Odyssey Digital Amp???

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vpolineni

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Odyssey Digital Amp???
« on: 27 Nov 2003, 07:15 pm »
In a topic in the starting block, marbles mentioned that klaus is tinkering with a digital amp... Klaus, care to comment on this???  By the way, happy thanksgiving to all.

Marbles

Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #1 on: 27 Nov 2003, 07:22 pm »
Actually this is what I said.
Quote from: Marbles

Klaus has been hinting about an upcoming digital amp for a long time now.

I think he might be close to having a product.

You should call Klaus for availablility dates and prices as well as other specs should my hunch be correct.  :wink:


The fact that Klaus has hinted at this does not mean he will ever bring a digital amp to the market.

The fact that I think he might be close does not make it so.

My hunches have been wrong before.

On the other hand, I do believe what I previously posted.  If you are interested in a digital amp, and or are interested in Odyssey amps, give Klaus a call at 317-299-5578

klaus@odyssey

Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #2 on: 6 Dec 2003, 08:54 am »
In good time,  in good time my friends.  Yes,  we are evaluating digital designs right now.  Again folks,  keep in mind that I'm NOT  a designer.  Believe me,  you don't want to have anything that I would design,  BUT  I believe that I have good ears,  and great connections.  That also means that I don't have the handicap of being an engineer. (I refuse to work with engineers because their background gets in the way of solutions.  Thinking outside the box and flexibility is nearly impossible,  and there are more than just one way to the musical truth in music reproduction, which is an oxymoron anyway.  Neither Rolf,  nor Alain or 2 othrs that I'm working with are engineers,  but fanatical tweakers and "let's do this and try this" guys)  

Now,  I'm working with some boy geniuses in regards to the digital.  Over the past 3-4 months I've done an extended listening effort (had some fun,  but for some part a real pain in the ass because of the amount of work in the first place),  and even went to a couple of my customers within driving range and listened to their setups and different amps,  which they have had,  and why I made the trips in the fist place.  BTW,  thanks Antonio, Alex,  and Pete,  you really should contribute here.

Anyway,  it was important for me to listen to mainly the PS Audio and the Carver and Spectron's.  I actually was able to take the PS Audio home,  together with the MF  A3,  an AVA  Fetvalve 350,  and a pair of Chinese SET's.    Well,  let me say it this way,  the week or so I've had the units in my system was VERY  interesting and enlightening.  Speakers were the Symphonic Line Belcanto's,  the Loreleis, Nightingales, Epiphonies,  and Numen bookshelves,  Sonus Faber Electa Amators,  and some Apogee Stages.  (Yep,  the living room loked like a stereo shop.  Had to fence off my son  Alex when he wanted to play PS2 on the big screen,  hehehe)  Amps on my part were the Stratos mono Extremes,  Khartago,  the SL  RG 4s,  an RG 1 MK II Toshiba (to counteract the Sankens on the 4's), A Rotel Multichannel, and a Shanling tube unit  that another friend brought over,and 2 digital prototyps of my friends. (The Kraft 400 had to go into storage for the time being.  Just no place for this monster at all and sherrie refused to have the amp sitting in the kitchen,  hehehe)  Again,  all of this was to determine if I want to go digital in the first place !!!!

This is to give you some idea as to how I make my listening judgements not only about the "other"  equipment,  but also about my stuff.  And keep in mind that especially with the Belcantos and teh Loreleis,  I know these units like the back of my hand for years and years.

So,  what's the result here ???  In short,  I refuse to go with class d or class t output designs.  I had a chance of getting an EAR  as well,  but the problem with the ICE  module(which,  btw, is not a B&O  design as so many of you blieve.  It's indeed another brainchild of a younger boy wonder,  a 29 yo professor of the University of Stockholm.  Anyway,  ICE  doesn't stand for the operating temp either and stands for intelligent,  compact,  efficient.  Anyway,  the danish government pretty much gave the design to B&O  for export market expansion )  is that it's extremely temperamental.  You shake it a bit to hard,  and it goes up in smoke.   The other aha  experience came when I discovered for myself, in my own listening coccon  that I really, really don't like the tripath modules.  Neither would I want to go the way of the PS or the Spectrons.  

What to do ???  Well,  I have discussed with a renown tube designer 6 months ago !!!!!  the possibility of him designing a tube pre stage for a then  / and yet to be determined digital design.  This would certainly give the digital amp some of the emotional quality that ,  to say it simply,  every single digital amp lacked.  I don't want to get into the different strengths and changes of system synergies and speaker load changes at all.  That's another long, long issue.   Similar of what Kevin at Solar hinted at with the tubes.   However, after discussing this with my guy,  I can see tons of problems arising here as well.  



  Oh yeah,  this I wanted to say for a long time now.  I see some guys proclaiming that analog is dead,  and that ss or analog in general  is a relict of the past,  and that some always come to the conclusion that the superior efficiency rates and specs in general simply rule the audio universe now or soon.   Well,  guys,  do yourself a favor,  and get some experience under the belt.  Do some listening and get an idea about system synergies,  dependencies,  software interactions,  etc.    



Anyway,  this week I  listened to a similar version of what I want to do and an extension of the digital protos from last month,  except it was set up for a pro audio customer,  and it was  good.  We now have to finalize our versions and start designing a case.  BTW,  I'm definitely all ears about any input regardin the case design,  as it is easy with this compact unit and since we're starting from scratch.
Let me put it this way:  I want to have premium audiophile parts in the unit,  a nice and solid case,  and still sell it as a super bargain,  which I know I can.

Here's a dirty little secret for you:  the cost of digital d and t class modules.  We could have had the 500 W  ICE  modules for less than $ 100>!!!!!!!!!  The tripath go as little as < $ 50.!!!!  Digital is very,  very cheap and audiophile parts don't cost hundreds and hundreds either.  It's just a new venue that is being exploited by more than one manufacturer,  and most if not nearly all customers,  especially those who jump on the band wagon of the digital buzz,  are simply not aware of the fact that they pay probably the highest average profit margins in the audio bus right now. (maybe toe to toe with cables, but people know about them)  

As you guys hopefully know,  this is a  180 to my philosophy and believes.  Yes,  of course I want to make a digital amp as high quality as I can,  NOT  being build overseas,  and charge a bargain price.  

Anyway,  I figure that we should be able to start up production within 4 months or so,  and I really want to offer this design for 2 reasons:

1.  to offer a really good,  the least digital sounding as possible for the money amplifier for somebody who wants to have digital for one reason or the other,  and

2.  because we now are seriously looking into the Home theater market with complete system approaches,  hehehehe(hey,  we already have great HT speaker systems and teh HT 3 for analogue)


Late,

Klaus

Marbles

Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #3 on: 6 Dec 2003, 04:02 pm »
Now for the tough questions...any idea on the specs of your amp?

Any idea what the power supply will be, IE Switching, torodial etc..?

Are you planning on a 5 or 7 channel amp for the HT?

Will you make an integrated amp, like a Tempest with the digital amp in it?

Kevin P

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Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #4 on: 6 Dec 2003, 04:43 pm »
Klaus:

I'd be happy to send you a couple of the LC Audio modules to play with. They would take you no time at all to build and measure.

You can come to your own conclusions about sound quality, value and how they stack up against other products and technologies.

In terms of the profit margins I'm trying to make as much as I can but I'd still rather sell a 500% marked-up cable.  :o

bubba966

Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #5 on: 6 Dec 2003, 05:12 pm »
Quote from: Marbles
Are you planning on a 5 or 7 channel amp for the HT?


Ahh, a 7 channel version would be awesome.  :mrgreen: Would love a good quality 7 channel amp that doesn't cost 3+ grand.

blue

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Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #6 on: 6 Dec 2003, 05:43 pm »
Something I would like is a 5 channel amp (for now, later maybe 7) that provides the most quality and power for the 1st 2 channels (mains), then the next level of quality for the 3rd channel (center), and then the rest.

Why?  Give me stellar 2 channel for music, then for HT, I want the center to have some good quality amplification.

Unless listening to SACD/Dig Audio, the surrounds don't have THAT much of a factor in my personal value equation.  I expect good amplification, not stellar.

bubba966

Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #7 on: 6 Dec 2003, 06:00 pm »
I don't think that differing power between the mains & center channel would be a good idea. They should be as equal as possible.

But I will agree that the rears & rear centers don't have much going on back there. And there's not a whole lot of front to back pans in movies so having differing power between the front & rear of the setup shouldn't be such an issue.

JLM

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Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #8 on: 6 Dec 2003, 06:02 pm »
Klaus...


Questions:

1.  You sound rather down on digital, so why do it?

2.  So can you tell us what the final circuit design, power ratings, price, and cabinet size will be?

3.  Will you be offering an integrated version?

4.  How good is the sound versus your current offerings?

5.  Will this replace any of your current offerings?


Suggestions:

1.  Please offer it with digital inputs, or at least to be digital ready for future compatiability.

2.  Keep the cabinet modern, with form following function.  Quality yes, but thick faceplates or wood accents don't add to function and aren't in line with futuristic thinking.

3.  Offer champagne as a color option (new to Odyssey to make a statement regarding a new direction for your products) and its classy IMO.

4.  Make the cabinet big enough for future upgrading options, but no bigger.

5.  As the vendor you're in the best position to provide good vibrational/electrical isolation and power cord features (as either standard if affordable or extra cost options).

Doug_B

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Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #9 on: 6 Dec 2003, 06:32 pm »
Klaus, I'm of the opinion that it's a waste of time to do a digital amp if you have reservations about the resulting sound quality. If you feel you have a market because of the term "digital", then who am I to take bread off your table, but I'd rather you spend your time on high quality<->value solutions no matter what the underlying technology.

Doug

TheChairGuy

Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #10 on: 6 Dec 2003, 07:19 pm »
I've been on the fence on this issue for a while.  Not because I've even heard a digital amp in action (I beleive) or probably enough super class A/AB amps to be a good judge, but Stan Warren (a remarkably objective guy, at least as much as anybody can be as fallible mortals)  admonished me to wait a couple years as they improve, but digital amps are the way to go.

Not to put any words/terms in Klaus' mouth, but it seems he is hedging his bets a bit by investigating what digital amps are all about and recognizing that now, until digital technology can be fully realized for amplifiers, it may be a great way to offer a very good amp at an outstanding value now.  Later, it may be the road to follow.  Congrats on not being stuck in a box with your thinking, Klaus.

As an addendum, note that PS Audio's top-of-the-line amp is not digital.  It's a rather stupifying $4950.00 and it's bi-polar output.  The class D digital HCA-2 is $1695.00.  That should tell us something right there.

azryan

Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #11 on: 7 Dec 2003, 06:28 am »
"-As an addendum, note that PS Audio's top-of-the-line amp is not digital. It's a rather stupifying $4950.00 and it's bi-polar output. The class D digital HCA-2 is $1695.00. That should tell us something right there.-"

Uh... if you're tying to make a point that digital is cheaper this ain't the example.

The solidstate model has a lot more power, built in powerplant too.

Anyway... back to topic...

Klaus,

Do you know yet which dig. amp module you're going to use? It certainly sounds like your preference is currently 'none of them'?

Are there new modules you're tying that aren't in any current designs?

Seems like an HT multi-chan dig. amp is in your future... could the design have an optional amount of stereo or mono sepp. boards so customers could buy the same case w/ 3-9 amps?
3 for the typical main HT front end to 9 for a full 7 chan system w/ dual subs.

Just a thought.

You mentioned ~4 months to start production. Was this meaning you're hoping to be selling these amps in about 4 months or start the design process in 4 months and then take much longer till people can acutally buy one?

Thanks!

TheChairGuy

Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #12 on: 7 Dec 2003, 04:53 pm »
azryan:

Kinda' the point, but not quite.

Circa 2003, top-of-the-line no holds barred approach to the best sound would still seem to go to bi-polar, class A/AB.  But, it costs dearly to get there.  Not as much at Odyssey as significant dealer profit layer is eliminated.

But, for outstanding value at lower price points it's hard to ignore digital amplification any longer.  PS Audio could have made 2 digital amps at different price points with upgraded specs, power, etc, but even they realized there were significant shortcomings with it - today, at least.

As we are now getting so many top flight natural sounding CDP's and DAC's after 15 years on the digital highway, it may take awhile (months and years) to improve the deficiencies and enhance digital's already inherent strengths.

Anyhow Klaus, I'll stop hogging your space and wish you good fortune in your first digital builds.  I'll be ready when you do.

DeanSheen

Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #13 on: 7 Dec 2003, 05:15 pm »
Sounds great Klaus.  I did enjoy the sound of the ICE, it's form factor ,weight,  and power, but it's price is a little steep and durablity issues are defenitly a detracting factor.

Keep us posted!

trucker

Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #14 on: 8 Dec 2003, 03:12 am »
Hello

This is my first post on this forum.

I just want to bring to your attention that Sharp is now on their third generation of the 1-bit amplifiers. Here is the info:

http://sharp-world.com/corporate/news/031008.html

It might be a possible candidate for your design Klaus.
The 1-bit amplification works on an analouge signal.
By the way, the ICE power modules come in two different versions. One type accepts an analouge signal and the other uses a digital signal. I just want to tell you, that B&O are having more succes (better sound) with the analouge version, compared to the digital. I suspect that the working principles of the analouge version might be closely related to the sharp 1-bit technology.

ABEX

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Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #15 on: 8 Dec 2003, 06:16 am »
Quote
"Here's a dirty little secret for you: the cost of digital d and t class modules. We could have had the 500 W ICE modules for less than $ 100>!!!!!!!!! The tripath go as little as < $ 50.!!!! Digital is very, very cheap and audiophile parts don't cost hundreds and hundreds either."


I tried to tell someone this for justification as to why I would never pay more than $1K US for a Digital Amp.

What I see is the fact that one can go to the local smoe store(BB\CC) and get better than adequate sound for under $300. I would have never imagined that the Digital Amps\Recievers would be good enough to tolerate.They are or will be big bang for the $$ no matter what might be said of them being compared to regualr A\AB Classed seperates.
   I never thought I would like a reciever again in my life. They are better than what has come out in the past from oversea's trtaditional junk boxes.

I had been wondering what is being found about the loads they are capable of driving. What did you find in that regard. I know they can be sluggish but can they drive Apogee's faithfully?

Oh! Analog dead? I don't think in my lifetime. Not with the LP's I have collected over the years.

Seems like in the evolution of equiptment ,when another breakthrough happens everyone rushes to it without regard to it's shortcomings. The preceding tech always advances alot further,but costing the consumer alot more becausue  they are now considered specialty products ,such as what happend with turntables. Wish we still had a big selection to chose from for affordable prices.

You are right they are not right up there with the Krells\Plinius\ Sugden\Gamut\Pass,yours or any number of other high quality amps in a few respects,but they do give great performance for alot less.

Just thinking

azryan

Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #16 on: 17 Dec 2003, 12:50 am »
The info here is a little old but still seems like a good starting point looking into the differences in many diff. 'digital amp' chips.

http://www.classd.org/oem_products/oem.htm

The Sharp design looks to get the prize for the worst design.

Looks like that Mueta and Phillips designs are VERY promising. Any comments on those Klaus or if you've hear them or are looking into them?

ICEpower modules 'may' be fragile but my ICEpower amp never gave me any problems and it was stunning. I recently sold it but don't know of a better amp to get. None cheaper IMO at the least.

I remember the posted comments too of the shoot-out between an ICEpower amp and one of Odyssey's amps. An Odyssey owner PM'ed me w/ his comments about the 'ICEpower' amp too. I'll just say that he didn't want to say what he though online.

ABEX,

You might want to hear this ICEpower amp before you declare that it's not better or at the very least in the same league as these top solid state amps you listed. 'Cuz it very much is IMO.

I totally see Klaus's and your agreement on the cost of the actual digital amp modules /chips /boards themselves being VERY cheap, but associated top quality parts will still cost money.

I'm currently testing out Sony's 2000ES 7 chan. S-Master Pro chip Rec. to see what they do as this is where you can find digital amps implemented 'on the cheap' as of right now.

I also have Pannie's XR-25 TI/TacT chip digital 6-chan Rec. and for a Rec. in a crappy slimline DVD player-like case it's pretty good.

The less broken in Sony is a good deal better overall though. It gets smoother and more realistic than the Pannie at higher and higher freq.

Neither are what the ICEpower amp could do though in liquid realistic detail but then there's a LARGE cost diff. and we're talking full multi-chan Recs. vs. a dedicated 2-chan amp.

I'd love to see Odyssey come out w/ a 7 chan. HT amp that could equal this high performance at these B&M store Rec. prices.

And I'd still like Klaus to answer if he was talking about 'starting in ~'4 months' or if he expected to have a working model by then or what?

azryan

Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #17 on: 22 Dec 2003, 05:47 pm »
Bump-

You out there Klaus? I'm still vrye interested in this topic if you're willing to answer any of those questions I was asking?

Thanks

ABEX

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Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #18 on: 22 Dec 2003, 08:03 pm »
ABEX,

Quote
You might want to hear this ICEpower amp before you declare that it's not better or at the very least in the same league as these top solid state amps you listed. 'Cuz it very much is IMO.

I totally see Klaus's and your agreement on the cost of the actual digital amp modules /chips /boards themselves being VERY cheap, but associated top quality parts will still cost money.


I too own  a Panny Receiver and it delivers a lot for the $$. I still cannot agree on the parts used as being worth $4K plus to the consumer though.Big Companies can cut cost and they do at the expense of sonics. Taking one of the lower cost Receivers and changing out parts for high quality parts should not up the price of the units to astronomical levels. What you are paying for high costing Digital amps is for aesthetics,build quality and sonic attributes. Not that there is anything wrong with that,but for my $$ I think these things will be stellar performers for a reasonable price. If I were to buy a SOTA piece in amps it would be for a more traditional design. PS Audio is one company that has a reasonably priced unit which is Digital.Anything above that price range for a Digital amp is throwing $$ to the wind IMO.

Wayne of Bolder is doing testing on modifying the Panny units and it will be intresting to see weather the level of performance can be increased considerably for a fair price switching out inferior parts. That is what  I look for in affordable equipment.

BTW the Sharp unit uses 1-bit tech which if it anything like the old MASH styled DACs then I would wait to buy a better technology. That I agree on.

I think the Panasonic units can be tweeked and setup to get more from the design. There are things that I still am finding out about it that improves on the playback capabilities.

JMO

azryan

Odyssey Digital Amp???
« Reply #19 on: 23 Dec 2003, 07:54 pm »
"-I still cannot agree on the parts used as being worth $4K plus to the consumer though.-"

Well I didn't say $4K.

"-PS Audio is one company that has a reasonably priced unit which is Digital.-"

1) It's got less power than certain other digital amps.  Less power should be cheaper.

2) Do you know that there are people doing mods for this amp and replacing some very cheap parts in it?

Best of the best parts cost some money. I'm not saying high prices are cool or not a rip off, but I am saying that you can't just put world class digital amps out for totally dirt cheap unless you compromise part quality/sound quality OR profit margin.

I think using large single or dual torroid in a multi chan. amp would be one of those good compromises though to get that high performance at a  low price though.

When you're running 2-chan. you'll have that whole power supply to draw from and when milti chan. it's less critical IMO -esp. for movies and running speakers 'small' and using a sub/s.

"-Wayne of Bolder is doing testing on modifying the Panny units and it will be intresting to see weather the level of performance can be increased considerably for a fair price switching out inferior parts. That is what I look for in affordable equipment.-"

Like I said the Sony 2000ES is much better than the Pannie XR-25 both broken in and neither modded.

I'd love to see Sony use this design in a true high end Rec.
Looks like that might be their 9000ES model? But then that one's a lot of $$.

"-BTW the Sharp unit uses 1-bit tech which if it anything like the old MASH styled DACs then I would wait to buy a better technology.-"

No idea how you're comparing DAC's to Sharp's digital amps.