[bernardo]

I assume your comment about pushing him to be a stained glass artist is an inside joke - care to explain it?

[jtwrace]

I assume your comment about pushing him to be a stained glass artist is an inside joke - care to explain it?

He's retired from speaker building and is making stained glass art from what I understand. 

[DaveC113]

Ha, when I was ~20 I worked for a stained glass studio for a couple years.

I think the 4367 has the potential to be real close to the M2 but it's not a set system so could vary a lot more. Many benefits of the M2 are not going to be realized outside of a dedicated room, most non-dedicated rooms trash the ruler flat fr and the precise WG is also of less benefit. The M2 is a tool for production of audio first and foremost.

[richidoo]

Found this interview with the lead M2 engineers. Lots of technical info on the speaker as a whole.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDmzfpf3fCk

[jtwrace]

I think the 4367 has the potential to be real close to the M2 but it's not a set system so could vary a lot more. Many benefits of the M2 are not going to be realized outside of a dedicated room, most non-dedicated rooms trash the ruler flat fr and the precise WG is also of less benefit. The M2 is a tool for production of audio first and foremost.

Having heard both of them and know the design differences as discussed with the engineers I'll disagree on all levels. 

[poseidonsvoice]

I think the 4367 has the potential to be real close to the M2 but it's not a set system so could vary a lot more. Many benefits of the M2 are not going to be realized outside of a dedicated room, most non-dedicated rooms trash the ruler flat fr and the precise WG is also of less benefit.

Dave,

I completely disagree.

A **properly** designed CD based loudspeaker allows the loudspeaker to perform very well in a non dedicated room and extremely well in a dedicated room. It's the reason CD even exists. Now the magic word is **properly**. Some of the finest loudspeakers I have heard do extremely well in the horizontal plane and have high and constant directivity indices, such as my Geddes NA 12 whose DI is flat from about 1khz to 10 kHz and is ~ 10dB. But that is not true of the NA12 in the vertical plane and to my knowledge, it hasn't been measured in oblique planes.

The M2 is different. It has constant DI in the horizontal, vertical and oblique planes. It hits the nail completely on the head from about 800 Hz on up to about 8-10khz, at +/- 60 degrees. From a psychoacoustics standpoint this is exactly where an acoustical engineer wants to concentrate. If you pulled off a flat and constant DI  in the horizontal plane there will be a raging applause. The fact that they did it in the other 2 planes is complete icing on the cake! From what Toole's research has shown this is also of benefit from a psychoacoustic standpoint. Of course, Geddes disagrees.

JBL has the tools, the resources, the dedicated anechoic chambers and technical know how to execute this from what I am seeing. I haven't seen a loudspeaker that has been able to pull this off at such a price.

The video that Richidoo linked above is quite informative and Mr. Sprinkle does go into some of those exacting details. It behooves one to watch it.

One final point. The reason I have a dedicated room is because I can. Not because it's required. With a non-CD speaker it is absolutely required. The loudspeaker industry (most of which are non-CD designs) are driven by perception driven propaganda, hence the numerous glitzy shows, which is entertaining of course, but deceiving. I've tried hard to stop believing in the glamor myself.

The M2 is quite refreshing in that regard.

Best,
Anand.

[DS-21]

As far as I know, you can't [avoid the DAC/ADC].

If your source is a computer, you can. Buy one of these USB -> blu link converters.
http://bssaudio.com/en-US/products/blu-usb

From there You can run it into Crown DCIn amps, or one of the BSS processors and whatever other amps.

[jtwrace]

If your source is a computer, you can. Buy one of these USB -> blu link converters.
http://bssaudio.com/en-US/products/blu-usb

From there You can run it into Crown DCIn amps, or one of the BSS processors and whatever other amps.

Interesting.  Looks like it's only 24/192 capable.

[jtwrace]

Speaker wire has arrived! 


 

[Nick77]

           Speaker wire has arrived! 
                                                             

Your using copper clad aluminum lamp cord on a 20k speaker. 

[jtwrace]

Your using copper clad aluminum lamp cord on a 20k speaker. 

Good thing the speakers aren't $20k!

[jtwrace]

I did get some more done though. 


 
Got the wire all hooked up to the amp end and labels installed


 
Finally, sub stands put together too! 

[Letitroll98]

Speaker wire has arrived! 


 

    I suppose it's good that you don't rely on others to validate your audio cred.  It's there a specific reason you don't use better cabling?

[DaveC113]

Dave,

I completely disagree.

A **properly** designed CD based loudspeaker allows the loudspeaker to perform very well in a non dedicated room and extremely well in a dedicated room. It's the reason CD even exists. Now the magic word is **properly**. Some of the finest loudspeakers I have heard do extremely well in the horizontal plane and have high and constant directivity indices, such as my Geddes NA 12 whose DI is flat from about 1khz to 10 kHz and is ~ 10dB. But that is not true of the NA12 in the vertical plane and to my knowledge, it hasn't been measured in oblique planes.

The M2 is different. It has constant DI in the horizontal, vertical and oblique planes. It hits the nail completely on the head from about 800 Hz on up to about 8-10khz, at +/- 60 degrees. From a psychoacoustics standpoint this is exactly where an acoustical engineer wants to concentrate. If you pulled off a flat and constant DI  in the horizontal plane there will be a raging applause. The fact that they did it in the other 2 planes is complete icing on the cake! From what Toole's research has shown this is also of benefit from a psychoacoustic standpoint. Of course, Geddes disagrees.

JBL has the tools, the resources, the dedicated anechoic chambers and technical know how to execute this from what I am seeing. I haven't seen a loudspeaker that has been able to pull this off at such a price.

The video that Richidoo linked above is quite informative and Mr. Sprinkle does go into some of those exacting details. It behooves one to watch it.

One final point. The reason I have a dedicated room is because I can. Not because it's required. With a non-CD speaker it is absolutely required. The loudspeaker industry (most of which are non-CD designs) are driven by perception driven propaganda, hence the numerous glitzy shows, which is entertaining of course, but deceiving. I've tried hard to stop believing in the glamor myself.

The M2 is quite refreshing in that regard.

Best,
Anand.

Yup, I understand all that but still stick to my comments. M2 is also much wider dispersion than most wg speakers and for them to perform as intended will require a dedicated room. I'm not saying you can't get great results for music listening without that, but that's not really the point. JBL went to great lengths to make them measure darn close to perfect so they can be the best tools possible for production of audio in a studio setting. If you throw them in a common living room some of that will be lost. I'm not sure how that's even debatable as measurements will easily confirm it. That also doesn't mean that the perfect measurements are all for nothing, of course it helps as this isn't black or white. But considerable complexity has been added to the M2 system to accomplish it's goals and make it a great tool, I wouldn't understand buying a speaker like this and not having a perfect room for them, because that's the point, technical perfection. If you're going to do something do it right. Putting M2s in a common living room is not "doing it right" imo.

[srb]

It's there a specific reason you don't use better cabling?

The Oxygen Free Copper version costs $9.00 more per 100 feet than the Copper Clad Aluminum?

There was one feature that caught my eye, though  -  "No Distortion: The plastic jacket around the speaker wire helps to deliver high-quality undistorted signals to and from all of your audio equipment."

I'm not one to spend a ton of money on cables ..... but I guess I'm a bit surprised also.   

[jtwrace]

Yup, I understand all that but still stick to my comments. M2 is also much wider dispersion than most wg speakers and for them to perform as intended will require a dedicated room. I'm not saying you can't get great results for music listening without that, but that's not really the point. JBL went to great lengths to make them measure darn close to perfect so they can be the best tools possible for production of audio in a studio setting. If you throw them in a common living room some of that will be lost. I'm not sure how that's even debatable as measurements will easily confirm it. That also doesn't mean that the perfect measurements are all for nothing, of course it helps as this isn't black or white. But considerable complexity has been added to the M2 system to accomplish it's goals and make it a great tool, I wouldn't understand buying a speaker like this and not having a perfect room for them, because that's the point, technical perfection. If you're going to do something do it right. Putting M2s in a common living room is not "doing it right" imo.

Yep, you don't get it but that's fine.  Enjoy! 

[jtwrace]

   I suppose it's good that you don't rely on others to validate your audio cred.  It's there a specific reason you don't use better cabling?

Great question!  I'm using this to get everything in place to see what lengths I'll ultimately need once everything is in it's final position after measurements.  Then I'll get the awesome DH Labs Q-10 Signature for my speakers.  They're already making some Air Matrix using the Crown Phoenix connectors. 

[DaveC113]

Yep, you don't get it but that's fine.  Enjoy!

What I said is simply fact. I'm out, enjoy yourself! 

[goskers]

Yup, I understand all that but still stick to my comments. M2 is also much wider dispersion than most wg speakers and for them to perform as intended will require a dedicated room. I'm not saying you can't get great results for music listening without that, but that's not really the point. JBL went to great lengths to make them measure darn close to perfect so they can be the best tools possible for production of audio in a studio setting. If you throw them in a common living room some of that will be lost. I'm not sure how that's even debatable as measurements will easily confirm it. That also doesn't mean that the perfect measurements are all for nothing, of course it helps as this isn't black or white. But considerable complexity has been added to the M2 system to accomplish it's goals and make it a great tool, I wouldn't understand buying a speaker like this and not having a perfect room for them, because that's the point, technical perfection. If you're going to do something do it right. Putting M2s in a common living room is not "doing it right" imo.

Help me understand a bit better as to where you are coming from.  Yes, the M2 does have a slightly wider horizontal dispersion than some other waveguides at 120 degrees.  Are you implying that for this reason a purpose built listening room should be used?

I think the argument should go back to something more polar plot related than anything else.  Without this sort of data your ability to assume what it may sound like in space is a complete crapshoot.  Why? Well, it has been proven many times over that we not only hear the direct sound but reflected sounds.  In the home environment we will likely be dealing with many reflections.  The more alike the indirect or reflections mimic that of the direct sound the better the sound field.  The only positive I see to a narrower dispersion pattern is that of reducing early reflections.  This part has been proven to be more of listener preference for added spaciousness than anything else. 

I would rather have a loudspeaker with known polar data than a speaker with no data in a built room.  I will have to do a few, if any, treatments to a room with good speakers.  I will never be able to fix a loudspeaker based problem with a room based fix.

[poseidonsvoice]

Help me understand a bit better as to where you are coming from.  Yes, the M2 does have a slightly wider horizontal dispersion than some other waveguides at 120 degrees.  Are you implying that for this reason a purpose built listening room should be used?

....

I would rather have a loudspeaker with known polar data than a speaker with no data in a built room.  I will have to do a few, if any, treatments to a room with good speakers. I will never be able to fix a loudspeaker based problem with a room based fix.

Ding, ding, ding!

And the award goes to....

Best,
Anand.