AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => NuForce => Topic started by: rustydoglim on 9 Oct 2005, 06:45 pm
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We have more than 600 units of Ref 8 and 9 out there and inevitably there will be failures. When that happened to a reviewer's unit (see the 6moons review), it is even worst. There are many satisfying customers out there and it is expected that we only hear people reporting the problems. Every customers who reported problem to us know that we stand behind our product and fixed it in the most timely manner. We even paid for shipping :)
We decided to retroactively extend the warranty of Ref 8 and Ref 9 to 3 year parts and labor.
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We are very upfront about any problem and I think we'll be judged by how we resolved them and supported our customers. So here's more information about outstanding problems with the amps. Keep in mind that our products are in use at more than 20 countries within the last 6 months so there is a fair amount of data (and abuse :)) available.
The failure rate is about 6% including problems during the intial launch of our products from March to June. It is not the standaard that we want to maintain. So what are the failures and how do we plan to address them to assure customers that they will be able to enjoy the products for years to come?
We're still early in our development and some problems were discovered post launched. We didn't realize about the no-load overheating with the amp until it was launched in March 2005 and that's what caused some of the early failures. And in the rush to ship products, some circuit boards have been through minor re-work at the factory and that created quality issues. There are 3 known cases of "bad" preamp that has large DC offset (in one case, the preamp manufacturer acknowleded to the customer about the problem) and it kills NuForce amp. Lately, we discovered that in 2 incidents, if the source device connecting to the amp is turned off, the amp over-heated and failed. This is rare but we have since added a caution note in the instruction manual. Sure, there might be problem that we haven't discovered. That's the fact of life for any new company and new product. I have no excuse for it :).
By backing our product with 3 year parts and labor, customers are assured that in due time, if there is any problem with the amps, they will be discovered and fixed. We also back that up with our friendly and timely service. In most cases, we shipped the replacement amp immediately before we even investigated the problem. For every customers that have encounted problem, I can assured you that they are very happy with the way we handled it (otherwise you'll hear them complaining in audiocircle.com or other forums :)).
We use standard electronic parts and manufacturing processes so it is true that if the circuit board doesn't fail for a few months, it will work for a long time. One of my PC at home has been running since 1995 and I only shut it down when we are away from vacations.
Another point I want to make is that we intend to keep the same form factor for the circuit board in the same series so that customer can upgrade to the latest and greatest innovations in the coming years. The upgrade cost is estimated at 25% of the list price. Therefore, this makes it even more compelling for customer to purchase NuForce amp that is very close to some of the top amps in the world and knowing that within a year or two, we'll be right there in the "rarefied leagues" (borrowing the phrase from Srajan's review. When we get there, you can simply upgrade the circuit board.
Oh, when you upgrade the circuit board, you now have another 3 years of warranty coverage for the circuit board. WoW. Perpectually getting state of the art improvement and support :wink: Now you don't have to sell the amp every few years to get the latest and greatest.
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Nice to hear about the longer warranty period :D
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I can attest to the quality customer service provided by Jason. Although the amps didn't work out for me in my situation (grounding problems), Jason went the extra steps and sent 3 pairs of amps and picked up ALL the shipping etc... Great service ;)
Tony D.
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We are very upfront about any problem and I think we'll be judged by how we resolved them and supported our customers.
And that's an important thing. But as a dealer who wonders on and off about offering Nuforce, I've got some pointed questions. These are friendly in intent, I don't sell amps at the moment so I have no competing interest.
1) 6% failure rate. That's, well, ugly. Do you folk do something like a 200 hour burnin and test before you ship? If not, this might be the time to implement it. You're right that electronics tend to die either soon after manufacture or years later - but it's up to the manufacturer, IMHO, to make sure the early failures happen on his turf, not a customer's.
2) Amp self-destruct if source is turned off or handed a DC offset. That's very, very bad. People who automate their music systems sometimes have limited options concerning which components they can automate. And anything can blow a weak fuse and shut off. And this certainly means no one can comfortably leave their amp on all the time. Do you have a timeline for when this problem will be designed out?
3) Destruct at no-load. This is a killer. Some people use banana plugs and I have seen both pets and children take undue interest in playing with shiny cables and speaker connections. Again, any idea when this will be designed out?
I love the idea of a clean, inexpensive, moderate power amp with high efficiency. But I can't recommend this product as-is, because I can't recommend anything that has to go back to the shop, even for just 1 in 20 customers. Any idea when that will change?
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And that's an important thing. But as a dealer who wonders on and off about offering Nuforce, I've got some pointed questions. These are friendly in intent, I don't sell amps at the moment so I have no competing interest.
1) 6% failure rate. That's, well, ugly. Do you folk do something like a 200 hour burnin and test before you ship? If not, this might be the time to implement it. You're right that electronics tend to die either soon after manufacture or years later - but it's up to the manufacturer, IMH ...
Scott,
While you raise many valid points, maybe you should be asking those same questions to the vendors you already carry?
George
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Scott,
While you raise many valid points, maybe you should be asking those same questions to the vendors you already carry?
George
The only vendor I carry at the moment is VMPS. I'm comfortable with Brian's test, burn, return and service policies.
I don't resell amps, as noted. If I did resell amps, I've have started with Bryston amps, and I know their policies as well. That's one reason I recommend them, even though I don't make any money on it.
But not everyone wants to buy higher dollar amps, and Nuforce looks like a good line to carry someday. I'm just trying to get a feel for when someday is. It sounds like it might be Real Soon Now, so now's the time to ask.
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It sounds like many of the failures occured soon after the initial launch, rather than recently. I'd be curious to see the failures plotted vs. time, as that would be much more informative. Ideally, the such a plot would be made for each individual product, with revisions marked on the plot.
Of course, I'd love to see this data for any number of products from any number of companies, but the marketing guys almost never let the engineering guys release this kind of information... even when it looks good overall, there are always aberrations in such data, and that just confuses us poor consumers, after all! :lol:
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It sounds like many of the failures occured soon after the initial launch, rather than recently. I'd be curious to see the failures plotted vs. time, as that would be much more informative. Ideally, the such a plot would be made for each individual product, with revisions marked on the plot.
Wow, so would I. :-) Can you imagine dealing with a company that transparent? Of course, in My Perfect World, every company from toothbrush manufacturers on up would be legally required to provide such data.... we'd put a whole lot of charlatans out of business overnight. :-)
I'm not going that far, though. I just want Nuforce to say something like "yeah, we think this is shaken out, give us three months to see."
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I find it impressive to witness a manufacturer publicly acknowledge past and/or present challenges, especially with statistics. Additionally, I find it refreshing to deal with someone who is genuinely open to critique with the intent of taking that feedback and improving the product. I wish more companies, electronic and speaker manufacturers alike, were as responsive as Jason and the Nuforce team. It's not enough to create an engineering marvel if you don't have the passion and desire to support the end users who make the manufacturer's existence possible.
Back to the topic at hand, hats off to Nuforce for responding with a more appropriate warranty for a great product.
-KJ
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I knew that by disclosing yield problems we'll be subjected to questions. As I said, the failure number include all the initial problems and they are coming down rapidly.
For the most recently months, if there were any problems, it surfaced within the first few days. Usually that's due to
1) Soldering problem and it gets flushed out very quickly. More burn in time will help. But if this particular problem is only limiting to a few units, do we want to force everyone to pay for it? Managing yield and production QA is a balancing act. Regardless of how we do it over time, we want to ensure that customer is protected. Yes, we are increasing burn in time to improve yield.
2) A lot of the problems in the past have to do with no-load burn out. And that probably account for nearly 1/3 of the problems. Within the past 3 months, we only have 3 cases. This genearally happened to dealers or other manufacturers who frequently do demo.
3) There are a few other cases of burn out that we haven't identified.
Now put that in perspective. >600 units shipped to >20 countries in 6 months period. We should exceed 1000 units by year end :)
We are putting in over heating protection to shutdown the amps if such accident do happen.
I think by end of the year we'll be able to get the failure rate down to <2% and eventually go below 1%.
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The only vendor I carry at the moment is VMPS. I'm comfortable with Brian's test, burn, return and service policies.
I don't resell amps, as noted. If I did resell amps, I've have started with Bryston amps, and I know their policies as well. That's one reason I recommend them, even though I don't make any money on it.
But not everyone wants to buy higher dollar amps, and Nuforce looks like a good line to carry someday. I'm just trying to get a feel for when someday is. It sounds like it might be Real Soon Now, so now's the time to ask.
Bryston definitely has a unique warranty, making them a very safe brand to carry. I've never heard their amps in my system, but have heard mixed opinions from others.
Personally I wouldn't be scared off by Nuforce's 6% failure rate (likely decreasing anyway) as long as the manufacturer is willing to quickly rectify any problems. You just would need to let the customer know that in the unlikely event of a problem, they should contact Nuforce directly and they will receive expediated service and will not have to pay shipping charges. There should be plenty of good references available.
In fact, 6% doesn't seem all that high in this industry. My brand new JRDG 302/4 amp, which cost a fortune, arrived with one dead channel. Years ago the microprocessor volume control of an expensive Sonic Frontiers Line3 preamp went haywire, frying some of my Apogee ribbon drivers in the process. Two PS Audio Classic 150s (one demo, then a replacement from the factory) failed. I went through three PS Audio P1000 regenerators (new unit failed within a month, second unit worked but ran so hot even at standby it was a serious fire hazard, then a third unit failed). An Aragon 8008BB amp -- built like a tank -- died because of a failure of a 50 cent part inside. Even a BPT 3.5Sig had one outlet that was broken on arrival.
Speakers are another issue altogether. Unless properly packed in wooden crates, shipping damage is always a concern. Beyond that there should be no issues when buying new. Certainly a discriminating buyer (which is most of the high end customer base) will not be satisfied with cabinetry defects, bases that don't fit properly, improperly sized cutouts, drivers that have poor or intermittent electrical/mechanical connections or have the wrong impedance, cheap and ugly screws that strip their MDF holes, etc. In my opinion, some of this is forgivable in the price range of lower end models, but not at $5-20k, particularly given the current competition. I wouldn't think many spending that amount on loudspeakers wants to be opening them up and soldering, or concealing factory blemishes via furniture repair.
And unlike the munchkin Nuforce amps, heavy speakers won't be going back to the factory when the inevitable problems occur -- it is up to the owner to do the work themselves after receiving the appropriate parts.
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I use a Lexicon 5 channel amp that is really a Bryston 9B. I use this for my center and surrounds. I have my RM30C (center) biamped with the Bryston. (I use a Jeff Rowland for the mains.) While I've never used the Bryston on my mains, it certainly kicks butt for the centers and rears. I was listening to Blue Man Group, and the RM30C was kicking out the bass. I couldn't believe how much bass was coming from that speaker.
I haven't had a failure of new or used gear, although my Creek integrated just blew a fuse for some reason.
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As a consumer, a 6% failure rate (and very likely improving) doesn't bother me at all. The fact that NuForce makes all the information public and stands behind their products is very refreshing. I've had personal experience and read many posts on AC about various manufacturers who abandon their customers or are very tardy dealing with problems. I have had recent contact with one cable manufacturer recommended at AC who hasn't returned 2 recent emails after promising to contact me 2 weeks ago. Doesn't make me want to audition his cables anymore.
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Following up on the shipping comments, the Nuforce amps are packaged very well. Each amp is individually wrapped in a foam sleeve and separately boxed. The individual amp boxes are then wrapped in layers of bubble wrap surrounded by packing peanuts which is housed within yet another box.
:thumb:
-KJ
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We are very thankful of all the support from everyone. I just want to add that we are very determine to being the failure rate to <1% by next production (Nov). We have just added over heating protection to the amplifier circuit to shutdown the amp if accidents do happen (it already have over current and short circuit protection). And we are reviewing all QA processes to ensure quality and reliability. Every amp that leave the factory will now go through various measurement, reliability and listening test. We screen for SNR, FR, THD at various freq and power rating and reject units that don't meet the performance standard. Production testers have a track that they listen all day long to quickly spot problem. Burn in test will flush out soldering problem.
The amp will also leave the factory in a better packaging.
(http://www.nuforce.com/gallery/NuForce-new-box.JPG)
This just came in with a new batch of amps (sorry, all sold out already). Some customers could still receive amps in the brown box. If you like to get the new box (may be for future house moving use?), email support and we send you the boxes next month.
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Failure rate under 1%, that would be awesome! I use to work for a test & measurement company and we couldn't get our out-of-box-defect under 6%.
That's the great thing about a small company, changes can be made quickly.
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I think that people have to keep in mind that Nuforce is interested in customer satisfaction. No need to worry about failures if they back it up(which they do). They do it quickly also( I messed up my amps-my fault, and dropped them off, expecting to check back maybe later in the week. They asked what I was doing now. In less than two hours, my amps were fixed.) Now, I don't want to hold Nuforce to these unbelievable turn-around times, but that gives you an idea of how they want to satisfy their customers. Did you see that when you update, they give you a new 3-year warranty. Who does that?
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We are very thankful of all the support from everyone. I just want to add that we are very determine to being the failure rate to <1% by next production (Nov). We have just added over heating protection to the amplifier circuit to shutdown the amp if accidents do happen (it already have over current and short circuit protection). And we are reviewing all QA processes to ensure quality and reliability. Every amp that leave the factory will now go through various measurement, reliability and listening test. We screen for SNR, FR, THD at various freq and power rating and reject units that don't meet the performance standard. Production testers have a track that they listen all day long to quickly spot problem. Burn in test will flush out soldering problem.
Now we're getting somewhere! Nothing I like to see better than aggressive QA. :-)
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We are very thankful of all the support from everyone. I just want to add that we are very determine to being the failure rate to <1% by next production (Nov).
And idea when in Nov? How do the rates look, and when will you know?
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Amps starting from Oct 30 have gone through the most extensive QA. We have 100 units that passed "torture test" and followed by measurement test. Not a single failure during the test.
And we have shipped most of them out in the last 2 weeks. So far so good.
Jason
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Amps starting from Oct 30 have gone through the most extensive QA. We have 100 units that passed "torture test" and followed by measurement test. Not a single failure during the test.
And we have shipped most of them out in the last 2 weeks. So far so good.
Jason
0/100 is my kind of failure rate. I'm in. My application's in the email. :mrgreen:
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Don't celebrate so early :lol:
We still need to collect statistics from the field. And meaningful data will take a few months to collect and analyze. A amp has to survive not only thorough production tests, shipping abuse (by the time it reaches a someone's house, it could have been tumbled a 100 times :bounce: ) and extended use. So far so good.
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You could always speed things up by sticking it in the dryer for 2 minutes and retesting. If it survives that, it should survive UPS. :lol:
-KJ