AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: jermmd on 12 Apr 2006, 11:54 pm
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Before I bought my speakers, a friend mentioned that he had heard the Salk Veracity HT3's were bright sounding. I disregarded this because I had heard Zybar's speakers (albeit via Tact processing) and they sounded just right to me. I have now owned my speakers for a few months and I actually bump up the treble slightly because I believe my room/treatments decrease the highs. I would describe the speakers as neutral. They are also very detailed and I think sometimes that can be interpreted as bright.
My previous speakers were VMPS RM30's and I would also describe them as neutral and very detailed. I guess that's the sound I like. Neither VMPS or Salk HT3's are fatiguing to listen to IMHO. I associate brightness with fatiguing.
Now, for the second time, someone mentioned to me that an HT3 owner described his speakers as bright sounding. For those of you who have heard the speakers, what do you think?
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I might be one that you are referring to saying the HT3s are bright. I just received them last Friday so they I guess they have some break in left. I did remove some GIK panels in the front corners last night which helped. I originally had panels stacked from floor to ceiling, but I think that deadened the sound too much. I took the upper panels off and now have more upper bass lower mid fullness.
With jazz, acoustic guitar, and vocals they sound really good. Sometimes when the horns or vocals get loud, they can sound bright and hurt my ears a little. I measured the SPLs at my listening position at the loudest I care to listen, and the max was 96db.
The very big concern I have now is that anything hard that I like to listen to like System of the Down, Metallica, Queens of the Stone Age, Fugazi, etc., the sound is kind of thin and bright. My wife likes rap and hip hop. The Salks sound OK with that kind of music. I know rap is a no no to most audiophiles, but that's what my wife likes. I want her to be happy with the speakers too.
I had the Lorelei's for a month a while ago. If I didn't have issues between them and my old room layout, I would have kept them. The things that I wanted them to be better at were transparency, clarity, and detail. That's why I thought the HT3s would be a great choice.
The things I loved about the Lorelei's were the rich, full bass, etherial holgraphic, non fatiguing, room/house filling sound, and the fact that they sounded good with every CD I threw at them. The warmth sounded a little unrealistic to me, but maybe that is a compromise that I need to re-evaluate.
I also just got my Squeezebox back from Vinnie with the new analog mods including a new opamp and blackgates. The Squeezebox with the older mods was more laid back than my Cary 303/200. Now it is brighter sounding. I have a lot of things going on with my system, but I'm not sure if burn in will fix all of my concerns.
One thing I don't want to do is spend more money to make things sound better. I went way over budget to buy the Salks hoping that they would be my last last purchase, and would be completely satisfied.
I am a little down, and I guess I need to chill out, let everything settle in, and re-evaluate in a couple weeks.
BTW- I have more room treatments including GIKs in the back corners and first reflection points. I also have Eighth Nerve Response treaments in some places. My amps are Odyssey Extreme Mono SE's and Tempest pre. Cables are Groneberg.
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I would be very interested in responses to your question. Proper high frequency balance is one of the trickiest issues in speaker design. One problem, of course is that so much recorded material has a hyped-up top end that will come crashing through in full glory if a speaker is flat on-axis and has wide disperion as well. And then there's the issue of the room--lots of drywall and hardwood floors can produce a very harsh sound if the speaker is flat on top. Fianlly, we don't really know how the ear processes on-axis and delayed off-axis refections, so there isn't any unambiguous truth to pursue. About all I can say is that I've tested a whole lot of commercial and DIY designs, and at least 90% of them have had hotter highs than any of my speakers. And, you can order a contour switch for the HT3 that will step the highs down significantly if you feel you might need this option.
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Pugs,
yeah, you were the second person I mentioned. I have to admit that I've spent much less time listening to Metal and rap since buying the Salks. I've only recently discovered Jack Johnson, Ben Harper, and Natalie Marchant so I've spent a lot of time listening to jazz/blues/acoustic music. Maybe that type of music sounds better on the Salks? I think Led Zep sounds pretty damn awesome on my system though so I'm not sure. Maybe I just like a bright sound? I used to be a big Dynaudio fan and I always felt the Dyns had a warm sound (putting me in the warm is better camp).
What high end brands are known for a bright sound?
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Pugs,
yeah, you were the second person I mentioned. I have to admit that I've spent much less time listening to Metal and rap since buying the Salks. I've only recently discovered Jack Johnson, Ben Harper, and Natalie Marchant so I've spent a lot of time listening to jazz/blues/acoustic music. Maybe that type of music sounds better on the Salks? I think Led Zep sounds pretty damn awesome on my system though so I'm not sure. Maybe I just like a bright sound? I used to be a big Dynaudio fan and I always fe ...
I have had my HT3s and HTC now only for 3 days. I bleive what most of you are describing is the detail that the ribbon brings out. And as mentioned previousy the room treatment, toe in, and other details of the room greatly affect the result. Of course at 55 years old I would guess my ears might have someting to do with it as well!
Im VERY pleased with the quality of the sound (and build) of the HT3s. The detail is astounding, and yes, in my opinion as well they sound much better with non "metalic(a)" music. Im still working on toe in and rear wall position, but so far they are wonderfull!
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I also just got my Squeezebox back from Vinnie with the new analog mods including a new opamp and blackgates. The Squeezebox with the older mods was more laid back than my Cary 303/200. Now it is brighter sounding. I have a lot of things going on with my system, but I'm not sure if burn in will fix all of my concerns. .
I don't have salks, nor have I heard them, but I also recently got a vinnie modded SB3 with the new analog mods. If you just received yours and you're using it as you source for speaker evaluation, it might explain some of the brightness. For me, in my system, right out of the box the modded SB3 was terribly forward in the upper midrange and lower treble and there was some significant grainyness in the mid/upper treble. From what I could find, my understanding was that this is typical with new blackgates, but I didn't expect it to be this bad. It was almost unlistenable. I left it plugged in and connected to my amp and let it play on repeat 24/7 for a few weeks without the amp turned on (when i wasn't listening to other music).
I'm in the process of remodelling much of my house and my system is now in a far from optimal room, so any real critical listening is out of the question, but the SB3 has mellowed out quite a bit. The forwardness and grainyness I experienced are almost gone. I can now enjoy it as my main source. Hopefully I'll get a room properly setup soon so I can begin to truely enjoy my system again.
Again, this was only my experience, in my system so YMMV, but give it a little bit of time to break in.
Michael
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The squeezebox could be part of the problem. So far I regret getting the new mods. The old mods were really laid back and probably would have worked better with the HT3's. I have about 100 hours on it with the new mods.
I just don't think any amount of break in is going to make these speakers work with punk, metal, or rap. I don't want to stop listening to 25 to 50% of my music collection. Punk is what I grew up on. I played drums in a few bands for over 10 years and it will always be a part of me. They sound great with everything else. The are very good home theatre speakers too.
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HT3s are as neutral as any speaker I have heard so far. Of course that means that if your electronics are bright, the HT3s will tell you that. If the electronics are extraordinary, the HT3s will be too, kind of music played not an issue at all.
Frank Van Alstine
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HT3s are as neutral as any speaker I have heard so far. Of course that means that if your electronics are bright, the HT3s will tell you that. If the electronics are extraordinary, the HT3s will be too, kind of music played not an issue at all.
Frank Van Alstine
I disagree. I have Odyssey mono extremes and Tempest which are in no way bright. I used my Cary 303/200 with the HT3's for a while and doesn't make much of a difference. The Cary is not bright.
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Who voted for Warm and what equipment are you using? Like I said before, I actually increase the treble to my speakers because of room interactions.
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The squeezebox could be part of the problem. So far I regret getting the new mods. The old mods were really laid back and probably would have worked better with the HT3's. I have about 100 hours on it with the new mods.
I just don't think any amount of break in is going to make these speakers work with punk, metal, or rap. I don't want to stop listening to 25 to 50% of my music collection. Punk is what I grew up on. I played drums in a few bands for over 10 years and it will always be a part of me. They sound great with everything else. The are very good home theatre speakers too.
Ultimately, you need to have gear that let's you enjoy ALL your music. If the HT3's turn out to be that great! If not, you can probably sell them for a very small loss (not the ususal 50% reduction). I don't listen to rap, but I do listen to some Metallica, Iron Maiden, etc... from time to time and I don't think it sounds bad on my HT3's, but it also doesn't sound as good as many other recordings I own.
George
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I'm not sure whether you're complaining about a bright treble per se, or whether you think the bass is too thin. The two are related, but not the same thing. I find it a little hard to believe the bass is thin. Not with that woofer. And not based on my listening experience and crossover experimentation. If it's just the treble that's bothering you, it would be pretty trivial to remove the tweeter and insert a 2-3 ohm resistor between the positive terminal and the positive lead from the crossover. I would check with Jim before you do that to make sure, since I really don't know how he has the lead to the + tweeter terminal connected, or how it is terminated.
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I'm not sure whether you're complaining about a bright treble per se, or whether you think the bass is too thin. The two are related, but not the same thing. I find it a little hard to believe the bass is thin. Not with that woofer. And not based on my listening experience and crossover experimentation. If it's just the treble that's bothering you, it would be pretty trivial to remove the tweeter and insert a 2-3 ohm resistor between the positive terminal and the positive lead from the crossover. I wo ...
It's almost like they are different speakers when playing that type of music. The music is thin, flat, and kind of harsh. There is no fullness to the sound. Every other music I have tried, sounds great. They are also great for Home Theatre which I use my system for often.
I guess I'll have to decide if it's a compromise I'm willing to make. I don't know if I'll be able to live with them, because I'll have to cut out a large portion of the music I enjoy.
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Well, the customer is always right. But if you weren't a customer, I might suggest it's the program material that's thin, flat, and harsh unless warmed up by a speaker that has excess energy in the midbass.
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For the purposes of this post, I'm going to equate "bright" with "a pitched up (non-flat) high frequency response". If this doesn't fit the intent of the original post, please let me know, as what follows might then be best split out into another thread....
Dennis & Jim, when you went about voicing the HT3, what were the details of your environment and setup?
Background:
In the past week, I've read two articles in which a listener's setup or environment varied from the designer's environment enough to produce very non-flat high frequency responses in speakers that were designed to be flat. These differences were both audible and measurable. To be specific, I read:
1) The Sterophile review of the Dunlavy Audio Labs SC-IV/A (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/166/), in which sitting closer to the speakers than the John Dunlavy's recommended distance of 10 ft resulted in a tipped up HF response. (Specifically, see the " Measurements part 2 (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/166/index6.html)" page.
2) The 3rd installment of Building the Music Vault (http://www.ultraaudio.com/twbas/twbas_20060215.htm) in which 0.25 inch Berber carpeting was shown to be rolling off the response of Wilson Alexandria X-2s above 16 kHz in a professionally implemented listening room.
What I find surprising about these articles is that they seem to indicate that it isn't always enough to have a "generically" good setup and room - it appears important to have an environment similar to the designer's, or, at the very least, an exceptionally detailed understanding of how your room and speaker placement is affecting your final sound. (For this, at least, I suspect that measurements would be required for all but the most golden of ears.) Despite this, I can think of very few speakers in which these intentions are spelled out for prospective customers in any real detail.
(I have occasionally seen distance and toe-in recommendations specified for some speakers. Merlin speakers come to mind, as I know they actually ship with simple alignment guides to ensure proper toe-in.)
So.... with all of that said, can either of you (Jim or Dennis) comment on the details of the placement and environment in place when voicing the HT3s?
Thanks!
(I have to say that while resistor swapping works well for those handy with a soldering iron, I'm finding digital room correction more and more interesting regardless of the speakers under discussion...)
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Does anybody know of high quality, not too expensive tone controls with a bypass? I could use tone controls for the music I'm having issues with, and bypass it when listening to everything else. That would solve my problem.
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pugs I now have over 200 hrs on my RWA SB2 and the sound is mellowing more. It is a nice improvement since the 100 hour mark. I presume you are using a very good power supply rather than the cheap stock switcher I'm still using. I have lots of poorly recorded music and for that reason, I may consider the AVA preamp in the future as one of the models has tone controls.
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The AVA EC series preamplifiers (Ultra EC and Omegastar EC) have nice switchable tone control circuits.
Frank Van Alstine
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......Maybe I just like a bright sound? I used to be a big Dynaudio fan and I always felt the Dyns had a warm sound (putting me in the warm is better camp).
What high end brands are known for a bright sound?
I've always found the Dynaudio treble balance to be noticably forward leaning. Certainly not in the warm speaker camp....to my ears, anyway.
Bright sounding speakers?
Thiel.
PS: I agree with your statement "warm is better".
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Well, the customer is always right. But if you weren't a customer, I might suggest it's the program material that's thin, flat, and harsh unless warmed up by a speaker that has excess energy in the midbass.
I would think at least Tool or Metallica have decent recordings. One of my Tool albums is HDCD. Maybe I just like excess energy in the midbass.
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It's almost like they are different speakers when playing that type of music. The music is thin, flat, and kind of harsh. There is no fullness to the sound. Every other music I have tried, sounds great. They are also great for Home Theatre which I use my system for often.
I guess I'll have to decide if it's a compromise I'm willing to make. I don't know if I'll be able to live with them, because I'll have to cut out a large portion of the music I enjoy.
If your system is awesome at times, and crappy at other times, it is revealing and showing what is on your recordings.
If you voice and tune your system to sound sweet and full on everything, the footprint on the music is large, and you will get a homoginized sound in which bad recodings sound OK or good, and really excellent recordings sound syrupy and thick, and will never sound as brilliant as they should.
Your system only has to satisfy one person....you! So either approach is legitamate, and only you can decide which direction to take.
When it comes to balancing our systems, we are all faced with these decisions and compromises.
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Well, the customer is always right. But if you weren't a customer, I might suggest it's the program material that's thin, flat, and harsh unless warmed up by a speaker that has excess energy in the midbass.
I would think at least Tool or Metallica have decent recordings. One of my Tool albums is HDCD. Maybe I just like excess energy in the midbass.
HDCD has nothing to do with the quality of the recording IMHO.
George
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Dennis & Jim, when you went about voicing the HT3, what were the details of your environment and setup?
This is a pretty complicated subject. For starters, the measurements used in the initial crossover design are anechoic over most of the range–they would look the same irrespective of the room in which they were taken. So the basic crossover design, by which I mean optimizing phase and spl relationships in the critical crossover region, is really room-independent. I like to think the HT3 sounds as open and transparent as it does because of all the attention that went into the crossover frequencies. Room effects start to enter only in the final voicing, which is really a matter of L-pad settings. I optimize my crossovers for a listening distance of 4-to-4.5 meters. The room in which I listened to the HT3's was designed for live concerts, primarily piano. The floor was quite large and irregularly shaped . The floor was carpeted, but the expansive rear wall (about 30 feet wide) was paneled in 3/4" thick fir. The result was a clear but slightly warm acoustic, with lots of room for the speakers to breathe. A flat tweeter setting sounds best in that room, and the HT3 is basically voiced flat. But I do realize other rooms could call for a cooler setting, and that’s why I designed the contour switch for Jim. I’ve heard the HT3 and most of my other designs in a wide variety of rooms with wildly different acoustics at various DIY meetings. Those designs have never really sounded bright–at least not when compared with the other entries. Most of the variation has been in perceived lower midbass balance, which is highly room-dependant. As for toe-in, I didn’t use any. I always make sure the on-axis response and response at 15-20 degrees off-axis horizontally is smooth. Under those conditions, you really shouldn’t need any, although the closer you sit, the more you might want to toe them in a little to optimize the phase integration in the crossover region(s). I hope to have an HT3 in my new room shortly. I’ll check all the measurements to make sure everything is optimized for the current run of drivers, and I’ll listen carefully to make sure the voicing also works in the new house.
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Well, the customer is always right. But if you weren't a customer, I might suggest it's the program material that's thin, flat, and harsh unless warmed up by a speaker that has excess energy in the midbass.
I would think at least Tool or Metallica have decent recordings. One of my Tool albums is HDCD. Maybe I just like excess energy in the midbass.
HDCD has nothing to do with the quality of the recording IMHO.
George
I guess my point was that those are real world, very popular, high budget recordings. Tool is a high quality recording IMO.
I just want to make it clear that the HT3's sound great with everything except metal, rap, and punk. If somebody doesn't listen to that type of music, they are great all around. I just happen to like that type of music, so they are not perfect for me. I think it's important to put that out there, so somebody considering them gets all of the facts. I'm not trying to discourage people from buying them. I am just reporting my experience.
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Well, the customer is always right. But if you weren't a customer, I might suggest it's the program material that's thin, flat, and harsh unless warmed up by a speaker that has excess energy in the midbass.
I would think at least Tool or Metallica have decent recordings. One of my Tool albums is HDCD. Maybe I just like excess energy in the midbass.
Tool I don't think is thin or harsh, but all the metallica albums I own (I own many) are all thin and harsh, at least a bit. Its a double edge sword with really good revealing gear. That is why Frank's tone controls are a good thing for the not so great recordings where the music is great.
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I’ll check all the measurements to make sure everything is optimized for the current run of drivers, and I’ll listen carefully to make sure the voicing also works in the new house.
Also might be wise to assure your mic is properly calibrated. :wink:
-Krull
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Tool I don't think is thin or harsh, but all the metallica albums I own (I own many) are all thin and harsh, at least a bit. Its a double edge sword with really good revealing gear. That is why Frank's tone controls are a good thing for the not so great recordings where the music is great.
Frank's preamps are an option. I would need to sell some other stuff first. I would want a tube pre with tone controls, and home theatre bypass. Does one of Frank's preamps have all of those features?
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I guess my point was that those are real world, very popular, high budget recordings. Tool is a high quality recording IMO.
I just want to make it clear that the HT3's sound great with everything except metal, rap, and punk. If somebody doesn't listen to that type of music, they are great all around. I just happen to like that type of music, so they are not perfect for me. I think it's important to put that out there, so somebody considering them gets all of the facts. I'm not trying to discourage people from buying them. I am just reporting my experience.
Believe it or not, my wife is the hard rocker in our marriage. :lol: In fact, she is excited about Def Leppard/Journey concert coming up. I don't know why since she sees them at least twice a year. I volunteered to baby sit while she goes with a buddy. I have to build wife points somewhere. :mrgreen: Anyway, I sometimes humor her and crank some Def Leppard and Metallica at times, but most of them are harsh up top. If you are playing them off CD's make sure your copies are not the 80s presssings (bad) and try Behringer DEQ 9624 for EQ. It's a poor man's TACT for digital source. If you have a DAC, you can stay in the digital realm by placing it between your SB and DAC. You won't have to deal with SB analog out either, if that is bothering you.
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I’ll check all the measurements to make sure everything is optimized for the current run of drivers, and I’ll listen carefully to make sure the voicing also works in the new house.
Also might be wise to assure your mic is properly calibrated. :wink:
Wink wink. Actually, I just ordered another calibrated mic for that very purpose, and I hooked it up last night. Looks pretty much like the other one.
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Also might be wise to assure your mic is properly calibrated. :wink:
Wink wink. Actually, I just ordered another calibrated mic for that very purpose, and I hooked it up last night. Looks pretty much like the other one.
That's good to hear. We both know what can happen if one simply assumes their measurement equipment is accurate. :oops:
-Krull
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Pugs,
Are you playing the music that sounds good on the Salks as loudly as the Metallica etc?
The reason I ask is this ... until you get 200 or 300 hours up on those BlackGates they will not "open up" and provide ultimate separation or smoothness. This will be less evident on less 'busy' music (such as acoustic, jazz, blues etc) but will add harshness and congestion on heavy and raw stuff like heavy metal etc. Also, because we tend to relax to blues, smooth jazz etc, but rock out to heavy metal etc, we tend to listen to the heavier music at louder volumes. This will make the edginess of the BlackGates more evident.
I know you already know this, but I strongly suggest doing the old speaker break-in routine (ie. face to face, one out of phase, blanket over top) 24/7 for a week. This will help break in the speakers and BlackGates and give your anxiety a bit of a rest.
I haven't heard the Salks. I've heard many people say they are very 'neutral' and 'dry', but you are about the first or second (I have seen) to describe them as 'bright'. So, chances are that they are not 'bright' and that this is being caused by something else ....most likely the BlackGates in the SB, possibly your room. I'd knock out the BlackGates first by doing the break-in thing. The problem may just disappear.
If there is no improvement, then carefully analyse your room and experiment and test. If still no good, then (assuming there is nothing wrong with your particular pair of Salks) either the recordings aren't great or your hearing is different to that of other Salk owners. Nothing wrong with that, we are all different, it would just mean that the Salks are not for you or that you need to tailor the top end response.
Good luck with it, Pugs.
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I voted bright....but I'd like to have voted bright with some reservation.
I've heard Salk Speakers at RMAF....in Iowa.
And at an individulas home in Texas.
I've heard DM designs 1801, Plop in-a -box
...and directly comapred AV-1 to MBO1.
I'd say DM designs are not as warm sounding as others.
maybe a tad less BSC. Wheterh this is bright or more
neutral I don't know.
So much depends on the tweeter used. There was some
difference between the HT-1 & 1801.
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I've heard DM designs 1801, Plop in-a -box
...and directly comapred AV-1 to MBO1.
I'd say DM designs are not as warm sounding as others.
maybe a tad less BSC.
Actually, the MB0W1 has more BSC than the AV-1. I've also had a chance to compare them side-by-side and measure. The difference is that, from my perspective, the MB0W1 midrange is less elevelated, and in comparison that can bring out the treble.
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Although I don't have HT3s, I have HT2s, I agree with the premise that it's the recording and not the speaker that is "bright".
I've had the same experience with varying degrees with previous speakers in my system.
Previous to the HT2s, I had 1801s and it wasn't just Tool that sounded harsh and thin, especially when cranked.
I had the same experience with Waveforms although the electronics were different then(not as good) but I was using the BAT
cd player which is not a bright source by any stretch nor are the Waveforms.
I also had to adjust my reference point when I got the HT2s.
I've since had a few marathon listening sessions so from my view the Salks are not fatiquing.
BTW, Excellent question regarding setup and listening position.
Good to know.
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50% bright rating out there? Gee, more bright electronics out there than I would have expected.
Frank Van Alstine
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I listened to music all night last night and not only did it sound fantastic, I can say with absolute certainty that my speakers on my system do not sound bright or harsh in the least. In fact, I don't think I've heard better. Certainly not in my home. So how to explain the 50% bright vote? I tend to agree with Toobluvr and others that certain music is poorly recorded (with a bright sound). I don't find the speakers fatiguing at all though and in fact have to drag myself away at times when it's getting too late and I have to work the next day. It just goes to show how subjective and ultimately unreliable other peoples reviews of speakers are. You just have to hear for yourself I guess.
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Over the years, I have read many posts on the topics of both speaker brightness and warmth. So I thought I might post a few observations.
Nothing in life is free - speaker design is all about trade-offs. My perspective is based on working in many recording studios over the last 30 years. So it may vary slightly from yours.
In this environment, it is critical to be able to hear every subtle nuance of the mix you are currently working on. This means the speaker system must be highly detailed and accurate. When we began work on the Veracity series speakers, it was with this perspective in mind.
Will a highly detailed speaker expose weaknesses in poor recordings? Yes. Will it expose short-comings in up-line source equipment? Absolutely. But it will also bring out detail in great recordings that the majority of other speaker systems are simply not capable of reproducing. In short, a highly detailed and accurate speaker will faithfully reproduce whatever is fed them in a very natural and realistic fashion.
Both the Seas Excel W18 and the G2 and LCY pure ribbon tweeters used in the Veracity designs are highly accurate and extremely detailed. They were chosen for this reason.
We certainly could have chosen a midwoofer that was "warmer" than the W18. But the trade-off would have resulted in a speaker that was not as capable of rendering minute detail in recordings. This would not have been consistent with our design criteria for these speakers.
With respect to brightness and warmth, there are a number of things to consider.
First, can a given tweeter be voiced flat without causing listener fatigue? Many traditional dome tweeters can be very fatiguing if voiced flat. So in many speaker designs the tweeter voicing is rolled off slightly to compensate. This results in a speaker that is non-fatiguing, but also lacks detail in the high treble. If you are used to a speaker voiced in this fashion, any speaker voiced flat will tend to sound bright (at least until you become accustomed to flat response).
With the G2 ribbon tweeter (and the LCY tweeter in the new HT2's), listener fatigue is not an issue. Distortion in these tweeters is so low in the audible frequencies that it is simply not an issue. These tweeters can be voiced flat without any concern with regard to this issue. That is one major reason we chose to use them.
The second issue concerns the "warmth" of the mid-woofer. The W18 uses a very stiff, very low-mass magnesium cone. This allows it to reproduce detail in the midrange that other drivers simply can't. But while it is very detailed, it is rarely described as being "warm."
What is it that contributes to the "warmth" of a driver? In a word, distortion. Paper coned drivers, generally described as being warm, are generally quite a bit higher in distortion.
It is important to note that this "warmth" is not contained in the recordings themselves, but the result of distortion added to the sound being reproduced. This higher level of distortion is masking detail contained in the recording. With highly-detailed speakers such as the Veracity series, you will hear detail in recordings that "warmer" speakers are simply not capable of reproducing.
This is especially critical when it comes to overtone structures. Instruments playing the same fundamental tones can be differentiated by their overtone structures. A trumpet sounds different than a clarinet because their overtone structures are different and, it is important to note, are at much lower levels than the fundamental tones being played.
The ability of a speaker to reproduce minute detail in the overtone structures of instruments will contribute to a level of realism that lesser speakers are simply not able to deliver.
The third factor to consider is the nature of the recording itself. Many rock recordings (especially earlier ones) were mixed and mastered using relatively poor playback systems. This was done by choice. Yamaha NS10 speakers were, and still are, quite commonly used in these mixing sessions. They are used because they more closely approximate the playback systems (often AM radios) of typical listeners than the highly-detailed monitor systems normally used in studios.
Because these speakers are not typically not very accurate, extensive EQ is used to boost both the top and bottom end. This is done to compensate for the speaker's inadequacies. The music is also highly compressed so that it sounds louder on average. Both of these factors rob the recording of detail and destroy its original tonal balance.
While the result can sound quite acceptable on AM/FM radio or with an inferior sound system, a highly detailed and accurate speaker system will readily expose the overly-bright nature of the mix.
As I mentioned above, speaker design is all about trade-offs. While warmer, higher-distortion drivers can help tame poor recordings, they will also render great recordings in a mediocre fashion. This is because the higher distortion levels that tame poor recordings also mask detail in great recordings. It is all about trade-offs.
The Veracity series speakers were designed to be as detailed and accurate as current driver technology will allow. They were not designed to add artificial warmth to overly bright recordings or source equipment. Nor were they designed to be bright. They were designed to faithfully reproduce whatever is fed to them in a highly detailed, accurate and natural fashion, and with a high degree of realism. Anything less (or more) would not have met their design criteria.
As indicated above, your mileage may vary.
- Jim
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50% bright rating out there? Gee, more bright electronics out there than I would have expected.
Frank Van Alstine
I wonder how many people answering actually own or have extensively listened to the HT3's?
I know Jim is busy these days, but I don't think he has sold around 40 pairs.
George
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It just goes to show how subjective and ultimately unreliable other peoples reviews of speakers are. You just have to hear for yourself I guess.
Great quote Joe!
Unless you know the person's taste and their actual system, their review has limited value.
I tend to look for trends in multiple reviews if I can't meet the above criteria. But as this poll's results have shown, that can also throw you a curveball.
George
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Jim - words of great interest and wisdom. Thanks.
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50% bright rating out there? Gee, more bright electronics out there than I would have expected.
Frank Van Alstine
I wonder how many people answering actually own or have extensively listened to the HT3's?
I know Jim is busy these days, but I don't think he has sold around 40 pairs.
George
As one who NOW owns a pair of HT3s and HTC (abet only for 1 week), I would say they are very neutral and detailed. They will absolutely tell you when the recording is not a good one. Many Cd's that I used to listen to now sound poor - but WOW the good ones are really GREAT.
I will update my thoughts more with pictures under "Steve's Speakers Updated" thread.
Jim, GREAT detail reply on describing your speakers!
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Pugs,
Are you playing the music that sounds good on the Salks as loudly as the Metallica etc?
The reason I ask is this ... until you get 200 or 300 hours up on those BlackGates they will not "open up" and provide ultimate separation or smoothness. This will be less evident on less 'busy' music (such as acoustic, jazz, blues etc) but will add harshness and congestion on heavy and raw stuff like heavy metal etc. Also, because we tend to relax to blues, smooth jazz etc, but rock out to heavy metal etc, w ...
I have been experimenting with playing all music at all levels. When the music gets busy, that's when things begin to sound more harsh and congested. Things have improved quite a bit this week. I think you are right about the Blackgates. My poorly recorded music is sounding better and better. I have also experimented with my acousical treatments and have a pretty good balance now. The next step is to get some acousic foam to absorb some of the high frequency energy. Any recommendations?
I was in the car with the kids last night when my wife called from home. She was very excited about the speakers. She said something like "The speakers sound f---ing amazing. I want ten more" She said she was dancing all around the house. She had a few glasses of wine in her, but I was still happy to know that she was enjoying the system.
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The HT3s sound so good that my best gal Friday said, "I have to have a set of these" upon first seeing them when coming into the lab after they had been set up, and that was even before they had been turned on for her.
Jim is working on some pretty stupendeous wood for her with a lot of very light color and detailed graining.
Frank
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I'd say the terminology used in the poll contributes negativity. What I mean by this is most Salk owners, I would expect, have a preferance for neutral, resolving speakers with detail. So they would answer "neutral" in the poll. "Bright" is a negative term for "neutral" to people with these preferance. Those of us who prefer detail etc. often refer to "warm" speakers as Rolled-off or "soft". Negative terms to those who prefer that sound. They prefer the term "warm". It's like SS versus tubes, its a terminology war, often enough. It would be hard to imagine anyone calling Salk warm. But easy to see those who like a rolled-of voicing calling them bright. It's all in the details. :D
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The next step is to get some acousic foam to absorb some of the high frequency energy. Any recommendations?
I use Foambymail (http://www.foambymail.com/soundproofing.html) under velvet curtains. This should work.
Joe
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I would like to change my vote from bright to neutral. A week of break in of both the HT3's and Squeezebox did wonders. Good recordings sound incredible and bad recordings sound pretty good. I no longer miss "warm" sounding speakers. The HT3's are the best speakers I have ever heard.
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Glad things are working out.
I was very happy with my system till I heard my friend's yesterday. :cry:
George
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Glad things are working out.
I was very happy with my system till I heard my friend's yesterday. :cry:
George
What system does your friend own? How much do all his gears cost?
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What system does your friend own? How much do all his gears cost?
I just posted about it here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=27489.msg244582#244582
As for cost...let's just say it will leave a serious dent in your bank account.
George
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I would like to change my vote from bright to neutral. A week of break in of both the HT3's and Squeezebox did wonders. Good recordings sound incredible and bad recordings sound pretty good. I no longer miss "warm" sounding speakers. The HT3's are the best speakers I have ever heard.
I notice mine breaking in as well. Ill bet in the next couple of weeks it will be absloutly perfect.
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I would like to change my vote from bright to neutral. A week of break in of both the HT3's and Squeezebox did wonders. Good recordings sound incredible and bad recordings sound pretty good. I no longer miss "warm" sounding speakers. The HT3's are the best speakers I have ever heard.
:wink:
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My highly modified B&W 801 speakers are now sounding like full range mud in comparison to the HT3s.
Frank Van Alstine
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My highly modified B&W 801 speakers are now sounding like full range mud in comparison to the HT3s.
Frank Van Alstine
do I take this to mean your HT3 sound that much better than the 801s?!!
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Yup! Frank
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Yup! Frank
Yep,, I have to agree the HT3s are realy great sounding. Perhaps we should have a "chant". Do you remember the old song "I want my MTV"???
Let chang it to "I want my HT3s!!!!
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I'd like to add my .02 cents worth. I've not heard the Salk's but suspect that they're well designed and neither bright or warm enough to be an issue.
On the other hand most people's problems with brightness or warmth can be attributed to their speaker/listener position and room acoustics. This assumes a quality recording of course.
The type of music you listen to is hard to listen to on a revealing system in my opinion. I actually listen to my rock cd's on my vintage system with Dynaco A 25's for speakers. The lack of dynamics, harshness and over processed recordings are not easy for me to enjoy on my main system and I suspect any highly revealing system.
An excellent solution in my opinion is to get a hybrid power amp. The AVA hybrids are outstanding making any SS amp I've heard seem second rate. These are very smooth and will not highlight the bad part of poorly recording music. A pure SS amp imo adds some transistor sound unless you spend ALOT. A tube preamp will also help but in my very limited experience you lose bass quality.
It's not the speakers is the bottom line. Work with some quality recordings and get your speaker/listener position tweaked to the best balanced with several good recordings. Try rearranging room treatments. I've found this to have more of an effect than I would have expected and just did it out of curiosity. Very certainly make sure the first reflection points are treated. Hope this helps.