Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires

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abd1

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #20 on: 6 Oct 2023, 04:15 pm »
I did use the LSA GaNfet and was really impressed by the sound. Detail was off the charts without the class d "edginess." I've also heard great things about the Atmasphere GaNfet amp and would be open to trying it in my system. Especially in the summer when my LM 845p will be way too hot. I think speaker matching is key here as well. My speakers, Cube Nenuphar Mini, are fairly efficient and are designed to work with low damped, low or no feedback amps. Most solid state amps have higher damping factor and while they work and can sound good they've tended to sound a bit dry with my speakers. If you have speakers that are below 88db efficient and are more than 4ohms, make sure to use a tube amp with some grunt (not a 300b SET). But to really get the most out of a tube amp I'd suggest speakers 88db efficient or more.

Early B.

Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #21 on: 6 Oct 2023, 04:47 pm »
Early B - totally respect your opinion but I find myself disagreeing.  I can't say that I'm the final arbiter of what sounds more natural anymore than any other listener. As has been said too many times, we each have our preferred distortion spectra. For myself, I find the tone/timbre of GanFets to be the more natural sounding in comparison to tubes.

There's tube gear and then there's tube gear. The popular EL34, KT88, 6550, 12AX7, 12AU7, etc. tube combos aren't what I'm referring to. Brand names are largely insignificant. That's why I said it costs a lot of money to get good tube gear. For instance, a great pair of tube monos today is easily $20K, but you can grab a used pair of Atma Sphere Class D monos for $4K and be quite content with them. The $20K tube monos may or may not sound better than $4K Class D monos, but they'll most certainly sound different. That difference in sound that I'm labeling as, "more natural" may be worth the additional cost for some audiophiles who can afford to do so. (Disclaimer -- I ain't one of those audiophiles! :nono:)

Daryl Zero

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #22 on: 6 Oct 2023, 09:22 pm »
I tried the Mini-Gan 5 with my Spatial Audio X5s and it didn't do anything for me. On the other hand, it made my Kef LS50 Metas roar. I also have some Nola Boxer 3S bookshelf speakers which the Mini-Gan 5 didn't do much for. They sounded pretty decent with my Nakamichi TA-4A but then I got a Cayin CS88-A and that gave me exactly what I wanted (note that the owner of Nola recommended this amp and said that the Boxers were tuned to KT88s).

I guess what I'm saying is that has to be synergy with the equipment and I haven't found the Mini-Gan 5 to play nice with anything but the Kefs but have found great synergy with tube amps.

Early B.

Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #23 on: 6 Oct 2023, 10:42 pm »
I guess what I'm saying is that has to be synergy with the equipment and I haven't found the Mini-Gan 5 to play nice with anything but the Kefs but have found great synergy with tube amps.

"Synergy" is one of those elusive audiophile terms. Basically, it means one thing doesn't sound "right" with another thing. Recently, I bought some interconnects and they sounded a bit harsh. I switched tubes in my DAC and now they sound great. Had I not switched tubes, I could have concluded that the cables didn't have good synergy with the components connected to them or one component didn't have synergy with the other, but both scenarios would have been incorrect. I guess what I'm saying is maybe the synergy issue isn't between the newly installed amp and speakers, per se, but a different interconnect or power cord or tube or subwoofer setting or whatever is needed to get them to sound "right."   

AllanS

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #24 on: 7 Oct 2023, 12:49 am »
"Synergy" is one of those elusive audiophile terms. Basically, it means one thing doesn't sound "right" with another thing.
It seems to reason that the more variables you introduce the more elusive “sounding right” becomes.  Getting it right becomes a design of experiments with no measurable criteria to judge rightness.  This is definitely a hobby for patient, well informed tinkerers like all y’all.

doggie

Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #25 on: 7 Oct 2023, 01:14 pm »

...Getting it right becomes a design of experiments with no measurable criteria to judge rightness.

There is a saying that has been floating around audio circles for decades. I am not sure who coined it but it goes something like this:

                              If it measures good then it may still not sound good. If it sounds good then it is good.

The key here is that "sounds good" is subjective. All that really matters is that it sounds good to you. It is the trial and error path that can become expensive and requires patience. You can ease this a bit but spending a lot of time on the forums looking for word of mouth consensus. Look for praise of component combinations, not just individual components.

Having said this, here is what works for me with my X5's. I have had a lot of amps, both tube and SS. I have owned Class D, Tripath, Pass First Watt, classic Dynaco, plus 300B/2A3/45 etc. I have even built amps, some from scratch. My system has been a work in progress for many decades. I have reached plateaus where I though I could be satisfied forever. Inevitably I am lured back to "The Audiophile Dream" that I can still find something better. With my X5's I feel that I have reached the endgame for me, both sonically and financially, with a Linear Tube Audio Ultralinear amp. It is just 20 watts but works very well with these hybrid speakers and their 500 watt LF amp and drivers. It has the detail and drive of a good SS amp with the soul of tubes. If I had passive Spatials(M3/X4) I would probably want more power however, depending on room size and music preference.

YMMV...


Mr. Big

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #26 on: 7 Oct 2023, 04:08 pm »
What I've learned over the past year is how much the room impacts how our systems sound no matter if it is Tubes, S.S. Class D, or Class B (Naim). Further what cables and power cords. I recently redid my audio loft, added newer acoustic panels, and then once up moved them around to learn how they impacted the sound. What I found was a power cord or preamp gain setting what I liked it the past I found in the "new" room was beaten by changing power cords that I might not have liked before but sounded better now, my gain setting on my preamp allows for any input 0-18db of gain, where I did not enjoy the 0 &  6db gain settings I found that now I could enjoy them, where I still lean to the 12db setting, I can enjoy the 6db setting which gives more detail while not as in room as the 12db setting which has stronger bass. My panels are a combination of absorption and diffusion, the panels have a designed front cover made of wood that can easily be taken off. I did that to learn how they impacted sound, I did put them back on due to the room seeming quieter, and more open feeling, but I heard the loss of some weight replaced by detail I wanted a balance of both, knowing what I had up before, I only removed the front defusion panels from the ones on the front wall behind the speakers the M3's Sapphires. Did not take 20 seconds to hear the gain in the body, midbass, and vocals now sounding real with openness but now flesh and bone not just an airy wisp of a voice sans a body, throat, and chest. So with any room, the gear we all choose is what is working for the acoustics of that given room.  With just those simple removal of a few of the front panels, I went back and swapped power cords on my gear and line conditioner and wound up with different groups of cords same brand throughout the system that now just make my gear sing without running out and buy new gear to get a sound that I liked in my room with its acoustics which will change if I change what is in that room that I could lose my adding or subtracting from wall acoustics, or furniture, carpeting etc. So is the tube, SS. Is class D or B better? well, I would say any of them could be a winner depending on many factors in your audio room, rooms matter as much as gear. I also will say from what I learned is when we choose speakers it is what works in that given room and its acoustics, which is something we are all dealing with a stuck with and one many don't invest enough in and that includes speaker setup where general setup from manufactures do not mean that is what will work the best in a given room, and its acoustics and size. You have to break rules and try out things so you can learn and train your ear to hear the difference and what each placement does on how a speaker sounds.

Tangram

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #27 on: 13 Oct 2023, 09:53 pm »
Thanks everyone for chiming in. While I’ve been mulling over a tube amp purchase I’ve continued to listen to my XA25. The bass I’m getting is so good that I have concerns that going the tube amp route will be a downgrade in that department and quality bass is something I value. So despite having some money to spend on gear, I’m sitting tight with what I’ve got. Instead I’m revisiting Jim Smith’s Get Better Sound and experimenting with speaker and listening chair placement.

Early B.

Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #28 on: 14 Oct 2023, 12:59 am »
So despite having some money to spend on gear, I’m sitting tight with what I’ve got.

Always a good decision!

AllanS

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #29 on: 14 Oct 2023, 01:12 pm »
Thanks everyone for chiming in. While I’ve been mulling over a tube amp purchase I’ve continued to listen to my XA25. The bass I’m getting is so good that I have concerns that going the tube amp route will be a downgrade in that department and quality bass is something I value. So despite having some money to spend on gear, I’m sitting tight with what I’ve got. Instead I’m revisiting Jim Smith’s Get Better Sound and experimenting with speaker and listening chair placement.
Best of luck on your journey. 
I got hung up in a similar place and eventually swore off any gear changes until getting the room and set up sorted, which has me far down a fruitful REW / treatments / DSP path.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #30 on: 21 Oct 2023, 05:41 pm »
For myself, I find the tone/timbre of GanFets to be the more natural sounding in comparison to tubes.
I know this post is about tubes, but since the SS comparison has come into the conversation, I just wanted to share my experience with tubes vs. SS.  I used to own the PrimaLuna EVO 400 preamp and power amp combo with my X5s and they sounded glorious.  I sold them and moved onto a Luxman L509x integrated which sounded very good as well.  I sold the Luxman and bought a Parasound JC5 which was very nice too!  Lol…. I tried a lot of different things in my setup, including room treatments, trying to tame the top end of my X5s, which was an early version vs. the newer version which Clayton added a resistor to the AMT driver because they concluded that it tended to be a little bright at times.  I had the newer version of the X5 as well, I ended up selling my X5s and moved onto another speaker brand which I will not discuss on this Spatial Audio forum.

So, my amplifier quest ended with a pair of AGD Audion Mkiii mono block class D GaNfet amps.  They are insanely good and the best I have heard in my system.  I wish I could have heard them with my X5s, but it’s too late now, plus I preferred a fully passive speaker like the X4 over the X5.

The AGDs sound like they have a nice touch of the tube sound with all the qualities of a good SS amp.  Most manufacturers of SS like to say their amps sound like tubes with SS attributes and tube manufacturers say their gear sound like SS with all the tube attributes.  So, I like both SS and tubes, but if I can get some tube sound out of a SS amp, SS is what I will choose.

The tube you see on top of the amps are the class D output stage.  Whenever AGD produces an upgraded output stage, you can buy it and do a field upgrade simply by removing the current module and replace it with the upgraded module. In fact, the Mkiii module is AGDs latest version and is available to anyone that owns the original Audion mono blocks or the Mkii version.  Do not let the size or looks of it fool you.  I don’t believe in judging gear until I have heard it in my system, so I have no issues with any experience you guys have with your gear!  Find a dealer that will let you audition them at home and let that experience be your final court of arbitration.

I have the polished version, but they offer them in a satin finish.








Mr. Big

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #31 on: 22 Oct 2023, 11:17 pm »
I've heard nothing but good things about these amps. So glad you are enjoying them.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #32 on: 23 Oct 2023, 02:18 am »
I've heard nothing but good things about these amps. So glad you are enjoying them.
Thanks!  I wanted to demo some class D amps and I kept reading positive reviews about AGD amps after Bengenito recommended the brand to me several months ago.  I attempted to demo VTV class D amps two times and they malfunctioned both times, so I moved on.  I found an AGD dealer that let me demo them and I couldn’t believe what I was hearing.  The reviews were spot on with their impressions.  I ordered them and very satisfied.

option-up

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #33 on: 24 Oct 2023, 10:04 am »
Just to throw an another opinion into the mix, I run my M4 Sapphires on an Audion KT150 amp (single ended configuration) that puts out 25W per channel (8 ohm) and it plays plenty loud enough for me. My room is on the smaller side, and I listen just over 2m from the speakers. Also, I only listen up to about 75 dB peaks.

I have been auditioning other amps because I am thinking of upgrading, and the best sound I have heard so far is from an Allnic 300B SET that puts out 10W a channel. The grip and control this amp has on the speakers (yes, even in the bass) is obvious. Images like a mofo, too. I have also tried the AGD Audion monoblocks (shown above) and an Enleum Amp-23R. Both were very good sounding (especially the AGD) but I prefer the Allnic.

To the OP, I think really you just have to try things yourself and see. Depending on your room, taste and loudness preference, some low wattage tube goodness might be all you need.
« Last Edit: 24 Oct 2023, 12:12 pm by option-up »

zybar

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #34 on: 24 Oct 2023, 11:56 am »
What is the cost of the AGD Audion Mkiii mono blocks?

George

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #35 on: 24 Oct 2023, 08:41 pm »
What is the cost of the AGD Audion Mkiii mono blocks?

George
See current price below, per the website.




Tangram

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #36 on: 29 Dec 2023, 04:02 pm »
Back to our regular, non-GanFet, programming.

I decided to pull the trigger on an LTA Ultralinear Plus integrated and compare it head-to-head with my Pass Labs XA25/EAR 868 combo, using my M3 Sapphires. Could be a fool’s errand but there’s only one way to find out. Stay tuned (if interested). The amp is making a long trek from it’s previous owner so no initial impressions for a while.

It’s a shame this board is suffering a slow death. Looking forward to Spatial’s 2024 product offerings and the (hopeful) resurgence of the good conversations of the past.

kayakerf

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #37 on: 29 Dec 2023, 05:55 pm »
If you get the chance try out Carver's RAM 285. I was extremely impressed at the synergy with my X4.

Tangram

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #38 on: 29 Dec 2023, 06:16 pm »
If you get the chance try out Carver's RAM 285. I was extremely impressed at the synergy with my X4.

Nah.

Daryl Zero

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Re: Need Some Guidance on Tube Amp for M3 Sapphires
« Reply #39 on: 29 Dec 2023, 06:19 pm »
Back to our regular, non-GanFet, programming.

I decided to pull the trigger on an LTA Ultralinear Plus integrated and compare it head-to-head with my Pass Labs XA25/EAR 868 combo, using my M3 Sapphires. Could be a fool’s errand but there’s only one way to find out. Stay tuned (if interested). The amp is making a long trek from it’s previous owner so no initial impressions for a while.

It’s a shame this board is suffering a slow death. Looking forward to Spatial’s 2024 product offerings and the (hopeful) resurgence of the good conversations of the past.

I think you will be happy with the LTA. The Ultralinear is supposed to have a bit more oomph than the Z40+ I had (in one review, the Ultralinear was able to drive Magnepan LRSs whereas the Z40+ couldn't other than low volume playback). I will be interested in your report. I thought the LTA Z40+ sounded quite good. There is a whole thread on that.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183364.0

Not sure the Spatial board is dying. When Clayton got sick and Spatial kinda went dark things slowed down. Even now Spatial only has a couple of offerings but soon will be selling high end amplification stuff and they already (Cloud) are selling Don's Valhalla amp. But all of the boards are a bit slow other than the trading post section compared to Audiogon or others but those also have a lot of tension in them. I've found this board to be quite helpful and friendly for the most part.