AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: Gumby on 1 Feb 2019, 05:39 pm

Title: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Gumby on 1 Feb 2019, 05:39 pm
  If a lot of rock, pop, new music , is recorded and mastered at a poor to average quality, then wouldn’t an entry level affordable System, sound better than a High-end, very Revealing Neutral  expensive System? 

Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Elizabeth on 1 Feb 2019, 06:34 pm
I have spent the last years trying hard to get both warm HiFi and detailed HiFi. My plan has been to chase the clarity, and worry about warmth later.
Having succeeded, I can say even poor sounding recording sound way better!
And great recordings sound fantastic. I think the problem with bad recordings come in when the equipment is good enough to display the shortcomings, yet can't get past them to show what is good about it anyway.
Added: for example, a 1953 radio transcript (most likely from a radio from home copy) of Maria Callas at Milan.. It clearly is a radio broadcast, so it sounds like a warmish 1950's radio with basically just the midrange. But the recording is ELECTRIC. You can feel the audience, the atmosphere.. Some certainly would turn up their nose. Not me. It was wonderful. So some recording sure there are limitations. Not a problem.
Magnepan 20.7
Bryston 4B-SST²
Bryston BP-26 (main preamp)
Threshold FET 10 line and phono
Rega P5 with Benz Glider
ARC SP-15
Kuzma Stabi Stogi S with Dynavector 17D3
Conrad Johnson ACT2
Audible Illusions Modulus 3
Marantz SA-10 (used as DAC for cheap five disc changers off eBay)
Furutech GTX duplex
Pangea A14XL cords
Kimber KS1116 1016
Furman REF20
PS Audio P-600 set to output 110Hz AC for CD changers
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: I.Greyhound Fan on 1 Feb 2019, 10:35 pm
  If a lot of rock, pop, new music , is recorded and mastered at a poor to average quality, then wouldn’t an entry level affordable System, sound better than a High-end, very Revealing Neutral  expensive System?


I have a lot of music that is poorly recorded that sounds better on a lower end system.  Much music from the 60's and 70's was recorded with AM and FM radio in mind.

I tend to favor a warmer and revealing sound.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: toocool4 on 1 Feb 2019, 10:47 pm
For me personally stuff the warmth BS, whenever I hear the word warm used what I hear is colouration. If everything sounds warm then your equipment is adding colour to the sound. The music should sound warm if the music is warm and cold or whatever if the music is cold or whatever. On my system everything comes across as close to the recording as possible, I don’t want my system adding it’s own colour to the sound.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Gumby on 1 Feb 2019, 10:55 pm
ELIZABETH

I love your statement....
“I have spent the last years trying hard to get both warm HiFi and detailed HiFi. My plan has been to chase the clarity, and worry about warmth later.“

Makes good sense.  I wish a dealer told me that. 

You have a lot going on in your system. Which components in your setup give you the warm HiFi?  Or is it a total end result.  Which is hard to do I imagine. 

People seem to really love their Magnepans.  I haven’t heard them yet. What do you love about the match up with them and Bryston?

Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Gumby on 1 Feb 2019, 11:02 pm
ELIZABETH

You said...

“Maria Callas at Milan.. It clearly is a radio broadcast, so it sounds like a warmish 1950's radio with basically just the midrange. But the recording is ELECTRIC.”

How do we find recordings with that electric feeling. Is it a take a chance hit or miss thing, reading reviews, following certain labels?   
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Gumby on 1 Feb 2019, 11:10 pm
GREYHOUND

Which source do you listen to the most?  Does your Luxman Dac give the added warmth?   

Do you find tubes make a real difference in adding that flesh and blood warmth?

Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Elizabeth on 1 Feb 2019, 11:51 pm
The components that are just whatever the music is...
Magnepan 20.7
Bryston 4B-SST²
Threshold FET10 (though this unit adds a bit of solidity to the bass)

The primary components that add greatly to the clarity (specifically these increase the clarity, where the above also let it show)
#1 of all: Furutech GTX duplex. particularly the Rhodium NCF duplex (I have 10 gold, 7 Rhodium Furutech all told in the system.) hese were a breakthrough. Added a few. wow, got me to add more, until I decided to replace all, even in the power conditioners.
The Pangea AC14XL power cords, The 34 ft and 42 ft extensions I use from a single 20 amp outlet for all power to my system Made of 12 gauge silver plated Teflon coated 600V MilSpec dual quads.
The pairs of resistors in the Magnepans add to the clarity and the warmth, The midrange resistors really are just to adjust the warmth I use Duelund CAST 2 ohm paired to give 1 ohm midrange, and  0.75 ohm for the tweeters, along with a home made choke of 31 turns of wire.

The Kimber KS interconnects add to the clarity and the solidity.

The primary factor which recently added exactly the warmth to my setup are two large refrigerator magnet whiteboard pads 1/2" under my CD changers I use. One via Toslink and one via RCA SPDIF to my Marantz SA-10 I have no basis to claim I understand what the magnet pads do. A mystery. And I would say for others,, unlikely to do what you want. (I am certain someone with no actual experience, and lots of homespun theories,  can explain it away.)

For years I wandered on the edge of 'too lean' sound. while seeking clarity. The magic gizmo that was breakthrough was the magnetic pads.
I bought a few more, but I have no idea if they can do anything more. Big mistake right ON the case..But at 1/2" under. good. Like I wrote, I doubt they would be magic anything for anyone else.

There is no easy finding the magic recordings except someone saying they thought this or that recording is great for some reason.
I wish I had bought way more of all the MFSL and DCC though... way back whey they came out.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: I.Greyhound Fan on 1 Feb 2019, 11:59 pm
GREYHOUND

Which source do you listen to the most?  Does your Luxman Dac give the added warmth?   

Do you find tubes make a real difference in adding that flesh and blood warmth?

I listen to digital most of the time because my vinyl (which is also geared to a warmer sound- Nagaoka MP-200 cartridge and a Bellari tube phono pre with a 1950's Raytheon Black Plate tube that transformed this budget preamp into something special) collection is limited due to an accident ruining most of my collection many years ago.  Now I try to buy only audiophile recordings.  I do prefer good vinyl over good digital.

The Luxman does give some warmth and bloom.   My BAT Vk51se gives some tube sound although it sounds more like a hybrid pre.  It does have a darker sound which I prefer.  I do feel that tubes do lend themselves to a more romantic mid range.  And for me, that's what is most  pleasing.  I did the whole neutral sound before but my tastes have changed.  I also use the music player Bug Head Infinity Blade and can tune the sound warmer or brighter.

You can call it colored but I don't care as it sounds good.  There is no way that you can say that your system sounds like the original recording unless you have the exact same gear that it was mastered with.

I too, like Elizabeth, have tried to get a warmer, yet detailed sound and have achieved it.  I added the Duelund 1.2 ohm resistors to my Magnepan 1.6 tweeters and if I want to go warmer I use Mills resistors.   My cables are also geared to a warmer sound and less sibilants.

Larry
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Rusty Jefferson on 2 Feb 2019, 12:30 am
  If a lot of rock, pop, new music , is recorded and mastered at a poor to average quality, then wouldn’t an entry level affordable System, sound better than a High-end, very Revealing Neutral  expensive System?
Yes, this music was produced to sound it's best in your car, and most of it still does. MANY recordings are still best enjoyed on a road trip. :D  Listen to the good stuff at home, and the crappy stuff in the car.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: toocool4 on 2 Feb 2019, 12:31 am
You can call it colored but I don't care as it sounds good.  There is no way that you can say that your system sounds like the original recording unless you have the exact same gear that it was mastered with.

Nothing wrong with coloured, if that is what you like just not for me.

If you read what I said which was “On my system everything comes across as close to the recording as possible” and yes I know what the original sounds like as I have friends who are musicians and I have heard the originals in the studio.

Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Gumby on 2 Feb 2019, 12:48 am
THANK YOU DIAMOND DOG ....

Man, my thinking is all wrong.  I have to stop what I’m doing.  For now, I’ll just keep buying music I love, until I figure this out.     This is why...

I just read this post from way back in 2011 and it hit me in the gut.   This is what I should want. 

What a killer post. 

FROM DIAMOND DOG

musical, musicality A personal judgment as to the degree to which reproduced sound resembles live music. Real musical sound is both accurate and euphonic, consonant and dissonant."  *
The important words there are..."A personal judgement"..
*http://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html


“OK, but that's often not how that word is defined when it's applied to audio equipment - " musical" is code for warm eg: Mac (IMO) where "detailed " is always hung on Bryston as an example because it typically does not exhibit that "warm" presentation. Does this make the Bryston amp less "musical " by the Stereophile definition? So let's run with the Stereophile " audiophile-approved" definition. When you go to hear live music, does everything sound all warm and cushy or do cymbals sound like what they are - a piece of metal being hit with a stick ? Can you hear the nuances of the guitarist using different pick attack angles ( think Billy Gibbons tossing in those eye-melting chirps in " La Grange " and is that "peso coin on steel strings" sound there for you to experience in all it's nastiness or is it lost in the warm and wooshy that according to the "reviewer " quoted in an earlier post most audiophiles prefer because it allows them to relax? Not all music is meant to relax you - a lot of it is meant to excite and challenge and thrill you. Which " La Grange" do you want to hear - the one which makes you want to pull your sombrero down over your eyes and slide into a siesta or the one which makes you want to get up on the cantina table and holler with your cerveza held high in the air? Which gear better expresses the music in the way that it was intended to be heard ? Which is the most "musical"? So why is the gear which provides the more authentic experience not referred to as the " musical" one? I still call "bullsh*t . And that Stereophile definition which tries to suck and blow at the same time is as irrelevant to me as the publication itself is at this stage.”
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Gumby on 2 Feb 2019, 01:26 am
TOOCOOL14

I understand what you mean now.....”“On my system everything comes across as close to the recording as possible”   

Warmth is not the goal.  CLARITY, as Elizabeth said, is the right goal. 

A song can be recorded with tons of cymbal smashing, guitar thrashing, vocal climaxes, but it doesn’t mean it was meant to sound punk or shrill.  A balanced system will reveal all the excitement in a song yet have such clarity and solidity that one can’t help but smile, or freak out, in a good way.

I’ve learnt more from this forum, in the past few days than I have from all the reviews, magazines, and dealer visits. 

Thanks guys and girls. 
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Mike-48 on 2 Feb 2019, 01:26 am
I agree, many older recordings sound better on a lower-fi system. That's what they were designed to be played on.

Still, if you arrange a better system so that it has a typical "target curve" declining nominally 1 dB/oct at the listening seat; has no peaks in the treble; and you have good acoustics in your room, many older recordings can be enjoyable, IMO, without sacrificing good sound. Whether the same is true of highly compressed modern releases is another question.

A tactic for dealing with some of this is to own gear with tone controls. Many can cause a slight loss of transparency when engaged, but you're not engaging them unless necessary, and in that case, the balance is in your favor.

One person's opinion.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: I.Greyhound Fan on 2 Feb 2019, 01:31 am
I definitely don't consider warm mushy or relaxed.  Euphonic, colored, yes. I just find it more pleasing.  I like a bit of bloom and a full rich mid range. I feel that warmer sounds are less fatiguing.   There is more body and soul.  More layers to the music and more texture. Now I find a slower sound or pace, PRAT to be more relaxing.  I had a marantz NA-11se DAC and it was way too fast paced for me.  Up until recently, I thought my Luxman DAC was about right in PRAT until I heard it compared to a Yggdrasil in my system.  The Yggy had nice PRAT and was just a bit faster than my Luxman which sounded lazy in comparison.  I found the Yggy's pace to be more pleasing.

It is all a matter of personal taste and perspective.

I definitely agree about tone controls, wish my gear had them.

Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: toocool4 on 2 Feb 2019, 08:13 am
I’ve learnt more from this forum, in the past few days than I have from all the reviews, magazines, and dealer visits. 

The only way to really learn is to listen to as many different systems as possible.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: veloceleste on 2 Feb 2019, 12:05 pm
Neutral and revealing. If information is on the recording, I want to hear it. If information isn't there, I won't miss it. You have to take the bad sometimes to reveal the good.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Gumby on 2 Feb 2019, 03:24 pm
ELIZABETH

The Furutech duplexes truly made a difference?   This tweak confuses me.  There’s hundreds of feet of power line going from our home plugs all the way back to city power.  That can’t be changed.   The last few feet in to our systems can make a difference?   Is it that proper plugs and power cables give clarity to what reaches the wall?

By refrigerator magnet whiteboards, do you mean those dry erase boards?   
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: S Clark on 2 Feb 2019, 03:38 pm
A good system is revealing of small changes, and yes, receptacles can and do make a difference.  Put a pillow behind your head when listening; it makes a difference.  Listen in the morning versus listening at night; it makes a difference.  Change the wiring in the amp, put a cutting board under a cd transport, get a haircut, etc.   Nearly everything has an effect.  Some are more driven to find every little thing that affects sound than others. 
I have never chased the ultimate sound.  It's too expensive, and exhausting.  But I have lots of gear that was close to top shelf 10 years ago. 
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Elizabeth on 2 Feb 2019, 04:34 pm
This is not the thread to debate AC duplex. There are thousands of posts, discussion sall over the internet that debate what you ask. go look there for answers.
For myself, I never cared much about AC power, and used nice good gripping Pass & Seymour 20 amp heavy duty duplex for many years. Finally after thinking maybe for years about an upgrade, but too cheap... The Furutech were on sale. So I bought three. wow, big plus. I bought a few more. better yet. So I went all in, once in a lifetime (so I tell myself, and they were on sale 1/2 off the GTX gold, 20% off the GTX. NCF Rhodium.)
At my amplifier AC I have two duplex. One Furutech GTX Gold, the other a Furutech GTX NCF Rhodium. I can hear the difference moving the amplifier cord from the gold to the rhodium or back.
All the duplex made a significant change, improving the clarity of my system. To where I could hear adding a brass (unplated) plug on one cord in the music. Bare brass, like a Wattgate, adds a layer of grunge in the upper mids.. So all that grunge was removed with all the standard duplex.

A dry erase board is a stand alone device. The refrigerator version has a magnetic back and is flexible, and clings to the frig. The important part is the MAGNETIC BACKING. near but not touching the bottom of the CD player. As I said.. the likely hood of this tweak doing anything positive for someone else is SLIM to ZERO. But it is cheap enough at $10 to $20. and if you don't like it, well then you got a frig whiteboard for the frig. I bought a 13" by 19" version off Amazon so the feet of the player would hold it down agains the shelf. I have also discovered the device makes the refrigerator QUIETER when they are stuck on the frig! So if you kitchen is open to the listening area like mine.. a few extra magnetic pads on the actual frig doors helps too.
https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Erase-Whiteboard-Sheet-Refrigerator/dp/B01LHNGMZ0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1549125148&sr=8-2&keywords=erasable+magnetic+board+for+refrigerator
And if you buy, look at the discount in the little windows next to the main picture for another 10% off for two.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: toocool4 on 2 Feb 2019, 05:08 pm
The Furutech duplexes truly made a difference?   This tweak confuses me.  There’s hundreds of feet of power line going from our home plugs all the way back to city power.  That can’t be changed.   The last few feet in to our systems can make a difference?   Is it that proper plugs and power cables give clarity to what reaches the wall?

I have the Furutech  Rhodium double wall sockets for my system and yes it does make a difference. Power cables? Well take that one with a pinch of salt, you need to try for yourself. A good regenerative power conditioner on the other hand, makes huge difference but again try it for yourself.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Gumby on 2 Feb 2019, 05:29 pm
ELIZABETH

Do the magnetic whiteboards also help other components or just CD players?
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Elizabeth on 2 Feb 2019, 05:39 pm
ELIZABETH

Do the magnetic whiteboards also help other components or just CD players?

I have not gotten that far. I would suspect it is very item dependent. I tried under a Conrad Johnson ACT2 preamplifier, but that also has 1" extra footers. which I would be loath to take away, since the CJ gets hot as a furnace. The mat at 1 1/2" away seemed to do nothing. Plus the reflective white surface was not good for the heat. So I removed it within half an hour.
I plan on trying one under other preamps. maybe under the Marantz SA-10/ When I get around to it. Within the next six months.. 'fer sure.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: john1970 on 2 Feb 2019, 06:34 pm
I prefer revealing and neutral so I can hear the details in the recording.  I can see why other might prefer warmer sound. 
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: maplegrovemusic on 2 Feb 2019, 07:20 pm
Depends on the mood . Tired listening I want warmth . other times give me all the detail . changes day to day . Best to have a few different amps , dacs , volume controls around for whatever mood I'm in .
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: HsvHeelFan on 3 Feb 2019, 03:06 am
I'm a revealing neutral guy over Warm.   

On recordings,  I'll take an electric performance, every time,  over a performance that just lays there.

One great example is recordings of music from "Victory at Sea".   I've got a CD of the late '50's recording with RCA Victor Symphony and Robert Russell Bennett conducting and the exact same charts performed by the Cincinnati Pops conducted by Erich Kunzel on Telarc.   

Yes, the Telarc recording is spectacular.  The RCA recording is so-so, but the RCA performance blows Cincy out of the water.  It's no contest.  When I want to hear "Victory at Sea",  I'll always pick the original recording.

HsvHeelFan
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: witchdoctor on 3 Feb 2019, 04:03 pm
  If a lot of rock, pop, new music , is recorded and mastered at a poor to average quality, then wouldn’t an entry level affordable System, sound better than a High-end, very Revealing Neutral  expensive System?

Yes an entry level system would be a better choice, why not save money if you are listening to poor recordings?

Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: witchdoctor on 3 Feb 2019, 04:04 pm
BTW, I'll take a mediocre "live" recording over a pristine studio recording 9 out of 10 times, YMMV.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Mike-48 on 3 Feb 2019, 06:12 pm
BTW, I'll take a mediocre "live" recording over a pristine studio recording 9 out of 10 times, YMMV.
+1 to that. Both the sound and the musicality often seem better. Live recordings give less chance for the engineering to generate an artificial sound, and zero chance to assemble a performance from separately recorded vocals, instrumentals, strings, etc.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Speedskater on 4 Feb 2019, 04:53 pm
There are some recording both old and new that will sound better on the original Bose loudspeakers than any hi-fi system.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: rollo on 4 Feb 2019, 08:07 pm
   I think that what we do not want is bright, lean, hard or over detailed. A linear sound. Proper tonality and harmonic structure shold be ones first goal. Images should be focused not blurry.
   There are components out there that give you that, just not inexpensive. See thru clarity with presence is all one needs.
Now saying that I prefer when I hear Live music in a warm room. Just easy on the ears. Can we have it all ? Yes with the right gear. I am a Tweek Geek and will tell you that if the gear does not give you what you want get different gear. Tweaking helps some however it is the component or synergy of such that makes it all gel. No tweak will change the character of a component enough.
  I use tweaks to further bring out what the component does NOT change it.


charles
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: rollo on 4 Feb 2019, 08:11 pm
  Elizabeth try hockey pucks under Frig. Helps. I use them under the washer a dryer as well.


charles
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Gumby on 4 Feb 2019, 09:42 pm
SPEEDSKATER

We used to use the Pro version of Bose 901 speakers.   In high school, we DJed dances in large gyms.

Most other DJs back then would show up with large bass bins, and stacks of PA speakers.   

We would install a single pair of Bose 901s on tall tripods, connected with Bryston Pro 4bs, 3bs, and that was our sound system. 

It sounded killer. People loved it.  I haven’t heard those 901s, since then, but I loved them.  The Bose of today is not the same thing. 

Remember how Hi Fi excited you as a teenager.  Hearing a system that blew your mind for the first time.  Miss those days.  Thanks for the memory trigger. 
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Gumby on 4 Feb 2019, 09:48 pm
ROLLO

Nicely put.  I use hockey pucks under all my gear.  Inexpensive and I like the look.

Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: dflee on 4 Feb 2019, 10:14 pm
So do ya have to freeze em to get em to work properly?

Don
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Gumby on 4 Feb 2019, 11:05 pm
DLEE

Yes, throw them in a pot of dry ice for half hour before listening. 
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Stu Pitt on 7 Feb 2019, 06:03 pm
I don’t buy into the whole line of thinking that poorly recorded music sounds better on a lower/bad system. Crap doesn’t cover up crap and make it less crappy. Listening to well recorded music on a good system and bad recordings on a bad system sounds equally nonsensical to me.

I’ve never cared for the “audiophile music.” It bores me. It puts me to sleep. Most of the stuff I listen to would be stuff audio snobs would turn their nose up to. I’ve had a salesman or two tell me there’s no point in spending money on a good system because my music is going to sound like crap no matter what I play it through. Neither one of them got a dime from me.

I’ve got a Bryston B60, Rega DAC, Project 1Xpression with Dynavector 10x5, and Audio Physic Yara Evolution monitors. Very good and revealing. About 90% of what I listen to is classic rock like Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath, thrash metal like Metallica and Anthrax, and 90s grunge like Nirvana and Pearl Jam. The other 10% is rap/hip hop and my daughters’ music while they’re dancing around.

All my stuff sounds better. Sounds far better than my warm and smoothed over NAD and PSB system. According to some people (in this thread too), it should sound best on my iPod, almost as good in my car, the NAD/PSB system should’ve sounded worse, and it should be unlistenable through my current system.

I guess I should sell off my system.

Side note - even the worst of the worst recordings sound better. I don’t think there’s a worse recording out there than the Misfits Collection 1. It makes Metallica’s St Anger sound like Dark Side of the Moon. Yet both of those albums sound better on my system than my iPod.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: rollo on 7 Feb 2019, 06:22 pm
So do ya have to freeze em to get em to work properly?

Don

  Oh Don. No but you need to put one in freezer.  :lol: :lol: Stu have I got lots of LPs for you. Just do not listen to them any longer. Now Cleassical, Jazz and Da Blues.


charles
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: Freo-1 on 8 Feb 2019, 02:03 am
  If a lot of rock, pop, new music , is recorded and mastered at a poor to average quality, then wouldn’t an entry level affordable System, sound better than a High-end, very Revealing Neutral  expensive System?


In a word, no.  A better system can and does often make all recordings sound better, even recordings that were not captured well.


My experience is that the speakers far and away make the largest difference with playback, along with the room that the speakers are playing music in.  Case in point:  My general purpose system has a pair of large German floorstanding speakers (T+A Criterion 160). They are very efficient (mid 90's at 1 watt), get down to 20 Hz, and they sound great.  I've tried a number of electronics with them, from a Yamaha receiver to current Mcintosh offerings (MCT80, D150, MC152), to custom tube preamp/power amps.  There is a noticeable improvement when stepping up from the Yamaha to the Mcintosh or tube amps, but the speakers still sound very good even with the Yamaha receiver (better than one would expect). 


The Mcintosh front end has a I2S interface from the MCT80 to the D150.  The improvement in sound quality is readily picked up by the listener with all recordings, from CD's that were not recorded well, all the way up to SACD which is processed via bitstrem from the MCT80 to the D150.   The MC152 is a very neutral and detailed power amp.  Although it is rated at 150 watts, it's actually more like a 200 watt amp.   


The major point is that when putting together a system, get the speakers sorted out IN YOUR listening environment.  Once that is achieved, the electronics selected should be based on one's budget that will drive the speakers to the user's desired listening levels. 



Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: G E on 9 Feb 2019, 05:41 pm
Great thread.

A system I had for many years featured Infinity Kappa 8 speakers and van Alstine electronics from the 1990’s.

Very musical and engaging and I listened for hours on end. Production quality of music did not seem to matter too much to my enjoyment.

But resolution of detail wasn’t so great. I heard things when listening in the car that I wasn’t getting in Man Cave #1.  So I set embarked on a major update. Major unhappiness followed as I tried to find the right path.

I got more detail but the midrange was hard and the highs could be piercing with the more poorly produced recordings.  Amps came and went. A van Alstine upgrade sounded awful.  I moved the Kappas to the rear channels replacing them with VMPS rm30 speakers up front.  Big improvement in resolution but didn’t draw me into the music.

Replaced amp with bryston 4bsst2 and it gave me more oomph but not happy with midrange. New morrow ICs and speaker cable provided a touch of honey but still not home.

I’d always wondered what it would be like to have 28’s in my system. And when one presses into their 6th decade of life on earth, one decides it’s now or never.

So I found a great pair on the used market and holy schmoley what a transformation!  Boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen, it was a WOW!!!! Moment and experience.

Along the way I abandoned digital playback and this has only heightened my enjoyment.  Well tempered Amadeus turntable. And last summer I made another dream come true when I got Hagermans Trumpet phono preamp. I tubed up with 1950’s vintage Mullard.

Perfect sound now?  No, crappy records still sound crappy but less so. But with my current equipment and acoustic treatment of room I can have incredible listening experiences and lesser material doesn’t end the session.

BTW, if there are any fans of The Blue Note Jazz records, Music Matters Jazz has reissued a bunch of them and they are the best sounding reproductions of music I have ever heard since my days of professional tape recorders at the radio station. Most highly recommended.

And thanks, Elizabeth, for starting this thread.
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: gberger on 9 Feb 2019, 07:50 pm
I have a firm foot in both camps.

I grew up on the edge of the Sonoran Desert,  well BS  (Before Stereo)- - no electricity - - so I listened to 78rpm Victor Red Deal 12" records on a wind-up Victrola. I loved them, and cut my classical teeth on those Red Seals. Now, I would rate the sound as restricted, and with almost zero dynamic range.

After WWII, I began building speakers, using JBL drivers, and building my own amplifiers. I was in  the US Air Force, so everything I owned had to be both small and transportable every couple of years.  AS (After Stereo), I quit building speakers and  began acquiring a series of monitors and electronics. I was weeded to tubes until the supply of KT88s started to come from Russia and decent 12ax7s became too expensive.   Switched to Solid State, and a new aural experience, as solid state and tubes clearly were different! Ouch.

We went through 78s, 45s, LPs, 10.5 inch reel-to-reel , and finally CDs - - each with its own aural signature. It was interesting to follow the sequence of recordings mastered by John Curl and the other control room geniuses. Recording techniques went from single mike to several mikes to multiple mikes placed throughout the orchestras. Soloists were picked up on single mikes, ending up with the ones now worn by the individuals.   Yeah, that certainly placed responsibility for quality recordings on the engineers and producers in  the control rooms.

After many years of listening both to live performances and recorded ones, I ended up retiring my AR3a monitors for a pair of Thiel CS 3.5 speakers, followed by my current Thiel CS 2.7 speakers and aSS2.2 Sub.  Amplifiers?  From Macintosh to CJ to Boulder to Bryston 4BSST2. Preamp from Macintosh to NAD to Bryston BP-6 and now to BP-26 and BP 17cubed. BCD-3 CD spinner.

For me, almost every step of the way since the 78 Red Seals has resulted in progressing from the over-melodic and dynamically-restricted to what I have today. With the 26, more dense and harmony. With the 17c, more accuracy and clearer upper mid and highs. For me, the preamp and CD spinner quality are what ultimately drive listener satisfaction.

My person reference for the ultimate aural experience? A VPO and Chorus performance of Berlioz Te Deum in the Musikverein a few years ago.

Just the random thoughts of someone who has been chasing Audio Niverna since 1948

   
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: G E on 9 Feb 2019, 08:10 pm


My person reference for the ultimate aural experience? A VPO and Chorus performance of Berlioz Te Deum in the Musikverein a few years ago.


This.  Can't beat the live performance in a great hall. 
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: brucek on 9 Feb 2019, 08:39 pm
Just the random thoughts of someone who has been chasing Audio Niverna since 1948


I've never been really satisfied with my audio equipment, but as I've aged I think my hearing has experienced an expected loss of fidelity, and this has made me much more accepting. I have a couple systems, but my main system is Bryston with ProAc 3.8 speakers.

I started out by playing around with 78's that were around the house, and then got into 45's with a little RCA Victor 45 record changer I picked up. I loved that thing, but only for the music. I didn't know or care about fidelity.

In the mid to late 1950's I remember being at a big city fair/exhibition where my Mom took me to this pavilion that had a demonstration of the newest thing in audio, called stereo sound.

They had a bunch of headphones hanging down from the ceiling that you would put on and listen to hi-fi stereo music. It was claimed to be the future of audio sound.

I wish I had a picture of my face when I lowered those bulky headphones onto my head.

I never heard anything so wonderful in my life. That's certainly where I became a crazy person obsessed with getting the best sound I could get.

I've gone through all the different mediums, and all the quadraphonic and multichannel nonsense. I still believe nothing beats stereo, although the stereo recordings today seem to be a lot more homogenized that years ago when they seemed to isolate the sound to the outside much more.

brucek
Title: Re: Go with Unrevealing Warm Hi Fi or Revealing Neutral Hi Fi
Post by: gberger on 9 Feb 2019, 09:06 pm
brucek

Gotta' agree,  earlier stereo recordings through headphones were an altering experience. The very few true binaural recordings were awesome.

I still use a set of STAX Lambda Pro headphones, late at night, to keep my neighbors from complaining about the Puccini operas on the Spinner.