[skunark]

I'm with Marius, if you an you toss up some jitter measurements comparing various USB cables and how the impact either the SPDIF or i2s streams that would be insightful.  I have yet seen a review where such a thing has happened. 

BTW, what's on that page that you consider BS when compared to the USB specification?    The article provides a light, but reasonable description of bulk and isochronous transfers that line up with the USB spec, so they do indicate there is some cause for concern with cables.  They quickly disprove that by showing no detectable transfer errors with either cable and the reader now knows the data will arrive safely for any good cable. They even provide the user with a method to test errors on their system.  As I mentioned earlier they didn't provide any jitter measurements, both sad and typical for any audiophile magazine.   What I find alarming are the manufactures that claim improved sound by reducing jitter or increasing reliability, both of which would real easy to test, the price tag attached to those unproven claims. 

The article doesn't discuss synchronous, adaptive vs asynchronous USB DACs, and their effect on clock regeneration, but it did seem like they were attempting to head down that path, they briefly discuss it here http://www.alpha-audio.nl/2011/06/de-usb-kabelmythe/.  On a side note, both articles do a reasonable decent job dissecting the Tentdac b-Dac while explaining some of the USB audio jargon.

Continuing the side note, the Tentdac b-Dac uses a few mature chips that date around '03 and updated in '06 in the design: PCM2702 which is an adaptive USB to I2S/SPDIF converter and DAC (PCM1792) if one wanted to read the data sheets at Ti.com.  If any USB cable would shine over another seems like the b-DAC would fit the bill with the 48/24 max USB port.   Of course the B-Dac's linear power supply and with it's extra detail on retiming the PCM stream from both USB and SPDIF inputs make it a solid Dac. 

I do think most USB Audio fan's would discount the USB port on this product since it's limited to 48/24 playback.  If you like to mod hardware, this DAC is rather interesting, you can ask for different output stages and even the clock used to time the i2s signal on either a 44.1 or 48 kHz multiplier.   

Jim

[Anonamemouse]

Look at the title of the article...Clearly, this asshole has no clue what he is talking about. The differences in USB cables is huge and even more than any other cable. The complexities of USB cable design are mind boggling and the USB standards body has only scratched the surface, barely!

Not upset...Our Dutch myth buster just touched a nerve with no real information just bullshit opinion to expound some stupid agenda.

Actually, this asshole does know what he is talking about. He is quite a reputable and very experienced reviewer. And, BIG PLUS in my book, if something IS bullshit, he will tell his readers it IS bullshit. And not go all gaga over it just because he needs to stay friends with someone asking a ridiculous amount of money for some wire with plugs on both ends.

You sell the stuff, I understand you get annoyed when someone tells you that what you sell is not worth the money.

Come up with conclusive measurements (independent ones, not done by yourself) and we'll talk again...

[jaapnr1]

Actually, this asshole does know what he is talking about. He is quite a reputable and very experienced reviewer. And, BIG PLUS in my book, if something IS bullshit, he will tell his readers it IS bullshit. And not go all gaga over it just because he needs to stay friends with someone asking a ridiculous amount of money for some wire with plugs on both ends.

The asshole here.  . I noticed some traffic in my logs and came here.
The reason I can write what I want is that this website is purely out of passion for hifi. I have no obligations to importers / retailers. Some distributers / importers like my style. Even if I have my reservations towards the product.

I know my stuff concerning usb-audio. My 40-hour job is in the computer business (I write for Personal Computer Magazine as a technical editor). So I am amazed by the bullshit surrounding usb-audio. Less jitter because of better usb-cables? Come on... it's purely data that is transported. The 1000 Hz clocking signal is purely for the data transport... it has NOTHING to do with the pcm of i2s-signal that goes to the dac. And if you have a decent usb-dac it had a decent clock that is used for the internal digital audio stream.

The Tentlabs b-DAC I use is an adaptive usb-dac. But Tentlabs uses a seperate clocking print to reclock every digital input, including the usb-stream. Because of that the dac is pretty immune to jitter. I head absolutely no difference in cables (I tested blind and normal). Besides the listening-test I used a package-analyzer to see what was going on in the data-stream. NO DIFFERENCE between a 300 euro Audioquest Coffee and a 5 euro normal cable...

You sell the stuff, I understand you get annoyed when someone tells you that what you sell is not worth the money.

Come up with conclusive measurements (independent ones, not done by yourself) and we'll talk again...

I can totaly understand that I am anoying to retailers. But I rather write the truth than pray nonsense on the internet. I will write a story about 'audiophile' CAT-7 cables soon. I'm predicting it will be the same conclusion as usb... 

[James Tanner]

Very informative discussion folks

james

[werd]

Wow

i guess there needs to be a refresher course here. I'll get to the crust of it.

EVERYTHING YOU DO INFRONT OF YOUR AMP GETS AMPLIFIED. The only qualifier being your system is sensitive enough to hear changes in your front end. An all Bryston system will let you do that. This includes usb cabling from your hdd to a bdp or any other compiler of data. It doesnt matter, if the final outcome is for that data to be amplified all things will make a difference including usb cabling.

The problem here is there are too many people trying to technify the hobby with dogma that should play second fiddle to the most important part. That part being just sitting down infront of your system engaging the sweet spot and listening.

From what i've read above very few do that and have a problem posting their tone deaf posts. Except for the Wywires of course (grandmaster of cabling)  . 

[trackball02]

Werd, I totally agree, listening is the key. jaapnr1 stated that he did a blind listening test and found no difference.

Does anyone know of any additional published data that also included a blind test of various USB cables? I'm still trying to justify why I should upgrade my USB cable and purchase a cost effective replacement based on objective information.

[werd]

Werd, I totally agree, listening is the key. jaapnr1 stated that he did a blind listening test and found no difference.

Does anyone know of any additional published data that also included a blind test of various USB cables? I'm still trying to justify why I should upgrade my USB cable and purchase a cost effective replacement based on objective information.

Ok, if he did not hear a difference ( i am assuming that he's completely familiar with the sound of his gear) then its safe to say that there is a piece in his system that is snuffing out any meaningful changes in his front end. Its that simple folks. If you are into this hobby and engage the sweet spot a big indicator of the resolution of your system is hearing your front end. You hear your front end by changing out gear and making meaningful front end adjustments like cabling, platforms or dacs or even usb cable (noise issues)  into a soundcard.

If you can't hear changes in usb cabling its not the fault of the cable manufacture but the fault of your own. To me it appears to be one of two possible faults. The first fault is you don't want to listen to your system or you don't know how. The second fault is a major piece like a preamp is snuffing out any meaningful changes in the front end. Both of these faults are not a cable manufacturing conspiracy at work, but a fault of the listeners own attitude perhaps.

[saisunil]

Well said werd ....

If you hear the difference - good for you and your listening sessions 
If you don;t hear the difference - good for you and your pocket 

[jaapnr1]

Ok, if he did not hear a difference ( i am assuming that he's completely familiar with the sound of his gear) then its safe to say that there is a piece in his system that is snuffing out any meaningful changes in his front end. Its that simple folks. If you are into this hobby and engage the sweet spot a big indicator of the resolution of your system is hearing your front end. You hear your front end by changing out gear and making meaningful front end adjustments like cabling, platforms or dacs or even usb cable (noise issues)  into a soundcard.

If you can't hear changes in usb cabling its not the fault of the cable manufacture but the fault of your own. To me it appears to be one of two possible faults. The first fault is you don't want to listen to your system or you don't know how. The second fault is a major piece like a preamp is snuffing out any meaningful changes in the front end. Both of these faults are not a cable manufacturing conspiracy at work, but a fault of the listeners own attitude perhaps.

I totally agree that listening is the most important key element. That's why I always listen carefully if I test a component. Including cables. I am convinced that cables can make a difference. That's why I use decent interlinks, loudspeaker cables and digital interlink (spdif). BUT the signal that goes through usb-cables or cat-cable has absolutely nothing to do with music. IT'S RAW DATA... people just listen, please... as a companion music lover / hifi gear lover... usb cables don't make a difference. If they do make a difference, you should hear clicks, pops or drop outs. It's that simple. There can't  be a difference in clear hights, lows, vocals or imaging. If something goed wrong in de data transport, it's a package lost, so... NO DATA.

If you want to know what I'm listening to:

Pass Labs X2.5 pre amp
Van Medevoort PA333 mono power amps (modified with silver cabling)
Tentlabs b-DAC (spdif, XLR, USB digital inputs)
Lentus Audio Duo loudspeakers
Art Speak Interlinks
Seperate audio power group, dual: analogue / digital seperated.
Some filtering
Custom home theatre pc for streaming (seperate power group)

http://www.alpha-audio.nl/systeem-jaap/

I guess I can hear some differences quiete well with this gear. 

[jaapnr1]

Well said werd ....

If you hear the difference - good for you and your listening sessions 
If you don;t hear the difference - good for you and your pocket 

That's also a good point of view... 

[werd]

Well said werd ....

If you hear the difference - good for you and your listening sessions 
If you don;t hear the difference - good for you and your pocket 

Hehe

i am not going to argue with that.

[wywires]

We also have not been informed of the system that our Dutch friend used to perform his listening tests. Nor do we know what program material was used and in what resolution format. I agree that his description of the USB protocols is 100% correct and that data transfer over USB is what it is regardless of the cable used. The effects of jitter and other artifacts related to a cable's LCR performance over a high bandwidth should not be ignored and have a significant impact on sonic performance. Can this be easily demonstrated and correlated to what we hear? No! The USB 2.0 requirement for cables is well known. This requirement makes no mention of the type of wire or dielectric required other than gauge depending on length as long as characteristic impedance is 90Ohms.

[Marius]

Hi Werd,

Maybe we could stay away from pointing to 'faults' who ever we assume they belong to, but it seems to me you turn the discussion upside down. Shouldn't it be possible or even necessary, and certainly wise for cable manufacturers  to prove positively that cable A makes a measurable difference to cable B, and qualify And quantify that difference accompanying that statement?

Instead of assuming they do without any evidence what so ever, other than some generic theory of " everything gets amplified, including the usb-cable, and therefor claiming that is the absolute truth. And the people that question the theory cable A does not make a difference to B, have to prove otherwise, or, if they don't, are qualified as faulty-listeners that don't know their system or don't know how? Please. Rather presumptuous I should say. And beside the manufacturers  own point of interest, which is convincing people to buy those very expensive cables in the first place 

I would be very interested if any of those manufacturers could do so.

Marius

Ok, if he did not hear a difference ( i am assuming that he's completely familiar with the sound of his gear) then its safe to say that there is a piece in his system that is snuffing out any meaningful changes in his front end. Its that simple folks. If you are into this hobby and engage the sweet spot a big indicator of the resolution of your system is hearing your front end. You hear your front end by changing out gear and making meaningful front end adjustments like cabling, platforms or dacs or even usb cable (noise issues)  into a soundcard.

If you can't hear changes in usb cabling its not the fault of the cable manufacture but the fault of your own. To me it appears to be one of two possible faults. The first fault is you don't want to listen to your system or you don't know how. The second fault is a major piece like a preamp is snuffing out any meaningful changes in the front end. Both of these faults are not a cable manufacturing conspiracy at work, but a fault of the listeners own attitude perhaps.

[werd]

Hi Werd,

Maybe we could stay away from pointing to 'faults' who ever we assume they belong to, but it seems to me you turn the discussion upside down. Shouldn't it be possible or even necessary, and certainly wise for cable manufacturers  to prove positively that cable A makes a measurable difference to cable B, and qualify And quantify that difference accompanying that statement?

Instead of assuming they do without any evidence what so ever, other than some generic theory of " everything gets amplified, including the usb-cable, and therefor claiming that is the absolute truth. And the people that question that theory cable A does not make a difference to B, have to prove otherwise, or, if they don't, are qualified as faulty-listeners that don't know their system or don't know how? Please. Rather presumptuous I should say. And besides the manufacturers  own point of interest, which is convincing people to buy those very expensive cables in the first place 

I would be very interested if any of those manufacturers could do so.

Marius

Marius

The evidence is months and years of the same babbling posts of how everything sounds the same in cabling.  The premise of these posts are to beat their electrical engineering chests. Its such an old theme on this board. The main motive that should be observed is hearing first. They absolutely refuse to do that and i can tell by their revolving negative attitude of spending to much on high end audio, inc. cables. The final outcome is what you hear and not what some computer tells you have heard...

[Diamond Dog]

I'm coming back to this thread this evening and I expect you guys to have "the cable issue" in all it's forms resolved once and for all by the time I get back...Don't let me down, guys.

D.D.

[werd]

I'm coming back to this thread this evening and I expect you guys to have "the cable issue" in all it's forms resolved once and for all by the time I get back...Don't let me down, guys.

D.D.

Refresher courses are awesome.......   

[jaapnr1]

Marius

The evidence is months and years of the same babbling posts of how everything sounds the same in cabling.  The premise of these posts are to beat their electrical engineering chests. Its such an old theme on this board. The main motive that should be observed is hearing first. They absolutely refuse to do that and i can tell by their revolving negative attitude of spending to much on high end audio, inc. cables. The final outcome is what you hear and not what some computer tells you have heard...

It's a shame that my posts do not get online before approval.... That way I cannot reply that fast...

Anyway: I do not agree with you. Measuring is a way of proving differences. Analogue cables can be measured. It's shielding, capacitance, resistance, etc. All factors that influence an analogue signal. Easy. Digital spdif-cables can be measured in quite the same way. It's a signal that can be influenced, so jitter is intruduced. In a way an spdif-signal is a divident (is that the right word?) of an analogue music signal... so cabling is crucial...

With usb it's very different. It's data packages that get transported. Just like with network-cables or wifi. Do you also believe that a cat-5 cable sounds inferior to cat-7? Or that a wifi-router with a big antenna sounds different than a router with a small antenna? Because thats what we are talking about... it's in some sense the same...

[JfTM]

Wow

i guess there needs to be a refresher course here. I'll get to the crust of it.

EVERYTHING YOU DO INFRONT OF YOUR AMP GETS AMPLIFIED. The only qualifier being your system is sensitive enough to hear changes in your front end. An all Bryston system will let you do that. This includes usb cabling from your hdd to a bdp or any other compiler of data. It doesnt matter, if the final outcome is for that data to be amplified all things will make a difference including usb cabling.

The problem here is there are too many people trying to technify the hobby with dogma that should play second fiddle to the most important part. That part being just sitting down infront of your system engaging the sweet spot and listening.

From what i've read above very few do that and have a problem posting their tone deaf posts. Except for the Wywires of course (grandmaster of cabling)  .

Except in the link I referenced the manufacturer specifically stated that their wire made differences that should be measurable (better waveform, less jitter) with no supporting documentation.

[Admin2]

This is heading down the road almost all cable threads go. . .

Please stop the pissing contest, bickering back and forth, etc. or this thread will be removed.

[werd]

It's a shame that my posts do not get online before approval.... That way I cannot reply that fast...

Anyway: I do not agree with you. Measuring is a way of proving differences. Analogue cables can be measured. It's shielding, capacitance, resistance, etc. All factors that influence an analogue signal. Easy. Digital spdif-cables can be measured in quite the same way. It's a signal that can be influenced, so jitter is intruduced. In a way an spdif-signal is a divident (is that the right word?) of an analogue music signal... so cabling is crucial...

With usb it's very different. It's data packages that get transported. Just like with network-cables or wifi. Do you also believe that a cat-5 cable sounds inferior to cat-7? Or that a wifi-router with a big antenna sounds different than a router with a small antenna? Because thats what we are talking about... it's in some sense the same...

I am referring to measuring as a method of dis-proving diffences as a constant nagging theme. Unlike what you are saying here.

I found the best thing  the bdp taught me was the whole notion of the "Starting Gate component in digital playback" The bdp when used with a usb sticks is an excellent eg. of an actually point where playback begins. If you use a HDD into the bdp the HDD has now become the starting gate. Only because now you have to deal with noise coming off the HDD through the AC and in the air. This is where i found improvements with usb cabling. I went from a lousy 3 dollar usb to a relatively inexpensive wireworld usb (under a $100.00) that actually cleaned up some very nagging noise between my 500gb Hd and my bdp.

The bdp is pure a luxury item in file playback for that reason. It really makes file playback easy and you are not going to get any better with any HDD then just a straight usb stick. I don't want a build a noiseless file delivery system with a huge HDD. It can be done but for me i don't see the point.