[jtsnead]

Yes the finish on the left side of the left speaker is perfect for the
coming holiday "Very Ghoulish"

[Nuance]

By the way the Santos Rosewood is a beautiful finish .

Bill

A BIG +1 from me - soooooo gorgeous!

Some good subwoofer articles:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/speaker-setup-guidelines/subwoofer-placement-guidelines
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/subwoofer-placement-the-place-for-bass-part-1
http://www.realtraps.com/art_sub-placement.htm
http://www.sonicdesign.se/subplace.html

Do you have the tools (or money to acquire said tools) to measure your room using REW?  REW is free, and very handy.  All you need is a PC, good soundcard (preferably external) and a decent mic (such as the Behringer ECM8000).  You'd be able to see exactly what's going on in your room. 

For instance:

Here is my music response (bass):



And here is my movies response (bass):




The dip at 140Hz is due to my room, and cannot be EQ'd out.  I live with it.  Anyway, just thought I'd mentioned this handy room measurement tool.  It also has the ability to show if you have ringing in your frequency response, something you mentioned you hear.  Trust your ears above all else, but being able to see the science behind it helps a good deal.

One last comment and then I am off to bed: I highly recommend putting one or two 2x4' by 2-4" thick room treatment panels on the right wall.  Normally lateral reflections can add to the spaciousness, envelopment, and apparent source width (sound stage) of the sound, but that applies to a symmetrical room, with the speakers being equal distances from the side walls.  In your case (much like mine), the right speaker has a wall within a few feet from it, which can smear the sound with reflections and also effect imaging and sound stage width.  Adding two panels worked wonders for me, and I think it will for you too.  Realtraps and Gik Acoustics sell some very nice room treatments, for what it's worth.

Just my $0.02.  Enjoy those sexy speakers!

[Rocket]

Hi,

I am not a speaker design so please bear with me.  When you listen to the bass on the songtowers does the bass sound accurate?  When I listen to speakers that are commercially made I find that the bass has a tendency to sound like one note.  Can you hear the accuracy of the bass in the songtowers?

I have a pair of nuforce s9's and whilst they sound quite good the bass does sound a little deeper than my ht2's.  But importantly for me the ht2's provide a very accurate bass.  The nuforce s9 sounds like one bass line to me (not sure if I'm getting my point across).

Regards

Rod

[sarge_in]

Just for the record, when Paul Kittinger designed the SongTower TL cabinet (using Martin King's matcad formulas), his goal was to produce the most accurate response along with the deepest bass extension possible from the drivers.  He did not tune the cabinet to produce an artificially "warm" or "full" response.  The goal was accuracy.

- Jim

Jim, Dennis & Paul - thanks for the comments!  And I completely agree that accurate response is the best goal and if that makes things sound a bit different, so be it. And I am extremely happy with what I am hearing.

I also remembered that I had a similar experience last year when I had switched Pioneer head unit in my minivan to Kenwood. The bass in Kenwood seemed quite dialed down as compared to Pioneer, but on further research, comparison with home system and forum dialog reached the conclusion that Pioneer bumps its highs and lows as it seemed to appeal to several buyers. I quickly started to appreciate the more accurate sound of Kenwood. I am guessing several speaker manufacturers do the same and end up taking away from 'true' sound. Wish I had kept the CM9 for a bit longer to test the theory out, but I so preferred the sound of SongTowers I returned them right away

I continue to be impressed by the amount of detail the SongTowers speakers put out. A handy example, I have played Wii Mario Kart a thousand times before and I thought I knew the soundtrack very well. But the first time I played with the SongTowers I was very surprised by the SO MANY additional voices I was hearing from the crowd on the sidelines. If not a full, but it felt like at least a half-way new game with the SongTowers!

[sarge_in]

Sarge,

One thing that would concern me is the way both STs are half on and half off the area rug in your room. I can not see if you leveled them some how but if not I would be concerned about them tipping over. When you mention the ringing/whistling sound does it just happen when you are playing test tones? Do you here it when playing music or movies? I would try running Audyssey just to see how it sounds then you could always turn it off.

By the way the Santos Rosewood is a beautiful finish .

Bill

Bill - Thanks! Yes the STs sit on both wood and in-set carpet, so actually there is not much of a bump there, if any. And it helps that the STs are so heavy that a casual knock would find it hard to topple them - or even a deliberate one unless it was a full-on attempt to topple them!

And the ringing sound was actually in the recordings itself - different room different speakers had the same sound, so no worries there too!

[sarge_in]

A BIG +1 from me - soooooo gorgeous!

Some good subwoofer articles:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/speaker-setup-guidelines/subwoofer-placement-guidelines
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/subwoofer-placement-the-place-for-bass-part-1
http://www.realtraps.com/art_sub-placement.htm
http://www.sonicdesign.se/subplace.html

Do you have the tools (or money to acquire said tools) to measure your room using REW?  REW is free, and very handy.  All you need is a PC, good soundcard (preferably external) and a decent mic (such as the Behringer ECM8000).  You'd be able to see exactly what's going on in your room. 

The dip at 140Hz is due to my room, and cannot be EQ'd out.  I live with it.  Anyway, just thought I'd mentioned this handy room measurement tool.  It also has the ability to show if you have ringing in your frequency response, something you mentioned you hear.  Trust your ears above all else, but being able to see the science behind it helps a good deal.

One last comment and then I am off to bed: I highly recommend putting one or two 2x4' by 2-4" thick room treatment panels on the right wall.  Normally lateral reflections can add to the spaciousness, envelopment, and apparent source width (sound stage) of the sound, but that applies to a symmetrical room, with the speakers being equal distances from the side walls.  In your case (much like mine), the right speaker has a wall within a few feet from it, which can smear the sound with reflections and also effect imaging and sound stage width.  Adding two panels worked wonders for me, and I think it will for you too.  Realtraps and Gik Acoustics sell some very nice room treatments, for what it's worth.

Just my $0.02.  Enjoy those sexy speakers!

The finish - yes, I totally love it! Jim crafted it better than I had imagined, and it is always good to have a few wolves in the room

REW - yes, Bill recommended it as well. I don't have the tools currently, but they seem reasonable. Only have a laptop, so will need both the soundcard (any recommendations for this?) and the mic. Also need to read up on how to go about this. Your charts are quite revealing and look very nice - quite flat for a room!

Thanks for the sub links. I am surprised though how I did not get any good hits on how to use the eq that the sub comes with. The amp manufacturer website had nothing, and neither did google. Oh well..

As for the room treatments, yes I certainly need a few. Unfortunately, the room is the living room right at the entrance to the home. Making that into a pseudo-home-theater was a big deal in itself, room treatment panels on the wall will be shot down very quickly! A painting will certainly get on that wall sooner or later though. Will having absorportion panels behind the speakers help? That may be possible, if the difference is noticeable.

I was also thinking of some kind of drapes right behind the couch between the living room and the dining room to make the room a bit smaller to contain the sound as well as cut light I get from the door and kitchen window behind - bad for both the projector and the plasma. Anyone have recommendations for light-blocking drapes that look good and are good sound absorbers too?

[sarge_in]

Hi,

I am not a speaker design so please bear with me.  When you listen to the bass on the songtowers does the bass sound accurate?  When I listen to speakers that are commercially made I find that the bass has a tendency to sound like one note.  Can you hear the accuracy of the bass in the songtowers?

I have a pair of nuforce s9's and whilst they sound quite good the bass does sound a little deeper than my ht2's.  But importantly for me the ht2's provide a very accurate bass.  The nuforce s9 sounds like one bass line to me (not sure if I'm getting my point across).

Regards

Rod

Rod - I understand what you are saying, but it is difficult for me to tell what is accurate or not. I mean 2 different speakers sound different, and while I can tell which one I prefer for my personal taste it is not as easy (at least for me) to say what is more accurate if I have not listened to the same song on some kind of reference speakers that I can KNOW to be accurate (which I have not). The STs have a very flat response so they should be very accurate, but at the same time I have read in several places that HT2-TL bass is better than ST, and of course the HT3 and Soundscapes are at a completely different level altogether. But at the the ST price point, I know nothing came close. So is the CM9 bass closer to HT2-TL and therefore more accurate I just do not know. What I do know is that CM9 are 50% more expensive than ST and still got bested by ST in everything else.

[Nuance]

It's hard to say if panels behind the speakers will help, but they probably would, sure.  Having the curtain there helps.  I noticed there is no wall behind the LP, so no need to treat the back wall (since it's not there).  That side wall will probably yield the best results, and who says panels have to be ugly?  Check these out:

http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html





It's like having fine art on your wall, but they are acoustic panels.  NICE! 

[Paul K.]

The reasons for the bass in the HT2-TL being better than that in the STs are their drivers are larger and able to play lower frequencies better, plus I designed the cabinet for a lower F3.  Both designs have similarly flat response shapes, but one is able to play lower frequencies and play them better.
Paul

Rod - I understand what you are saying, but it is difficult for me to tell what is accurate or not. I mean 2 different speakers sound different, and while I can tell which one I prefer for my personal taste it is not as easy (at least for me) to say what is more accurate if I have not listened to the same song on some kind of reference speakers that I can KNOW to be accurate (which I have not). The STs have a very flat response so they should be very accurate, but at the same time I have read in several places that HT2-TL bass is better than ST, and of course the HT3 and Soundscapes are at a completely different level altogether. But at the the ST price point, I know nothing came close. So is the CM9 bass closer to HT2-TL and therefore more accurate I just do not know. What I do know is that CM9 are 50% more expensive than ST and still got bested by ST in everything else.

[sarge_in]

Paul - yes, I am sure the driver size is the main reason here.

FWIW, I tried Audyssey yesterday just for kicks (as Bill recommended), and it actually made the system sound a bit better in the lower end. Now need to start learning REW so I can see more accurately what is going on (though I am extremely happy how things are right now).

Brandon - That does look good. Will take a closer look at those

Rishi

[noshortcuts]

Beautiful system!

Sorry if it was mentioned, I only skimmed to see....

FWIW, I would definitely put your center on the cabinet and the TV above it - for best sound. You may need to build a stand for the TVr?

[sarge_in]

Beautiful system!

Sorry if it was mentioned, I only skimmed to see....

FWIW, I would definitely put your center on the cabinet and the TV above it - for best sound. You may need to build a stand for the TVr?

Thanks!  And yes, I know it is not an ideal setup. But trust me, I hunted all over the place for a stand that would go with that cabinet to hang the tv off but couldn't find anything that would have legs that slide under this cabinet. All cabinets that had a back stand had a cabinet that was open, which I didn't want as this is in the living room. There is also no wall behind the setup - it is all windows, so can't hang it there too. Even talked to a custom fabricator, but the price was too much for the benefit I was expecting. But honestly the setup sounds awesome to me with a little angling up of the center.


Also, quick follow-up on the 'fullness'. Things seem to have gotten better in the last few days. I THINK I am hearing more fullness from the speakers - whether it is speaker burn-in (I know Jim doesn't think that exists beyond first few minutes), or ear burn-in, or plain bad audio memory on my part I don't know. I have since returned to listening to music in Pure Audio mode (the manual says it bypasses the Audyssey setup anyways) and don't think there is anything missing. The speakers sound just plain awesome!

[Nuance]

Also, quick follow-up on the 'fullness'. Things seem to have gotten better in the last few days. I THINK I am hearing more fullness from the speakers - whether it is speaker burn-in (I know Jim doesn't think that exists beyond first few minutes), or ear burn-in, or plain bad audio memory on my part I don't know. I have since returned to listening to music in Pure Audio mode (the manual says it bypasses the Audyssey setup anyways) and don't think there is anything missing. The speakers sound just plain awesome!

That's great news, and cheered up my mood.  Enjoy!

[charmerci]

Also, quick follow-up on the 'fullness'. Things seem to have gotten better in the last few days. I THINK I am hearing more fullness from the speakers - whether it is speaker burn-in (I know Jim doesn't think that exists beyond first few minutes), or ear burn-in, or plain bad audio memory on my part I don't know.

In a while, you will begin to notice how boomy and loose the bass will sound on other speakers/systems. This is what most people think is normal in average (and below average) systems.

[Saturn94]

.......but it is difficult for me to tell what is accurate or not. I mean 2 different speakers sound different, and while I can tell which one I prefer for my personal taste it is not as easy (at least for me) to say what is more accurate if I have not listened to the same song on some kind of reference speakers that I can KNOW to be accurate (which I have not).........

Same here.

When auditioning speakers I will use different types of recordings for different purposes.  I'll use well recorded classical/vocal recordings to see if the speakers sound like a live (unamplified) performance.  I'll use Pop/Rock to see if the speakers deliver an enjoyable experience.  In either case I'm looking to see if the speakers disappear and get out of the way of enjoying the music.

[dakulis]

Sarge,

I'm really sorry, I just drooled all over your speakers.  My gosh, those things are absolutely beautiful.  Jim, I humbly bow before you again.  Dave

[sarge_in]

Thanks Dave..it of course helps that they sound even better than they look

[adydula]

Hello!

I have a pair of SongTowers and used to play them with an Onkyo SR805, which I still have but am using an AVA Ultravalve for my serious 2 ch listening.

When I used the Onkyo I would only listen in PURE AUDIO mode, No Audessy. For movies I would use it from time to time.

I used to think the SongTowers were lacking in the bass department but over time I realized that the bass is crisp and accurate, and if its there within the frequency range that the drivers and tuning allow its there and very accurate. No boominess and fullness.

My son once said they sound nice but they dont have that full on body slam bass you can feel in your gut, like some fullrange Mirage M1's I had years ago. I was a little dismayed at his comment, but they are not HT2-TLs...but they do a wondeful job of producing what they can wonderfully.

I have several recordings that I use as a reference and go back to when I think the 'bass' has gone away! ...The new amp has helped in this area, and I find it very hard to go back to the Onkyo for my 2 ch listening.

The finish on your speakers are really very, very nice!! Jim certaintly does fine work!!

All the best
Alex
 

[DMurphy]

My son once said they sound nice but they dont have that full on body slam bass you can feel in your gut, like some fullrange Mirage M1's I had years ago. !!

That's why God created the Sound Scapes.