AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Danny Richie on 9 Nov 2015, 05:12 pm
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(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/55181e1de4b0187304f87afc/t/5563adfbe4b0576ead701bec/1432595964670/?format=500w)
The new Elac speakers are quite the buzz, and they were a real hit at RMAF. They appeared to be a solid performer in the lower ranges of the cost spectrum. And they performed much better than other speakers in their price range and then some. At RMAF the Elac room sounded good enough to embarrass a lot of rooms with MUCH more costly speakers. So quite a few people began asking me how far these little speakers can be taken with some internal upgrades. I had enough people ask me about these that I felt it worth looking into. I even called up Andrew Jones and chatted with him about it.
Then I had a customer send me a pair of the B6 model still in the unopened box.
The first thing to do was to set them up and for testing and measuring to see where they were. They measured about as expected based on what I heard from the larger floor standing model at RMAF. Typically various problems and issues tend to stand out like a sore thumb to me. I hear them immediately and can't get past them. The larger ones playing at RMAF had no glaring problems other than the cabinet walls buzzing along with each bass note. Other than that they were smooth and balanced. They didn't standing out in any one way. They just sounded real good (too good) and very balanced for their price point.
Okay, all set up for measuring and here we go....
Here is the on axis response. This was the best response I got out of the two of them (the pair). This was without the grill.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20response.jpg)
They are real smooth up to about 2.5kHz. These will be pretty easy to listen to. The top end is pretty rolled off though. That will effect the imaging and spacial ques up there in the top octave. Still, overall this is real good. This is without the grill.
There was also good consistency with the pair. Here is the response curve of each speaker.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20pair.jpg)
And here is the effect of the grill. With the grill it makes the blue line.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20grill%20effect.jpg)
And here is the spectral decay. This is really the most telling of all measurements if you want to know how something will sound. And the spectral decay of the B6 looks really good. It decays very quickly and stores very little energy. There is a little excess ring in the 3kHz to 6kHz range but not bad at all. This was actually a little woofer cone break up. The crossover pushes it down about 20db. That's not great, but this is much better than a lot of speakers I have tested.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20csd.jpg)
The horizontal off axis looks real good. These are taken on axis and then at 10,20, 30, and 40 degrees off axis.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20horizontal%20off%20axis.jpg)
The vertical off axis looks good too. There is just a little bit of a dipped area that forms in the crossover region as height increases, but that is not bad at all either. These are taken at 1 meter and each additional measure is made moving up four inches.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20vertical%20off%20axis.jpg)
Next up is the impedance curve. Here we see a couple of issues. The impedance levels from the woofer to the tweeter are a bit of a mis-match. The levels are unusually higher on the tweeter end compared to the woofer. Some amplifiers will react differently to the different loads. For instance would you use the 8 ohm or 16 ohm taps on your tube amp? I think most customers aren't going to be driving them with high end tube amps though.
There were also a couple of resonate peaks in the 23Hz range and the 55Hz range. These are being caused by internal standing waves in the box. These can also excite the cabinet walls adding to the low frequency buzz of thin unbraced panels.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20impedance.jpg)
Next up was to remove the beauty rings that are covering the driver mounting. This is a little tricky to take off if you don't know how to do it. I finally figured it out. You have to reach in around the woofer edge and get it to pop up a little. Then slid in a flat head screw driver and twist it carefully to raise up each of the push in tabs. Do the woofer area first then you can move up to the area around the tweeter. Here is the front side.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/trim%20front.jpg)
And here is the back side.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/trim%20back.jpg)
And here is the speaker with it removed.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20front.jpg)
And here is the new response curve (light blue) without the beauty rings.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20with%20and%20without%20ring.jpg)
So if you want to improve the response just remove the grills and beauty rings.
Next was to have a look at the crossover. It is not bad for this price point. I see a lot worse.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20network%20pic1.jpg)
I hate seeing sand caste resistors, but for this price point it is what I expected. All poly caps though. The inductor on the tweeter network is an air core, but the woofer network used a very thin gauge iron core inductor.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20network%20pic2.jpg)
Mounting the network externally allowed me to measure the drivers independently. So I took a look at the tweeter curve.
Here is the tweeters response with and without the beauty ring. The blue line is without the beauty ring.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20with%20and%20without%20ring%20tweeter%20only.jpg)
Also the top end was pretty rolled off. So I by-passed the inline resistor with a .47uF Sonicap. The light blue line shows the lifted top end.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20tweeter%20lift.jpg)
This brought the top end up and made it much smoother overall.
Now here is the response of the speaker and individual drivers with the beauty rings off and the by-pass cap across the tweeters resistor. Looking pretty good now. The actual crossover point is at 2.5kHz rather than the advertised 3kHz point.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20crossover.jpg)
The by-pass of the inline resistor used on the tweeter will definitely have to be part of a budget upgrade.
Also, with the drivers out we can see the issues with the cabinets. There was very little damping material internally. And the unattenuated standing waves were causing the resonances seen in the impedance curves.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20inside.jpg)
The front baffle is 3/4" thick, but the rest of the cabinet only has 1/2" thick unbraced panels. And it is the soft Chinese type of MDF that you can dig into with your finger nail. So lining the cabinet with No Rez will be a big upgrade. It will tighten up the bass response and clean up the panel resonances and the internal standing wave issues. This will clean the sound up considerably from the bass response up into the vocal region.
And here's a bonus tweak. Take some of the left over No Rez and cut it in small strips. Then peal the foam layer off of it so that you just have the damper only. Now apply those to the back side of the stamped steel woofer frame. This will keep the frame from ringing.
So I am going to offer what I call the level 1 B6 upgrade. This will include a sheet of No Rez. It will include a .47uF Gen. 2 Sonicap for lifting the top octave. It will include a 1.5uF Sonicap to replace the poly cap that's on the board. This will improve detail and clarity in the upper ranges. And it will include a 20 ohm Mills resistor. This will further improve clarity over the stock sand cast resistor and lift the range that the tweeter covers by about 1/2 of a db. This will help balance out the response. The crossover upgrades are easy add on's to the stock crossover board that the average Joe can do himself. The cost for all the parts, the sheet of No Rez, instructions, and support is $76. plus shipping.
Here is some illustrations for you guys to show how easy the Level 1 Mod really is.
You have to un-solder the tweeter cap and pull it off the board. It's the small yellow one that is a 1.5uF value. One side is easy to get to. Un-solder it first. Then use a box cutting knife or an exact-o knife to cut through a little of the adhesive holding it down. Put it up and stand it up on its end and then you can get the other side un-soldered pretty easily.
Next, un-solder the the leads on the 22 ohm resistor and just fold them to the side so that they are out of the way. Don't bother pulling it off the board. It is glued on too well and it doesn't hurt anything to just leave it there.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/cross1.jpg)
Now take a very small drill bit and drill out the solder holes so that you have a fresh hole to slide the new parts in through.
Now twist the new .47uF Sonicap onto the new Mills 20 ohm resister as seen here. Solder them together and solder them into the spot where the old resistor was mounted.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/cross2.jpg)
Then flip it over and solder in the new 1.5uF Sonicap into the same spot as the old 1.5uF cap. Be careful not to let your soldering gun touch the small inductor next to it.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/cross3.jpg)
It should now look like this:
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/cross4.jpg)
Lastly, run a little line of hot glue across the parts to help hold them all down.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/cross5.jpg)
This will lift the tweeter level just a little bit, it will lift up the rolled off top end, and improve clarity all across the tweeters range.
It is a pretty simple upgrade for the average hobbyist. If you are not a hobbyist and aren't interested in un-soldering and soldering on new parts then send me your crossover and I'll put the new parts on for you and send them back ready to go. $10 plus the shipping cost is the least I can charge for dong this. It really doesn't cover my time very well, but I am making a little on the parts cost.
The rest of this mod is installing the No Rez in the cabinets. This will do away with the cabinet resonances, tighten up the bass response, and clean up the vocal region.
Again the level 1 mod is only $76.
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Next I answer the question as to how far these things can really be taken with a new point to point wired crossover and other upgrades. Well, I've done that too. And I have made several improvements besides just a parts quality upgrade. The work is done. Hang on and I'll post new information with measurements.
Okay fellow. Check this out...
I designed a whole new crossover for the B6 that made improvements in several different areas.
I lifted the tweeter output a little at the lower end of it's range while still allowing the same roll off and extension. I also pulled the woofers upper range down so that it wasn't allowed to play up into the break up area. So without putting much more of a load on the tweeter I shifted the crossover point down to 1,750Hz. Check the stock crossover verses this one and see how far down the tweeter is at 70db. It is only playing about 150 Hz lower.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20new%20crossover%20response.jpg)
I did a little phase shift manipulation as well to get the drivers closer to being in phase on and off axis (vertically). A lower crossover points help that too.
The spectral decay is a little cleaner now.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20new%20csd.jpg)
The horizontal off axis now looks a little better because the top end isn't rolled off to begin with.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20new%20horizontal%20off%20axis.jpg)
The vertical off axis looks a lot better. In fact a vertical off axis response doesn't get much better than this. This little speaker now has an extremely consistent vertical off axis. This is better than 98% of all the speakers that I have ever tested. Have a good look at this one compared to the stock one. This was done with a slight phase shift and a lower crossover point.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20new%20vertical%20off%20axis.jpg)
And here is the new impedance response. The impedance is much more balanced now. And the resonance peaks in the lower end are gone now. Just adding some fiberglass insulation to them can solve that issue.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20new%20impedance.jpg)
Here is the response at 5 degrees off axis. It is even smoother than the on axis. These are +/-1.25db.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%205%20degrees%20off%20axis.jpg)
Now we're talking about a good little speaker turning into a great little speaker. Want to stun your audiophile buddies? Take a decked out pair of these little speakers over to their place and let them compare them to their expensive whatever speakers. They'll be speechless.
Okay, the cost of taking the Elac B6 speakers to this level.... All inductors are 16 gauge Erse XQ (air core), caps are all Sonicaps, and all resistors are Mills resistors. This includes a sheet of No Rez, 14 feet of high purity Copper internal wire, and a set of tube connectors (and I discounted the tube connectors). The cost of all of these parts is $290 plus shipping.
I know, the upgrades cost more than the speakers, but the speakers didn't cost anything to begin with. You still aren't into them for very much even with the upgrades. And the drivers are pretty good. They are worth added the higher quality parts to them.
Great little speakers now. :thumb:
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Uber coolness, Danny. I'm really :scratch: surprised at the degradation from the beauty ring. I wonder if a felt pad/ring on the baffle may improve things further?
Looking forward to you wringing out all its latent potential :thumb:
Kenreau
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Uber coolness, Danny. I'm really :scratch: surprised at the degradation from the beauty ring. I wonder if a felt pad/ring on the baffle may improve things further?
Looking forward to you wringing out all its latent potential :thumb:
Kenreau
Agreed about trim piece. Looking at it from a novice point of view, it would seem removing it uncovers more "ripple" potential because of hills and valleys it exposes. I'd be curious to hear hypothesis on what's going on, always on the hunt for better understanding.
P
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Guys, I tried various felts and foams around the tweeter but it had the smoothest response with nothing around it.
Keep in mind that the upper frequency ranges do not wrap around the cabinet like lower frequency ranges. They play from the driver forward. The baffle step loss will be below 900Hz. So from there up the speaker becomes direction.
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Would gluing bracing into the cabinets also help? Bracing similar to your X-LS cabinets.
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Would gluing bracing into the cabinets also help? Bracing similar to your X-LS cabinets.
It would but it will also eat up some air space. I did not model the woofers to see if they needed more or less air space. The No Rez won't take up any air space.
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Danny, are you able to grab the phase angles when you make the impedance plots?
Thanks!
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Danny, are you able to grab the phase angles when you make the impedance plots?
Thanks!
Yeah, I can take the electrical phase too.
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(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20response.jpg)
A couple of non-audiophile people I know ordered these to use in their home theater setup, and I think the rolled top end will likely serve better for these folks using the lowish budget Japanese 5.1 home theater receivers.
I AM disappointed to see such thin cabinets with low-grade soft MDF, but I guess what else can you expect at these prices :scratch:
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is the major mod a easy DIY project or are special skills needed?
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is the major mod a easy DIY project or are special skills needed?
For the all out upgrade you will have to assemble the crossovers and you will need basic tools and soldering ability. I'd say it would be a novice level upgrade.
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Danny, does the mod improve efficiency any?
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Danny, does the mod improve efficiency any?
No, the sensitivity remains at 87db. It does maintain that sensitivity all the way across now though as the top end no longer drops off.
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Would gluing bracing into the cabinets also help? Bracing similar to your X-LS cabinets.
I worked on a pair of Celestion SL-6 that way one time. Cut 3/4" dowel rod a little shorter than the inside. Then drilled holes though the cabinet and threaded brass stews and washers to tension the cabinet.
Looking here the hole between the tweeter and woofer is perfect for front to back. The next owner was not too impressed though.
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Nice! How does the <200hz look like?
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Hi Danny. Would your mods work for the B5? I read where the only difference was the woofer size. Hopefully, though I know you haven't taken a 5 apart, the crossovers are identical. Thanks, Ron
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Hi Danny. Would your mods work for the B5? I read where the only difference was the woofer size. Hopefully, though I know you haven't taken a 5 apart, the crossovers are identical. Thanks, Ron
With the use of a different, larger driver and enclosure, I'm sure the crossover is a lot different. The larger driver will require different values for the crossover point (inductors, caps, resistors, zobel, etc, etc), any compensation that may be involved, possible different crossover point and roll-off, meaning probably the same holds true for the tweeter section.
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Danny, I've chat with you a couple of times and though I've not purchased anything from you (yet), I'll say that you are amazing. Just remarkable work. Bravo.
UL
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Hi Danny. Would your mods work for the B5? I read where the only difference was the woofer size. Hopefully, though I know you haven't taken a 5 apart, the crossovers are identical. Thanks, Ron
I'd really rather measure and test a pair before making any claims. I bet similar upgrades would be pretty easy though.
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Thanks Danny, great response. Ive just finished the exterior mods and they have had a remarkable effect on the clarity and apparent speed of this little speaker. If you ever get around to the B5 crossover mods I will certainly be interested and keep up the great work. Ron
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Danny, I don't understand- the No Rez is 1 inch thick - why won't it take up air space? I must not be understanding something.
Thanks,
UL
It would but it will also eat up some air space. I did not model the woofers to see if they needed more or less air space. The No Rez won't take up any air space.
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Danny, I don't understand- the No Rez is 1 inch thick - why won't it take up air space? I must not be understanding something.
Thanks,
UL
The foam layer slows down the air flow in the box making the woofer act like it is a larger air space. The damping layer takes up space though. Usually it is about a wash.
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I'm auditioning the EMP R5Bi's and the ELAC B5's and trying to decide which I like best. The EMP's have a clearer high end, but I'm wondering if these mods would help with the high end and clean up the low end on the B5's. Makes my decision much harder!
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The foam layer slows down the air flow in the box making the woofer act like it is a larger air space. The damping layer takes up space though. Usually it is about a wash.
So, since it is about a wash which way would the current flow? If the foam layer makes the air space larger than the damping layer takes up space would it not be prudent to add a couple of dowels in the box to stiffen it up? Or is it so close you would be taking up too much air space by adding some support.
From my experience with cheap book shelf type speakers the box pretty much always vibrates and is adding to the sound, and not in a good way.
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So, since it is about a wash which way would the current flow? If the foam layer makes the air space larger than the damping layer takes up space would it not be prudent to add a couple of dowels in the box to stiffen it up? Or is it so close you would be taking up too much air space by adding some support.
From my experience with cheap book shelf type speakers the box pretty much always vibrates and is adding to the sound, and not in a good way.
You could add a few small dowel rods if you like.
In this case though the No Rez goes a long way and is an easy install.
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I thought it would be pertinent to chime in on this thread given the interest!!
Danny does give praise to the overall performance of the speaker, so my design can't be all bad...... ;-)
It would seem that my designs are the target of aftermarket upgrades, so that’s either praise of the basic design being worthy of spending time upgrading, or an indictment of the design that it needs upgrading ;-)
I'll give you some of my thoughts on the mods that Danny proposes and also some warnings where necessary....
Firstly, let me say that I am required to point out that any modifications that you make will obviously void the warranty, so be careful!
Now this is not the first time that one of my designs has been the subject of a long thread of how to modify it to get better results. I will say now what I have said before, and I know that Danny doesn't deny this: The reason why it is worth even thinking about modifying it is that it begins as a tremendous value product for the money.
When I designed this product, I had to meet a certain price target. It's nice to think, as an audiophile, that price points are somewhat negotiable: $199, $209, $219, $229...they are all close enough aren't they? The actual answer is no. Price point is critical in retail sales. Miss by a little and sales can go to virtually zero as the large box retailer totally rejects the product when it is the wrong price point. This becomes a major challenge in the design process. Every part that adds cost to the bill of materials has to be very carefully evaluated as to its impact on the performance.
Let me go through some of these mods and look at the cost/performance issues and discuss why I chose the path that I did.
I note that Danny chose to lift the extreme top end of the response by bypassing the series resistor on the tweeter. That's nice, if that's the response that you want as opposed to the sound that has received such praise, but it adds cost. That option would have had to be paid for by taking it out of something else. Likewise the substitution of the sand cast resistor with a Mills resistor would have taken the cost way up, as would substituting the film cap with a Sonicap. I doubt that paying for these alternative caps and resistors by taking away from the overall design would be a good trade-off in the original. (As an aside, the added cap across the resistor does not work because of a supposed inductive component of the resistor. It simple reduces attenuation of the tweeter above a certain frequency).
Danny comments on the quality of the cabinet MDF and the thickness of the baffle and wrap. The cabinet is the major cost in a speaker. It would be nice, wouldn't it, to have thicker cabinet walls, internal bracing, more rigid MDF, more internal damping etc. However, all of this would greatly increase the cost, and for what? Let’s think about cabinet vibration. The major excitation source if the reaction force imparted to the magnet and hence driver frame that feeds mechanical energy into the cabinet causing it to vibrate. Now, measures to thicken up the walls, or use a higher grade of MDF, absolutely do not remove the resonances. They move them up in frequency. In fact, they can become more audible!
The grade of MDF I chose is softer and so has better internal damping, and can actually sound better than the "better" grades. In fact my early prototype cabinets were better built, with internal bracing and thicker walls. When I looked at the cost I realized that this cost would be better spent on improved cone materials, larger voice coils, larger magnets, better-than-standard xover complexity and parts etc.
Regarding the internal damping material, the cabinet is not stuffed full. This is deliberate. Besides costing more for a higher grade and more of a better damping material, there is a fallacy involved in the effect of damping material. In theory, a heavily stuffed cabinet changes from adiabatic expansion to isothermal and as such appears to be up to 1.4 times larger. This effective increase in cabinet size is offset by the greater resistive losses and so the performance gain is not that great. In the practical quantities that we are likely to see used, the effective increase is negligible. However, in a vented box system, putting in too much damping material will severely reduce the output of the vent and greatly reduce bass output. The choice I made of damping material was optimized between damping to some degree the standing waves while not impacting bass performance.
Danny shows a measurement of the impedance of the speaker that shows some apparent resonances around 25Hz and 60Hz. He attributes these to internal standing waves. This is erroneous. The cabinet cannot support standing waves at these low frequencies. If they exist they are more likely to be mechanically coupled. However these blips in the impedance curve do not show up in my measurements. I suggest that they are due to something in the measurement procedure. I know the repeat measurement after the modifications shows they are gone, but I wouldn’t attribute this to the added stuffing reducing internal standing waves. I would however encourage Danny to re-investigate these measurements.
On the subject of the trim rings, removing them will change the response measured on certain axes, but will have little effect on the frontal average response, since the effects changing at different measurement axes because they are due to diffraction, You may notice subtle changes depending on your room acoustics, and very large changes depending upon your eyesight...LOL. I designed the speaker to have the trim to improve the looks by covering the chassis and screws. A worthwhile trade I believe towards getting a successful looking visual design that will appeal even with the grille off.
Talking of eyesight, no wonder Danny is happy with the trims removed, as he could not see that the inductor he discusses is not actually connected at both ends to the same trace. The break in the trace is hidden under a component, but a simple test with a component bridge or multi-meter would have confirmed this is.
So, based on the first modification offered, you will have a speaker that looks uglier and sounds different. Your choice.
However, if you go ahead be very careful. Danny does warn about the difficulty of removing the trim. Using a flat bladed screwdriver to prize off the trim very close to the driver surround requires careful dexterity. One slip and you will tear the surround. How do I know I hear you ask? Perhaps because I’ve done it myself? At least I have lots of spare drivers at my disposal. ;-)
Also, removing components from the xover circuit board is not easy. They are all epoxied to the board. Don't expect to remove them and restore it back to original if you decide you need to.
Next, the level 2 mods. Be careful with this regarding the change in xover frequency. The change to the tweeter puts more power into it at the lower frequencies. Potentially as much as double the power. I am sure that Danny hasn't done long term power handling tests on multiple samples to make sure that it can still meet its specifications for max power. I know I have for the original design, but not for the modified version.
Additionally, during manufacture the tweeter is measured and tested to performance limits within its expected working frequency range. The spread in response away from the reference is holding within +/-0.75dB during production over the range from 3kHz to 10kHz, which is quite impressive for a budget speaker. Using it down to a lower frequency will take it into a range where I don't guarantee such tight tolerance, so your expected results could vary. I normally design around drivers that are selected to match the mean of production, not around a single sample.
Also, changing all the inductors to Erse 16 gauge air core will likely change the effective resistance of the inductors. I accounted for inductor resistance in my design, and in fact take this into account for the bass tuning. So changes in this will also alter the bass respone.
In conclusion, for the cost of the level 2 upgrade, you will get a different sound, hopefully one you like, because there is no going back if you make the changes, and remember, no warranty.
For that much extra money on top of the purchase price, you could get a pair of the F5 speakers, or wait for my next series of speakers.... :-)
I don’t want to sound like a Debbie Downer over this. Ours is a great hobby. I started as a hobbyist. It’s fun to experiment. It’s even more fun to feel accomplishment from your experiments. Just be careful. Be sure that these mods are going to give you the sound you want before you commit to making changes.
I’ll finish with a great quote. This is taken from one of the best textbooks on Acoustics, written by Leo L. Beranek. “It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else’s loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in performing a person’s opinion.”
Above all, Have fun!
Andrew
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I thought it would be pertinent to chime in on this thread given the interest!!
Danny does give praise to the overall performance of the speaker, so my design can't be all bad...... ;-)
It would seem that my designs are the target of aftermarket upgrades, so that’s either praise of the basic design being worthy of spending time upgrading, or an indictment of the design that it needs upgrading ;-)
I'd say it was a platform worthy of a few upgrades. I'd take it as praise.
Keep in mind too that this is part of the fun for a lot of people.
I will say now what I have said before, and I know that Danny doesn't deny this: The reason why it is worth even thinking about modifying it is that it begins as a tremendous value product for the money.
Yep, I agree.
When I designed this product, I had to meet a certain price target. It's nice to think, as an audiophile, that price points are somewhat negotiable: $199, $209, $219, $229...they are all close enough aren't they? The actual answer is no. Price point is critical in retail sales. Miss by a little and sales can go to virtually zero as the large box retailer totally rejects the product when it is the wrong price point. This becomes a major challenge in the design process. Every part that adds cost to the bill of materials has to be very carefully evaluated as to its impact on the performance.
I hear you man. And it's tough to produce this level of quality for this price point. I did something simular for AV123 years ago when I designed a speaker that they launched at $199 a pair.
Let me go through some of these mods and look at the cost/performance issues and discuss why I chose the path that I did.
I note that Danny chose to lift the extreme top end of the response by bypassing the series resistor on the tweeter. That's nice, if that's the response that you want as opposed to the sound that has received such praise, but it adds cost. That option would have had to be paid for by taking it out of something else. Likewise the substitution of the sand cast resistor with a Mills resistor would have taken the cost way up, as would substituting the film cap with a Sonicap. I doubt that paying for these alternative caps and resistors by taking away from the overall design would be a good trade-off in the original. (As an aside, the added cap across the resistor does not work because of a supposed inductive component of the resistor. It simple reduces attenuation of the tweeter above a certain frequency).
You don't have to defend your choices. This is better quality parts than I typically see at this price point.
Keep in mind though that for a lot of these guys it's no big deal to throw a few extra dollars at something like this to see (or hear) what the results are. It's part of the fun of the hobby.
Danny comments on the quality of the cabinet MDF and the thickness of the baffle and wrap. The cabinet is the major cost in a speaker. It would be nice, wouldn't it, to have thicker cabinet walls, internal bracing, more rigid MDF, more internal damping etc. However, all of this would greatly increase the cost, and for what?
You don't have to defend that either. You did what you had to do to hit your price targets and did a great job of it.
Let’s think about cabinet vibration. The major excitation source if the reaction force imparted to the magnet and hence driver frame that feeds mechanical energy into the cabinet causing it to vibrate. Now, measures to thicken up the walls, or use a higher grade of MDF, absolutely do not remove the resonances. They move them up in frequency. In fact, they can become more audible!
The grade of MDF I chose is softer and so has better internal damping, and can actually sound better than the "better" grades. In fact my early prototype cabinets were better built, with internal bracing and thicker walls. When I looked at the cost I realized that this cost would be better spent on improved cone materials, larger voice coils, larger magnets, better-than-standard xover complexity and parts etc.
I can understand the positive effect of using the softer MDF. I attack it a different way though. The No Rez product that I talked about uses a heavy damping layer that sticks to the cabinet wall with a pressure sensitive adhesive. It really knocks out the resonances of the cabinet walls.
Danny shows a measurement of the impedance of the speaker that shows some apparent resonances around 25Hz and 60Hz. He attributes these to internal standing waves. This is erroneous. The cabinet cannot support standing waves at these low frequencies.
You are correct. Standing waves is not technically what it is. Those waves are too long to propagate in the box. It is more of a pressure wave. There is a resonance there though that additional damping took away.
If they exist they are more likely to be mechanically coupled. However these blips in the impedance curve do not show up in my measurements. I suggest that they are due to something in the measurement procedure. I know the repeat measurement after the modifications shows they are gone, but I wouldn’t attribute this to the added stuffing reducing internal standing waves. I would however encourage Danny to re-investigate these measurements.
Those peaks are there. I will take some more measurements to confirm.
On the subject of the trim rings, removing them will change the response measured on certain axes, but will have little effect on the frontal average response, since the effects changing at different measurement axes because they are due to diffraction, You may notice subtle changes depending on your room acoustics, and very large changes depending upon your eyesight...LOL. I designed the speaker to have the trim to improve the looks by covering the chassis and screws. A worthwhile trade I believe towards getting a successful looking visual design that will appeal even with the grille off.
I'm not knocking the trim rings. They do look good. But there is a subtle change in the response from them.
Talking of eyesight, no wonder Danny is happy with the trims removed, as he could not see that the inductor he discusses is not actually connected at both ends to the same trace. The break in the trace is hidden under a component, but a simple test with a component bridge or multi-meter would have confirmed this is.
You are correct. The break in the trace is hidden under the zip tie. And I retracted that observation from the original post.
So, based on the first modification offered, you will have a speaker that looks uglier and sounds different.
I think it will sound more than just different.
Next, the level 2 mods. Be careful with this regarding the change in xover frequency. The change to the tweeter puts more power into it at the lower frequencies. Potentially as much as double the power. I am sure that Danny hasn't done long term power handling tests on multiple samples to make sure that it can still meet its specifications for max power. I know I have for the original design, but not for the modified version.
I did carefully take into consideration the power handling of the tweeter. I really didn't let it play down much lower though. At 70db it only plays about 150Hz lower.
Additionally, during manufacture the tweeter is measured and tested to performance limits within its expected working frequency range. The spread in response away from the reference is holding within +/-0.75dB during production over the range from 3kHz to 10kHz, which is quite impressive for a budget speaker.
Yep, the consistency from one to the other was very good.
Using it down to a lower frequency will take it into a range where I don't guarantee such tight tolerance, so your expected results could vary. I normally design around drivers that are selected to match the mean of production, not around a single sample.
It is not that much lower. The crossover point is lower mainly because I pulled the woofer back a little more.
I tell what (Texas speak). You can sell me a handful of tweeters and if anyone blows a tweeter as a result of my mod then I'll replace their tweeter for free.
Also, changing all the inductors to Erse 16 gauge air core will likely change the effective resistance of the inductors. I accounted for inductor resistance in my design, and in fact take this into account for the bass tuning. So changes in this will also alter the bass respone.
That's true. The larger gauge air core inductor has .4 ohms less resistance. That is going to lift the bass output below 200Hz by about 1/10th to 1/20th of a db at its peak increase. It's not that much. And I also matched it to the sensitivity across the board. So it isn't bass heavy.
In conclusion, for the cost of the level 2 upgrade, you will get a different sound, hopefully one you like, because there is no going back if you make the changes, and remember, no warranty.
No worries. Sell me a handful of drivers and I'll warranty them.
For that much extra money on top of the purchase price, you could get a pair of the F5 speakers, or wait for my next series of speakers.... :-)
Or they could buy some of our higher end kits too, but upgrading stuff is fun. And most of the kits that I offer include upgrade options. I guess you can say I even upgrade my own designs.
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So, Danny, I gather from the tone of your reply to the designer that you would change nothing in your recommendations, and that if they were your speakers you would run them with the trim rings and the grill cloth off? I think they look appalling with the trim rings off, and that appearances do count for something to most people, unless your speakers are behind scrims or screens in which case - go nuts!
Sometimes your writing suggests to me that you presume that no one of technical discernment equal (or superior) to yours will read and ponder what you are saying. This might not, in reality, always be the case.
I, too, wondered about the notion of 22 and 55Hz standing waves inside a box of these small dimensions and wrote off your use of the term as an opportunity taken to sound technically adept, again, assuming on your part that no reader would be the wiser. In your response to this single point of Andrew's you appear to be doing this again, but twice this time, in the evoking of the terms propagation and pressure waves. You say the waves are too long to propagate in the box, but this also is false. They will propagate all right, they just will not form standing waves. And, by the way, what do you mean by "it's more of a pressure wave"? More of a pressure wave than what? Are you implying there is a difference between a "pressure wave" and a simple sound wave?
Things are complex enough without intentional technical obfuscation.
If I were looking to improve the sound of this speaker and didn't care about the warranty aspect, I would go no further than replacing the cap in series with the tweeter and maybe the resistor but would think hard about doing even that, considering the warranty aspect. I would also experiment with the effect of removing just the metal grill in front of the tweeter but leaving the trim rings. As to the addition of No Rez, I'd be concerned about upsetting what is, in all likelihood, a carefully tuned box/driver system and spoiling the lower mids and upper bass.
Harbeth also makes the design choice of flexible lightweight but lossy box sides over heavy, rigid ones for the same reason as has Andrew mentions: shifting the inevitable resonance to a less bothersome, lower frequency (with lower 'Q', often) and Harbeth is renowned for accurate tonality and low distortion levels through the mid range, if nothing else.
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Thank you Andrew for offering such a great value in today's very expensive audio world. :thumb:
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Things are complex enough without intentional technical obfuscation.
I think you are mistaken in your assessment.
As to the addition of No Rez, I'd be concerned about upsetting what is, in all likelihood, a carefully tuned box/driver system and spoiling the lower mids and upper bass.
Taking away cabinet resonances isn't going to upset what is. It takes away what isn't supposed to be there.
Harbeth also makes the design choice of flexible lightweight but lossy box sides over heavy, rigid ones for the same reason as has Andrew mentions: shifting the inevitable resonance to a less bothersome, lower frequency (with lower 'Q', often) and Harbeth is renowned for accurate tonality and low distortion levels through the mid range, if nothing else.
Allowing the cabinet to become an instrument or add bloom from cabinet resonances is not being true to the input signal. And I am not saying Andrew is deliberately using cabinet resonances as part of the design. I think his choices were made based on the price point limitations that he was working in. Harbeth does do that though. I personally find the notion of deliberately adding something that is not part of the input signal to be a move in the wrong direction.
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Fascinating. I love the explanations back and forth between AJ and DR. :thumb:
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Fascinating. I love the explanations back and forth between AJ and DR. :thumb:
Sure makes it clear that there is so much more to speaker design than just measuring a F/R curve.
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Sure makes it clear that there is so much more to speaker design than just measuring a F/R curve.
Yep. It's insanely complex. Sometimes people forget that speaker design is both an art and a science. Science doesn't create a great speaker. It's the art that puts the icing on the cake. And to create a masterpiece requires a wealth of experience.
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Yep. It's insanely complex. Sometimes people forget that speaker design is both an art and a science. Science doesn't create a great speaker. It's the art that puts the icing on the cake. And to create a masterpiece requires a wealth of experience.
Nope. It's ALL science.
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Thank you Andrew and welcome to A.C.!
This is the best thread about speakers on A.C for some time! It's wonderful to hear two serious designers discuss thoughts and technical aspects of their choices for value and sound. I have great respect for both Andrew and Danny based on what I have heard from their designs.
Andrew, I am anxious to hear what some of your mid price designs do in the future. This little B6 speaker is amazing for the price, but it makes me wonder what is possible if your costs were allowed to be $250.00 (assuming a retail of +/-$1200.00)
Hoping for more discussions like this in the future. "None of us is smart as all of us" :D
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Nope. It's ALL science.
Care to explain to us how that ERS paper works?
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Fascinating. I love the explanations back and forth between AJ and DR. :thumb:
+1
Everything built is a trade off, not just speakers. I have yet to buy a bicycle I was completely happy with right off the bat. Sometimes I only make minor upgrades and sometimes I would only keep the frame, replacing everything else.
I have even gone so far as buying two rear cassette clusters, breakng them apart and recombining the cogs to get the gear ratios I wanted on a particular bike. And even then that was a trade off because I sacrificed some shifting smoothness.
If it wasn't for having to build to price points and for majority appeal there would be no such thing as aftermarket or boutique industries. Also, if everything was built to it's absolute maximum potential only the richest could afford anything.
Even those of us who like to tinker in this hobby still have to make trade offs whether due to budget, space or spouse constraints :o
Then we all have our personal limitations. I am more than happy to tinker with speaker upgrades, as long as somebody who knows what they are doing does the design work, but when it comes to amps, rolling tubes is the limit of my skills. Even then I need advice.
This has been a long winded way of saying both sides of the debate are legitimate. Both have their place and the existence of one in no way diminishes the other.
Bully for All!!!
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Care to explain to us how that ERS paper works?
I'm sure you know as it's science that has been used for many years. I've used a form of it in tape for literally 15 years.
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So, Danny, I gather from the tone of your reply to the designer that you would change nothing in your recommendations, and that if they were your speakers you would run them with the trim rings and the grill cloth off? I think they look appalling with the trim rings off, and that appearances do count for something to most people, unless your speakers are behind scrims or screens in which case - go nuts!
Sometimes your writing suggests to me that you presume that no one of technical discernment equal (or superior) to yours will read and ponder what you are saying. This might not, in reality, always be the case.
I, too, wondered about the notion of 22 and 55Hz standing waves inside a box of these small dimensions and wrote off your use of the term as an opportunity taken to sound technically adept, again, assuming on your part that no reader would be the wiser. In your response to this single point of Andrew's you appear to be doing this again, but twice this time, in the evoking of the terms propagation and pressure waves. You say the waves are too long to propagate in the box, but this also is false. They will propagate all right, they just will not form standing waves. And, by the way, what do you mean by "it's more of a pressure wave"? More of a pressure wave than what? Are you implying there is a difference between a "pressure wave" and a simple sound wave?
Things are complex enough without intentional technical obfuscation.
If I were looking to improve the sound of this speaker and didn't care about the warranty aspect, I would go no further than replacing the cap in series with the tweeter and maybe the resistor but would think hard about doing even that, considering the warranty aspect. I would also experiment with the effect of removing just the metal grill in front of the tweeter but leaving the trim rings. As to the addition of No Rez, I'd be concerned about upsetting what is, in all likelihood, a carefully tuned box/driver system and spoiling the lower mids and upper bass.
Harbeth also makes the design choice of flexible lightweight but lossy box sides over heavy, rigid ones for the same reason as has Andrew mentions: shifting the inevitable resonance to a less bothersome, lower frequency (with lower 'Q', often) and Harbeth is renowned for accurate tonality and low distortion levels through the mid range, if nothing else.
Very well said Russell. :thumb:
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Hi Danny. Some thoughts on your responses that will hopefully give further clarification to my design process, and entertainment for the readers :-)
"You don't have to defend your choices. This is better quality parts than I typically see at this price point."
I hope I'm not coming across as needing to defend my choices. My intent is to allow people to understand what happens in the process of designing budget speakers, and just how careful you have to be in trading off one choice against another to meet the price objective.
"Keep in mind though that for a lot of these guys it's no big deal to throw a few extra dollars at something like this to see (or hear) what the results are. It's part of the fun of the hobby."
I agree. The balance is between DIY and just spending more money on a better speaker in the first place. For some people the most fun is gained from opening up a speaker and experimenting.
"I can understand the positive effect of using the softer MDF. I attack it a different way though. The No Rez product that I talked about uses a heavy damping layer that sticks to the cabinet wall with a pressure sensitive adhesive. It really knocks out the resonances of the cabinet walls."
Again, my comments are from the point of view of enlightening the readers. I am trying to get the best performance at lowest cost. Adding a product like No Rez to solve cabinet resonances is just not financially viable in production at these price points.
"You are correct. Standing waves is not technically what it is. Those waves are too long to propagate in the box. It is more of a pressure wave. There is a resonance there though that additional damping took away."
All waves propagate in an air space. There is no such thing as not propagating when the acoustic space is too small. Acoustic waves a re pressure changes that move away at the speed of sound. Resonances occur due to standing waves when the dimensions become integrally related to the wavelength. As such there will be a frequency below which no standing waves can occur, and no acoustic resonances will result. For the B6 the lowest standing wave will occur at around 540Hz, Below this there are non. Anything seen in the impedance curve below this frequency will not be due to standing waves. The most likely cause will be due to some mechanically excited resonance. This can be due to the panel modes in the cabinet, but again, 25Hz and 60Hz are much lower than the expected vibration modes of the cabinet. The main cabinet vibration mode that shows up in my impedance measurement is at 190Hz. I suspect what you saw is some mechanical coupling from however the speaker is mounted for testing, but we will not know until you are able to reproduce it.
"I'm not knocking the trim rings. They do look good. But there is a subtle change in the response from them."
Agreed....Subtle.... :-)
"You are correct. The break in the trace is hidden under the zip tie. And I retracted that observation from the original post"
Thanks. You had me worried for a moment that I had let that slip through to production!
I trust that everyone will enjoy this expose of the design process involved.
Andrew
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Welcome, Andrew! It's great to see your talented self here. I really enjoyed your AVS Forum interview re your Pioneer speakers.
Danny, you're response to random out-of-the-blue jabs on here has certainly matured over the years - kudos! (that's not in reference to you, Andrew :))
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I'm sure you know as it's science that has been used for many years. I've used a form of it in tape for literally 15 years.
Oh I know. My point is that you accept that it works, but you can't explain how it works. And in audio often times you don't need to know exactly why something works if the results are known and repeatable.
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Hi Danny. Some thoughts on your responses that will hopefully give further clarification to my design process, and entertainment for the readers :)
"You don't have to defend your choices. This is better quality parts than I typically see at this price point."
I hope I'm not coming across as needing to defend my choices. My intent is to allow people to understand what happens in the process of designing budget speakers, and just how careful you have to be in trading off one choice against another to meet the price objective.
"Keep in mind though that for a lot of these guys it's no big deal to throw a few extra dollars at something like this to see (or hear) what the results are. It's part of the fun of the hobby."
I agree. The balance is between DIY and just spending more money on a better speaker in the first place. For some people the most fun is gained from opening up a speaker and experimenting.
"I can understand the positive effect of using the softer MDF. I attack it a different way though. The No Rez product that I talked about uses a heavy damping layer that sticks to the cabinet wall with a pressure sensitive adhesive. It really knocks out the resonances of the cabinet walls."
Again, my comments are from the point of view of enlightening the readers. I am trying to get the best performance at lowest cost. Adding a product like No Rez to solve cabinet resonances is just not financially viable in production at these price points.
"You are correct. Standing waves is not technically what it is. Those waves are too long to propagate in the box. It is more of a pressure wave. There is a resonance there though that additional damping took away."
All waves propagate in an air space. There is no such thing as not propagating when the acoustic space is too small. Acoustic waves a re pressure changes that move away at the speed of sound. Resonances occur due to standing waves when the dimensions become integrally related to the wavelength. As such there will be a frequency below which no standing waves can occur, and no acoustic resonances will result. For the B6 the lowest standing wave will occur at around 540Hz, Below this there are non. Anything seen in the impedance curve below this frequency will not be due to standing waves. The most likely cause will be due to some mechanically excited resonance. This can be due to the panel modes in the cabinet, but again, 25Hz and 60Hz are much lower than the expected vibration modes of the cabinet. The main cabinet vibration mode that shows up in my impedance measurement is at 190Hz. I suspect what you saw is some mechanical coupling from however the speaker is mounted for testing, but we will not know until you are able to reproduce it.
"I'm not knocking the trim rings. They do look good. But there is a subtle change in the response from them."
Agreed....Subtle.... :)
"You are correct. The break in the trace is hidden under the zip tie. And I retracted that observation from the original post"
Thanks. You had me worried for a moment that I had let that slip through to production!
I trust that everyone will enjoy this expose of the design process involved.
Andrew
I can't wait to see what you do with the ELAC Flagship speakers! Those very well could be my next pair of speakers!
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I trust that everyone will enjoy this expose of the design process involved.
Most definitely!!! Andrew and Danny - what an interesting read and thank you for sharing the thought process for designing and/or tweaking it. It's great to be able to listen in to a constructive and positive conversation.
Andrew - please come back and share the design processes for future speaker designs as well!
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Oh I know. My point is that you accept that it works, but you can't explain how it works. And in audio often times you don't need to know exactly why something works if the results are known and repeatable.
It helps if they know what field of science their claims fall under.
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Nope. It's ALL science.
Right, just like how musical instrument design and construction is 100% science based. :duh:
Because science can inform how a speaker (an instrument) performs the way it does, doesn't negate the fact that art didn't have anything to do with making it so.
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Typical GR thread.
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All waves propagate in an air space. There is no such thing as not propagating when the acoustic space is too small. Acoustic waves a re pressure changes that move away at the speed of sound. Resonances occur due to standing waves when the dimensions become integrally related to the wavelength. As such there will be a frequency below which no standing waves can occur, and no acoustic resonances will result. For the B6 the lowest standing wave will occur at around 540Hz, Below this there are non. Anything seen in the impedance curve below this frequency will not be due to standing waves. The most likely cause will be due to some mechanically excited resonance. This can be due to the panel modes in the cabinet, but again, 25Hz and 60Hz are much lower than the expected vibration modes of the cabinet. The main cabinet vibration mode that shows up in my impedance measurement is at 190Hz. I suspect what you saw is some mechanical coupling from however the speaker is mounted for testing, but we will not know until you are able to reproduce it.
Yeah, yeah, I am with you on that stuff. I think the terminology we used used caused some confusion. Like when you said, "For the B6 the lowest standing wave will occur at around 540Hz" But then you said, "There is no such thing as not propagating when the acoustic space is too small." When I said the space is too small to propagate a waveform I was talking about wavelengths below that 540Hz point. Yes, pressure changes occur below that, but that wavelength will not create a full wave. I think we are on the same page with that.
Now, aside from that, there are pressure changes in the box that have to do with the flow of air in the box and this does not move at the speed of sound. Air doesn't compress and move that fast by a long shot. And that may have more to do with the resonances being excited down low.
I just measured the other speaker that I have that is still in stock form and the two resonances are there in it as well. I changed what it was sitting on and got no change. It is internally created. Next I will add just a little fiberglass insulation (not much) and measure the effect again. I'll post the results shortly.
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Typical GR thread.
Yeah really. What's wrong with these people? If you can't measure a difference then there's no difference right? All these subjective camp listeners must just drive you crazy.
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Hey Andrew,
I took an impedance measurement of the stock speaker. Here it is.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/imp%20rez.jpg)
I then added a small square of insulation behind the woofer that is not packed in and fills just the back half of the box. And I moved the small piece of poly fill that was on the crossover to the floor of the cabinet. I did not add anything to the top of the box. It is still a bare wall.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/B6%20ins.jpg)
And here is the result on the impedance curve:
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/imp%20no%20rez.jpg)
The two resonances are now gone.
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"Yeah, yeah, I am with you on that stuff. I think the terminology we used used caused some confusion. Like when you said, "For the B6 the lowest standing wave will occur at around 540Hz" But then you said, "There is no such thing as not propagating when the acoustic space is too small." When I said the space is too small to propagate a waveform I was talking about wavelengths below that 540Hz point. Yes, pressure changes occur below that, but that wavelength will not create a full wave. I think we are on the same page with that. "
I think we are still on different pages. Your terminology is technically confusing. Sound is a compression wave that propagates at the speed of sound. A standing wave occurs when the wave is reflected back and interferes with the original wave. When the delay is integrally related to the wavelength, a standing wave results. Below a certain frequency this standing wave cannot occur, but there is still a wavefront being propagated, there is still a reflected wave, and there is still energy being delivered by the progressive wave. I don't quite know what you mean by not creating a full wave. I think you are maybe trying to convey a concept that is fully discussed in all acoustic textbooks, but using different language to describe it, but in the process causing extra confusion.
"Now, aside from that, there are pressure changes in the box that have to do with the flow of air in the box and this does not move at the speed of sound. Air doesn't compress and move that fast by a long shot. And that may have more to do with the resonances being excited down low."
Air compresses fast enough for sound to travel at the speed of sound, 433m/s. It also compresses fast enough to allow frequencies of at least 1MHz to propagate, though with large transmission loss. Now I know that there is no bulk flow of the transmission medium, the air, but that isn't required in order to propagate the sound wave.
Now if you are thinking more about the velocity of air flow in a vent in a reflex tuned system for example, then this is entirely different.
"I just measured the other speaker that I have that is still in stock form and the two resonances are there in it as well. I changed what it was sitting on and got no change. It is internally created. Next I will add just a little fiberglass insulation (not much) and measure the effect again. I'll post the results shortly."
As of now, until we do more more investigation, the only thing that occurs to me other than mechanical resonances is a small leak acting as a Helmoltz resonator. This has the potential to mess with the impedance curve. Let me know what you find with the other speaker.
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Andrew,
Highlight the text that you want to quote by right clicking the mouse and dragging through it. Then hit the quote button. The quote tags will appear before and after the text. Then respond after that.
You can edit your past posts that way too if you want.
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Let me know what you find with the other speaker.
Both speakers have the two resonance peaks in the bottom end and in the same places.
And in both cases additional insulation killed the two peaks.
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Hi Danny. Thanks for the quote tip
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The measurements taken and shown are what to me appears spot on. The resonance is gone. Really all WTF do you want different measurements.
Danny does not guess or "figure" he measures and the results are obvious for all to see. STOP bashing and maybe learn a thing or two. Geez.
charles
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Charles. Please don't blow a gasket
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Hi Charles. Oops, I lost the rest of my commentary when I posted. I wasn't intending to sound rude with a short post!! Forgive me.
What I was intending to continue to say was that I believe Dany and I are having an open discussion about the difference in results between his experiments and my own.
This is the process of scientific experimentation. Do an experiment, publish the results, allow others to verify or not with their repeat of the measurements, then discuss the results.
That is where we are now. I have measured several paid from our production run. I don't see the same effect. So, it's either because of measurement process, or because I'd some difference in the speakers that I do not yet understand. On top of that, is the assumption that it is acoustic resonances the true cause. I'm fascinated to find out what is happening. That how how I work and advance.
Regards
Andrew
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Charles. Please don't blow a gasket
Rollo, the conversation has been pretty great. There are a few detractors with nothing to offer, but the meat of the thread and dialog between Danny and Andrew has been very interesting and informative. Asking questions is all part of good critical discussion.
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Hey Charles, It's okay. We're all good.
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This is an absolutely fantastic thread! THANK YOU both - Andrew & Danny - for your open dialogue. The open, transparent, non-defensive dialogue is just wonderful. Thanks.
UL
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This is an absolutely fantastic thread! THANK YOU both - Andrew & Danny - for your open dialogue. The open, transparent, non-defensive dialogue is just wonderful. Thanks.
UL
+1. Truly a honor to hear & learn from 2 giants in the industry IMO.
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This is an absolutely fantastic thread! THANK YOU both - Andrew & Danny - for your open dialogue. The open, transparent, non-defensive dialogue is just wonderful. Thanks.
UL
+ Another!
What a fantastic thing to see a bit of the collaboration between the inventor and the modifier of these speakers! Hopefully it can continue and give those of us interested in such things the opportunity to see 2 greats giving insight and input on speakers.
We all know that there are going to be trade offs at this level of dollar per speaker. This conversation reveals some of the thought process that went into the decisions.
I heard an early version of the Elac's back at the Newport show and managed to chat for a minute with Mr. Jones (I have previously had the pleasure of getting to talk to him while he Demo'ed the TAD's at both RMAF and Newport). I was very impressed with the performance of these Elac's and was looking forward to when they became available. I wanted to hear what happened in the "Real World" when they were hooked up to inexpensive Electronics in an every day listening environment. The results have been pretty much what I expected.
Glad to see Danny is offering some upgrade paths for them.
Looking forward to more in this thread!
Thank you Danny and Andrew!
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Nice thread.
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Oh I know. My point is that you accept that it works, but you can't explain how it works. And in audio often times you don't need to know exactly why something works if the results are known and repeatable.
Actually Danny it's very well known how/why it works.
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Thanks for the great thread Danny and Andrew. Awsome to see two designers of this calibur having a constructive conversation publically.
As others have said, welcome to AC Andrew :beer:
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Danny and Andrew, this is one of the best threads to come along in awhile. Thank you, both!
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Hey Charles, It's okay. We're all good.
Cool. It is a pleasure and honor actually to read the Guru's comments so far. It was the snide comment about the GR thread that got me. Danny and Andrew and Russ oh my ! Keep it going.
charles
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Speaking for myself, this thread is probably the most informative for speaker dynamics and construction I have ever read. Just wonderful and greatly appreciated for a novice like me. I have become a Danny Ritchie and Andrew J fan in just a few days. :D
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Actually Danny it's very well known how/why it works.
Why, jtwrace?
Momma always said, "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all.
Neil
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As several others have said, thanks to Danny and Andrew for this open discourse :thumb:
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"As several others have said, thanks to Danny and Andrew for this open discourse"
+1
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Its great whenever the designer of a product can contribute his/her thoughts here on the AC forum.
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Very interesting discussion no doubt, but I am wondering Danny what kind of speaker you could
create for $490 (Cost of B6 and upgrades)?
Could you make something that would surpass the upgraded speaker
for that amount, if you had control of all the design decisions?
Maybe too much work and time to know the answer,
but for the same price point I would be curious to see how you
tackle the exercise.
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Very interesting discussion no doubt, but I am wondering Danny what kind of speaker you could
create for $490 (Cost of B6 and upgrades)?
Could you make something that would surpass the upgraded speaker
for that amount, if you had control of all the design decisions?
Maybe too much work and time to know the answer,
but for the same price point I would be curious to see how you
tackle the exercise.
I have designed completed speakers in this price range for other companies. Remember the X-LS Classic from AV123? These were reviewed by Audioholics, Affordable Audio, Home Theater and High Fidelity, GoodSound, Tone Audio, Consumer Guide, Prillaman.net, and several others. They received two Product of the Year awards, a Best Buy award, a Budget Speaker of the Year, and seems like there might have been one or two more that I can't remember. An upgrade for that model offered by the Skiing Ninja was also reviewed by Tone Audio. They were originally released for $199 a pair then then at $219 a pair. I now have them as kits for $109. 8) http://gr-research.com/x-serieskits.aspx
I did these two for Carnegie Accoustics: At $399 a pair these sold out really fast too: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114282.0 And I still have stock on these: http://gr-research.com/davanti.aspx
I have no plans to do any more completed speakers though. It's too much to stock and warehouse for me. And right now I just don't have the space for it. I already have six containers full of product that I pull orders from every day. That's enough for now. And completed speakers take up a lot more room.
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The X-LS Classics & X-LS Encores were incredible bargains especially given the finer cabinetry & grilles. Superb speakers. I always thought av123 sold those as "loss leaders" to get people interested in more expensive upgrades.
The Pioneer BS-22 speakers & others designed by Andrew Jones were excellent speakers that were dirt cheap. Incredible bargains.
Haven't heard the ELAC line yet, but reviews indicate that Mr. Jones hit yet another home run for us budget audiophiles. Looking forward to hearing them. :thumb:
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I have designed completed speakers in this price range for other companies...
Are any of these companies still in business? Just curious, for the record.
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Are any of these companies still in business? Just curious, for the record.
Geez...
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Geez...
That's why I do maintain an Ignore List, but unfortunately ignored comments still show up when quoted. :?
I'm not terribly surprised, but there does seem to be a bit of unnecessary stick poking from several members in this topic.
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Are any of these companies still in business? Just curious, for the record.
Well Mike, for the record. Nothing about that is relevant to this discussion. And I think you know the particulars for why one of the companies mentioned is no longer in business, and those particulars are relevant either.
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Are any of these companies still in business? Just curious, for the record.
lowtech... more like lowlife
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Most people have absolutely zero clue as to how hard it is to successfully bring a product of virtually any kind to market, let alone maintain long term success.
Unfortunately, people who are ignorant also tend to lack respect.
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I have no plans to do any more completed speakers though. It's too much to stock and warehouse for me. And right now I just don't have the space for it. I already have six containers full of product that I pull orders from every day. That's enough for now. And completed speakers take up a lot more room.
Yeah guess I should of said something along the line of "kit with flat pack".
That might be significant now that Christie has killed the BG drivers and it
seems the N1 (at this price point) is not a viable speaker at the moment.
Does this make any sense, or is the modified B6 maybe a N1 replacement.
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Yeah guess I should of said something along the line of "kit with flat pack".
That might be significant now that Christie has killed the BG drivers and it
seems the N1 (at this price point) is not a viable speaker at the moment.
Does this make any sense, or is the modified B6 maybe a N1 replacement.
I still have a lot of high end kits available. Visit our website.
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Yeah guess I should of said something along the line of "kit with flat pack".
That might be significant now that Christie has killed the BG drivers and it
seems the N1 (at this price point) is not a viable speaker at the moment.
Does this make any sense, or is the modified B6 maybe a N1 replacement.
I know Danny doesn't want to come out and say it because it's probably rude to directly compare one's own products against a competitor, but I'd imagine it's okay if someone like myself does. Having heard the x-ls encore, owning the x-statik/x-voce, and an Elac B5 I've been playing with for the last week, I'd probably guess that the modified B6 is closer to a stock x-ls encore, or possibly even the x-ls. Any of the N-series are significantly higher end.
I can say in stock form, the Elac B5 is a bit disappointing as the treble rolloff is pretty noticeable. I know Tyson from this site also mentioned the treble rolloff in his RMAF review of that room. I do know design-wise they probably aimed for that to keep untreated rooms from becoming too treble fatiguing, so in the end it's what you're looking for.
I know from the impressive re-design work done by Danny in this thread, I've definitely been following the right speaker designer for the past 6 years.
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I know Danny doesn't want to come out and say it because it's probably rude to directly compare one's own products against a competitor, but I'd imagine it's okay if someone like myself does. Having heard the x-ls encore, owning the x-statik/x-voce, and an Elac B5 I've been playing with for the last week, I'd probably guess that the modified B6 is closer to a stock x-ls encore, or possibly even the x-ls. Any of the N-series are significantly higher end.
I can say in stock form, the Elac B5 is a bit disappointing as the treble rolloff is pretty noticeable. I know Tyson from this site also mentioned the treble rolloff in his RMAF review of that room. I do know design-wise they probably aimed for that to keep untreated rooms from becoming too treble fatiguing, so in the end it's what you're looking for.
I know from the impressive re-design work done by Danny in this thread, I've definitely been following the right speaker designer for the past 6 years.
While I'm sure Danny appreciates the praise and it is well deserved, I don't think you can compare a DIY speaker (which is what they ended up having to be) to a mass produced one designed for a much larger market and for a profit margin written in stone. Nor should you imply somehow that one designer is better than the other which you seem to be doing. I own a pair of Danny's Super V's and they are fantastic to my ears so this isn't my point. Andrew obviously has gotten to where he is today because he is at the top of the game in his field. These speakers we are talking about are at the bottom of the market in price and an incredible value for the money spent. Andrew is also a first class human being from what I have heard and read from him and it is a real treat to have him participate in another speaker designers forum in such a humble and dignified manner. I for one have the utmost respect for Andrew as you don't get to where he is without being good at all aspects of the industry not just a good speaker designer. Thank you Andrew for participating in this forum, it has been extremely informative so far and you have explained your reasons for what you have done very well. I look forward to more informative dialogue and hearing your current and future creations in the near future, keep up the good work.
Greg
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Thank you Andrew for participating in this forum, it has been extremely informative so far and you have explained your reasons for what you have done very well. I look forward to more informative dialogue and hearing your current and future creations in the near future, keep up the good work.
Greg
+1
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+1
+2
Mike
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I agree totally with you Greg.
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Thanks for commenting AndrewJ, and I also appreciate answering questions about my new Pioneer S-1EX at RMAF. They are amazing. :thumb:
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After reading Andrew's comment on the mods it is clear why he is successful. The Debut line was designed to match the electronics of the targeted buyer.
I purchased a pair of B6 to support Elac. And will watch for the next line. They will be marketed and designed for a higher price point.
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While I'm sure Danny appreciates the praise and it is well deserved, I don't think you can compare a DIY speaker (which is what they ended up having to be) to a mass produced one designed for a much larger market and for a profit margin written in stone. Nor should you imply somehow that one designer is better than the other which you seem to be doing. I own a pair of Danny's Super V's and they are fantastic to my ears so this isn't my point. Andrew obviously has gotten to where he is today because he is at the top of the game in his field. These speakers we are talking about are at the bottom of the market in price and an incredible value for the money spent. Andrew is also a first class human being from what I have heard and read from him and it is a real treat to have him participate in another speaker designers forum in such a humble and dignified manner. I for one have the utmost respect for Andrew as you don't get to where he is without being good at all aspects of the industry not just a good speaker designer. Thank you Andrew for participating in this forum, it has been extremely informative so far and you have explained your reasons for what you have done very well. I look forward to more informative dialogue and hearing your current and future creations in the near future, keep up the good work.
Greg
The x-ls wasn't a DIY speaker until AV123 folded. I was referring to the AV123 x-ls completed speaker which sold for $219 a pair MSRP back when AV123 was around. They AV123 x-ls encore completed speaker pair sold for $329 a pair MSRP.
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Here is some illustrations for you guys to show how easy the Level 1 Mod really is.
You have to un-solder the tweeter cap and pull it off the board. It's the small yellow one that is a 1.5uF value. One side is easy to get to. Un-solder it first. Then use a box cutting knife or an exact-o knife to cut through a little of the adhesive holding it down. Put it up and stand it up on its end and then you can get the other side un-soldered pretty easily.
Next, un-solder the the leads on the 22 ohm resistor and just fold them to the side so that they are out of the way. Don't bother pulling it off the board. It is glued on too well and it doesn't hurt anything to just leave it there.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/cross1.jpg)
Now take a very small drill bit and drill out the solder holes so that you have a fresh hole to slide the new parts in through.
Now twist the new .47uF Sonicap onto the new Mills 20 ohm resister as seen here. Solder them together and solder them into the spot where the old resistor was mounted.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/cross2.jpg)
Then flip it over and solder in the new 1.5uF Sonicap into the same spot as the old 1.5uF cap. Be careful not to let your soldering gun touch the small inductor next to it.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/cross3.jpg)
It should now look like this:
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/cross4.jpg)
Lastly, run a little line of hot glue across the parts to help hold them all down.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/cross5.jpg)
This will lift the tweeter level just a little bit, it will lift up the rolled off top end, and improve clarity all across the tweeters range.
It is a pretty simple upgrade for the average hobbyist. If you are not a hobbyist and aren't interested in un-soldering and soldering on new parts then send me your crossover and I'll put the new parts on for you and send them back ready to go. $10 plus the shipping cost is the least I can charge for dong this. It really doesn't cover my time very well, but I am making a little on the parts cost.
The rest of this mod is installing the No Rez in the cabinets. This will do away with the cabinet resonances, tighten up the bass response, and clean up the vocal region.
Again the level 1 mod is only $76.
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Hi Danny,
A suggestion- you should make this above post come below your first post. Great offering for 'modders' :thumb:
regards,
Kishore
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Hi Danny,
A suggestion- you should make this above post come below your first post. Great offering for 'modders' :thumb:
regards,
Kishore
That's a pretty good idea. I think I'll copy it into the top post.
Thanks,
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I just finished up the level 2 mod and figured I'd post some pics of it.
Here is the all new crossover.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/newcrossover1.jpg)
For those of you that ordered this upgrade please see the way the parts are laid out.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/newcrossover2.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/newcrossover3.jpg)
The tube connectors installed easily. I also added a jumper from the tube connectors down to the old binding posts so that either or can be used. What I like about this is that it allows you to A/B the difference between the connectors so that you can hear how much difference the tube connectors make.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/connectors.jpg)
And here is how it looks with them installed.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/connectors2.jpg)
And here is a shot of the crossovers installed and the cabinets lined with No Rez.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/assembly.jpg)
I also laid in just a little bit of fiberglass insulation on the back wall and over the crossover.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/stuffing.jpg)
They are now together and burning in. I'll give listening impressions in a few days.
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I was thinking that some black (or whatever matches the baffle color) construction
paper cut out in a figure '8' to match the driver cutouts on the inside and the old
plastic beauty ring cutouts on the outside might help with the aesthetics? If air
leaks because of this would be of concern, then perhaps some rubber cement
between the paper and the baffle could be used to form a good seal ...and easily
removable. Just thinking outloud :)
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I was thinking that some black (or whatever matches the baffle color) construction
paper cut out in a figure '8' to match the driver cutouts on the inside and the old
plastic beauty ring cutouts on the outside might help with the aesthetics? If air
leaks because of this would be of concern, then perhaps some rubber cement
between the paper and the baffle could be used to form a good seal ...and easily
removable. Just thinking outloud :)
I could see a cutout of a contrasting color of leather looking really good. Felt would work.. sonically probably better and definitely cheaper.
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Hello Danny, I have a question, to be able to execute this upgrade I have to measure the drivers by myself?
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The level 2 mod looks very professional. The tube connectors finish it off.
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Hello Danny, I have a question, to be able to execute this upgrade I have to measure the drivers by myself?
Nope, you need not measure anything. I've done all of that for you.
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I burned these in for several days then did some listening test on them yesterday.
I was very impressed with how these speakers responded to the upgrades. These are now very good sounding speakers.
I made some A/B comparisons to some old A/V-1's that I had still in stock. They are now a real similar speaker. Woofer wise I wouldn't trade the Elac woofer for the M-130 used in the A/V-1, but the difference between the two was pretty minor. The Elac woofer sounded really good. Too good really for no more than these things cost. And now lined with No Rez the bass response is nice and clean with no more residual buzz.
In the top end I began to think, the more I listened, that the Elac actually sounded a little cleaner in the highs. This perplexed me a little as the tweeters are similarly made with no real advantage to the Elac tweeter. Both were using Sonicaps too. But the old A/V-1's were built long before tube connectors came along. I know the tube connectors are an advantage, but could they be doing that much I wondered? So I moved the speaker cables from the tube connectors to the binding posts on the back of the Elac's and the advantage that the Elac's had in the upper ranges and better clarity went away. They then sounded pretty equal to the A/V-1's. And that is still quite a compliment to the Elac's. After that I really wanted to go through all of my older demo speakers and upgrade them with tube connectors. Those tube connectors rule!
No more rolled off top end now either. It sounds very extended and balanced. And not even a hint of brightness or aggressiveness in the top end. They still sound really smooth. Imaging is really good as well.
The mods really transformed them. I'd feel real good about putting these up against any mini-monitor and I think they will really beat up on most of the mini-monitors in the $2,000 and under range.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/elacinthehouse.jpg)
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I just finished up the level 2 mod and figured I'd post some pics of it.
Here is the all new crossover.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/newcrossover1.jpg)
For those of you that ordered this upgrade please see the way the parts are laid out.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/newcrossover2.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/newcrossover3.jpg)
The tube connectors installed easily. I also added a jumper from the tube connectors down to the old binding posts so that either or can be used. What I like about this is that it allows you to A/B the difference between the connectors so that you can hear how much difference the tube connectors make.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/connectors.jpg)
And here is how it looks with them installed.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/connectors2.jpg)
And here is a shot of the crossovers installed and the cabinets lined with No Rez.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/assembly.jpg)
I also laid in just a little bit of fiberglass insulation on the back wall and over the crossover.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/stuffing.jpg)
They are now together and burning in. I'll give listening impressions in a few days.
Danny. Really neat you posted pictures. Very helpful.
Did the board you mount the cross over to included in the kit? If not. What size board do you use to fit into the speaker.
Super excited on this project.
Pictures very helpful.
Kind regards.
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Danny. Really neat you posted pictures. Very helpful.
Did the board you mount the cross over to included in the kit? If not. What size board do you use to fit into the speaker.
Super excited on this project.
Pictures very helpful.
When I made those two boards I cut two extras so I would have a pattern for future reference.
The boards are 6.5" by 5.25".
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This is an extremely interesting article, so thank you both Andrew and Danny for your contributions to this!
I was thinking about upgrading these due to the performance to price ratio. Remember the BIC Venturi and Ed Frias? I know you do Dannny!
I have a few questions regarding the upgrade. Can anything be done to correct the sheer ugliness from removing the rings? Could a new baffle with the correct cut outs be made. What about making a completely new cabinet. I remember reading that Andrew mentioned, to keep the price point down he opted to not design a curved cabinet. Would a curved cabinet be a noticeable improvement or are the current changes enough? I may build these for my brother in law? I don't honestly think he would like the way the cabinet looks with removed beauty rings!
By the way Andrew is a true Gentleman and answered my concerns about playing his speakers with a low watt tube amp. I listen very near field so the efficiency isn't a concern, but I was concerned with impedance. Andrew assured me impedance would be good!
Thanks
Jim
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This is an extremely interesting article, so thank you both Andrew and Danny for your contributions to this!
I was thinking about upgrading these due to the performance to price ratio. Remember the BIC Venturi and Ed Frias? I know you do Dannny!
I have a few questions regarding the upgrade. Can anything be done to correct the sheer ugliness from removing the rings? Could a new baffle with the correct cut outs be made. What about making a completely new cabinet. I remember reading that Andrew mentioned, to keep the price point down he opted to not design a curved cabinet. Would a curved cabinet be a noticeable improvement or are the current changes enough? I may build these for my brother in law? I don't honestly think he would like the way the cabinet looks with removed beauty rings!
By the way Andrew is a true Gentleman and answered my concerns about playing his speakers with a low watt tube amp. I listen very near field so the efficiency isn't a concern, but I was concerned with impedance. Andrew assured me impedance would be good!
Thanks
Jim
A different way to go would be to replace the grill fabric with something more acoustically transparent, and use the speakers with them installed, thereby concealing the baffle. Or do the grill frames themselves cause diffraction?
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If it were me then I would remove the beauty ring then put the grill back on for casual listening and daily use. Then remove the grills and pull them further out into the room for critical listening.
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Right, I hear you! For critical listening, it's the sound that trumps everything else, including aesthetics. So a curved cabinet design wouldn't be noticably improved, even with current BSC? I know it hikes up the cost of and otherwise great sounding and affordable unit. All things being equal, he might prefer a pretty cabinet! He could always build the cabinet himself!
Thanks Guy's!
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Right, I hear you! For critical listening, it's the sound that trumps everything else, including aesthetics. So a curved cabinet design wouldn't be noticably improved, even with current BSC? I know it hikes up the cost of and otherwise great sounding and affordable unit. All things being equal, he might prefer a pretty cabinet! He could always build the cabinet himself!
Thanks Guy's!
If you are going to build your own cabinets then there are better options.
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If you're replacing the crossover AND the cabinet it would seem that it might make sense to possibly look at a different speaker.
Kind of reminds me of
"This is George Washington's original axe. The handle and head have both been replaced but it essentially occupies the same space". ;)
Steve
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I have a pair of the B6's. To help make the exposed trim ring area look a bit nicer I'm going to try painting it with either a semi-gloss or flat black paint. Possibly 2 coats to make it thicker and even things out some. I'll have to see how well the first coat works out.
Removing the tweeter grill and the trim rings sure seemed to help out the high end. Hear more sparkle and detail now.
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I have a pair of the B6's. To help make the exposed trim ring area look a bit nicer I'm going to try painting it with either a semi-gloss or flat black paint. Possibly 2 coats to make it thicker and even things out some. I'll have to see how well the first coat works out.
Removing the tweeter grill and the trim rings sure seemed to help out the high end. Hear more sparkle and detail now.
You haven't heard anything yet. At least try the level 1 upgrade. You'll hear a lot more detail and sparkle.
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Danny, on the issue with the look with the trim rings removed, is duratex thick enough when you apply it to fill in the holes left behind in one pass? If someone used the trim ring and the posts for the grills with a piece of cardboard as a template, it looks like it would only take a little bit to cover the exposed area without messing up the rest of the outer material?
The other thought that came to mind is if anyone knows somebody who does signs, that looks like a pretty easy shape to get done in peel and stick vinyl, and if you had it made with a thick enough vinyl stock it should sit flush with the rest of the veneer/wrap. Pretty cheap and would be a quick and easy install.
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Danny, on the issue with the look with the trim rings removed, is duratex thick enough when you apply it to fill in the holes left behind in one pass? If someone used the trim ring and the posts for the grills with a piece of cardboard as a template, it looks like it would only take a little bit to cover the exposed area without messing up the rest of the outer material?
Sounds a bit tricky, but the bare wood areas could be painted in.
The other thought that came to mind is if anyone knows somebody who does signs, that looks like a pretty easy shape to get done in peel and stick vinyl, and if you had it made with a thick enough vinyl stock it should sit flush with the rest of the veneer/wrap. Pretty cheap and would be a quick and easy install.
Not a bad idea.
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JMC207, thank you for the tip! That is rather encouraging and great idea to boot! I have also wondered about Jim's Diffraction B Gone or any type Wool, taking the same dimensional shape of the Beauty Rings?
Danny, I figured it wouldn't make much sense to go overboard for the sake of affordability, I was just curious. I have actually told my Brother in Law to get your N3 kit or the Standmount MTM version, which I think you designed for center channel duties. He has actually heard my N3s and loved them, but has to stay in the B6 price range. He could splurge a little more for the upgrades. Not sure if the Neo3 is still available? Hopefully someone else can make a similar design. It was an amazing design, even at CNO! I haven't heard most of the Raals though, not that I could afford them!
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JMC207, thank you for the tip! That is rather encouraging and great idea to boot! I have also wondered about Jim's Diffraction B Gone or any type Wool, taking the same dimensional shape of the Beauty Rings?
Danny, I figured it wouldn't make much sense to go overboard for the sake of affordability, I was just curious. I have actually told my Brother in Law to get your N3 kit or the Standmount MTM version, which I think you designed for center channel duties. He has actually heard my N3s and loved them, but has to stay in the B6 price range. He could splurge a little more for the upgrades. Not sure if the Neo3 is still available? Hopefully someone else can make a similar design. It was an amazing design, even at CNO! I haven't heard most of the Raals though, not that I could afford them!
A good alternative to the N3 or the N3S would be the X-MTM Encore or X-CS Encore respectively. If you upgrade the Encore's crossovers, especially if you point to point wire the boards like the N3/N3S, the Encores are exceptional.
The people I have built the X-MTM and X-CS Encores for have been very pleased with them. I'm sure your brother-in-law would be also.
Mike
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A good alternative to the N3 or the N3S would be the X-MTM Encore or X-CS Encore respectively. If you upgrade the Encore's crossovers, especially if you point to point wire the boards like the N3/N3S, the Encores are exceptional.
The people I have built the X-MTM and X-CS Encores for have been very pleased with them. I'm sure your brother-in-law would be also.
Mike
Agreed! I sometimes miss my pair of X-CS Encores. They're big, need stands, but sound crazy good with upgraded crossovers. Surprising amount of bass from a sealed cabinet.
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Mike,
I will definitely tell him about the Encore builds! I was looking at Encore before I considered the N3, but the Neo3 tweeter easily persuaded me. I was already familier with Neo3 having them in another design. However Danny's design is considerably better in sound quality! I'm curious how the JET tweeter from ELAC compares?
Thanks
Jim
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Mike,
I will definitely tell him about the Encore builds! I was looking at Encore before I considered the N3, but the Neo3 tweeter easily persuaded me. I was already familier with Neo3 having them in another design. However Danny's design is considerably better in sound quality! I'm curious how the JET tweeter from ELAC compares?
Thanks
Jim
Jim,
I've never heard the ELAC's so I cannot comment on their tweeters. I definately agree about Danny's use of the Neo3 PDR tweeters, that's probably why I have three pairs of his speakers with them, N1-X, N3 and Wedgies.
That does not mean the Peerless tweeter is a slouch or inferior. The sound is different but I would not say inferior. when I built the X-LS Encores I built the crossovers exactly as an upgraded N1-X i.e. Sonicaps, Mills resistors, Erse XQ inductors and point-to-point wired. I did this on purpose so that crossover component quality and build method would not be a factor when comparing the N1-X and the X-LS Encore.
I spent almost a year listening to both speakers and the bottom line was that I could never say I liked one better than the other. The N1-X's with the Neo3 had the edge in clarity and detail while the X-LS Encore with the Peerless was a little smoother and richer. It really came down to the mood I was in because my mood would dictate what type of music I wanted to listen to. With detail rich symphonies and orchestral music I preferred the the clarity and detail of the N1-X but with jazz, folk, pop/rock and chamber music I preferred the smooth richness of the Encores.
Mike
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I will definitely tell him about the Encore builds! I was looking at Encore before I considered the N3, but the Neo3 tweeter easily persuaded me. I was already familier with Neo3 having them in another design. However Danny's design is considerably better in sound quality! I'm curious how the JET tweeter from ELAC compares?
It's no planar magnetic tweeter. And I wouldn't take it over the T26SG used in the Encore kits, but it is very comparable to our GR-T3 dome tweeter. It really does sound very good.
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I have a almost-new pair of B6's on Audiogon for the price of a B5 if anyone is interested in trying this upgrade at a lower cost.
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I know this is an old thread but since I just got the B6s not too long ago and plan to do the Level 1 mod I had one nutty idea re the cabinet resonances I read about in the Stereophile review and acknowledged here by AJ - the most prominent being a high-Q 188Hz bad boy measured "everywhere" but strongest at the centers of the side walls. There were some lesser resonances found above 188Hz and all tolled, when listening to a particular music selection, the reviewer described the B6 cabinets as "vibrating like a sex toy". So what about this idea. Go to your local home improvement or flooring place and buy some single pieces of ceramic tile, have those cut so as to almost cover the sides and top areas - leaving a small, un-tiled border so without precise fitting, edges don't butt and no overhangs. I'm naively thinking that one need not cover ALL the side and top acreage but a good part of it to load those panels down on the outside. Depending on the tile pattern, the final "look" would be "different" for sure. For an adhesive you want near-100% coverage for intimate coupling between the roughed-up vinyl exterior and the tile. You also want something that's going to dry sometime this year w/o the benefit of air exposure and not attack the vinyl. I'm not in-love with anything I've seen on the shelf (i.e. caulk gun products) that can meet those requirements except a whole lot of expensive epoxy - ideal because it cures w/o an atmosphere.
So I'll leave it hanging there. Is this foolish DIY fun? Will it work or will these resonances somehow simply migrate to new frequencies?
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Great idea 49er. I think you'll find it to be very effective.
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. Go to your local home improvement or flooring place and buy some single pieces of ceramic tile, have those cut so as to almost cover the sides and top areas - leaving a small, un-tiled border so without precise fitting, edges don't butt and no overhangs.
Are you sure you mean ceramic tile?? I suspect you want vinyl. :scratch:
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I'm pretty sure he does mean ceramic. I believe the idea is to add as much mass to the cabinets with as little increase in external dimensions as possible.
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Hello
I have used ceramic tile on different speaker designs, it is a cheap upgrade. It with tile adhesive deadens the cabinet quite nice.
Gary/RevG1952
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Given the cost of these speakers and the cost of the mods, are there better options for the same money? Or is this one of those questions that ought not be asked? :scratch:
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If you plan on keeping them forever maybe it's worth it, but I'm guessing that gluing ceramic tile to the exterior would automatically reduce any possible resale value to $50 or less (if you can find the right buyer).
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I only used the ceramic tile and other mods on the inside of the cabinets, sight unseen. Sorry If I didn't make clear earlier.
Gary
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I only used the ceramic tile and other mods on the inside of the cabinets, sight unseen. Sorry If I didn't make clear earlier.
Which is what I would do, but I was actually referring to 49er who was thinking about gluing the the ceramic tile to the exterior.
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Not what I would do, but to each his own.
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Given the cost of these speakers and the cost of the mods, are there better options for the same money? Or is this one of those questions that ought not be asked? :scratch:
If you have them already then they are worth at least taking them up a level or two with the level 1 mod. It's an inexpensive, fun, and a clear improvement. It's only $76.
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Well it's very generous of you to do the work of figuring that all out and providing the insight for free. :thumb:
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Well it's very generous of you to do the work of figuring that all out and providing the insight for free. :thumb:
I figured it all out and provide the support for free, but the parts needed for the upgrade still cost something.
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Hi, Danny. I've come across this thread a week ago and have since removed the grills and the beauty rings. Each step provided improvements to my B6's sound. Despite being very good speakers, I feel there's still a need for improvement in the upper registers. I'd like to take this one step further and am interested in the level 1 mod kit. Is it still available for purchase?
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Hi, Danny. I've come across this thread a week ago and have since removed the grills and the beauty rings. Each step provided improvements to my B6's sound. Despite being very good speakers, I feel there's still a need for improvement in the upper registers. I'd like to take this one step further and am interested in the level 1 mod kit. Is it still available for purchase?
Sure, I can send you everything that you need. And it is a pretty easy upgrade.
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Danny - any chance you might have a go with a pair of KEF LS50s? I'm thinking of getting a pair for my office, since, (a) they look cool; and, (b) they have great reviews.
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Danny - any chance you might have a go with a pair of KEF LS50s? I'm thinking of getting a pair for my office, since, (a) they look cool; and, (b) they have great reviews.
You can always send me a pair and I'll have a look at them. I do a full set of measurements, evaluation, and recommendations all for free.
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Hello Danny, joined the forum because of the great discussion in this thread. I recently bought a pair of B5s.
Would you hazard a guess as to whether the cloth whole speaker grill or the ring trim has a larger impact on speaker sound? I would be more comfortable removing the metal grill and trim if the cloth grill were still there.
Also, I know you were asked some time ago, but what do you think equivalent crossover upgrades would be for the B5 rather than the B6? There's some images of the B5 crossover here: http://noaudiophile.com/ELAC_B5/
I'm definitely adding some insulation behind the woofer at the very least, thanks for your experimentation!
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Hello Danny, joined the forum because of the great discussion in this thread. I recently bought a pair of B5s.
Would you hazard a guess as to whether the cloth whole speaker grill or the ring trim has a larger impact on speaker sound? I would be more comfortable removing the metal grill and trim if the cloth grill were still there.
Also, I know you were asked some time ago, but what do you think equivalent crossover upgrades would be for the B5 rather than the B6? There's some images of the B5 crossover here: http://noaudiophile.com/ELAC_B5/
I'm definitely adding some insulation behind the woofer at the very least, thanks for your experimentation!
I am sure that the same types of upgrades that I offer the B6 will apply to the B5.
If you like you can send me the pair and I'll figure it out for you and the rest of the B5 owners.
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Hey there... so I made a bit of a blunder... I won a set of B6 on ebay but failed to notice that the tweeters were not included... I got them for a decent enough of a deal so I dont feel too bad but now I need tweeters! Are the ones that they come with available? Or are there a better pair that I should get??
Thanks
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Hey there... so I made a bit of a blunder... I won a set of B6 on ebay but failed to notice that the tweeters were not included... I got them for a decent enough of a deal so I dont feel too bad but now I need tweeters! Are the ones that they come with available? Or are there a better pair that I should get??
Thanks
I'd contact Elac to see if you can buy some exact replacements. Anything else will require a re-design of the crossover.
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Just wanted to say thanks to Danny and Andrew, I'm new to this but after reading this thread and a bunch of other reviews about the ELAC Debut series I decided to buy the whole lineup for my home theater and I'm really happy, all I can say is that I'm listening to music like I never had before. :D
I got a pair of the B6, a pair of the F6, a pair of the A4 a C5 and one of the S12EQ. I didn't have a clue that they could be upgraded and now I'm excited, since my receiver is multi-zone I will get one of Danny's kits for my living room and depending on how that goes I'll think about getting my hands on the B6s.
Thanks again and happy to borrow any of this for research purposes :D
Alex
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I have a pair of B6's showing up tomorrow. After reading this thread it's going to be interesting how they compare the AV123 X-LS I bought from AV123 for the ridiculous price of $50.00 shipped right before they went under. I also have a prototype X-Plosive sub that I completed that runs with a pair of X-LS's in the master bedroom and a pair of X-LS's in the basement with a prototype MFW15.
Anyway, I am hoping the B6's are as good as people say, this thread really helps explain a lot, I'm glad I found it.
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I have the B6's set up, I know they'll need some time running but initial impressions are the X-LS's have better or make that snappier bottom end but the treble is a tad better in the B6's. As for looks, the X-LS Rosewoods win hands down but then I wasn't buying the Elac's for their looks, hopefully the sound improves over time.
.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=158157)
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Another note, paired up with my MFW-15 they sound fantastic, the wife isn't happy so turning the sub off to run the B6's for a few hours.
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Klipschhead,
I've got one for you, upgrade your X-LS's to X-LS Encores then compare the tweeters. While you are at it, get the Sonicap and Mills resistor upgrades for the X-LS Encore crossovers. Yhen get ready to be amazed.
Mike
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Klipschhead,
I've got one for you, upgrade your X-LS's to X-LS Encores then compare the tweeters. While you are at it, get the Sonicap and Mills resistor upgrades for the X-LS Encore crossovers. Yhen get ready to be amazed.
Mike
I was going to do that back when the Skiing Ninja was offering them, I should have. I am thinking about it again, they are pretty good, all they need is a bit of help in the top end.
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The Encore tweeters definitely bring what you're looking for.
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I was going to do that back when the Skiing Ninja was offering them, I should have. I am thinking about it again, they are pretty good, all they need is a bit of help in the top end.
For the basic upgrade you would need the tweeter with a special faceplate to fit the classic tweeter opening and the fully assembled crossover board.
You can upgrade the stock crossover board by replacing the caps and resistors with Sonicaps and Mills resistors. This is pretty easy to do and only requires a decent soldering iron and basic soldering skills.
If you want a full blown crossover upgrade like the Ninja used to do it is certainly doable. If you don't want to tackle it yourself, there are a few of us here on AC that can build it for you.
Mike
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I stock the tweeters with the larger face plate, and I have sold the tweeters and crossovers together for $96. And that's for a pair.
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Dan, I just finished the level 1 mod, everything is soldered securely and in tact. I used the identical caps and resistors as you did from sonicap/mills. It seems like the low end of my B6's are not what they used to be. Have you measured any changes on the low frequ? I see that the charts posted are the higher end. thanks
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Dan, I just finished the level 1 mod, everything is soldered securely and in tact. I used the identical caps and resistors as you did from sonicap/mills. It seems like the low end of my B6's are not what they used to be. Have you measured any changes on the low frequ? I see that the charts posted are the higher end. thanks
The only change to the bottom end from the level 1 mod is the installation of the No Rez. The No Rez will tighten up the lower end and clean up the lower vocal region. So some of the cabinet resonances that colored the bottom end are gone. Maybe you are missing a little added zing that isn't there anymore and was actual never part of the music signal.
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Haven't done the no rez yet. Perhaps that's the culprit. Also- the stock padding inside the b6, how should it be laid out? Should they only line the inner walls? Because one pad is horizontal on top of the woofer. Thanks
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Haven't done the no rez yet. Perhaps that's the culprit. Also- the stock padding inside the b6, how should it be laid out? Should they only line the inner walls? Because one pad is horizontal on top of the woofer. Thanks
Once the cabinet is lined with No Rez then a loose fill of poly fill or fiberglass insulation can be used behind the woofer. Put the No Rez on all walls.
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Hello Mr. Danny Richie,
I recently acquired a B6 and went through with the level 1 upgrade only on the crossover. I have still not added additional damping inside the cabinet .
The upper midrange has opened up and the highs are now more distinct.
I am in India and have no source for No Rez. Can you suggest any alternate material and how I should lay it inside the cabinet.
Thanks
Kannan
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Hello Mr. Danny Richie,
I recently acquired a B6 and went through with the level 1 upgrade only on the crossover. I have still not added additional damping inside the cabinet .
The upper midrange has opened up and the highs are now more distinct.
I am in India and have no source for No Rez. Can you suggest any alternate material and how I should lay it inside the cabinet.
Thanks
Kannan
I am glad to hear that you are enjoying the upgrade.
See if you can find some type of heavy industrial floor tiles. Line the cabinets with it then add about a 1" open cell foam layer. You can then tweak the tuning with a light amount of fiberglass insulation or polyfill.
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I am glad to hear that you are enjoying the upgrade.
See if you can find some type of heavy industrial floor tiles. Line the cabinets with it then add about a 1" open cell foam layer. You can then tweak the tuning with a light amount of fiberglass insulation or polyfill.
Yes sir,
I have some floor tiles lying around. I presume the idea is to add weight to the enclosure to reduce resonance. But how do I affix it to the MDF (normally in India we use white cement to fix it to the floor). Won't this reduce the inner volume of the enclosure.
Can the same me done on the outside. i.e I mean can I fix the tiles instead on the exterior and add the fiberglass to the inner walls.
One more clarification, there is one more cap and resistor in the crossover, can I swap that too with a higher quality one?
In one of your posts in this thread where you have completely rebuilt the crossover, I see you have used rubber speaker terminals. What exactly is that?
Thanks
Kannan
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I'm pretty sure Danny isn't talking about clay or ceramic floor tiles. I believe he is talking about the Armstrong type which are a vinyl composition tile. They come in 1 foot squares and I found this part number FP51904031. These are glued on with an adhesive that is made for the purpose.
I used these in my laundry room 25 years ago and they cost about a buck a piece. It looks like they are still about the same price. Not sure if you have these tiles but guessing you have something similar.
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I'm pretty sure Danny isn't talking about clay or ceramic floor tiles. I believe he is talking about the Armstrong type which are a vinyl composition tile. They come in 1 foot squares and I found this part number FP51904031. These are glued on with an adhesive that is made for the purpose.
I used these in my laundry room 25 years ago and they cost about a buck a piece. It looks like they are still about the same price. Not sure if you have these tiles but guessing you have something similar.
Yes...we do get vinyl tiles and I think these are totally different from the normal tiles and is affixed with glue. I have not yet seen one though. Will check that out and also wait for Mr. Danny's advice.
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Hey gkannan,
Yes the heavy vinyl tiles are ideal. And you can place them on the outside of the cabinet if you want. You will have to figure out a way to glue them on.
You can also upgrade the cap and resistor used in the woofer circuit.
I think the speaker terminals that you are referring to are these: http://gr-research.com/electracabletubeconnectors.aspx Read through that material. It is very enlightening.
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Hallo
I just did internal bracing on my Elac B6 becouse the problem with resonances. I think that the resonances are gone now.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184669)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184670)
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So now that many of us bought the Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 on sale, any plans for crossover upgrade kits for them? :green:
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So now that many of us bought the Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 on sale, any plans for crossover upgrade kits for them? :green:
From what I've read the 2.0 went for a flatter response with the tweeter, which solves one of the big criticisms of the first run. Maybe all the 2.0 needs are decent caps on the tweeter.
The one that *really* begs for a crossover upgrade is the Elac UB5, which was on sale for only $350/pr (!!!). THAT I think has the most to gain from some basic upgrades.
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......The one that *really* begs for a crossover upgrade is the Elac UB5, which was on sale for only $350/pr (!!!). THAT I think has the most to gain from some basic upgrades.
I was just talking to Dan about this today after I read this thread. I'm planning to send him one to evaluate.
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would anyone recommend extra stuffing in the ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 ?
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I did my updates a few months back with all the new Sonic caps and Mills resistor and also I used small 4"X3" kitchen tiles and glue to strengthen the baffle and eliminated the resonance. Put some Sonic barrier from Parts Express instead of No Rez and use the rest of the poly fill from the original box. The box is very heavy now. I mounted it on a hollow tube metal stand and put some sand inside it. Also, I took off the beauty ring and the tweeter screen. It is now a very good sounding ELAC Debut B6. It elevated the highs which good for me and the lows also. I have the Marantz Pre amp and Emotiva Power Amp that is running it. I am very happy with the outcome. Thank you Danny!! I will be waiting for what Danny will come up with the Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 and/or the Elac UniFi UB5 evaluation.
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I did my updates a few months back with all the new Sonic caps and Mills resistor and also I used small 4"X3" kitchen tiles and glue to strengthen the baffle and eliminated the resonance. Put some Sonic barrier from Parts Express instead of No Rez and use the rest of the poly fill from the original box. The box is very heavy now. I mounted it on a hollow tube metal stand and put some sand inside it. Also, I took off the beauty ring and the tweeter screen. It is now a very good sounding ELAC Debut B6. It elevated the highs which good for me and the lows also. I have the Marantz Pre amp and Emotiva Power Amp that is running it. I am very happy with the outcome. Thank you Danny!! I will be waiting for what Danny will come up with the Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2 and/or the Elac UniFi UB5 evaluation.
Hey, I tried the Sonic Barrier product. It doesn't have a damper to eliminate or control cabinet resonances, but you did add floor tiles and that will help in that regard.
However, the suspended barrier layer tends to mass load the driver in the upper ranges. The result is a muddy sound in the mid-range. Pull that stuff out and just use some fiberglass insulation and it should open up the sound of the mid-range.
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You can also buy sheets / sometimes smaller pieces of 1" Open cell foam from foam outlets. Use some spray adhesive to attach it tothe floor tiles on the side panels. Leave an inch or so clearence for the drivers.
I used to do this until I tried the no-rez.... so much easier,.
jay
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Hey, I tried the Sonic Barrier product. It doesn't have a damper to eliminate or control cabinet resonances, but you did add floor tiles and that will help in that regard.
However, the suspended barrier layer tends to mass load the driver in the upper ranges. The result is a muddy sound in the mid-range. Pull that stuff out and just use some fiberglass insulation and it should open up the sound of the mid-range.
I will try to remove the suspended barrier and use the fiberglass insulation. I may be replace the Sonic Barrier with No Rez if that will help. Where can I get the No Rez?
Thank you for all the assistance.
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I will try to remove the suspended barrier and use the fiberglass insulation. I may be replace the Sonic Barrier with No Rez if that will help. Where can I get the No Rez?
Thank you for all the assistance.
You can order the No Rez right from our site: http://gr-research.com/norez24x27sheet.aspx
But if you already added some floor tiles then that will help quite a bit over how they came form the factory. Just removing the Sonic Barrier and adding the fiberglass insulation alone should really help. The No Rez will take the resonance control up a notch.
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I will try to remove the Sonic barrier first and see what happen. If that helps then no need for the No Rez otherwise, I will get the No rez from your URL you mentioned here. Thanks a lot Danny.
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Interested in what you can do with the UB5s as well. I like the idea of modding these and upping the performance. They are still available for $316 on Amazon for the pair.
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Interested in what you can do with the UB5s as well. I like the idea of modding these and upping the performance. They are still available for $316 on Amazon for the pair.
Send them to me and I'll do my thing and give you some recommendations.
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ELAC Debut B6.2 review
https://www.pressreader.com/australia/australian-hifi/20190301/283356178455276
Two of the 6 graphs:
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/ELAC-B6_2-SPL-frequency-composite.png) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/ELAC-B6_2-SPL-frequency-composite.png)
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/ELAC-B6_2-impedance-phase.png) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/ELAC-B6_2-impedance-phase.png)
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/ELAC-B6_2-crossover-2.jpg)
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/ELAC-B6_2-crossover.jpg)
BTW, there are measurements with and without grills.
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Looks like a lot of upgrade potential.
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Yesterday one of its owners asked me one with better flat response, greater sensitivity and front bass-reflex too. The options he raised were cheap. After researching I found the review and advised him that in that price range it would be best to try to improve the one he has.
87 dB and impedance > 6 Ohms ... with 30 watts at 8 Ohms is enough for 80 dBSPL continuous + DR15 at 3 m from each loudspeaker.
https://www.doctorproaudio.com/content.php?2273-calculators-proaudio-sound-dmx&langid=1#calc_spl
You buy one more expensive, beautiful on the outside and then it turns out that they have spent the minimum inside, in the crossover components and with internal resonances.
In addition, we are a species in danger of extinction those who listen to very good recordings with great dynamic range. For modern commercial recordings ...
PS: when I saw the steel nuts I remembered the magnet you used in the first YouTube video of the Klipsch RP-600M.
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I see this in so many speakers, what about the baffle is causing the on axis tweeter dip at 3K that fills in off axis, and what baffle shape *wouldn't* have produced this dip?
Thank you,
David.
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I see this in so many speakers, what about the baffle is causing the on axis tweeter dip at 3K that fills in off axis, and what baffle shape *wouldn't* have produced this dip?
Thank you,
David.
Good observation.
It is a typical surface reflection.
A baffle with a larger rounded edge or with a tweeter in a wave guide will produce a different result.
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Danny,
Can you think of any examples of bookshelf/stand two cabinets you have seen that won't have this 3K dip?
Thank you,
David.
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Theoretically, it's the sphere in space with a full range driver. In practice, it's an Egg shape.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.soundonsound.com/reviews/se-electronics-munro-egg-150%3famp
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Theoretically, it's the sphere in space with a full range driver. In practice, it's an Egg shape.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.soundonsound.com/reviews/se-electronics-munro-egg-150%3famp
Very well said and a nice example you have there. It's the reason my speakers use a large Oblate Spheroidal Waveguide along with heavily rounded over (2 inch radii) front baffle edges. Super smooth looking and very audible, especially at higher SPL levels. Unfortunately, it is expensive too.
Best,
Anand.
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It's not necessarily a great speaker, but it's a good one, as was the Waveform Mach 17 model that used an Egg shaped enclosure. It's a shame neither company caught on. The shape is the important part to reduce diffraction. A designer still has a lot to do to design the rest of a great speaker though. :D
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Danny,
Can you think of any examples of bookshelf/stand two cabinets you have seen that won't have this 3K dip?
Thank you,
David.
There are plenty out there that are flat in that region, but in the off axis everything else drops off except that spot.
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It's not necessarily a great speaker, but it's a good one, as was the Waveform Mach 17 model that used an Egg shaped enclosure. It's a shame neither company caught on. The shape is the important part to reduce diffraction. A designer still has a lot to do to design the rest of a great speaker though. :D
The Waveform Mach 17 was exactly the speaker I was thinking of when I saw that link.
Best,
Anand.
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There are plenty out there that are flat in that region, but in the off axis everything else drops off except that spot.
And the only remedy to that is a *wide* baffle or waveguide?
Thank you,
David.
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And the only remedy to that is a *wide* baffle or waveguide?
Thank you,
David.
A small rounded baffle or wave guide.
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I just finished up the level 2 mod and figured I'd post some pics of it.
Here is the all new crossover.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/newcrossover1.jpg)
For those of you that ordered this upgrade please see the way the parts are laid out.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/newcrossover2.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/newcrossover3.jpg)
The tube connectors installed easily. I also added a jumper from the tube connectors down to the old binding posts so that either or can be used. What I like about this is that it allows you to A/B the difference between the connectors so that you can hear how much difference the tube connectors make.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/connectors.jpg)
And here is how it looks with them installed.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/connectors2.jpg)
And here is a shot of the crossovers installed and the cabinets lined with No Rez.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/assembly.jpg)
I also laid in just a little bit of fiberglass insulation on the back wall and over the crossover.
(http://gr-research.com/Elac/stuffing.jpg)
They are now together and burning in. I'll give listening impressions in a few days.
Hi,
I live in France and recently i bought B6.
While searching on google, I came across this post. The level 2 mod interests me and I would like to know if you still offer the KIT
P.S: Sorry for my english thank you google translate or not ;)
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Hi,
I live in France and recently i bought B6.
While searching on google, I came across this post. The level 2 mod interests me and I would like to know if you still offer the KIT
P.S: Sorry for my english thank you google translate or not ;)
Sure, I can send you all of that. I'll need to chop up the No Rez into four pieces to get the dimensional weight down to where the postal service can handle it and then no problem.
$290 plus shipping. I'll have to get it weighed to get a total with shipping, but I'm guessing it to be about $90 in shipping.
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Sure, I can send you all of that. I'll need to chop up the No Rez into four pieces to get the dimensional weight down to where the postal service can handle it and then no problem.
$290 plus shipping. I'll have to get it weighed to get a total with shipping, but I'm guessing it to be about $90 in shipping.
OK for me ;)
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Danny, have you had a chance to measure & come up with a mod kit for the B6.2 yet?
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Danny, have you had a chance to measure & come up with a mod kit for the B6.2 yet?
No, no one has sent a pair of those in yet.
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YouTube Elac Debut 2.0 Upgrades and Modifications! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m_GJ8JQpCI)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=206666)
Red: original
Green: new crossover by Danny Richie
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I'm assuming the newest Elac upgrade is the B6.2. I would be interested in Danny's comparison between the two upgraded versions, the B6 vs. the B6.2. Which does he feel is most successful or about the same. I'm currently listening to the original B6 which have no-rez, beauty ring mods, and damped woofer frames. I have not done the crossover/redesigned crossover mod. The rolled off top end does not bother me. Just wondering. Thanks.
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I'm assuming the newest Elac upgrade is the B6.2. I would be interested in Danny's comparison between the two upgraded versions, the B6 vs. the B6.2. Which does he feel is most successful or about the same. I'm currently listening to the original B6 which have no-rez, beauty ring mods, and damped woofer frames. I have not done the crossover/redesigned crossover mod. The rolled off top end does not bother me. Just wondering. Thanks.
With the upgrades the newer 6.2 should be a pretty nice speaker.
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With the upgrades the newer 6.2 should be a pretty nice speaker.
Hi Danny. In your opinion how does the upgraded Elac B6.2 compare to the X-LS encore?
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Hi Danny. In your opinion how does the upgraded Elac B6.2 compare to the X-LS encore?
All things being equal and using the same quality of parts gets them close, but the X-LS Encore still has better drivers and will still out perform it across the board.
But of all of the upgrades I've done lately this one might just be the best yet. This little Elac, with the upgrades, comes up to a pretty high level.
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ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 Speaker Review
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/elac-debut-2-0-b6-2-speaker-review.14272/
(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/elac-debut-2-0-b6-2-cea2034-spinorama-early-reflections-frequency-response-measurements-png.70208/) (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/elac-debut-2-0-b6-2-cea2034-spinorama-early-reflections-frequency-response-measurements-png.70208/)
(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/elac-debut-2-0-b6-2-thd-distortion-measurements-png.70211/) (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/elac-debut-2-0-b6-2-thd-distortion-measurements-png.70211/)
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Hi Danny, I improved the first level for Elac B6, there are too many high frequencies, you can do a little less, can I use a capacitor of less capacity or a resistor with less impedance and without a capacitor?
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Hi Danny, I improved the first level for Elac B6, there are too many high frequencies, you can do a little less, can I use a capacitor of less capacity or a resistor with less impedance and without a capacitor?
If you are looking to soften the top end on the stock network then increase the value of the 22 ohm resistor slightly.
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Just came across this Lab Report from down under for the Elac B6.2. Thanks google for hiding it all these years.
https://www.pressreader.com/australia/australian-hifi/20190301/283356178455276
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Great write up. I recommended these speakers to a friend of my sons and he bought a whole surround sound system with these as the fronts, the B5.2's for the rear and a B6.2 center channel along with an Elac 3010 sub. His jaw dropped when he heard them and they are getting better as they are breaking in. He can't stop listening to music. He is using them with the new Yamaha RX-6 AVR.
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Just came across this Lab Report from down under for the Elac B6.2. Thanks google for hiding it all these years.
https://www.pressreader.com/australia/australian-hifi/20190301/283356178455276
I designed an upgrade for that one too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m_GJ8JQpCI&t=16s
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Great write up. I recommended these speakers to a friend of my sons and he bought a whole surround sound system with these as the fronts, the B5.2's for the rear and a B6.2 center channel along with an Elac 3010 sub. His jaw dropped when he heard them and they are getting better as they are breaking in. He can't stop listening to music. He is using them with the new Yamaha RX-6 AVR.
I have F6.2x2, C5.2, OW4.2x4, A4.2x2 using the Denon AVR-X4500H which has an in-built graphic EQ that can be adjusted and set for each speaker. Boy-O-Boy does that help bring the best out of the speakers, especially when using L/R for stereo music. What Danny has observed is something that I felt in my use of the Elac Debut 2.0 speakers but did not quite know how to express it, and that is Spectral Decay. It is simply phenomenal.
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I thought it would be pertinent to chime in on this thread given the interest!!
Danny does give praise to the overall performance of the speaker, so my design can't be all bad...... ;-)
It would seem that my designs are the target of aftermarket upgrades, so that’s either praise of the basic design being worthy of spending time upgrading, or an indictment of the design that it needs upgrading ;-)
I'll give you some of my thoughts on the mods that Danny proposes and also some warnings where necessary....
Firstly, let me say that I am required to point out that any modifications that you make will obviously void the warranty, so be careful!
Now this is not the first time that one of my designs has been the subject of a long thread of how to modify it to get better results. I will say now what I have said before, and I know that Danny doesn't deny this: The reason why it is worth even thinking about modifying it is that it begins as a tremendous value product for the money.
When I designed this product, I had to meet a certain price target. It's nice to think, as an audiophile, that price points are somewhat negotiable: $199, $209, $219, $229...they are all close enough aren't they? The actual answer is no. Price point is critical in retail sales. Miss by a little and sales can go to virtually zero as the large box retailer totally rejects the product when it is the wrong price point. This becomes a major challenge in the design process. Every part that adds cost to the bill of materials has to be very carefully evaluated as to its impact on the performance.
Let me go through some of these mods and look at the cost/performance issues and discuss why I chose the path that I did.
I note that Danny chose to lift the extreme top end of the response by bypassing the series resistor on the tweeter. That's nice, if that's the response that you want as opposed to the sound that has received such praise, but it adds cost. That option would have had to be paid for by taking it out of something else. Likewise the substitution of the sand cast resistor with a Mills resistor would have taken the cost way up, as would substituting the film cap with a Sonicap. I doubt that paying for these alternative caps and resistors by taking away from the overall design would be a good trade-off in the original. (As an aside, the added cap across the resistor does not work because of a supposed inductive component of the resistor. It simple reduces attenuation of the tweeter above a certain frequency).
Danny comments on the quality of the cabinet MDF and the thickness of the baffle and wrap. The cabinet is the major cost in a speaker. It would be nice, wouldn't it, to have thicker cabinet walls, internal bracing, more rigid MDF, more internal damping etc. However, all of this would greatly increase the cost, and for what? Let’s think about cabinet vibration. The major excitation source if the reaction force imparted to the magnet and hence driver frame that feeds mechanical energy into the cabinet causing it to vibrate. Now, measures to thicken up the walls, or use a higher grade of MDF, absolutely do not remove the resonances. They move them up in frequency. In fact, they can become more audible!
The grade of MDF I chose is softer and so has better internal damping, and can actually sound better than the "better" grades. In fact my early prototype cabinets were better built, with internal bracing and thicker walls. When I looked at the cost I realized that this cost would be better spent on improved cone materials, larger voice coils, larger magnets, better-than-standard xover complexity and parts etc.
Regarding the internal damping material, the cabinet is not stuffed full. This is deliberate. Besides costing more for a higher grade and more of a better damping material, there is a fallacy involved in the effect of damping material. In theory, a heavily stuffed cabinet changes from adiabatic expansion to isothermal and as such appears to be up to 1.4 times larger. This effective increase in cabinet size is offset by the greater resistive losses and so the performance gain is not that great. In the practical quantities that we are likely to see used, the effective increase is negligible. However, in a vented box system, putting in too much damping material will severely reduce the output of the vent and greatly reduce bass output. The choice I made of damping material was optimized between damping to some degree the standing waves while not impacting bass performance.
Danny shows a measurement of the impedance of the speaker that shows some apparent resonances around 25Hz and 60Hz. He attributes these to internal standing waves. This is erroneous. The cabinet cannot support standing waves at these low frequencies. If they exist they are more likely to be mechanically coupled. However these blips in the impedance curve do not show up in my measurements. I suggest that they are due to something in the measurement procedure. I know the repeat measurement after the modifications shows they are gone, but I wouldn’t attribute this to the added stuffing reducing internal standing waves. I would however encourage Danny to re-investigate these measurements.
On the subject of the trim rings, removing them will change the response measured on certain axes, but will have little effect on the frontal average response, since the effects changing at different measurement axes because they are due to diffraction, You may notice subtle changes depending on your room acoustics, and very large changes depending upon your eyesight...LOL. I designed the speaker to have the trim to improve the looks by covering the chassis and screws. A worthwhile trade I believe towards getting a successful looking visual design that will appeal even with the grille off.
Talking of eyesight, no wonder Danny is happy with the trims removed, as he could not see that the inductor he discusses is not actually connected at both ends to the same trace. The break in the trace is hidden under a component, but a simple test with a component bridge or multi-meter would have confirmed this is.
So, based on the first modification offered, you will have a speaker that looks uglier and sounds different. Your choice.
However, if you go ahead be very careful. Danny does warn about the difficulty of removing the trim. Using a flat bladed screwdriver to prize off the trim very close to the driver surround requires careful dexterity. One slip and you will tear the surround. How do I know I hear you ask? Perhaps because I’ve done it myself? At least I have lots of spare drivers at my disposal. ;-)
Also, removing components from the xover circuit board is not easy. They are all epoxied to the board. Don't expect to remove them and restore it back to original if you decide you need to.
Next, the level 2 mods. Be careful with this regarding the change in xover frequency. The change to the tweeter puts more power into it at the lower frequencies. Potentially as much as double the power. I am sure that Danny hasn't done long term power handling tests on multiple samples to make sure that it can still meet its specifications for max power. I know I have for the original design, but not for the modified version.
Additionally, during manufacture the tweeter is measured and tested to performance limits within its expected working frequency range. The spread in response away from the reference is holding within +/-0.75dB during production over the range from 3kHz to 10kHz, which is quite impressive for a budget speaker. Using it down to a lower frequency will take it into a range where I don't guarantee such tight tolerance, so your expected results could vary. I normally design around drivers that are selected to match the mean of production, not around a single sample.
Also, changing all the inductors to Erse 16 gauge air core will likely change the effective resistance of the inductors. I accounted for inductor resistance in my design, and in fact take this into account for the bass tuning. So changes in this will also alter the bass respone.
In conclusion, for the cost of the level 2 upgrade, you will get a different sound, hopefully one you like, because there is no going back if you make the changes, and remember, no warranty.
For that much extra money on top of the purchase price, you could get a pair of the F5 speakers, or wait for my next series of speakers.... :-)
I don’t want to sound like a Debbie Downer over this. Ours is a great hobby. I started as a hobbyist. It’s fun to experiment. It’s even more fun to feel accomplishment from your experiments. Just be careful. Be sure that these mods are going to give you the sound you want before you commit to making changes.
I’ll finish with a great quote. This is taken from one of the best textbooks on Acoustics, written by Leo L. Beranek. “It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else’s loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in performing a person’s opinion.”
Above all, Have fun!
Andrew
Hey Andrew,
I am a proud owner of the Pioneer FS52, BS22, Original Debut B6, F5 and F6.2. Thank you for the great work. Each of them is pure magic in its own right depending upon the music you are listening. I have these installed in individual rooms of the house :)
After listening to the F6.2 since Nov 2018, I came to the realization that these drivers are much more capable than what you have them doing in the F6.2 cabinet and I hit upon the age old idea of adding polyfill to the F6.2 and man-o-man....it is just so much better. It feels like a speaker twice it's size with the clarity that it always had.
Thank you!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=217204)
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I know this post is very old. I'm just curious where all the measurements went? Can I find them anywhere else?
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Hi @Danny Richie i have received a pair of elac b5´s. I was trying to see the explanations from the first pages, but the images are not available anymore. Can you, or someone who knows how to do it, tell me how to just add the bypass cap?? I am not an expert on this things but i know how to solder some components.
Many thanks to everyone who can help.
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A bypass cap is just connected in parallel to the cap being bypassed. Bypass caps are typically 0.1uF. Ideally you will want one on each cap in the signal path.
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Ok..i have seen to bypass the resistor, others refer the capacitor..don´t know whats right.
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I know this post is very old. I'm just curious where all the measurements went? Can I find them anywhere else?
When we changed servers the pics weren't able to be found on the new server. We've been working on a way to make them all transfer and be seen, but it looks like we've hit a dead end there. So I might have to reload them one by one to get them back up.
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It will be nice if we can see the pictures again, in my case to help me get the .47uF cap in the right place :)
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Would love to be able to see the pictures in the first post!
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Sorry about the missing pictures. There are thousands of them that didn't transfer from my old service provider to the new one.
Email me on this and I will send them over to you.
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Thanks Danny. Email sent
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Any advice for upgrade reference version of those speakers?
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Hi,
I have not seen anyone send the reference version to Danny to be upgraded. I have helped one of my friends upgrade his by assembling a new xover using the same values and just better parts. I was able to get all most the parts from Danny too.These have giant value caps in the woofer so it gets pretty pricey quick. You can reachout to me if you have questions about it.
Frederick
frederickdelrosario111@gmail.com
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Hallo
I just did internal bracing on my Elac B6 becouse the problem with resonances. I think that the resonances are gone now.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184669)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184670)
Why only 1 rib going side to side? Cost almost nothing in time or money for 2?