[JLM]

Getting back on topic...

There are variations of crossovers that mitigate the evils:

1.) Mid/woofer running full range with just a capacitor added to protect the tweeter;

2.) Active design (a more sophisicated crossover which sends the low voltage split signal to separate amplifiers, one per driver).


Note that Omega uses crossovers:  1.5 way (Outlaw) designs; powered subwoofers; whizzers (which involve a mechanical crossover).

[a.wayne]

That Sounds like more evil than not .......

[RDavidson]

No it doesn't. JLM's examples are no more evil than typical multi-way speaker designs.

[pstrisik]

Getting back on topic...

There are variations of crossovers that mitigate the evils:

1.) Mid/woofer running full range with just a capacitor added to protect the tweeter;

2.) Active design (a more sophisicated crossover which sends the low voltage split signal to separate amplifiers, one per driver).


Note that Omega uses crossovers:  1.5 way (Outlaw) designs; powered subwoofers; whizzers (which involve a mechanical crossover).

I'm approaching my evolving setup as "quad amped".  Overkill? 

1) Super Alnico Monitors will cover the unblemished-by-crossovers-range of about 150Hz-15KHz (or however high it realistically extends).  That's the vast majority of the range.  As described earlier, I may do a slow roll off in my amp from 110db down.  Or DaveC may convince me to try a digital xover  . 

2) Stereo mid-bass woofers self-contained like subs with a plate amp for each.  So they will get line level signal from pre-amp and cover 50 - ~150Hz.

3) Subs for 50Hz down.

4) Supertweets with 1st order HPF at 22kHz and their own amp.  Behind main speakers facing ceiling.

I currently have a tri-amp.  No mid-bass woofs yet.  Super 7 XRS alnicos.  This approach is really working well so far.

Lewis did a similar thing with his 1.5's.  Main driver runs full range just as if in its own cab.  Second driver has LPF at 500Hz.  So no xovers above 500 where you would notice their effect.  -- This changes the speaker to 4 ohms and raises the efficiency to something like 99 with ferrite drivers.  With the bass partially unloaded, the extra driver area, and the increased efficiency, this starts to provide a solution for those who want more volume but still want the single driver sound.

[RDavidson]

Yeah. I think you're complicating things a bit, unless your goal is a system that plays REALLY loud. But even then, I think you'd get where you want to be, with less complication, by high passing the Alnico Monitors at maybe 100hz-120hz (assuming they'd roll off so they'd be around -6dbs at about 80hz). Then just get the sub(s) to cover the rest.
But, to each their own. Sounds like a fun project regardless.

[Canada Rob]

That Sounds like more evil than not .......

JLM is correct.  Some of the best 2 ways I have heard have just a capacitor between inputs and tweeter.  Active design can also work very well with bi-amping etc. 

The OutLaw 1.5 uses a coil to cut the lower driver's frequency off below the all important midrange, the Super 7 and Super Alnico use a whizzer cone, hence a "mechanical crossover".  The RS5 is a pure single driver and is the Omega speaker that bends most brains and seems to defy conventional logic.

The OP is generally correct.  The majority of crossovers do their work somewhere in the midrange region totally compromising the most critical area of a speakers sound.  Crossovers can also suck power making it impossible to use some of the best sounding amplifiers in existence, flea and low power, be it tube or solid state.

[a.wayne]

Citing poorly designed  xovers as proof is pretty disingenuous, tweeters with simple cap only will produce high levels of distortion due to low freq drive and excursion , the difference is very audible , not to mention impedance mag/phase. You can subjectively like a particular setup without reaching , to state a single driver systems dont have phase rotations is also wrong , a well designed xover will produce no midrange colorations or compression and will produce more SPL  with less distortions , its only disadvantages,  is xover insertion  loss  , extra cost, more complicated design to work and dynamic compression if poorly selected parts are used , it will require "power" so with flea power advantage single driver with whizzer cone, well  , maybe ,  Small cones also lack percussive energy or "weight " this lack of weight may or maynot impact your liking , it does color the sound and since  sound is pretty subjective, thats ok , the science,  not so.....

Its also  easy for me to hear the splash with dome tweeters  from poor  xover  design with simple cap, i can also hear what it does differently and why some will like it , same with single driver, will you like it , apparently some do ..

enjoy what the  single  driver does,  the xover can be your friend for a different journey....


Regards ...

[HenryK]

Capacitors store energy and I would have thought ideally, they shouldn't be used with realtime music signals.

[DaveC113]

There's good and bad examples of every single type of speaker out there, results depend on implementation rather than chosen design philosophy. My point is that to build a multi-way speaker with the same sound quality vs a single driver can get expensive and is far more complicated, and often will not work well with a very simple low powered amplifier. The best speaker I've ever heard is a medium sensitivity 3-way design, likely with a complicated and expensive crossover... but TAD speakers start at $30k and the electronics will push a TAD system well into the 6-figure range.


pstrisik, I am using a Crown XLS amp with dsp built in, the xo is very transparent. For what you are going for a hi-def dsp solution could work very well... I believe HAL here on AC is working on a dsp solution that could also provide FR and impulse correction... I certainly plan on trying that in the near future.

[pstrisik]

pstrisik, I am using a Crown XLS amp with dsp built in, the xo is very transparent. For what you are going for a hi-def dsp solution could work very well... I believe HAL here on AC is working on a dsp solution that could also provide FR and impulse correction... I certainly plan on trying that in the near future.

Dave, I don't get the reference to HAL.  Is that a company or a person?  Is there a section on AC to find this?

I have a Crown XLS 1500 that I'm using to power my supertweeters.  I see that I could do a high pass at ~150.  But I would have to use the Crown as the amp.  I would be nice if it had pre outs so I could experiment using it as a digital xo only.

[srb]

I don't get the reference to HAL.  Is that a company or a person?  Is there a section on AC to find this?

HAL's MS-3 Music Server and dspMusik 6x8 DSP crossover and HiRez DAC's

[DaveC113]

Yup, that's it srb, thanks!

I have the high pass set to 50 Hz, that's enough to cut out the frequencies below the tuning frequency of the box that cause excessive excursion and makes it very easy for the sub to blend in. 150 Hz could work but not nearly as easily.

[rollo]

   Yes crossovers if not designed properly can cause issues. Then there is parts quality to go along with such. Louis designs a fine line of products we get that. For everyone like everything else it is personal preference.
    For me personally tonality and harmonic structure are key to my decision making. After that scale and size of presentation is another key for me. We all have similar however different desires in selecting a speaker. There is not "better" IMO just different. Saying that the Omega speaker gets the tonality and harmonics pretty darn close to the truth of real music. Listen to a pair and then decide if that is enough for you. Louis keep up the good work.



charles

[pstrisik]

Thanks for the link to HAL's dspMusik.  It sounds like it could work very well.  It uses Wolfson DAC chips which are the same used in my currently preferred DAC (though I know other aspects of DAC design are at least as important).  It could even manage all of my four speaker elements (sub, mid-bass, omegas, supertweeters) with better slope than I have been looking at.

$1500 though.  And sounds like it has to be programmed before delivery.  I don't see that it can be further tweaked by the user - even for crossover points.  Though it's a bit difficult to follow in thread format without any consolidated product info.  I did read the danville product info.

[DaveC113]

There's also the minidsp hd for 1/3 the price...

http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-4x10-hd

[pstrisik]

There's also the minidsp hd for 1/3 the price...

http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-4x10-hd

That one looks like it may be worth it just for the fun of playing with it!  I've looked at MiniDSP in the past, but haven't taken it seriously due to my wish to keep my own DAC.  If its DAC is good, it would definitely be a workable option.  I like that I can do as much configuration as I want.

There are also Marchand active analog crossovers for less than $1000.

[DaveC113]

And the Nelson Pass unit for $5k... A friend of mine has this unit as an xo for his pipedream line arrays. I want one... 

http://www.stereotimes.com/amp021513.shtml

I agree the minidsp may be worth it just to experiment with.

[woodsyi]

Thanks for the link to HAL's dspMusik.  It sounds like it could work very well.  It uses Wolfson DAC chips which are the same used in my currently preferred DAC (though I know other aspects of DAC design are at least as important).  It could even manage all of my four speaker elements (sub, mid-bass, omegas, supertweeters) with better slope than I have been looking at.

$1500 though.  And sounds like it has to be programmed before delivery.  I don't see that it can be further tweaked by the user - even for crossover points.  Though it's a bit difficult to follow in thread format without any consolidated product info.  I did read the danville product info.

Rich programs it for you to start.  It's just to get you started.  It has a fairly easy and transparent software that you can tweak to your content.  I ran my ribbons and 10 woofers through it first.  I sounded great when I played just digital source but the extra ad/da loop for analog playing was not as good.  I still got it to handle my woofers.  I can change poles, slope, phase, and gain.  I can add time correction and eq for optimum room integration.  The extra ad/dsp/da loop doesn't seems affect below 300 hz.  In fact, the added control has made my bass much better.  I can hear the improvement and I can see it in the f/r measurements. 

[BobRex]

Rich programs it for you to start.  It's just to get you started.  It has a fairly easy and transparent software that you can tweak to your content.  I ran my ribbons and 10 woofers through it first.  I sounded great when I played just digital source but the extra ad/da loop for analog playing was not as good.  I still got it to handle my woofers.  I can change poles, slope, phase, and gain.  I can add time correction and eq for optimum room integration.  The extra ad/dsp/da loop doesn't seems affect below 300 hz.  In fact, the added control has made my bass much better.  I can hear the improvement and I can see it in the f/r measurements.

How do you compensate for the processing delay (ad/dsp/da)?  Granted it's probably milliseconds, but still.....

[pstrisik]

And the Nelson Pass unit for $5k... A friend of mine has this unit as an xo for his pipedream line arrays. I want one... 

http://www.stereotimes.com/amp021513.shtml

I agree the minidsp may be worth it just to experiment with.

I hadn't seen this one before.  I wonder how close it is to the First Watt B4.  I'll bet that it evolved from the B4 ($1500).