AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: James Tanner on 11 Jul 2018, 12:35 am
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http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6236
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I am surprised the guy says it is 'simply not possible' for the power cords to increase the (apparent) my added word)) volume increase.
So the guy decided by theory it was impossible and the actual experience that he himself actually experienced (and thought wa a trick?) gets zero credit.
IMO that is exactly what is wrong with EE types. They will say theory says it is impossible. so, for them, it IS impossible. Period. end of story.
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Louder...Loudness. We have to be careful when we are discussing these things. Loudness is something that you 'perceive' and is subjective and related to your central auditory nervous system.
SPL and decibel reading is objective. It's based on the pressure (amplitude).
When we say something appears louder, it's good to know whether something appears louder due to an actual increase in amplitude or if it's an effect of something else like auditory masking.
Turning the volume on the amplifier increases the decibel and we perceive it as louder. On the other hand, for example with digital sources (noise, hash, jitter)...I often find that different inputs or sources can come off as 'louder' vs. 'softer' or "in my face" vs. "laid back." If you measure the SPL it will be identical for all purposes. The difference will lie elsewhere such as auditory masking.
Take Vovox unshielded mic cable as an example. I know a lot of Vovox users find them as louder than the rest (Mogami, Belden). When you measure them, they have identical levels of the signal. However, when you start looking at noise rejection, you can find differences there.
If somebody measures that 2 functional power cords have a difference of 2-3 db, I'd be very skeptical. I do wonder about the effects of shielding and ground loops...
Pressure/amplitude and frequency = the objective thing that we perceive.
Loudness = function of our auditory system, something that we perceive and therefore subjective
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I think the difference is in the distortion, or with the fancy powercords. the lack of distortion.
I agree there can be no magical wand waving. It has to be right there.
So if the music is just being repeated, and the equipment is untouched, no volume change.. etc.
Only the powercord is changed.
Well consider the sound as 100% of whatever it is. Not just the music, but the distortion artifacts. So ALL the sound created by the system is say 100%
As a made up system, lets say it has a source, a preamp, and an amp. A cord for each. (plus speakers which usually don't get a powercord)
And say with the stock cord the distortion in the AC from the wall is 4%
Typical!
SO we can also posit the power supply of each component reduces the distortion to 25% of what it was/SO now with stock powercords the source passes 1% into the music the preamp 1% and the amp 1%. So with this made up notion, the 100% of noise generated by the system includes 3% of junk. and 97% music.
With the aftermarket powercords, they alone reduce the distortion from the wall to say 1%.(these are HIGH END $$$ cords, and a guarantee that is what they do)
So now the source cuts that to 25% of whatever it was (typical way it works) and so each of our components now produces 0.25% added garbage to the music. or a total of 0.75%
And thus if the noise total has to be 100% (and it DOES) then 2.25% MORE music is hearable from the system with the fancy powercords. And so it Does sound louder, and the music is louder. (while the distortion and garbage is less)
Magic/logic?
Thank you.
Now the EE guys may come and argue the percentages, they cannot ague the logic.
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I think the difference is in the distortion, or with the fancy powercords. the lack of distortion.....
....Now the EE guys may come and argue the percentages, they cannot ague the logic.
Logic?
Distortion would be added to the signal, making the result louder, wouldn't it?
So, a superior power cable—one that lacks distortion by your definition—would be quieter, not louder, wouldn't it?
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Hi Elizabeth,
Putting the number and percentages aside, I am confused by the logic and assumptions you are making. I feel lost.
I use a Torus for example, but for this discussion let's exclude the presence of any power conditioners, isolation transformers, or regenerators. We are connecting various power cables to the wall directly (behind which is running generic 14 or 12AWG depending on the circuit). People run many meters up to that point in the wall. Then people connect 3-6 feet of wire to that added wire in the wall. That wire is part of the series. Regardless of the cable used in that final run, the wire which is passive cannot reduce the noise present on the line. I'm confused by your use of 'distortion.' What's the distortion you are talking about specifically? I will give you that the shielded cables can help with how much they radiate and if that can have an impact on local noise near the rack.
I'm confused about what 'distortion' these cables are handling differently? Can you clarify? Thanks.
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The predominant change that many report (subjectively) with upgraded power cords/conditioners, is a lower noise floor. This means that more details emerge from a quieter background, on well-recorded discs. One should then be able to enjoy their music at lower volume settings than before. So, I don't know how these upgrades would make the volume of playback louder. In my system, I effectively listen at lower vol settings, while gaining more details and thus more musicality.
Typically, power supplies and other internals of high-perf amps and sources contribute very little measured distortion ("THD", etc) to the analog output signal, usually less than 0.05% as quoted by mfrs like Bryston. And these are measured with no-frill stock power cords.
Just sayin'.
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Mostly I was trying to say that a apparent louder music could be due to an actual thing. Anyway, I know that most EE guys will not accept that a pc can do anything but pass the power.
The main thing I wonder is did a drag this thread off on a tangent? I wonder where James thought it would go?
Aside from the mystery of apparently louder, the interaction, to me, was the usual two guys bickering. Maybe there was some other interesting things in it, but I didn't see it.
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Whenever I mention "oxygen-free" copper wiring to my EE colleagues, they say they've never heard of it, and roll their eyes like this :roll: :roll:
I don't blame them.
:popcorn:
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Mostly I was trying to say that a apparent louder music could be due to an actual thing. Anyway, I know that most EE guys will not accept that a pc can do anything but pass the power.
The main thing I wonder is did a drag this thread off on a tangent? I wonder where James thought it would go?
Aside from the mystery of apparently louder, the interaction, to me, was the usual two guys bickering. Maybe there was some other interesting things in it, but I didn't see it.
Hi Elizabeth
I have always felt that there was too much smoke and mirrors in audio and I respect Mark for challenging the status quo and being suspicious of the audio dogma we are sometimes seduced by at these demos . I have been involved in may blind tests and you learn a lot about your presuppositions and beliefs.
An example is I like the fact that Mark admits after doing his blind tests with his own recorded sample files he was surprised that most could not tell the difference between standard red book 44.1 and hi-res files. That's a total about face for him and hi-res is something he truly promoted and believed in ... BUT after the tests had to admit he is questioning his own assumptions - I like that and it shows an open mind and a willingness to rethink his belief system.
james
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I am surprised the guy says it is 'simply not possible' for the power cords to increase the (apparent) my added word)) volume increase.
So the guy decided by theory it was impossible and the actual experience that he himself actually experienced (and thought wa a trick?) gets zero credit.
More likely the line voltage changed. Over the course of a month or two, my line voltage ranges from 113 to 126 Volts. Another possibility is that one of the line cords was defective. (one day I measured the line cords in my spares box with an expensive Ohm-meter, some were nowhere near the value I expected.
IMO that is exactly what is wrong with EE types. They will say theory says it is impossible. so, for them, it IS impossible. Period. end of story.
You need to stop putting words in other people's mouths.
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IMO that is exactly what is wrong with EE types. They will say theory says it is impossible. so, for them, it IS impossible. Period. end of story.
Wrong ...... if it's still in the 'theory stage' then 'possibilities' still exist. You apparently are confused between theory and actual laws of science. Therefore that is what's wrong with 'Audiophile Types' !
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Hmmm, okay perhaps I wasn't clear with my inquiry, so I'll incorporate some of the responses above into this.
1) We aren't talking about power conditioners or regenerators in this example. They are not being used specifically in this case. Just standard 'power cords' without any active elements from the wall to the equipment.
2) If the power cable is somehow not able to give the proper voltage or you think it's cheap, you can easily find a 14 AWG or a 12 AWG power cable. If the wire behind the wall is 14 AWG, then a 12AWG power cable even if not fully made to 12 AWG would still be good for 14 AWG. Also, DACs, preamps, digital players and other sources do not require anything close to 14 AWG. It's only the amps and power conditioner that do. I can't see voltage drop in that final cable being a legitimate concern if you overkill it. Plus, take a look at the wire behind the wall.
3) Noise floor and distortion with different power cords (remember, no power conditioners are being used): Is the claim that different power cords in that final leg can make a difference to the noise that is already on the line. As I've said, I can understand how the shielded cables can stop the radiation to interconnects. However, I don't understand if the argument that is is being made here is that the last 3 feet can change the noise that was already present on the wire until the wall.
What am I missing here? Am I not clear with my questions? Somebody dumb it down for me.
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Wrong ...... if it's still in the 'theory stage' then 'possibilities' still exist. You apparently are confused between theory and actual laws of science. Therefore that is what's wrong with 'Audiophile Types' !
:thumb:
TG for science. In everything, not just audio.
Sadly, denial of the realities of science and Nature seems to be on the rise in some places.
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I'm all for science. At least there is an attempt to understand the natural world.
But all you have to do is watch the programs on Dark Matter & Energy to realize how little we actually know about what's around us.
The remarkable thing about the human brain is it's ability to create all this technology and still not know how it all really works. Very cool for sure. :thumb:
And there are no laws of physics. It's all theory! :nono:
Gene
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And there are no laws of physics. It's all theory! :nono:
Gene
well I'll be darned ........and all along I thought it was 'Ohm's Law' not 'Ohm's Theory' !
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Nah! Ohm's Law is so simple. It makes it seem more authoritative to call it a Law. I wonder if old Mr. Ohm was still around when they declared him a genius and gave him his own Law. :thumb:
What about old Uncle Albert: they're still called Special & General Relativity Theories, right?
Gene
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What about old Uncle Albert: they're still called Special & General Relativity Theories, right?
Gene
Yes, Bertie keeps being proven right, after all these years. Beyond Relativity, too. Black Holes, etc
Really demonstrates the power of creative reasoning, and a damning rebuttal of religion-motivated superstition and dogma. Very humbling.
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That man's mind was different, that's for sure.
Gene
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The key take away is that Mark actually measured an increase in SPL when the swap was made. See link below.
http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6223
While we subjectively experience many things in the course of pursuing our hobby the biggest problem is that you can't, by measurements alone, determine what will sound good. That's why you actually have to listen to the circuit in order to catch the mistake before it gets out the door. I have experienced many things which improve or degrade the sound of a system over the years and in many cases they defy an explanation via measurement or simplistic explanations based in scientism.
When a piece of equipment is well designed a minor change in wall voltage will not result in a change of gain in the component. A change in gain was what had to have happened when the measured SPLs increased with the change in power cords.
The easiest explanation is that the volume control knob was moved to increase the system SPLs resulting in an easy to hear false impression of a dramatic improvement. Occam's Razor anyone.
Scotty
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The key take away is that Mark actually measured an increase in SPL when the swap was made. See link below.
http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6223
The easiest explanation is that the volume control knob was moved to increase the system SPLs resulting in an easy to hear false impression of a dramatic improvement. Occam's Razor anyone.
Scotty
...and it is very well known that a small increase in level is always perceived as sounding 'better'.
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That man's mind was different, that's for sure.
Gene
Fact: Hedy Lamarr invented WiFi.
https://www.marketplace.org/2017/11/21/tech/inventor-changed-our-world-and-also-happened-be-famous-hollywood-star
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I am surprised the guy says it is 'simply not possible' for the power cords to increase the (apparent) my added word)) volume increase.
So the guy decided by theory it was impossible
IMO that is exactly what is wrong with EE types. They will say theory says it is impossible. so, for them, it IS impossible. Period. end of story.
I think the difference is in the distortion
:lol:
https://www.google.com/search?q=theory+vs+fact&oq=thepry+vs+&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j0l5.6566j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=theory+vs+fact&oq=thepry+vs+&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j0l5.6566j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
p.s. getting caught red handed for fraudulent behavior creates some very funny reactions from believers lol
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Yep. But anyone that good-looking definitely shouldn't be inventing anything! :green:
I'm talking about Hedy!!!
Gene
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...and it is very well known that a small increase in level is always perceived as sounding 'better'.
Yes, this parlor trick works with no level increase, so a whopping 2db is very poor magicianship from this vendor. Just plain sloppy.
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My long previous post appears to have been censored. A "theory" in science is not some sort of advanced type of speculation that seems pretty good but is short of being a fact. This is a common misconception of the general public, where "theory" is often interpreted to mean "educated guess." A scientific "theory" is a framework of concepts, supporting data, and successful predictions. All of the things the Bryston engineers measure when they design circuits -- voltage, amperage, resistance, inductance, capacitance, db levels, etc., etc. -- are part of the "theory" of electronics. But most of you don't doubt for a second that these are valid concepts. There is a zero chance that they will be disproved in this universe. When Mr. Waldrep says "theory," he's not suggesting for a second that he's talking about anything short of a fact.
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And everyone's reality is what they perceive.
Gene
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Certainly, I agree
And everyone's reality is what they perceive.
However, most peoples perceived reality will not render null the subconscious consensus reality of those around them.
Which why Ohms law holds true and stepping in front of a moving Greyhound bus may still kill you. :wink:
Scotty
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I am surprised the guy says it is 'simply not possible' for the power cords to increase the (apparent) my added word)) volume increase.
So the guy decided by theory it was impossible and the actual experience that he himself actually experienced (and thought wa a trick?) gets zero credit.
IMO that is exactly what is wrong with EE types. They will say theory says it is impossible. so, for them, it IS impossible. Period. end of story.
Excuse me? The "EE types"? What the heck is that? If you knew 1 % the stuff electrical engineers are bound to learn and apply in everyday practice, you would have more respect for them and the responsibility engineering in general means.
What are we talking about here? Power cords that remarkably nullify everything that affects the flow before it reaches the AC outlet? Well, good for them. If such super-conductors existed at real-world prices, they would find application in every imaginable industry, the last of which would be the fashion industry this audiophile business has turned into.
As for the "EE types", your post is unbelievably wrong on so many frotnts that I am really having trouble responding to it on the same level. Let me put it this way; If I was a structural engineer who designed cable-suspended bridges, then it is fair to say I know something about the bridge I design, how it behaves in certain environmental conditions etc., even if I will never actually walk across that particular bridge. On the other hand, someone like you would persist on knowing more about that bridge just because you did walk across it and at the same time, you could be a gardener. No offense intended towards you gardeners out there.
Well-shielded conductors of adequate cross-section surface area will be indistinguishable from one another.
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Kudos to Dr. Weldrep for taking the simple step that the demonstrator should have done on their own. I'm not an EE (only a chemical engineer, I'm afraid), but my basic understanding of how power supplies work has left me puzzled and skeptical of these extremely expensive power cords that magically make a difference in the audio performance of any gear. I gave up reading much of the audio press because it was just too astounding to read articles recommending things like high-end ethernet cables or quantum signal enhancers for improving sound.
Trust your ears is ok advice, just keep in mind the senses are easy to fool.
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Excuse me? The "EE types"? What the heck is that? If you knew 1 % the stuff electrical engineers are bound to learn and apply in everyday practice, you would have more respect for them and the responsibility engineering in general means.
What are we talking about here? Power cords that remarkably nullify everything that affects the flow before it reaches the AC outlet? Well, good for them. If such super-conductors existed at real-world prices, they would find application in every imaginable industry, the last of which would be the fashion industry this audiophile business has turned into.
As for the "EE types", your post is unbelievably wrong on so many fronts that I am really having trouble responding to it on the same level. Let me put it this way; If I was a structural engineer who designed cable-suspended bridges, then it is fair to say I know something about the bridge I design, how it behaves in certain environmental conditions etc., even if I will never actually walk across that particular bridge. On the other hand, someone like you would persist on knowing more about that bridge just because you did walk across it and at the same time, you could be a gardener. No offense intended towards you gardeners out there.
Well-shielded conductors of adequate cross-section surface area will be indistinguishable from one another.
R. Daneel, you have to know by now that arguing with believers is no different than arguing with any religious believer. There is no possible route to your conversion of that person to the facts. Audio hobbyists aren't interested in your science.
Yes, you and I may know that there is no advantage in using a heavier gauge wire than presently in use between your electrical service panel and your wall outlet. The standard gauges provide all that is required (i.e. 12 gauge = 20 amps). We also may know that shielding a power cord is pointless since the circuits that deliver AC power to your components are indeed the lowest impedance circuits in your entire audio system. As a result of this very low impedance, there is absolutely no need for shielding of any type to either contain RFI within a power cable or to prevent RFI from entering a power cable. And if you foolishly felt shielding was needed, then of course you would need to shield all AC cables back to the electrical generation plant for such a scheme to have any therapeutic effect. We also know that all copper wire (even that used to wire your house) is free from oxygen down to the “sixth decimal place” (99.999999 pure copper), so any discussion in that regard is marketing at its worse.
You only have to look as far as the stock power cable offered by Bryston in their box. If they felt that after all that engineering they put into their amplifiers would be held back by the stock cable, would they not spend a dollar or two upgrading that cable to release the hounds? No, they understand that the stock cable realizes the optimum capabilities of that amplifier.
R. Daneel, you have to let audio enthusiasts enjoy their hobby, and yeah it's tough when they claim volume increases with power cords, but hey, it's just fun. Let it go. :)
brucek
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182604)
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:thumb: +1 :thumb:
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R. Daneel, you have to know by now that arguing with believers is no different than arguing with any religious believer. There is no possible route to your conversion of that person to the facts. Audio hobbyists aren't interested in your science.
Yes, you and I may know that there is no advantage in using a heavier gauge wire than presently in use between your electrical service panel and your wall outlet. The standard gauges provide all that is required (i.e. 12 gauge = 20 amps). We also may know that shielding a power cord is pointless since the circuits that deliver AC power to your components are indeed the lowest impedance circuits in your entire audio system. As a result of this very low impedance, there is absolutely no need for shielding of any type to either contain RFI within a power cable or to prevent RFI from entering a power cable. And if you foolishly felt shielding was needed, then of course you would need to shield all AC cables back to the electrical generation plant for such a scheme to have any therapeutic effect. We also know that all copper wire (even that used to wire your house) is free from oxygen down to the “sixth decimal place” (99.999999 pure copper), so any discussion in that regard is marketing at its worse.
You only have to look as far as the stock power cable offered by Bryston in their box. If they felt that after all that engineering they put into their amplifiers would be held back by the stock cable, would they not spend a dollar or two upgrading that cable to release the hounds? No, they understand that the stock cable realizes the optimum capabilities of that amplifier.
R. Daneel, you have to let audio enthusiasts enjoy their hobby, and yeah it's tough when they claim volume increases with power cords, but hey, it's just fun. Let it go. :)
brucek
I apologize for my temper.
One of my friends who's in sales has a saying; if someone is waving money in the air like a kid who's found his daddy's gun, take his money before he hurts himself with it. I wish I was a salesman like him. he doesn't need to rely on Science, only the ignorance of his fellow-man.
Cheers,
Antun
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Who cares? You guys have your faith in what you were programmed to believe. And the folks who can hear differences in wire FROM ACTUALLY TRYING THEM (which is what scientist do)
SO all the flapping of gums? who cares.. All you are doing is convincing YOURSELVES that "you have to be right, (Because you yell the loudest?)
Clearly on this site, the naysayers are in control. They gang up and think that because they all cheer in unison it make them right. Again, you whining does nothing to convince anyone who actually can hear.
Of late I bought a pile (eight to be exact) new 'better' powercords. Same brand as old, just a upgraded version. And have been 'tuning' the system with them to find just the right placement for them.Some new clearly are better SOUNDING in some locations. Some locations the old cord is better SOUNDING. So I listen and play music, and then swap a cord to change the sound slightly, and see which I like best. This all is, naturally ridiculous to you guys.
So while I laugh at the antics and claims made by 'nonbelievers'. (and you do exactly the same) I already know you will never learn anything from these 'discussions' and you also know you will never convince anyone on my side either! So basically all we are doing is waving flags and shouting slogans at each other across a great divide. (the one odd part of it is every once in awhile one of YOUR side actually finds out they can hear differences, and they join my side LOL) I enjoy my system. Please enjoy yours too. in your own way.
I am perfectly happy you do what you think is right to have good music.
This is a hobby, and it is to enjoy ourselves. So go enjoy YOUR own system in ways you like, and allow ME to enjoy my system and do with it what I like to do.
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I already know you will never learn anything from these 'discussions' and you also know you will never convince anyone on my side either! I enjoy my system. Please enjoy yours too. in your own way.
So what is there to "learn"?
That cables act as tone controls? That's old stuff.
That it's easy to get suckered by marketing? Not exactly new, either.
cheers
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(https://i.gifer.com/5dQx.gif)
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Who cares? You guys have your faith in what you were programmed to believe. And the folks who can hear differences in wire FROM ACTUALLY TRYING THEM (which is what scientist do)
SO all the flapping of gums? who cares.. All you are doing is convincing YOURSELVES that "you have to be right, (Because you yell the loudest?)
Clearly on this site, the naysayers are in control. They gang up and think that because they all cheer in unison it make them right. Again, you whining does nothing to convince anyone who actually can hear.
Of late I bought a pile (eight to be exact) new 'better' powercords. Same brand as old, just a upgraded version. And have been 'tuning' the system with them to find just the right placement for them.Some new clearly are better SOUNDING in some locations. Some locations the old cord is better SOUNDING. So I listen and play music, and then swap a cord to change the sound slightly, and see which I like best. This all is, naturally ridiculous to you guys.
So while I laugh at the antics and claims made by 'nonbelievers'. (and you do exactly the same) I already know you will never learn anything from these 'discussions' and you also know you will never convince anyone on my side either! So basically all we are doing is waving flags and shouting slogans at each other across a great divide. (the one odd part of it is every once in awhile one of YOUR side actually finds out they can hear differences, and they join my side LOL) I enjoy my system. Please enjoy yours too. in your own way.
I am perfectly happy you do what you think is right to have good music.
This is a hobby, and it is to enjoy ourselves. So go enjoy YOUR own system in ways you like, and allow ME to enjoy my system and do with it what I like to do.
+1 :thumb:
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Of late I bought a pile (eight to be exact) new 'better' powercords.
Terrific. So after all the hand waving, red herrings, projections, etc, etc. all you have to do is demonstrate a measured (vs imagined) 2-2.5db difference between any 2 of them, simply by exchanging them, rather that tweaking the volume like a shyster would. Because that is exactly what Waldrep and another person did, measure a 2-2.5db difference in intensity and what this thread is about.
We await your evidence, thanks. That would confirm that peddlers do indeed know more than the EEs do, believe me.
cheers,
AJ
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This is a great hobby, isn't it.
But come on man, we can't all be right, can we???
Or can we! :green:
Gene
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All I know is when I listen to my music I smile and when I look at Hedy, I really smile! :thumb:
Gene
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While I don't agree with Elizabeth's BELIEFS, she does have a point. This has all become a "religious" argument with neither side likely to convince the other. Despite the attempts of the objectivists (science/engineering believers) to PROVE to the experientialists that there is no way that a power cord or other such tweak can make a significant audible difference, they remain unconvinced. We should be more laissez-faire about the whole thing. If people want to spend their money on cables and such, so be it. Let them. It is their money and we should allow others to do whatever increases their personal enjoyment, without casting aspersions on their intelligence, hearing, etc.
Unfortunately, the industry has reached a situation where most of the components are so expensive that to attempt a tweak (even in some cases a $1000 tweak) is still less expensive than replacing a major component. And some of us in our never-ending quest to replicate sound perfectly will always be seduced by something that is purported to improve the sound at a "more moderate" (whatever that means) cost.
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All I know is when I listen to my music I smile and when I look at Hedy, I really smile! :thumb:
I more than smiled, I laughed seeing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo)
Demonstrations can be more than they appear, apparently. :wink:
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Despite the attempts of the objectivists (science/engineering believers) to PROVE to the experientialists that there is no way that a power cord or other such tweak can make a significant audible difference
That's another red herring. No intelligent person tries to prove a negative (and thus don't). The entire burden of proof lies with the peddlers/believers to explain a 2-2.5db measured increase in intensity.
If one bothered to read Waldreps article, the audibility part between the cable swaps was well established. It's the non-imaginary reason behind it that was in question.
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This is a hobby, and it is to enjoy ourselves. So go enjoy YOUR own system in ways you like, and allow ME to enjoy my system and do with it what I like to do.
:thumb:
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This is a hobby, and it is to enjoy ourselves. So go enjoy YOUR own system in ways you like, and allow ME to enjoy my system and do with it what I like to do.
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Obviously this is not a hobby, it is an obsession. Why else would anyone argue about which POWER CORD (yes a PC) SOUNDS better!!! :scratch:
Gene
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Despite the attempts of the objectivists (science/engineering believers) to PROVE to the experientialists that there is no way that a power cord or other such tweak can make a significant audible difference, they remain unconvinced. We should be more laissez-faire about the whole thing. If people want to spend their money on cables and such, so be it. Let them. It is their money and we should allow others to do whatever increases their personal enjoyment, without casting aspersions on their intelligence, hearing, etc.
I would propose a more accurate term would be "experientialist," that is, experience is the only source of knowledge. An experimentalist would seek to objectively measure and collect reproducible, verifiable data. My experiment demonstrates nothing if the same data cannot be duplicated by other people.
And now I see I misread and indeed you wrote experientialist .. sorry! I just repeated what you said.
Hobbies should be fun, and challenging people's intelligence or name calling is silly and can't be justified. If you personally experience happiness from changing out power cords, don't let some invalidate your enjoyment with comments on measurements. However, enjoyment and reproducible experimental data are two very different things!
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By Mark Waldrep
A couple of weeks ago I wrote an article about an event that reported on some of the nonsense demos that happen at trade shows (you can visit the article by clicking here). I deliberately avoided naming the salesperson who demonstrated the “benefits” of expensive — very expensive — power cords and the name of his company out of respect for the hosts. His demo produced audible/measurable increases in the amplitude of identical music selections. A result that is impossible according to the laws of physics. Electrical engineers and those with even a casual knowledge of how electrical circuits and power supplies work know that a heavy twisted cable worth thousands of dollars cannot — and should not — increase the plus and minus voltages needed by the various circuits in the equipment in question.
Sadly the above requires basic reading and science comprehension, lest it be misinterpreted.
Nothing to do with hobbies, preferences, straw or herrings.
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Completely off track, Just wanted to say I hope James understands allowing contentious topics to run on his circle tarnishes the brand Bryston.
Folks get angry and that connection of anger/Bryston remains.
This is why Women usually leave sites, the fights just tarnish the whole experience.
Some Men have this happen also. (naturally some Guys love the arguing. Go figure)
So, as a suggestion, skip the stories that lead to this sort of crap.
In addition, I pretty much no longer say anything about what I am doing with my system. Why? half the folks just want to argue about shit. Who needs it?
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I hope James understands allowing contentious topics to run on his circle tarnishes the brand Bryston.
Folks get angry
No it doesn't. It reflects more on those who can't ignore topics they don't like, insert themselves, can't defend their baseless specious positions, make projections of themselves onto others, then make demands about shutting down said topic. As if it can't just be ignored.
Kudos to James for posting about folks standing up to highly questionable, possibly fraudulent actions by individuals as anyone can read, quoted verbatim above. Knowledge is power.
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Completely off track, Just wanted to say I hope James understands allowing contentious topics to run on his circle tarnishes the brand Bryston.
Folks get angry and that connection of anger/Bryston remains.
This is why Women usually leave sites, the fights just tarnish the whole experience.
Some Men have this happen also. (naturally some Guys love the arguing. Go figure)
So, as a suggestion, skip the stories that lead to this sort of crap.
In addition, I pretty much no longer say anything about what I am doing with my system. Why? half the folks just want to argue about shit. Who needs it?
You need to quit being accusatory and get off your high-horse.
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While the resistance of the cables shows which cable will lose the least power, the power lost in watts is determined by the voltage drop. For 100-foot runs, the resistances of AWG 10, 12 and 14 gauge cables are 0.1, 0.16 and 0.25 ohms. A household circuit is rated 15 amps. A 15-amp current through 100 feet of these cables would result in voltage drops of 1.5, 2.4 and 3.75 volts respectively.
If the voltage drop varied between cables because of length and gauge how much would that impact the measurements of an amp? Amp, preamp and source could all be impacted unless there is circuitry guaranteeing the input voltage. None of this means the sound quality changed but loudness might. Something Bryston could measure with brandless power cables of varous lengths and gauges.
A simple spice circuit of a typical power supply will vary the DC rails by percentages as the input amplitude changes.
(If it matters, im in the camp that the last six feet of power cables dont matter for sound quality)
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My take away from this mess is that it's bad form to sneak a microphone into an audio demonstration. I find it bothersome that Mark Waldrep failed to recognize that important issue probably because he couldn't defend his undercover activity.
That's why he got the boot from the club; not his beliefs. :?
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James,
Thank you for posting the link.
I have more than once been reproached for speaking my mind about this or that audio product. Few reviews mention negatives or drawbacks. I think it's very important to be candid.
Regards,
Michael
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Daneel, CanadianM, etc.
When I worked in a hotel in Flagstaff, I was walking in a tile passageway with the head of housekeeping. She said that there was something that smelled bad. My sense of smell is pretty good. There is nothing wrong with it. I took a deep inhale through my nose. Nothing. It smelled fine. She insisted looked around and then looked way behind a vending machine in the corner and was a wrapper that had some old rotting food in it.
Some people's senses are just more sensitive than others.
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My take away from this mess is that it's bad form to sneak a microphone into an audio demonstration.
It's bad form for shady demo folks and their enablers to not know that everyone in the room with smart phones have microphones, "snuck in".
Worse, that one or two might have the critical thinking skills to use them and measure magical mystical 2-2.5db increases in intensity with the same track.
Btw, the name of the event was AudioCon. No joke.
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Daneel, CanadianM, etc.
Some people's senses are just more sensitive than others.
I agree with this. But this is a different matter from what E.'s posts reveal about her world concept. Her notion that anyone who doubts her generic claims is an a--h--- etc. It's not doubt per se. It's making it seem as if pc's in general (as a concept/principle) will improve SQ in an already hi-end system. I call that misleading, at best. I have no problem with her posting observations. Just don't couch them as proof that the "EE's and their type" are incompetent or deluded.
cheers
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When I worked in a hotel in Flagstaff, I was walking in a tile passageway with the head of housekeeping. She said that there was something that smelled bad. My sense of smell is pretty good. There is nothing wrong with it. I took a deep inhale through my nose. Nothing. It smelled fine. She insisted looked around and then looked way behind a vending machine in the corner and was a wrapper that had some old rotting food in it.
Some people's senses are just more sensitive than others.
Thank you very much. Even though you are unaware, you just posted full support of "EE types" vs belief. What you posted was a demonstration of actual sensory ability, using semi-controlled single blind methodology. "Blind" means "not knowing", not "blindfolded". Neither of you knew or could obviously see priori exactly what the source was. The non-audiophile used her senses to home in using that sense, smell, to locate the source.
That is exactly what "EE types" advocate based on 200+ years of scientific knowledge.
The audiophile method would have been to make sure they were told and knew about priori/saw the food at all times, during their 3 month "long term smelling" "test". :lol:
Yes, a perfect example of "trust your nose", "nose only", "just smelling" test. Thanks, even if inadvertent. :wink:
Btw, this thread is actually about a demo where the level measurably increased 2-2.5db. There is no dispute differences were heard with the cable swap. FYI.
cheers,
AJ
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just crank up the tunes baby! got Lucinda Williams' "Can't Let Go" playing really loud. through my all Bryston system. using my personal choice of interconnect cables, power cords, fancy speaker cable - and the music sounds amazing!! bring it on Bryston. love it. so...quit all 'yer bitchin and enjoy the music folks! life is too short for squabbling on the internet about smack. :thumb: crank up Lucinda and let 'er rip!
Tj
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:thumb: +1 :thumb:
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just crank up the tunes baby! got Lucinda Williams' "Can't Let Go" playing really loud. through my all Bryston system. using my personal choice of interconnect cables, power cords, fancy speaker cable - and the music sounds amazing!! bring it on Bryston. love it. so...quit all 'yer bitchin and enjoy the music folks! life is too short for squabbling on the internet about smack. :thumb: crank up Lucinda and let 'er rip!
Tj
LW definitely a fine vocalist. Played the album Vanished Gardens, her and Charles Lloyd quartet. Excellent musik.
:thumb:
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LW definitely a fine vocalist. Played the album Vanished Gardens, her and Charles Lloyd quartet. Excellent musik.
:thumb:
I just saw her at an outdoor concert for the first time and I was very impressed. She played that song and several other hits. It was a really fun show.
She opened for Robert Plant and as usual he was amazing with his excellent band members.
Greg
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I just saw her at an outdoor concert for the first time and I was very impressed. She played that song and several other hits. It was a really fun show.
She opened for Robert Plant and as usual he was amazing with his excellent band members.
Greg
That the Redmond concert?
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Who cares? You guys have your faith in what you were programmed to believe. And the folks who can hear differences in wire FROM ACTUALLY TRYING THEM (which is what scientist do)
Elizabeth, I find your remark quite offensive.
First, engineering is not about being "programmed" to know formulas by heart, it is about developing a way of thinking that can be applied to problems engineers encounter in everyday practice. There is a serious distinction between the two.
Second, scientists don't prove theories that stand on scientifically impossible ground. There would be nothing to prove in this manner.
In my previous post I have clearly stated this: Well-shielded conductors of adequate cross-section surface area will be indistinguishable from one another.
You say you can hear a difference. Fine. Is that difference measurable? If it is, then it is indeed exists. If it is not, you are deluding yourself.
You are all over the place with your comments. Clearly, neither engineering nor physics are your strong sides so don't support your arguments by mentioning them.
Cheers,
Antun
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Who cares if you find my remarks offensive. I find your's equally offensive. :roll:
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...Second, scientists don't prove theories that stand on scientifically impossible ground. There would be nothing to prove in this manner.
But what is defined as "impossible ground" changes. The earth does revolve around the sun
You say you can hear a difference. Fine. Is that difference measurable? Is not the ear a measuring device? If it is, then it is indeed exists. If it is not, you are deluding yourself.
Wow. So if you can't see it on your test gear, it doesn't exist. And moths can't smell other moths miles away because we can't measure the ppb of their pheromones in the air. ...
Cheers,
Antun
The arrogance of the narrowly trained mind.
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That the Redmond concert?
Yes, it was at Marymoore Park. We went ahead and paid to be in the Pine area, it puts you in an area to the side of center stage but you are fairly close.
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Here is my problem with the *all well designed cables sound the same * argument, especially on a Bryston forum. I assume most, if not nearly all participants here own or have owned, as I have , Bryston components. Most are probably quite impressed with Bryston engineering and a scientific approach to sound reproduction. In other words Bryston carefully measures their products to improve their products.
The problem is that many of the measurerments, like distortion etc. are far in excess of what anyone has be able to demonstrate listeners are actually able to hear. Therefore significantly cheaper products with less sophisticated engineering will likely sound as good as Bryston products but without the 20 yr warranty.
So when you pay the extra money for Bryston products, ( assuming the engineering and measurements are important to you, ) you are in your own way buying fancy and expensive cables because you are paying for something that can be duplicated at a lower
cost and sound as good.
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I have to say the shady types who measurably jack the volume 2-2.5db during cable demos, like at this AudioCon event, have the easiest job.
Since audiophiles can't even discuss the actual topic of thread - underhandedness caught outright, while waving their hands frantically about everything but that. Easy scores.
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http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6236 (http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6236)
I frankly do not care whether you discovered *** or ^^^ were using black magic or a hidden flux capacitor, you are way out of line Doctor!
Neither do the ravenous scores.
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The problem is that many of the measurerments, like distortion etc. are far in excess of what anyone has be able to demonstrate listeners are actually able to hear. Therefore significantly cheaper products with less sophisticated engineering will likely sound as good as Bryston products but without the 20 yr warranty.
That's correct. Most modern equipment can offer the same specifications, but with Bryston you'll get a better warranty, higher quality and tested components, better printed circuit boards with better assembly and construction along with better metal cases. Audio components are linear systems that ideally don't change the spectral characteristics of the signal that passes through them. This ability is measured by the specification THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion plus Noise). It is basically a mark of quality with regard how the component will affect the signal passing through it. Components with identical THD+N connected to the same sources and speakers will sound the same.
brucek
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Components with identical THD+N connected to the same sources and speakers will sound the same.
To avoid such a dreadful and unwanted scenario, just jack the volume a bit between the two. 2-2.5db is fine. Don't worry about consequences, there won't be any with a certain crowd. They'd cheer you and attack any of those dumb EE types who snuck into the room with their deviant tools-of-the-devil smartphones.
Welcome to 2018. :wink:
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Antun:
There's a lot of phenomena that we can't yet measure reliably (or at all). That doesn't mean that these don't exist or are "delusional".
There's a lot of things that we don't know that we know; there's also a lot of things that we know we don't know.
cheers
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There's a lot of phenomena that we can't yet measure reliably
Sound pressure isn't one of them.
Now deceptiveness, slyness, underhanded, susceptibility, etc, etc. sure. Not reliably measurable. But none of those are electro-acoustic measurements.
A lot of folks get those confused.
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Sound pressure isn't one of them.
Now deceptiveness, slyness, underhanded, susceptibility, etc, etc. sure. Not reliably measurable. But none of those are electro-acoustic measurements.
A lot of folks get those confused.
... and that's exactly what this duscussion should have been about.
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Just don't couch them as proof that the "EE's and their type" are incompetent or deluded.
There's a certain irony in all this. The very engineers that designed and built the audio equipment are being vilified as not understanding it according to many golden eared audiophiles.
There's a lot of phenomena that we can't yet measure reliably (or at all). That doesn't mean that these don't exist or are "delusional".
In this spectrum, there are no mysteries left to be discovered I'm afraid. The audio bandwidth is well understood and easily measurable.
brucek
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The very engineers that designed and built the audio equipment are being vilified as not understanding it according to many golden eared audiophiles.
Even funnier is that these stereophiles who think measuring stereophony, including imaging/soundstage, etc. is a deep dark magical mystery, are clueless to who/what Alan Blumlein was. You can't make this stuff up.
Anyway, this thread was actually about a particular demo, by a particular person/group, not that that triviality matters I suppose.
cheers,
AJ
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That's correct. Most modern equipment can offer the same specifications, but with Bryston you'll get a better warranty, higher quality and tested components, better printed circuit boards with better assembly and construction along with better metal cases. Audio components are linear systems that ideally don't change the spectral characteristics of the signal that passes through them. This ability is measured by the specification THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion plus Noise). It is basically a mark of quality with regard how the component will affect the signal passing through it. Components with identical THD+N connected to the same sources and speakers will sound the same.
brucek
Surely you can't mean that. I don't think Bryston would be happy with having their amplifiers sound quality being equated with a mass market receiver with the same distortion specs. That would be saying the $4k 2.5B 3 cubed amplifier sounds exactly the same as my $100 used Pioneer receiver because the distortion figures are the same. As far as reliability is concerned I can buy 40 Pioneers to replace any broken ones with the same money, I'd be coming out way ahead financially with the receiver and Bryston would be out of business. In fact it would be Bryston who would be considered the snake oil salesmen charging $4k for what you could get for $100.
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In fact it would be Bryston who would be considered the snake oil salesmen charging $4k for what you could get for $100.
Hmmmm.....
:popcorn:
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To be clear I'm not promoting that idea, just noting it's the logical conclusion to the statement that all competent amplifiers sound the same.
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To be clear I'm not promoting that idea, just noting it's the logical conclusion to the statement that all competent amplifiers sound the same.
If their specifications are the same, of course they sound the same, unless the specifications aren't correct.
brucek
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So your position is that Bryston is ripping off its customers? Okay then.
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My previous post was not meant to suggest all amplifiers ( with the similar measurements ) sound the same but that when you buy anything high end ( and cheap receivers are not high end ) you are likely paying for something that doesn't directly affect sound quality (like warranty, design. looks, size , pride of ownership etc.)
I'm fine with those choices but unless you buy everything based on your own best ability to determine similar measurements ( I wouldn't think many do this who are participating here ) then criticizing others ( like buying more expensive power cords etc. ) because their non measurement purchases aren't the same as yours is unfair.
For the record I like Bryston products, have owned a number of them but that it is possible, in some cases ( I would take an Hegel H90 over a B60 ( the Hegel is a bit more than half the price of the Bryston ) because I think it is a better value. If you prefer the B60 that's great but it sounding better is very questionable.
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If their specifications are the same, of course they sound the same, unless the specifications aren't correct.
brucek
:wink: :x :roll: :wink: :P :icon_lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I've heard that fantasy before.
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If their specifications are the same, of course they sound the same, unless the specifications aren't correct.
brucek
Sound the same to what? Instruments???
You and I can stand next to each other and listen to the same music and hear completely different things.
We don't hear with our ears, we hear with our brains! :thumb:
Gene
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All amplifiers don't sound the same and all cable demos aren't rigged. The latter being of some importance.
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Sound the same to what? Instruments???
You and I can stand next to each other and listen to the same music and hear completely different things.
We don't hear with our ears, we hear with our brains! :thumb:
Gene
That's pretty Hedy stuff there, mate. :lol: :lol:
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If their specifications are the same, of course they sound the same, unless the specifications aren't correct.
I don't think Bryston would be happy with having their amplifiers sound quality being equated with a mass market receiver with the same distortion specs. That would be saying the $4k 2.5B 3 cubed amplifier sounds exactly the same as my $100 used Pioneer receiver because the distortion figures are the same.
So your position is that Bryston is ripping off its customers? Okay then.
I don't remember writing that Bryston is ripping off its customers. Those are your words.
*************************************************
Lets look at a Bryston 4B cubed specifications:
Harmonic Distortion: ≤ .005% from 20Hz to 20kHz at 300W
Noise: ≤ -119dB @ full bandwidth
Slew Rate: >60V/µS
Power Bandwidth: <1Hz to >100kHz
Damping Factor: >500 at 20Hz (8Ω)
*************************************************
A quick look at a very reputable amplifier RB-1590 by Rotel
Harmonic Distortion: <0.03% from (20Hz–20kHz) at 350W
Noise:(IHF "A" Weighted) 120dB
Damping Factor: 300
*************************************************
Yep, that Rotel is a really nice amp, but do you see the difference in harmonic distortion and the noise A-weighting compared to the Bryston?
As I said, harmonic distortion specification along with noise is a mark of quality with regard to how the component will affect the signal passing through it.
Could you please direct me to the $100 amplifier you referenced that matches the Bryston specifications?
As I said before, components with identical THD+N connected to the same sources and speakers will sound the same. 2 + 2 = 4
The largest contributor to sound quality is from speakers and your room.
brucek
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components with identical THD+N connected to the same sources and speakers will sound the same.
That is wildly incorrect, the complex impedance of the load can create differences beyond that, as well as other metrics, but this one is officially off the rails. I'm out.
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That's pretty Hedy stuff there, mate. :lol: :lol:
Thanks mate!
Although she's gone, I'm still picking that great brain of hers. I'm not smart enough to come up with this stuff on my own.
Incidentally, my son lives in Canada. Don't know how we let him escape Louisiana. :thumb:
Gene
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goosepond, it's a helluva lot cooler up here in beaverland than down there in the bayous. :thumb:
@brucek: I doubt if humans can hear the difference between 0.03% and 0.005% harmonic distortion under any conditions. Many buy gear after a satisfying audition, not from just the specs.
cheers
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As I said before, components with identical THD+N connected to the same sources and speakers will sound the same. 2 + 2 = 4
brucek
This is breathtakingly simplistic.
Years ago, puzzled by the apparent complete lack of relationship of perceived sound quality to measured performance, triggered by the fact that some appalling-sounding Radio Shack amp measured vastly better than brilliant sounding Jadis and Ongaku amps, HiFi News of England undertook a very carefulseries of tests in an effort to find any measurable performance perameter that seemed to relate to sound quality. They came up with two:
1. the immunity of the amplifier to RF contamination of the input signal
2. clipping recovery behaviour. Most people don't realize how frequently their amps are clipping in routine use.
Antony Michaelson does: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=38733.40
Period.
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goosepond, it's a helluva lot cooler up here in beaverland than down there in the bayous. :thumb:
cheers
Yep. I'll check back with you in Jan. :green:
Gene
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This is breathtakingly simplistic.
Years ago, puzzled by the apparent complete lack of relationship of perceived sound quality to measured performance, triggered by the fact that some appalling-sounding Radio Shack amp measured vastly better than brilliant sounding Jadis and Ongaku amps, HiFi News of England undertook a very carefulseries of tests in an effort to find any measurable performance perameter that seemed to relate to sound quality. They came up with two:
1. the immunity of the amplifier to RF contamination of the input signal
2. clipping recovery behaviour. Most people don't realize how frequently their amps are clipping in routine use.
Antony Michaelson does: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=38733.40
Period.
That was a good read, thanks. Learned something new about power and accuracy. Glad I have the system I enjoy. Musical impressionism and accuracy in balanced dosages.
Cheers
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Yep. I'll check back with you in Jan. :green:
Gene
Absolutely. With winter I can always add layers and stay warm.
With heat and humidity, I can't do much once everything is off. Still hot.
:lol:
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Hmmm! Sounds like you've experienced some of our great weather. :green:
Gene
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Hmmm! Sounds like you've experienced some of our great weather. :green:
Gene
Yes, been to N'Awlins three times, in November each time, for conferences. Long before Katrina. Great city.
Recently, 70+ people died in Quebec because of heat wave.
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Yes, been to N'Awlins three times, in November each time, for conferences. Long before Katrina. Great city.
Recently, 70+ people died in Quebec because of heat wave.
Raised my family in N.O. area (Westbank). I'm now above Lake Pont. And Katrina tried to tell me to get the hell outta here but I didn't listen.
Gene
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Well, I hope you have good home insurance. I don't understand how people can live in hurricane alleys like Florida.
Cheers off to eat....