The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #20 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 12:10 am »

I can not do everything. Only a few cables and speakers cabinets. Everyone can do it.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #21 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 12:40 am »

You could make the same analogy about amps as fullrangeman makes about speakers... or preamps... almost anything for that matter.

I wonder what the cost of the drivers in the $2000/pr Paolo Audio Klassikas I saw at CAF were. Can't be much; its just an 8" fullrange with a whizzer cone.

As for the argument that full range crossoverless speakers are inherently "the best" and that multi-way speakers are just ripoffs designed to "con" gullible consumers, well, everybody's entitled to their own opinion. The single driver systems I heard at CAF all seemed to suffer from obvious colorations, limited range, and poor dynamics. To each his own. Personally, I think fullrange drivers have their place: in headphones. But that's only my opinion.

My point being, anybody can look at some data sheets, choose some drivers, put them in a box, (or on a baffle for that matter), and hook them up. That doesn't mean they will sound good-or bad The devil's in the details as they say.

There's a story about a factory owner that had a machine that wouldn't work. He called a serviceperson out who walked around the machine, scratched his chin, and looked at it for a few minutes. Finally he went to his tool kit, got a monkey wrench, walked over to the machine, and gave it a sharp hard tap. The machine roared to life. He then presented the factory owner with a bill for $5,000. ""FIVE GRAND?" he bellowed, "FOR TAPPING A MACHINE??!?" "No", said the reapair man, "That was only $5. The other $4995 was for knowing where to tap."

Now, garden-hose-sized power cables for preamps that draw 25 watts, that's a different kettle of fish imho...

timind · « **Reply #22 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 12:54 am »

The way to beat the high retail price is to buy used. I just bought a pair of $4400 (retail) speaks for $1400. Ok, they are 5 or 6 years old but sound like they should.

srb · « **Reply #23 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 12:57 am »

Quote from: timind on 23 Jul 2012, 12:54 am

The way to beat the high retail price is to buy used. I just bought a pair of $4400 (retail) speaks for $1400. Ok, they are 5 or 6 years old but sound like they should.

I assume that means they sound good. Probably because they have a tweeter.

Steve

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #24 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 01:01 am »

$2K are not much for a speaker, but those mention on Polymer site sales for 20K to 30K, of course they may be well made or sound good, but it not justify this hi price.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #25 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 01:09 am »

Quote from: srb on 23 Jul 2012, 12:57 am

I assume that means they sound good. Probably because they have a tweeter.

Steve

Ah this is curious, cos a tweeter had a standard Tss Tss sound, they sound all the same, the sound dont spread in the room, the sound in extended in freq, but not musical.
I had a problem with tweeters. But as all persons listen in a different way I understand your point.

medium jim · « **Reply #26 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 01:13 am »

It makes happy that I own Magnepan's that are completely made in the USA!

Jim

neobop · « **Reply #27 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 01:21 am »

Quote from: srb on 22 Jul 2012, 10:20 pm

That driver cost analysis is brought to you by Polymer Audio Research Co. to compare their Polymer Logic to the competition.

They say their Polymer Logic $24,990 MSRP speaker pair contains $27,940 worth of drivers. Each speaker contains 1 x Supravox TG1 tweeter @ $430, 2 x proprietary woofers @ $595 ea. and 1 x Thiel & Partner Diamond Code Midrange @ $12,350 ea.

Say what? $12,350 for a midrange driver? I'm not buying it. I'm not convinced that their value is much better than any other Internet Direct marketed speaker. In the end, it comes down to how does their $25K speaker sound compared to another $25K speaker?

Steve

Exactly. The midrange driver, Thiel and Partner is Accuton - diamond driver. The diamond tweeters are supposed to be very fast and it was formerly thought that diamond was inappropriate for a midrange. Beryllium might be faster. I've heard neither the tweet or mid. What's up with the unnamed proprietary woofers at $600 ea? Obviously, Polymer Audio gets them wholesale. This ad is misleading. I know at least one of these speaker companies, Wilson, modifies drivers and rejects many. This isn't reflected in the price of an individual driver. What about proprietary designs, driver testing, and lead laminated cabinets?

FULLRANGEMAN,
There's a whole world of speakers out there. Some of them are obviously not for you. I used to have full range electrostatics. Some of those run $30k or more, unfortunately mine didn't. So what?

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #28 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 01:37 am »

A 12K midrange is strange indeed. These diamonds tweeters use industrial diamonds(zirconia) they are very small, a kind of dust/sand.
I had two friends who buy Zirconia to made jewelry, it not expensive.

PRELUDE · « **Reply #29 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 01:39 am »

Quote from: FULLRANGEMAN on 23 Jul 2012, 01:01 am

$2K are not much for a speaker, but those mention on Polymer site sales for 20K to 30K, of course they may be well made or sound good, but it not justify this hi price.

$2K would not even cover the parts for those speakers in your list and still I do not get the point that what you do not like about them.I do agree they over priced in some degree not the way that you think.BTW,did you count the shipping box,plastic foam and other stuff even if you do not want to see the other things that involved in finished product?If you go grocery shopping they might do not charge you for bag but you would pay for it no mater what unless you would like your fruit in your pocket so you can save money.How about speakers???Would you like to get a nice full-range driver in the back of UPS truck with no box?If no,then who has to pay for it?
I never pay attention to surround sound and I am not into movies.In this case I would never care if the processor is good,bad,free or $200K.I see you prefer full-range all the way which is that what you like and there is no problem with that but why any color,size or price three or two way would be a matter when you would never like them?

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #30 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 02:14 am »

I see no beautifull in these hi priced and multi-ways speakers, they are frankensteins monsters with one driver from each brand, too complex, no more permit DIY by anyone, every model had a secret receip, no free plans.

A crossover open a door to a whole industry from loudspeakers, it is difficult to design and implement, it add too much price, a crossover consume amp energy to work and part of it is loss as heat.
Nothing good came from a crossover.

medium jim · « **Reply #31 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 02:24 am »

This is not exclusive to speakers mind you. Take the much talked about hypex 400 that is around 1000.00 in DIY form, but the same class D amp in final product made for the end user is 6000.00+.

Take my Reissue VAC Marantz Model Nine's that retailed for 8400.00 in 1995 and the raw parts to assemble them were probably around 1200.00 to 2000.00 sans labor.

Do I feel cheated, hell no. But again, it was made in the USA and from mostly parts made in the same. If they were made in China or such, it would be a different story.

There was no R&D with respect to my amps just meticulous labor.

Jim

jackman · « **Reply #32 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 02:29 am »

Fullrangeman,

I deleted my original statement in which I explained that some people don't like full range drIvers because they aren't really full range. Not even close at moderate listening levels, but I changed my mind. I'm not going down that road because it serves no purpose (other than to start a meaningless argument).

More importantly, and I mean this with no offense, did you smoke a bunch of weed and decide to post this stuff just to rile people up? Tell the truth. Are you just high and messing with us?

kingdeezie · « **Reply #33 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 02:35 am »

Quote from: FULLRANGEMAN on 23 Jul 2012, 02:14 am

I see no beautifull in these hi priced and multi-ways speakers, they are frankensteins monsters with one driver from each brand, too complex, no more permit DIY by anyone, every model had a secret receip, no free plans.

A crossover open a door to a whole industry from loudspeakers, it is difficult to design and implement, it add too much price, a crossover consume amp energy to work and part of it is loss as heat.
Nothing good came from a crossover.

So which is it? First you say that crossovers are old technology, and there is no research and development cost, than you say that crossovers are hard to design and implement which assumes research and development cost to nail down the proper crossover....

.

thunderbrick · « **Reply #34 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 02:37 am »

Aside from BOSE SUCKS!, there is no truth in this hobby. Remember "Perfect Sound Forever?"

"The Truth About............" is a phrase best left for supermarket tabloid covers. My truth/system/opinions are specific to me and the synergy of my listening experiences.

Ergo, this thread is kinda irrelevant.

cujobob · « **Reply #35 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 02:38 am »

The only thing I want to say is that if a company really used the logic that they were offering more value than competitors because they gave their proprietary drivers ridiculous MSRP, that company should kill itself.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #36 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 02:51 am »

Putz, sorry bro, I think you guys would like to know these scandal prices, I do not wish cheat anyone.
Of course there is know that many FR drivers had short treble or short bass, some are better others so, they are what they are, sometimes strong highs etc but they are musical drivers, it worth the issues and they cost not a arm.

I see that you guys give great value to US products, it is indiferent to me, it can be made in USA, French, Germany, or China, I look the price and the quality.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #37 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 02:55 am »

Quote from: kingdeezie on 23 Jul 2012, 02:35 am

So which is it? First you say that crossovers are old technology, and there is no research and development cost, than you say that crossovers are hard to design and implement which assumes research and development cost to nail down the proper crossover....

.

The RD cost may be low to these famous brands, but it is hard to me or a DIYer to made a proper xover.

srb · « **Reply #38 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 03:10 am »

So what's this topic about? Is it that mega price loudspeakers have less driver percentage costs than less expensive speakers?. Or that full-range speakers are better than two or three-way speakers with crossovers and their inherent problems?

Well guess what? Many of us multi-way speaker owners have also owned full-range speakers and find, due to the irrefutable laws of physics, that they just don't cut it for us. I have auditioned Fostex, Jordan and Lowther-based speakers and have owned a pair of CSS-FR125 speakers. They were lacking both highs and lows for me and in the end I get more musical enjoyment out of my two-ways with their power-robbing crossovers. That's all that matters to me.

I only know of one personal acquaintance who prefers full-range speakers, but his hearing was tested and he could only hear out to about 9KHz. My hearing goes out to about 16KHz.

Even Zu has know for a long time that those "full-range" drivers really need a tweeter for full-range performance to be enjoyed by the majority of people. Perhaps a full-range transducer will be developed in the future that is truly full-range and requires no "helper" drivers on the bottom or top end, but I haven't heard it yet.

But I won't deny the enjoyment anyone else gets from them, nor in the end do I give a flying fudge what kind of loudspeaker design they like.

In the meantime, I think FRM should chuck his Fostex and DIY cabinet and get the full-range Voxativ Ampeggio by Schimmel Piano ($29,750).

Steve

SGA · « **Reply #39 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 03:23 am »

I suspect fullrangespeaker guy either:

a) Has never heard anyone's setup than his own, or
b) Has hearing damage due to over driven full range speakers.