Can someone demystify the Class D/T amps? Are any of them reference quality?

James Romeyn · « **Reply #40 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 01:22 am »

Quote from: bprice2 on 30 Jul 2008, 09:33 pm

I think regardless of what some have said, Class D can work just fine. It seems Mr. Rossi as well as some others have figured out that high current matters in this application. That's why many believe that Class D works very nicely powered with DC (batteries).

I'm still not sure I know what reference means. Seems kind of relative to me.

Carver's electrical reasons disfavoring Class D are not in the interview. Dan Banquer has posted his reasons for anyone interested to read. He said there are problems not solved by the battery PS. I have no dog in this hunt.

Will add I did NOT have a good preamp when auditioning the Spectron Musician III & that certainly would have improved matters IMO.

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If Bob states he thinks D does not sound good & he has electrical data to back it up, that's all it is. Bob's probably worth more than just about every other designer combined. He very used to personal attacks & admits his youthful failures in his earlier audio attacks in the same interview.

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Well, well, it looks like Mr. Carver has a fan...ya think?

The school girl crush routine seems a bit much.

My estimate is Bob's last company sale was in the neighborhood of $50-$60M. That's his second multi-million dollar company built from scratch (that I know of). I'm impressed by that. He built all three companies from scratch & worked (one might assume) pretty hard to achieve that result. I admire that. If you don't, state why. If there's something wrong w/ a normal admiration for achieving the pinnacle of success in one's chosen field, you might want to volunteer the problem rather than characterise healthy admiration for something else. Some might characterise your post as "grammar school yard" behavior.

rydenfan · « **Reply #41 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 01:45 am »

Quote from: ro7939 on 30 Jul 2008, 04:03 pm

Only class D I've heard at home was the Spectron Musician III; I would not call it a reference amp.

I would love to know your impressions of the Spectron and what about it you felt was not reference?

andrewbee · « **Reply #42 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 02:09 am »

Class D / T (more alike than different) and whilst it is just my opinion, to my ears the 41Hz Truepath (Tripath TA3020 powered) is reference quality.
I have yet to hear a Hypex class D amp but from people whose opinions I trust they are also very good.
I have listened / built many amps, tubes, ss, gainclones and other Tripath chip types.
I have always liked tubes, and still use them but find the Truepath to excel in its clarity, drive and ability to expose music unlike any other amplifier I have listened to before.
Like any other amp though, it must be looked at within the context of a system, as strange as it seems some equipment sounds better together with certain other pieces

My reference for a linestage is tubed, a FVP5 clone designed by Allen Wright so I don't really "belong" to any particular gain device persuasion.

Like many things in life, I am of the opinion that if people made a genuine effort to simply try something new and surrender pre-conceived notions they maybe surprised at what is out there for us to enjoy.

Remember, Bumblebee's cannot fly

Kevin Haskins · « **Reply #43 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 02:56 am »

Quote from: 2bigears on 31 Jul 2008, 12:27 am

my new to be amp list has a couple of crazy #'s to compare,idle power is 40w on one and 300w on the other.the power bill likes the 1st one !! i thing power will get to be a big thing,just like water,just like oil,blaaah blahh blaah

The current active speakers I'm working on will use four channels of Hypex amplification. The system should consume about 8-9W at idle and not much more under use. In standby mode it should be around 5mA. Since there isn't a passive crossover, no energy is wasted in resistor/inductor losses. Also... since you gain more effective use of power with an active setup this should be roughly equivalent to 400W monoblocks driving each speaker. The nightlight we use in the hallway and my kid's bedrooms dissipates about 8W.

That is orders of magnitude more efficient than even Class A/B amplifier designs and gives orders of magnitude more headroom in the loudspeaker design when compared to a passive crossover. The tweeter is about 102dB/1W/1M @ 1.2K-3K and the horn gain starts to fall-off. That translates to only needing mWatts of power put into the driver under normal use.

Toka · « **Reply #44 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 10:06 am »

Quote from: Kevin Haskins on 31 Jul 2008, 02:56 am

The current active speakers I'm working on will use four channels of Hypex amplification. The system should consume about 8-9W at idle and not much more under use. In standby mode it should be around 5mA. Since there isn't a passive crossover, no energy is wasted in resistor/inductor losses. Also... since you gain more effective use of power with an active setup this should be roughly equivalent to 400W monoblocks driving each speaker. The nightlight we use in the hallway and my kid's bedrooms dissipates about 8W.

Sounds good...keep us posted!

consttraveler · « **Reply #45 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 11:51 am »

I've been watching this thread for a couple of days now, and it is interesting to me as I just switched from a Carver amp to a Wyred 4 Sound.

Regarding Bob Carver's designs; I've had a couple of his pieces in my system for two to eight years (respectively), and I have never had a problem or a specific complaint. His Cinema Grand multi-channel amp stayed in the longest, simply because I could not find another that did better, what I want an amp to do. It gave me power that was not excessively colored and let me "see" what the components up-stream were doing.

The Wyred (B&O ICE based design, 4 mono channels, 125W for the upper frequencies & 500W for the lows in a bi-amp configuration) is not fully broken in, but it is already better (my opinion, my ears) in one regard. It allows the low bass to really "breathe." For example, the SO and I were watching the last Pirates of the Caribbean movie on DVD last night and for the first time with my new speakers, I could feel the bass in my chest at a moderate listening level.

The voices were absolutely clear, and the SO remarked at the end of the film that she had not realized before, how significant a contribution the music made to a movie. This is from a "non-audiophile" and without the benefit of a center channel or sub woofer.

I am very happy with the change, and at the same time I have nothing negative to say about Carver's equipment.

Bostonbean · « **Reply #46 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 01:08 pm »

What is a "reference" amp? Is there a perfect amp out there to which all other amps are compared. If there is please let me know which one it is.

woodsyi · « **Reply #47 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 01:28 pm »

It's called the Repere. It was designed by Dante Alighieri way back and the diagram has been passed down through generations of Rosicrucians until Mark L. managed to get a Chinese factory to make it. Only one was ever made from what I know and a lot of people have been looking for it.

IronLion · « **Reply #48 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 01:46 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi on 31 Jul 2008, 01:28 pm

It's called the Repere. It was designed by Dante Alighieri way back and the diagram has been passed down through generations of Rosicrucians until Mark L. managed to get a Chinese factory to make it. Only one was ever made from what I know and a lot of people have been looking for it.

I think the next Indiana Jones is about this...

Bostonbean · « **Reply #49 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 01:51 pm »

Quote from: IronLion on 31 Jul 2008, 01:46 pm

Quote from: woodsyi on 31 Jul 2008, 01:28 pm
It's called the Repere. It was designed by Dante Alighieri way back and the diagram has been passed down through generations of Rosicrucians until Mark L. managed to get a Chinese factory to make it. Only one was ever made from what I know and a lot of people have been looking for it.

I think the next Indiana Jones is about this...

LOL, I hope we are finally getting this thread pointed in the right direction...to the trash heap.

doug s. · « **Reply #50 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 02:02 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi on 31 Jul 2008, 01:28 pm

It's called the Repere. It was designed by Dante Alighieri way back and the diagram has been passed down through generations of Rosicrucians until Mark L. managed to get a Chinese factory to make it. Only one was ever made from what I know and a lot of people have been looking for it.

doug s.

mca · « **Reply #51 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 05:03 pm »

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LOL, I hope we are finally getting this thread pointed in the right direction...to the trash heap.

What do you have against this thread?

mcullinan · « **Reply #52 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 05:41 pm »

Yeah.. nuttin wrong with the thread. Ive heard the Bel Canto Ref 1000 which lacked a bit of detail in the mids, but could drive any speaker at 500w into 8 ohms. Ive also heard the Red Wine 30.2 which were really nice and musical with high efficiency speakers.
Ive heard traditional amps which sound way worse than these two examples.. so it goes both ways I think.
Mike

TomS · « **Reply #53 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 05:44 pm »

Quote from: mcullinan on 31 Jul 2008, 05:41 pm

Yeah.. nuttin wrong with the thread. Ive heard the Bel Canto Ref 1000 which lacked a bit of detail in the mids, but could drive any speaker at 500w into 8 ohms. Ive also heard the Red Wine 30.2 which were really nice and musical with high efficiency speakers.
Ive heard traditional amps which sound way worse than these two examples.. so it goes both ways I think.
Mike

Mike,

Did you ever listen to the RWA 30.2 on the Merlins? Might be an interesting combo for sure.

Tom

mcullinan · « **Reply #54 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 05:46 pm »

Quote from: TomS on 31 Jul 2008, 05:44 pm

Quote from: mcullinan on 31 Jul 2008, 05:41 pm
Yeah.. nuttin wrong with the thread. Ive heard the Bel Canto Ref 1000 which lacked a bit of detail in the mids, but could drive any speaker at 500w into 8 ohms. Ive also heard the Red Wine 30.2 which were really nice and musical with high efficiency speakers.
Ive heard traditional amps which sound way worse than these two examples.. so it goes both ways I think.
Mike
Mike,

Did you ever listen to the RWA 30.2 on the Merlins? Might be an interesting combo for sure.

Tom

No not yet, though that would be an excellent pairing I think. Perhaps at a future rave...
Mike

Double Ugly · « **Reply #55 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 06:04 pm »

Quote from: Bostonbean on 31 Jul 2008, 01:51 pm

LOL, I hope we are finally getting this thread pointed in the right direction...to the trash heap.

Is there something about this thread I should know, BB? Or do you simply find the subject matter uninteresting?

If the former, you should contact me via PM and outline your objections.

If the latter (which your "contributions" thus far would suggest), please feel free to ignore the thread.

Thanks.

Double Ugly
Facilitator/Audio Central

Bostonbean · « **Reply #56 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 06:48 pm »

Quote from: Double Ugly on 31 Jul 2008, 06:04 pm

Quote from: Bostonbean on 31 Jul 2008, 01:51 pm
LOL, I hope we are finally getting this thread pointed in the right direction...to the trash heap.

Is there something about this thread I should know, BB? Or do you simply find the subject matter uninteresting?

If the former, you should contact me via PM and outline your objections.

If the latter (which your "contributions" thus far would suggest), please feel free to ignore the thread.

Thanks.

Double Ugly
Facilitator/Audio Central

Well, I feel like have just been taken to the principals office. I am vey sorry if I hurt someones feelings with my trash heap comment. It will not happen again.

mcullinan · « **Reply #57 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 07:04 pm »

I think he just wants to know why it should head to the trash heap. And going to the Principals office IS cooL! Now where are those nerdy KIDs to beat up!
Mike

Bostonbean · « **Reply #58 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 07:27 pm »

Quote from: mcullinan on 31 Jul 2008, 07:04 pm

I think he just wants to know why it should head to the trash heap. And going to the Principals office IS cooL! Now where are those nerdy KIDs to beat up!
Mike

Yea, I did spend my fair share of time in the principals office during my ill spent youth.

Now if someone would tell me what a reference quality amp is and if they know of one please let me know who makes it. I am dying to know. I know one person tried to answer my question but I think he was just pulling my leg. Maybe this is it?...http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-A500-Reference-Amplifier/dp/B000TTX1GM

TomS · « **Reply #59 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 07:28 pm »

Another that has received some nice comments is the Cullen Circuits designed Wyred4Sound ICE multichannel offerings. Underwood is pushing those for biamping Emerald Physics CS2's and Dan Wright thought this was a great combo. I haven't had a chance to hear one yet, but would love to have them in house one of these days...

Tom