[BikeFi10]

DAC  virgin here  Im very analog with a few cds played here and there.
Told my wife about DACs. She liked the idea about easy access to quality recordings so she gave me some $ for my bday to buy a DAC. My journey now begins wading through the plethora of info on these things.
Ill be using an ipad for music source app and feeding the DAC to my analog pre amp.
Ive read some on the different file formats and definately want to go the higher rez route. Id rather have less music thats high quality than hundreds of lower rez songs.
Im opened to the used market and budget is in $400 range.
Any suggestions? Thanks!

[WGH]

Streaming or buying? Some DACs do both. You can stream hi-res music from a lot of sources now. You will have to try each service for a month to find the one that has the music selection you like. The DAC will stream and the ipad is the control.

My hi-res DAC doesn't stream, it buys. If I want hi-res then I have to open my wallet. Check out prices on HD TRacks. Streaming hi-res is a monthly fee, I was paying $20 a month until I dropped it, the sound quality was OK but still left me unsatisfied. There is a thread about Tidal screwing with the sound quality even if you are paying top tier.

Your electronics and speakers will determine if there is any benefit paying extra for hi-res. What do you got?

[JMW73]

You are honestly talking about 2 different things (that are sometimes in the same box).  A streamer and a DAC.

The Bluesound Node is probably going to be your best bet to get introduced to this.  It is a streamer with a built in DAC, and the option to upgrade to an external DAC (it has digital outs).  It has a nice app and will do what you need.  You can find them used no problem.  Just subscribe to Tidal or Qobuz and get started.  It will also play stored music on your network, if you have such a digital library.

[JMW73]

For the uninitiated (can't tell if you're in that category), anything that is digital with an analog out has a DAC (Digital to Analog Convertor) onboard.  Computers, phones, TVs, CD/DVD/Bluray players, etc.  Then, with the proliferation of computerized music delivery such as streaming, outboard DACs got more popular.  People would use them with their CD Players previously.  Simultaneously, streamers became a category.  A streamer is a specialized computer that streams digital music and often has an app that goes along with it.  Some streamers have DACs onboard and some don't.  Some DACs have preamp capabilities.  And now there is a category of integrated amplifiers that have DACs... and sometimes streamers.  NAD makes a nice all-in-one.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Schiit Modius
ifi Zen  Signature V2 or Signature One if you want BT.
Chord Mojo


Things to consider-
All will do Hi-Rez, the Modius does not do DSD which is no big deal.  Same for MQA. The Schiit is American made.

The Bluesound Node is $200 above your budget.

[newzooreview]

The Cheap Audio Man Youtube channel is a good place to start to get a sense of options and features in the $400 price range (and a bit below and above).

https://www.youtube.com/c/cheapaudioman/search?query=streamer

I think that in that price range the bigger differences will relate to design and function versus sound quality when discriminating among the options. There are likely some that do not sound good, but there are a fair number of well-known options that do sound similar/decent for the money.

Could you clarify--are you interested in just buying some high resolution music from online sources (Presto Music, NativeDSD, Qobuz, HD Tracks, etc.)? Or would you like to be able to stream high resolution music as well?

For streaming high resolution music I use Qobuz because a) almost everything is available to buy and download if I want a local copy; b) their prices for downloads are typically lower than others (except Presto, which I always double check for jazz and classical); and c) they do promote MQA snake oil.

For purely working with locally stored files, you would still need a way to tell the DAC what files to play (or send files to the DAC).

If you have a computer connected by USB to the DAC then you could just get a USB-capable DAC (and maximize the amount of money going into the DAC). If you want the device to the connect to your local network then it typically needs some built-in software that is controlled by another device on the network to give it the instructions about what files to play.

If you could provide more detail about how you want or expect to use the Streamer/DAC that might help.

[newzooreview]

P.S. In my comments above I was thinking of streaming as playing music from an internet-based service. Playing music files stored on a hard drive connected to the DAC or a Network Attached Storage (NAS) box (like a Synology NAS) is also considered streaming the way many folks use the term. I didn't mean to confuse things.

[newzooreview]

A device in your price range (actually just $200) is the Allo Boss2 Player.

https://www.allo.com/sparky/boss2-player.html

It runs the Moode audio operating system pre-installed. https://moodeaudio.org/

You can just plug in a USB drive with your files on it, connect the Allo Boss 2 to WiFi/ethernet, and control everything from your phone, iPad, or computer. It has RCA outputs to connect to your preamp.

I have had excellent luck with Allo products, but have not tried this particular model.

[BikeFi10]

Wow, like I posted, a plethora of info, but thanks for all the replys.
Heres my mix of answers, comments, questions to the replys.
Yes, I know DAC is any means of digital to analog.
My analog rig sounds pretty good. Musichall 9.1 tt, Nagaoka cart, Carver pre amp & 200 w/ch amp, Magnepan 1.7i speakers, Rythmik 400w sub.
I checked Cheap Audio Guy? Tier rating vid on DACs. Very nice breakdown.
I have Pandora, itunes, Amazon apps. How is that different from the aforementioned streaming music apps? I dont want to pay $15, $20 + per month.
If I have to use another app to buy music, I dont know how much memory wife's ipad has. Would it be stored in cloud? Sorry, Im not not totally up computer knowledge.
Is there a big difference in quality between 24bit/196k hz and MGA or DSD? And would a DAC in my price range be underwhelming for such Hi Rez files?
Thanks.

[newzooreview]

Wow, like I posted, a plethora of info, but thanks for all the replys.
Heres my mix of answers, comments, questions to the replys.
Yes, I know DAC is any means of digital to analog.
My analog rig sounds pretty good. Musichall 9.1 tt, Nagaoka cart, Carver pre amp & 200 w/ch amp, Magnepan 1.7i speakers, Rythmik 400w sub.
I checked Cheap Audio Guy? Tier rating vid on DACs. Very nice breakdown.
I have Pandora, itunes, Amazon apps. How is that different from the aforementioned streaming music apps? I dont want to pay $15, $20 + per month.
If I have to use another app to buy music, I dont know how much memory wife's ipad has. Would it be stored in cloud? Sorry, Im not not totally up computer knowledge.
Is there a big difference in quality between 24bit/196k hz and MGA or DSD? And would a DAC in my price range be underwhelming for such Hi Rez files?
Thanks.

It sounds like you want to stream the iTunes/Pandora/Amazon music that you already have access to. Is that correct?

Amazon has an HD music option. Is that what you are using? Pandora and iTunes do not provide high resolution music (e.g., above 16/44 CD redbook resolution). In fact, in most cases they stream compressed music.

MQA is fraudulent and should be ignored/avoided. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRjsu9-Vznc

192/24 and DSD can sound fantastic. However, when considering ≤ $400 music streamer/DAC then no, high resolution tracks with the same mastering of 16/44 (CD quality) tracks do not sound better. The confounding factor is that in some cases the "high resolution" track was remastered from the source recording and sounds better because of the remastering. If you have a ≥ $2000 DAC and the rest of the system is also very resolving then yes, the 192/24 track can sound even better.

For my system with a Holo May KTE DAC to Pass Labs Amp to Spatial Audio M3 Sapphire speakers, I look for DSD when I can get it (very rare) because the May DAC has truly native DSD conversion. Most DACs that handle DSD do not actually have native DSD conversion (it get translated to PCM internally).

But that is far afield from your question.

Are you playing files stored on a hard drive or just streaming music from iTunes/Spotify/Amazon (HD?). This needs to be pinned down definitively before recommendations are meaningful.

[JMW73]

I'm with newzooreview... I'm left wondering what exactly you are trying to accomplish.

It sounds like you want to store files and/or stream on the iPad and play from there, through a DAC connected to your system?  Pandora, and itunes will NOT be hi rez as mentioned... Amazon might be if you have their HD option.

You have two options: buy files and store them locally, or stream (Amazon, Tidal, Qobuz).  Buying files uses memory while streaming does not.  Buying files limits you to the options that you purchased while streaming gives you the whole catalog the service has.

Here are the problems with buying a DAC (at any price), and doing what I assume above:

1) You will spend more than a Qobuz subscription on HD files.
2) You will run out of storage on that iPad QUICK.
3) The iPad will be tethered to your system giving you no remote control options.
4) Your ability to play hi rez will be limited (see above)

I say this with all humility... I have a lot of experience with this and have wasted a ton of money on it.  Go get a used Bluesound Node and pay for Amazon HD or Qobuz and this will eliminate all of the above problems.  You can have the ipad in your lap for control and you can store local files that you purchase on a computer somewhere on your network.  If you are happy with that, you can eventually upgrade the DAC.  Another option is iFi Zen products, but I think for a beginner, the Bluesound will be the most user friendly.  Besides, it's super well reviewed and high quality.

Here is what I settled on, which is understandably more expensive that your budget:

Roon dedicated server (NUC computer) --> Denafrips Iris DDC --> Denafrips Pontus II DAC --> Pre, power, etc...  I have locally stored files that I never seem to access because I have Tidal and Qobuz and Roon builds my library from all of those sources.

[BikeFi10]

Ok MQA is out. Thats one thing off the list. I was under the impression a DAC would provide higher rez and better sounding music than a cd format. My records on tt sound much better than cds on my cd Blue Ray dvd player that cost $2k in its day.
Im sure our Amazon app is standard compressed. My wife uses it with her bluetooth JBL speakers by the pool which is fine there, but my stereo rig in our dedicated music room is for quality recordings. I can look into Amazon HD.
My pc is in another level of the house, so thats why Id use ipad. I do have an extra external drive I can dedicate for storage. Can that be used with ipad / DAC?
I think it was Daynco on youtube? Who rated the Schitt Modus with a Raspberry streamer better and less expensive than the Bluesound, but he didnt mention built in app. That may be Bluesounds advantage.
I guess Im looking at both options, buy / stream. Seems similiar to tv. So streaming is Netflex, hulu. Buying is dvds, downloads. Ill need to compare costs.

[Tyson]

I've tried all the streaming services and Qobuz has the best sound, IMO.  I'd use that if I were you, over the other options.  It's cheap and it has a massive library. 

You also get better sound with an external streamer that will plug in to your DAC.  IMO, having an 'all in one' device with streaming and DAC together (like the Bluesound) does not get you the best sound. 

I also 2nd the recommendation to setup a dedicated server using Roon.  It's got the best interface and sound quality, it will let you stream your local files from your hard drives, as well as stream Qobuz. 

[JMW73]

I've tried all the streaming services and Qobuz has the best sound, IMO.  I'd use that if I were you, over the other options.  It's cheap and it has a massive library. 

You also get better sound with an external streamer that will plug in to your DAC.  IMO, having an 'all in one' device with streaming and DAC together (like the Bluesound) does not get you the best sound. 

I also 2nd the recommendation to setup a dedicated server using Roon.  It's got the best interface and sound quality, it will let you stream your local files from your hard drives, as well as stream Qobuz.

I'd agree (separate streamer and DAC), except he's a beginner with a $400 budget.

To sum up what I was saying... YOU NEED A STREAMER!  Build one from a RPi or whatever... and yes, the control app is what is going to set the Bluesound apart.  Build an RPi and you can use Roon, but that is a subscription.  You can look into Volumio too.  I feel like that costs money too.

With a streamer, it won't matter that the computer is in another part of the house.  If it's on your network (connected to the same wifi as the streamer) that's all that matters.  Roon will find it.  Bluesound will find it.

[WGH]

There isn't that much, if any, difference in sound quality between a 44.1 and 96kHz hi-res file, especially using a $400 streamer/DAC. Your system has to be set up to the nth degree, speaker position is optimized, and you're sitting in the sweet spot and not moving your head.

Tidal currently has a $3 for 3 Months promotion. That is a good way to start.

You have "a few cds played here and there". Time to expand your catalog by going to used CD stores, yard and estate sales. All us old audiophiles are dropping like flies and their old CDs and records are being sold for a song. You could probably find Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs records for $1 each because few people (present company excepted) want music recorded 52 years ago except for nostalgia. When I was buying new music in 1970 I certainly was not scouring the bins for music recorded in 1918.

Rip the CDs on a computer to FLAC files using the free Exact Audio Copy and stream to your new DAC. Each album will be about 350MB, 24 bit/96kHz FLAC is about 970MB, Carmen Gomes' album RAY in glorious 768kH is 11.9 GB.



I think you will find that ripped CD's will sound better on a new DAC than on the old CD player.
 


 

[newzooreview]

Im sure our Amazon app is standard compressed. My wife uses it with her bluetooth JBL speakers by the pool which is fine there, but my stereo rig in our dedicated music room is for quality recordings.

Something for $400 hooked up to your main stereo will sound better than the bluetooth JBL speakers by the pool. Your pre-amp, amp, and speakers in that setup are significantly better. If you want the convenience of digital files brought to your main stereo system then you can get that. However, for $400 you will not hear any benefit from high resolution files, in my experience.

If you can pick the source format (Amazon HD, Qobuz, locally stored files, etc.?) then it will be easier to make recommendations. Some streamers handle Qobuz but not Amazon HD, for example. Locally stored files are very easy to accommodate, but if you also want to use a streaming service that changes the options as well.

[WGH]

High resolution files are better at resolving low level detail: recordings made in a reverberate space; minimally miked music that preserves phase; the subtle effect of individuals performing live together.

Not many recordings have those elements. Rock and Roll, Low-Fi, EDM, modern pop, doesn't have any low level information to resolve. The sound may be 2% smoother but I would hate to try to identify the 96kHz or 44.1kHz recording of a rock and roll re-issue from HD Tracks.

[BikeFi10]

Yes, as in any audio device seperates are better and give more flexability. Ill follow up on recommendations here.
Maybe Ill have to hold off and build up my budget.
I realized during this that I do have a switch box in music room that I can connect an ethernet cable to and network with my pc and external drives, but ipad probably wont pair with that. Pc is about 10 years old. WiFi too, but router far away at another level.
WGH...As far as cds, very few sound good as records. Unlike many different record pressing qualitys, I thought cds aside from scads were all 16bit/96khz. I find many sound too bright, brittely, very compressed.
I dont know about your area, but used GOOD condition records are $15 & UP. New sucky digital mastered, $20 &up. And audiophile quality $40, $50 & UP. Vinyl is still hot.

[Doublej]

I'd start with this little $9 DAC dongle from Apple and connect it to your iPhone or iPad. You'll need a 3.5mm to RCA patch cable which will cost you almost as much as the DAC.
 
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMX62AM/A/lightning-to-35-mm-headphone-jack-adapter

[BikeFi10]

Guess I could mention that I do like rock, jazz, folk, indie, etc, but I know few  pressings wow in quality. A few originals and all my audiophile pressings do provide that WOW factor especially Jazz and mellow artists. So I guess I would expect the same from hi rez digital.