BP26 Phono Section

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bacmsl

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BP26 Phono Section
« on: 6 Oct 2023, 04:30 pm »
I have a BP-26 that is about 15 years old with a phono section. Is their an upgrade this phono section? Is it different in design than the BP-2 apart from the power supply?
Thanks
Barry M

James Tanner

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #1 on: 6 Oct 2023, 06:20 pm »
Hi Barry - no changes - "tried and true"

bacmsl

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #2 on: 6 Oct 2023, 10:30 pm »
I can live with tried and true. Might be time to buy a new TT then : 8)

gene9p

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #3 on: 7 Oct 2023, 01:33 pm »
a different cartridge will change the sound you are not happy with more than a new table

bacmsl

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #4 on: 8 Oct 2023, 05:53 pm »
Well, I have an old Technics SL-7 Linear tracking with a P mount cartridge and what you can get in a P mount is very limited.

gbaby

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #5 on: 8 Oct 2023, 07:14 pm »
I can live with tried and true. Might be time to buy a new TT then : 8)

I have the BP-2 mm/mc along with a Rega P6 turntable with the Aria mc cartridge. It is time for you to buy a new TT. Prior to this, I did not own a TT for about 40 years although I had some 1,500 LPs. All were in mint condition so it was a good purchase for me. 8)

toocool4

Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #6 on: 8 Oct 2023, 08:28 pm »
There is always something better out there, but if you are happy with what you have why change.

If you are going to upgrade / change your turntable, I recommend getting something you can take home and try in your system that way you know if it’s going to work in your system / room or not. We all get the upgrade itch but do it for the right reasons.

bacmsl

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #7 on: 20 Nov 2023, 03:14 pm »
Question for the group. As stated I have an older BP-26 with the phono section. I just bought a Technics SL-1200G and I was looking at the high out put moving coil cartridges. I know there are jumpers under the hood of the BP and the question is, do I have to move the jumper from factory for the High Output cartridge. The other question I was wondering is will the High Output over load the moving coil section of the BP.

Thanks
Barry M

gbaby

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #8 on: 8 Dec 2023, 10:05 pm »
Question for the group. As stated I have an older BP-26 with the phono section. I just bought a Technics SL-1200G and I was looking at the high out put moving coil cartridges. I know there are jumpers under the hood of the BP and the question is, do I have to move the jumper from factory for the High Output cartridge. The other question I was wondering is will the High Output over load the moving coil section of the BP.

Thanks
Barry M

Simply google the manual for the BP-26. I tried to post it for you but I could not.

gene9p

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #9 on: 9 Dec 2023, 04:53 am »
looks like you choose an MC or MM by the switch in front..internally you have 16.5 or 22.5 db of gain...that's not much at all for an MC cartridge even a High Gain one. You need at least 40 db for an MM which some High Gain MC's are equal too. You can try it as is, but expect to crank up the volume..an external phono preamp would be a better choice, especially with a nice 1200 G. Plus you can use the settings on a separate to use the exact, or close to, the recommended settings for the cartridge. Otherwise you are wasting your time trying to get a cartridge to match the minimal settings of the BP 26. You got yourself a nice table, now get a good phono pre to get the best out of it.

Overload..not likely if what i read is correct on the MC gain choices..however most high out put MC's recommend using the MM of your phono preamp..so go with that..still remember your loading and other critical settings are not adjustable on the BP26 so you will be very limited.

bacmsl

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #10 on: 9 Dec 2023, 02:01 pm »
Good day gentlemen, thanks for the answers, observations, and evaluations. So after looking under the cover of the BP26 and finding the resistors that needed to changed for a 22.5 db signal gain, and talking with J.T., and a member of Bryston's tech support both by email and phone and getting answers and guidelines for what I would need for gain and signal boosting for my new cartridge which happen to be a Hana ML, I decided to just install and setup the tone arm and see what happens. To my complete surprise the gain, volume control was perfect. The volume worked as if I had a receiver connected to a input, I didn't have to turn it up anywhere near to what I thought I would have to do to get sound out of the system. This Hana cartridge is supposed to me a low output, .4 MV/1 Khz, and 7 ohms at 1 Khz. So now I am kinda scratching my head going WTF, it shouldn't have worked the way all the data is posted. But all is well that ends well. The only thing that I wonder about is the phono section of the BP26 because it is a 1995 design, and with all the changes in electronics and phono sections on the market I am wondering if I am getting all I can from this cartridge. But that will take a lot more hours of listening and thinking.
Thanks
Barry M

James Tanner

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #11 on: 9 Dec 2023, 02:43 pm »

gene9p

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #12 on: 9 Dec 2023, 11:05 pm »
it's a separate phono stage..something our friend should consider....if not yours, then some others out there. My Mac C2300 has an outstanding built in phono..but I still switch off to an older Musical Surroundings Nova..both have so much flexibility in settings to get the best out of your cartridge and of course , your system  :thumb:

James Tanner

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #13 on: 10 Dec 2023, 02:04 pm »
MM Phono Cartridge Loading Capacitor

Inductance (L), resistance (R) and capacitance (C), when all placed in parallel with one another, form a resonant LCR ‘tank’ circuit. As frequency increases, so does the inductance – it becomes more ‘resistive’. As frequency increases, the capacitance becomes less ‘resistive’.

At some high frequency a point will be reached where the combination of inductance and capacitance resonates – it will produce a large peak or ‘spike’ in the frequency response. The resistor however, dampens the spike – reduces its amplitude (its height). When balanced up nicely you get an up slope to a particular frequency, followed by a down slope – both slopes being equal. The rate of rise and fall is 6dB per octave.

When this circuit is used as the input of a phono preamp, the inductance is the phono cartridge – it’s also generating the electrical signal which is the music. The capacitance is made up of the arm cable wiring capacitance, plus a real capacitor in the input of the phono preamp. The resistor (quite often 47k) is a real resistor (or combination of values) also in the input of the phono preamp. The response graph you would see from this particular LCR combination would not be rising, peaking and falling, but will be flat, followed by a peak, and then followed by a down slope twice as steep, or -12dB per octave. How come it’s different? That’s because of the equalisation in the phono preamp.

If we know the inductance and the capacitance, we can work out the frequency where it slopes down. This frequency is where the electrical output is designed to start falling – the upper end of the phono cartridge frequency response. There is a simple physics formula for this . . . ƒR = 1/ 2pi sqrt LC
Classic values are 500mH for a MM cartridge, and 200 pico farads for the total capacitive load. This gives a frequency of 16 kHz, which was considered excellent when hi-fi was defined as anything having a frequency response of 30 Hz – 15 kHz.

So, how come MM cartridges have a frequency response reaching higher than 16 kHz? Well, from what we know, and we know that physics tells us it can only go to 16 kHz, it must be something other than being electrical – it must be mechanical. Therefore, it has to be likened to a ‘tuning fork’, and the stylus assembly must therefore mechanically resonate to basically ‘cheat’ the response. Going back to the electrical physics, we can see that by varying the cartridge inductance and load capacitance, the high frequency turnover point can be changed . . . For example, if the inductance were to be 400mH, the high frequency turnover will rise to nearly 18 kHz using the same 200 pico farad capacitance load.  If it were to be 600mH, it would become 14.5 kHz. By reducing the capacitance to 150 pf it would become nearly 17 kHz.

Because the vast majority of cartridges are 1] made to work with existing tone arm wiring capacitance plus phono preamp input capacitance – and that can add up to 200 – 300 pico farads, the sensible MM manufacturer will choose to make the cartridge inductance close to 500mH – plus or minus a little, and 2] because the output is close dependant on ampere-turns – how many turns of wire there is – it will follow that for a range of say 2mV to 10mV output, it’s going to end up as being in the region of 500 mH. As most tone arm cables plus internal wiring measures around 100 pf and most phono preamps use 100 – 200 pf, the total capacitive load is 200 – 300 pf. The manufacturer knows what the electrical high frequency limit it is going to calculate out at. He will therefore tune the mechanical resonance to reach as high as he can get it.

The question that usually gets asked is “what will happen if I use a cartridge specified for 400 – 500 pf into a phono preamp specified as having 100 pf input capacitance?”. Well, first you need to add the tone arm wiring and cable capacitance – that will be around 100 pf, making the total load 200 pf.

Then you have a difference of 200 pf. You can either try it like that and you may like the sound, and if you don’t you either need to add capacitance, or buy a phono preamp with different capacitive loading switches (but remember switches can go resistive through corrosion – they don’t last forever). You can also use an extension cable on the tone arm cable to increase capacitance.

But at what frequency do these differences take place and will you actually hear them? After all, the peak is damped by the resistance (the 47k). The frequencies are mostly going to be above 10 kHz with peaks or troughs of up to 2 dB. It is going to be very difficult for anybody in his/her 30’s to clearly hear much higher than say 16 kHz. It is going to be quite hard to tell the difference 2 dB is going to make.
The thing that could influence what you hear may be psychological – that being the specification said one thing and the phono preamp said slightly different.


gbaby

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #14 on: 10 Dec 2023, 07:05 pm »
Hi Barry

As far as 'old' is concerned - check this out.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/vinyl/turntable-accessories/bryston-bp2-20-mm-mc-phono-preamp-review/

james

This is what I purchased for my SP3, and I have not looked back. 8)

bacmsl

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #15 on: 10 Dec 2023, 08:42 pm »
Ok' so gbaby can you provide a little detail about your turntable and cartridge and what your thoughts are on the phono input.
Thanks
Barry M

gbaby

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #16 on: 11 Dec 2023, 02:57 pm »
Ok' so gbaby can you provide a little detail about your turntable and cartridge and what your thoughts are on the phono input.
Thanks
Barry M

Hello Barry. I have a Rega P6 turntable with an Ania moving coil cartridge. It tracks so well that I almost never hear pops and clicks. It is extremely quiet and sometimes, its so quiet, I think I am playing a CD. I have played even scratched records, but I barely hear pops and scratches. The sound is completely neutral. When I change inputs, the sound is at the same volume as the turntable source so its highly compatible with Bryston's pre-amps or processor.  8)

gbaby

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #17 on: 11 Dec 2023, 06:05 pm »
Barry, I forgot to mention that I get plenty of gain or volume using the BP-2 mm/mc phono pre-amp.

gene9p

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Re: BP26 Phono Section
« Reply #18 on: 11 Dec 2023, 09:12 pm »
my back up TT..kinda retired now..is a Rega P3-24 with the 303 arm from the P6 amongst many other upgrades I did on the table....Rega's TT's are simple to set up and are great sounding even with their own cartridges.