wine or your favorite beverage.
Mike
I will try to make one soon. I can stop in Bridgeport on my way down and visit some old buddies. :o
Does Ed Crammer attend these raves?
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I bought two F-15's last month and I love them. You can find my review on AVSforum.com.
From a musical perspective the Rythmik Audio F-15 has allowed the midranges and tweeters in my Hale Designs T-5's to reach heights I've never heard before. My set-up sounds like Vandersteen 5-A on steroids. Just an incredible musical experience! :thumb:
WOW!!!
George
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Check the NYAR rave circle for the list of dates.
Next one is this Saturday featuring a Salk HT3 and a Salk HT2 TL.
Both in Bubinga! In Staten Island.
Anyone and everyone is invited and encouraged to come to a rave!
The door is always open.
Just let the host know so he can be sure of the food, bring beer or wine or your favorite beverage.
Mike
I will try to make one soon. I can stop in Bridgeport on my way down and visit some old buddies. :o
Does Ed Crammer attend these raves?
Maybe we can carpool down for Phil's annual holiday bash in December?
George
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How come all the fun happens on the East Coast? Maybe I need to move... :)
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Maybe we can carpool down for Phil's annual holiday bash in December?
George
George:
That would be great with me.
I looked at the NYAR circle but didn't see a date for Phil's Christmas Holiday.
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Dates tend to be set a little closer tot he actual rave.
We try to be flexible, to accommodate others schedules.
Sometimes we have polls to see what Saturday would suit most people.
Phil's would be an excellent rave to attend!
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Too late...been there, done that...(levi destroyed the evidence, er I mean the pictures...)
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=20446.0 :thumb: :green:
Actually, the problem is that the image links are in a very old format (three generations ago) and I haven't put in the proper redirects. I thought I had covered all the bases in the last move but I guess not. I'll look into it. In the meantime the album in question is here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=598
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http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=598
Where is the head cheese? :scratch:
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How come all the fun happens on the East Coast? Maybe I need to move... :)
Hardly, but you should move anyway. :wink:
Kinfolk said Jed move away from there
Said Californy is the place you ought to be
So they loaded up the truck and moved to Beverly.
Hills, that is.
Swimmin pools, movie stars.
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How come all the fun happens on the East Coast? Maybe I need to move... :)
"ALL THE FUN"?? Well, I never..... :cuss: :nono:
WEST COAST, baby!! Ain't got this on the right side of the continent.... aa (Sorry, I couldn't help but rub it in a little.)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee52/Tomorrow_10/P1000293.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee52/Tomorrow_10/P1000291.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee52/Tomorrow_10/P1000289.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee52/Tomorrow_10/P1000311.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee52/Tomorrow_10/P1000315.jpg)
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LOL! You guys are too cool.
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^ Considering the Vandersteen 5A's are the best speakers I've ever heard, I'd say that's pretty amazing! I have not heard of the Hale Designs T-5's. Do you have a link to some literature on them? Thanks.
FWIW I meant to say C-5 and not T-5. Here is a link to provide you with some basic information on Paul Hales. Unfortunately he sold his company several years ago, then tried to buy it back and then ended up going to work in the commercial speaker business.
Interesting story... back in 2000 I got up early one Saturday and made a map of all the audiophile stores in the Atlanta area. I jumped in the car with my wife and the search was on. We easily put over 100 miles on the odometer searching for just the right speaker. It was getting late in the afternoon and we were way on the west side of town at a Vandersteen dealership. We listened to the 5A's and my wife was in awe. She said they were the first speakers she'd heard all day that truly moved her. We had listened to some serious high-end gear that was more expensive that the 5A's. At the time I didn't feel like caughing up $9K for speakers, so I passed. We left the show room heart broken. It was getting late in the afternoon and I had one more dealer on my list, so I called the owner and told him I had just listened to the most amazing speaker and he politely asked me what it was and I told him. He asked me what my budget was and I told him. He said I want you to come in and listen to a speaker by Paul Hales. He had the room all set-up the time we got there. My wife and I sat on the sofa and listened for about 30 minutes. I kept asking the store owner, "Are you sure these are in my price range?" They were as detailed, transparent and artiulate as the 5A's, they just lacked the active woofer to provde the powerful bottom end that was so prevalent in the 5A's. I listened to some good Linn speakers, but they couldn't compare to the C-5's, so I bought them and haven't looked back since. I will never part with them and now that I have the impact of two subwoofers it brings them in line with the 5A's IMO.
Over time I will more than likely start another listening room, but I'll go wildly divergent... perhaps experimenting with an open baffle design, radiator tweeter, stat, or something else entirely.
http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/117/
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Great story, Audiobudha. There is nothing like putting in the work and time with the end result being a true reward.
Oh, and the 5A's cost $17,995, not $9,000. :)
I am off to read the Stereophile link you provided. Thanks!
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Too late...been there, done that...(levi destroyed the evidence, er I mean the pictures...)
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=20446.0 :thumb: :green:
This is fixed now. Thx
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Great story, Audiobudha. There is nothing like putting in the work and time with the end result being a true reward.
Oh, and the 5A's cost $17,995, not $9,000. :)
I am off to read the Stereophile link you provided. Thanks!
Remember this was 9 years ago. The dealer was selling them for $9K. I think they were floor demo's that may have impacted the prices. In any event they were out of my range. :D
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^ Wow, that's an amazing price for a pair of 5A's! Sounds like your C-5's sound better to your ears though, and that's all that matters. 8)
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Jim, I had a question or two regarding the quote below from one of your posts. The Rythmik sub that you compared to the song sub was presumably crafted and altered in your shop and had different specs (size, amp etc..), please correct me if I'm wrong. Therefore, I assume that the modified "Rythmik sub" had been improved over the original design that one would purchase from rythmik. If that is the case, then I also would assume that if a stock rythmik sub was run head to head with your songsub, it might not compare as favorably?
I'm not trying to step on anyones toes here, just trying to determine where my hard earned dollars should be spent. :) Please feel free to respone to this post in a PM if you think that is more appropriate.
Thanks for your time, Garth
When we built the first 15" Rythmik sub, we tested it against our SongSub. We set the crossover at about 80Hz and ran music and tones. The SongSub is a very low distortion sub and the two tracked very similarly to a point. As the bass went deeper, however, the Rythmik took over. Of course, it should have since it has more displacement - a 15" driver should move more air than a 12" driver, all else being equal (there is no substitute for displacement).
- Jim
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Garth -
Jim, I had a question or two regarding the quote below from one of your posts. The Rythmik sub that you compared to the song sub was presumably crafted and altered in your shop and had different specs (size, amp etc..), please correct me if I'm wrong.
The Rythmik subs we have built to date use the same drivers and amps as the stock Rythmik product. The drivers have an extra voicecoil that is used for the feedback circuit in the Rythmik servo amp. And the amp itself contains the servo circuitry. So if we do a Rythmik design, we have to use their drivers and amps.
Rythmik subwoofer cabinets are made from well-braced 3/4" MDF. When we build them, we use either 1" or 1 1/2" MDF and similar bracing. So our cabinets would tend to have slightly less cabinet resonance (and would be quite a bit heavier, of course).
The most recent sub we built for Josh, uses two 15" passive radiators rather than a port. This allows the sub to play as deep as it would if ported, but there is no port noise. When you get down to 20Hz or lower, the air velocity out of a port is quite high (you could probably dry your hair with it :icon_lol:). You can get rather severe port "chuffing" from this type of set-up. Using passive radiators increases the parts and labor costs in building a sub, but eliminates the possibility of port noise.
Keep in mind here that there is nothing magic about subs. Take a great driver, give it a well-braced cabinet with the volume it requires, supply enough wattage and you're in business. When compared to stock Rythmik subs, we can certainly build more inert cabinets and we can employ passives. But I think the main reason people have us build their Rythmik subs is that they can have the exact same finish as their speakers.
Therefore, I assume that the modified "Rythmik sub" had been improved over the original design that one would purchase from rythmik. If that is the case, then I also would assume that if a stock rythmik sub was run head to head with your songsub, it might not compare as favorably?
I wouldn't say that. I would say that a stock 12" Rythmik sub and a SongSub would be very comparable. The Rythmik sub may have slightly lower distortion due to the servo circuitry. (That said, the SongSub is a very low distortion (VLD) design.) On the other hand, the SongSub has more power and uses a passive radiator, so there is no port noise. Performance of the two subs would be relatively similar, but the SongSub's added power, coupled with the use of the passive, might be an advantage to some users.
If you compare the SongSub to the 15" version of the Rythmik, that is another story. The 15" Rythmik will play deeper than the SongSub and with more authority. There is simply no substitute for the added displacement of a 15" driver. If we built a custom sub with a 15" driver and a pair of 15" passives, the playing field would be more even. In that case, it would come down to a trade-off between and servo circuitry in the Rythmik and the added power (and perhaps the use of passives) you could have in a custom 15" sub. (The 15" driver we would use in a custom sub would essentially be the same driver without the servo voicecoil.) Since we have never done a comparison, I don't know how they would stack up.
As I indicated above, I think Brian is working on a higher power servo amp which would eliminate the power disparity. In that case, I would tend to choose the Rythmik set-up since the cost would be similar and the set-up would take advantage of servo technology. And we could still use thicker walls and perhaps passive radiators resulting in the best of all worlds.
I hope this helps.
- Jim
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Jim,
Thanks for the post. While information is always useful, it doesn?t always make the decision process easier :D
Garth
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Garth -
I've only had my dual passive sub about a week, but I'm in love with it. As Jim said, it has the stock driver and amp from Rythmik, but he did beef up the design by doubling the wall thickness, adding two passive radiators, and the veneer matches the rest of my setup. Its a beast to move at 140 lbs, but it sounds wonderful whether doing 2.1 channel music, stereo/dolby digital TV, or movies. Truly a versatile piece and beautiful to boot. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this type of sub (Rythmik + passive radiator) to anyone, although it does cost quite a bit more than a stock SongSub or Rythmik.
Josh
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Hi Josh,
Thanks for the input. I can only imagine how nice your sub looks and sounds. I think that the aspect of passives in the Rythimk design is ideal and would love to opt for it. However, I'm on a budget and the cash that I've allocated for the sub would only swing the songsub or the stock Rythmik. So, basically I'm jealous of your awesome setup. :drool:
I?ll ask but you don?t have to tell me; how much did it cost you to have Salk build the custom sub for you.
Enjoy and take care, Garth
Garth -
I've only had my dual passive sub about a week, but I'm in love with it. As Jim said, it has the stock driver and amp from Rythmik, but he did beef up the design by doubling the wall thickness, adding two passive radiators, and the veneer matches the rest of my setup. Its a beast to move at 140 lbs, but it sounds wonderful whether doing 2.1 channel music, stereo/dolby digital TV, or movies. Truly a versatile piece and beautiful to boot. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this type of sub (Rythmik + passive radiator) to anyone, although it does cost quite a bit more than a stock SongSub or Rythmik.
Josh