has anyone ever heard one of these before?

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SoCalWJS

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #20 on: 7 Jun 2012, 10:29 pm »
So this is the Danley SH50 being discussed?

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/SH%2050%20Spec%20Sheet.PDF

Sounds like a very high efficiency horn -I would imagine that they are incredibly dynamic (like all Danley products). I was glancing through the specs and noticed +/- 3dB from 50 Hz-18kHz and -10dB at 37 Hz.

You would definitely need subs with those speakers.

I freely admit I'm not a fan of horns though. I have never heard ones that didn't have that unique horn sound at some frequency, and it's a sound that I don't care for. Just my opinion. :)

Danny Richie

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #21 on: 7 Jun 2012, 10:54 pm »
I have to admit I am not a big horn fan either.

Looks like they have about an 8db swing in the lower mid-range. I am not sure how that passes their +/-3db specs. It also looks like some cancellation in the throat of that horn at 20kHz. It is down about 20db at 20kHz.

And I wonder how noisy those large un-braced panels are on that box? I hate to jump to conclusions  :D but I'd guess pretty noisy. 

jtwrace

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #22 on: 7 Jun 2012, 11:50 pm »
And I wonder how noisy those large un-braced panels are on that box? I hate to jump to conclusions  :D but I'd guess pretty noisy.

I know how I measure it but how do you?

Danny Richie

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #23 on: 7 Jun 2012, 11:54 pm »
I know how I measure it but how do you?

I can put an accelerometer to the side of it.

It is pretty easy to feel and hear flexing of panels though.

jtwrace

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #24 on: 7 Jun 2012, 11:57 pm »
I can put an accelerometer to the side of it.

It is pretty easy to feel and hear flexing of panels though.
Do you? 

Danny Richie

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #25 on: 8 Jun 2012, 12:31 am »

jtwrace

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #26 on: 8 Jun 2012, 12:32 am »
Do I what?
Log accelerometer data on your cabinets?

Danny Richie

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #27 on: 8 Jun 2012, 12:37 am »
Log accelerometer data on your cabinets?

I have one and I have used it. I need to get the pre-amp gain adjusted on it so I can get more useful data from it. Right now it is REALLY sensitive.

jtwrace

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #28 on: 8 Jun 2012, 12:45 am »
I have one and I have used it. I need to get the pre-amp gain adjusted on it so I can get more useful data from it. Right now it is REALLY sensitive.
Pre amp gain?  You mean amp gain?  What do you need?  I might be able to help depending on what it is.  What do you use to log the data with?

Danny Richie

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #29 on: 8 Jun 2012, 12:59 am »
Pre amp gain?  You mean amp gain?  What do you need?  I might be able to help depending on what it is.  What do you use to log the data with?

It has it's own little pre-amp just like some mics do. I use my Clio system for the measurements.

paulspencer

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #30 on: 8 Jun 2012, 07:19 am »
I noticed some traffic to my blog from this thread, so it got me curious ...

I have heard the original Unity kit, which was a 60 x 60 passive 2 way with a crossover using parts costing about as much as many DIY projects! It was very strange at the time listening to midrange coming from such a big speaker. Initially I thought the imaging was not very good, however, at another time I actually shut my eyes, my usual way of listening to music and it was then that I realised they could indeed image very well. I've also heard the Yorkville Unity and measured the two Synergy horns that I've designed for my own system. It takes quite some time to grasp even that basic gist of what is going on, and how all the parts interact. It also takes a bit of time to adjust to the sound. Sure, you might have an initial impression, but a speaker that is so different sometimes takes a bit of adjustment.

Subjectively, there is a great deal of midrange detail. It has an uncanny ability to reveal low level midrange detail that tends to get buried in the mix. It can handle very complex music that might normally turn into a mess, and yet it's incredibly resolving. You can demo it to someone who isn't an enthusiast or a discerning listener at all, after one track they will point out all the extra detail. A house mate who was used to hearing all my previous speakers, noticed the detail right away. Many have likened Synergy horns to headphones in this regard. I suspect it may be related to the way sound radiates into the room. The last one that I built maintained a 90 degree dispersion all the way down to 280 Hz.

So one of the first things you notice is a certain dryness to the sound - it is the absence of all the room reflections, even for someone like me who was previously listening to speakers that already have controlled dispersion - similar to Geddes speakers.

You also notice startling dynamics and there is no real limit to their output at home. They keep their cool at all levels.

Being a point source they are very coherent. You can listen at point blank range, with your head in the mouth of the horn, and all the sound appears to come from an area the size of a tennis ball. Only a fullranger can do that.

They aren't designed for home use, the Danley versions. They are intended for pro sound use where there is benefit to putting bass drivers in the horn so you can get some more extension. They aren't horn loaded below about 200 Hz, so they run as direct radiators below that point. The point is to maintain a point source and avoid acoustic interference in large venues where you might fly the speakers and in many situations want to get as much bass as you can out of them. Danley aim to make them cost effective, so obviously they are cutting some corners in using iron core inductors for bass. They are chosen for large installs worth mega bucks after being compared to more familiar alternatives like JBL, QSC, all the big names. They also do it passive to keep things simple. Danley has shown nice performance with square waves, but it's been a while since I've seen it, so it's buried somewhere online. That is WITH a passive crossover, no DSP to cheat!

For home use some different decisions make more sense. I prefer an active version with 60 x 80 dispersion, which is a 2 way that sits on top of a sealed woofer with a pair of Rythmik servo subs in a tapped horn below 40 Hz. Putting woofers in the horn isn't cost effective for home use, because you end up using cheaper woofers to make up for using 4 of them. I'd rather have 2 really good ones. I use a digital active crossover and so that does make things easier.

Anyone who wants to start to understand it - I suggest you have a look at the patent, because it explains quite a few things.

Along the axis of the horn, the ports are placed 1/4 wavelength away from the apex at the intended crossover point, placing a cancellation notch above the crossover, caused by the reflection back from the throat. The area under the cone in conjunction with the port acts as a bandpass chamber, applying acoustic filtering. So you typically see the midrange drop off by 30 db, resulting in a 30 db reduction in harmonic distortion components that fall above the acoustic filter. The original Unity kit has ultra low distortion, more akin to an amplifier than a speaker, and this remained true at high levels. Some like Geddes might write this off as useless, but when it comes to distortion, I'm thinking less is more! Further, higher order distortion products would be reduced even more. The compression driver of course acts as it would in another other design, since it would always be horn loaded. What is clever in the Synergy is that you can actually design the horn as a waveguide, giving it a smooth transition more like an oblate spheroidal waveguide, or a JBL progressive transition. Yet the mids are horn loaded - the offset actually causes a conical horn to have better loading than driving from the apex.

It is not without some irony, that the Synergy horn is criticised for not doing something that is actually one of the primary strengths, where it is uniquely superior to most alternatives. There are three things that work together to this end:

1. Offset of the mids towards the mouth
2. Acoustic chamber
3. Crossover

I have not yet designed a passive crossover for a Synergy horn, but I have seen a square wave measurement from Danley indicating it is doing well in this regard.

Now if you consider that the midrange and tweeter outputs are all correctly time aligned, yet differently loaded due to the port offsets, now you have a coherent point source. Now Danley adds woofers in the same way to continue this point source down into the bass, and the woofers are then working as 6th order bandpass with a tiny amount of loading above 200 Hz, perhaps 200 - 400 Hz.

Now for some measurements:

This is the Yorkvile, measured outdoors elevated up on my directivity measurement rig:



You can see some narrowing before patten control is lost, because Yorkville did not flare out the mouth enough to counter beaming.

Now this is my first attempt, very much like the old Unity kit:



The bigger mouth maintains pattern control down to about 700 Hz.

Now this is another version, I call it S1:



It has wider dispersion (90 vs 60) and a big mouth so the two result in taking pattern control really low, it goes off the chart!

This is the measurement rig, with angle markings on the nice piece of redgum turned up on the lathe.



The sound of a Synergy horn is quite unique. It has aspects similar to a Martin Logan Electrostatic, but a very different room interaction. The image is more tightly focused than a dipole speaker. You don't get quite the same depth of an omni or dipole, but I find that depth, whilst enjoyable in many cases, can also cause vocals to be artificially stretched. Hence I'm not keen on what dipoles do to dialogue on a movie. The sweet spot is very wide if you use correct toe in, which for a constant directivity speaker is quite a generous toe in much more than anyone would choose in many cases.

If I could complain about anything, it would be that you don't tend to get the same sense of air that you can get with more exotic tweeters like ribbons and AMTs. However, I find the Synergy more natural overall.

To anyone who gets a chance to hear one - go for it! I'd be very surprised if you have heard anything similar.

Unfortunately it might not be a good idea for people to get too excited about Synergy horns. WAF is low unless you can do this ...



Yes, those black grilles hide Unity horns with an array of Peerless subs. I've heard a couple of people who heard that system describe it as the best they had heard.

For the lazy people who won't go and search for the patent, here it is:

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/fetch.jsp?LANG=ENG&DBSELECT=PCT&SERVER_TYPE=19-10&SORT=41270106-KEY&TYPE_FIELD=256&IDB=0&IDOC=1468907&C=10&ELEMENT_SET=B&RESULT=2&TOTAL=5&START=1&DISP=25&FORM=SEP-0/HITNUM,B-ENG,DP,MC,AN,PA,ABSUM-ENG&SEARCH_IA=US2006022032&QUERY=%28IN%2fdanley+AND+IN%2fthomas%29

So what do I like about the Synergy horn:

* dynamic, loud, clean
* all the benefits of horns without their obnoxious problems
* image focus, large sound stage and wide sweet spot
* incredible midrange detail
* interesting and challenging to design and build
* room interaction
* works well in small rooms
* suited to installation studio style

One more thing about the crossover. It doesn't use textbook filters!

One thing that Danley hasn't done, which I think is needed for home use, is to fill the horn with reticulated foam that Geddes uses.

paulspencer

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #31 on: 8 Jun 2012, 08:38 am »


You can see choices there obviously related to economy. Ferrite cored inductors on the bass - I hate to see them on some nice B&C woofers! Looks like possibly even some MDF on the mouth flare. Also Ferrite magnet drivers which are going to be quite heavy.

Interesting. The performance advantages listed are intriguing, and note " when arrayed..."

I'd love to hear these with some really clean tubes.



I haven't got to hear this type of speaker before, but want to now. Super cool, johnzm.  :thumb:

Have fun,

Jerry

Apparently they are better suited to arraying than most, but where the output of one box is not enough, Danley recommends his other designs such as the Genesis and Jerico horns. Those are also based around the point source horn concept.

More food for thought:

Danley:

Quote

In the Synergy horns, the sources combine into one single horn radiation and in say the SH-50, the polar pattern has NO lobes and nulls even at / through crossovers and the sources combine tightly enough to reproduce a square wave from very good to fair, continuously over a decade wide bandwidth and not dependent on a specific location (other than in the pattern).     

Most hifi speakers cannot reproduce a square wave over a wide band, or in any position; no commercial sound speakers I know of can do that especially with a passive crossover.     A side effect is that two SH-50’s (or our other acoustically array-able boxes) can actually be placed and used side by side (hard packed) with no audible seam between boxes.

Now I managed to find some square waves ...

Here is the thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/71824-making-square-waves.html#post817215

250 Hz ... I believe this is a SH50


1k


2.5k


The best square wave that I have seen by far, was with an ordinary speaker corrected with DSP (Bodzio Ultimate Eq). It's here:
http://www.bodziosoftware.com.au/Square_Wave.pdf

It starts out as nothing like a square wave. The software is able to dial in an ideal phase and group delay response, so it isn't your average digital crossover like say a Behringer DCX or MiniDSP.

Quote
Now the tweeter in this Danley designed horn looks like it is about 6 inches back from the mids. You say it is 1/4 wave off (mids to the throat). Okay that would be about 4" back from the mids if the crossover point is at 1kHz. That's 90 degrees of phase rotation at 1kHz or half way from being out of phase. However, it is stated to be linear-phase / time coherent. Really? So pardon me for jumping to an obvious conclusion. Maybe you can explain how that monstrosity of a crossover is going to compensate for all of that physical driver offset.

You will find that the port offsets are more like 1/4 wavelength at 1 - 1.5k. Smaller mids are used for a higher crossover so they can go closer to the throat. It's quite a bit of work to get it all working together. With a 5" mid you can get them close enough for 1k. To get to around 1.2 - 1.5 you need a 4" mid. 4 - 6" mids are typically used.

If you go to the Danley website you can also see the phase response of the speakers.

I haven't looked very closely at that crossover, but I see both poly and electro caps. I would guess that electros are in there for less important functions. For a Zobel filter, I'm thinking we can excuse electros. We know that over time the value will change, however, since we aren't relying on it to the same degree as one responsible for the actual filtering, but instead it has a more indirect influence, then it's not going to have the same penalty. I usually use active crossovers, but if you have compared electros to poly caps in various parts in the crossover in controlled conditions, I'm interested to hear what you found.

I actually think they should just bi-amp them and take out inductors on the bass drivers. No need to cut costs with ferrite inductors. However, Danley knows his customers and what they will accept. And I'm sure that some would bi-amp them in which case some inductors are taken out.

Regarding the acoustic centre of mids and tweeter - that is something that I will be investigating soon.

Danny,

If you have measurements of square waves I'd be interested to see them. It's not something that is often shown.

johnzm

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #32 on: 8 Jun 2012, 02:38 pm »
for anyone else who does not see the square waves, just login to DIYaudio and then refresh this page and the pictures will come up :)

This is honestly the first time I've heard the idea of a square wave (and its mentioned multiple times actually) so I am wondering if it even is worth using as a tool, to represent how well a speaker sounds. Or is it possibly just one of those things that can look great on paper but have little or nothing to do with the actual sound quality of the speaker. 

Danny, have you any input on this square wave reproduction? and do you have any measurements from the N3 or Super V?


Danny Richie

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #33 on: 8 Jun 2012, 02:59 pm »
Quote
Danny, have you any input on this square wave reproduction? and do you have any measurements from the N3 or Super V?

Fellows, I haven't seen anyone use an oscyliscope on a speaker in 20 years.

dwk

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #34 on: 8 Jun 2012, 03:21 pm »
Fellows, I haven't seen anyone use an oscyliscope on a speaker in 20 years.

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: typical.  Can't criticize the result, so criticize the tool.

johnzm -  If you're interested in the Synergy concept there are probably better places to discuss them and learn about the underlying mechanisms.  Danny has clearly illustrated that he neither understands them, nor considers their design goals particularly relevant.  You seem to be hanging on his 'approval' as a means of evaluating them, which seems like a rather odd way to go about things.

There is a valid point to be made that these are PA speakers designed and executed against goals that are appropriate for PA use. The fact that you can drop them unaltered into a home environment and get very good stereo/HT performance out of them is a bonus, but you'd have to listen to them yourself to know whether the compromises introduced for PA use are acceptable or not.
 Certainly the folks over at AVS that have them in their HT seem thrilled.

dwk

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #35 on: 8 Jun 2012, 03:28 pm »


This is honestly the first time I've heard the idea of a square wave (and its mentioned multiple times actually) so I am wondering if it even is worth using as a tool, to represent how well a speaker sounds. Or is it possibly just one of those things that can look great on paper but have little or nothing to do with the actual sound quality of the speaker. 


The square wave test is just a visible representation of the phase-coherent nature of a particular design. The degree to which this is audible by itself is hotly debated. Some like Linkwitz claim that the ear is virtually insensitive to phase coherence of this sort. Other anecdotal experience suggests that there is an audible improvement in coherence and intelligibility.
 Much of the problem stems from the fact that until DSP came about it was impossible to create designs that only differed in their phase performance, and so a true A-B comparison wasn't possible.

It's fairly clear that phase performance is not a make-or-break characteristic since there are many great sounding speakers that aren't phase coherent. The question is whether it's a refinement that elevates an already good speaker even further.

johnzm

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #36 on: 8 Jun 2012, 03:46 pm »
DWK,

please understand I enjoy Danny's designs to a large degree. Horn systems usually arent my cup of tea (even with their somewhat obvious strengths on paper).

I am not really looking for approval as much as opinions (or even facts proved by measurement), and some good conversation about them. I am far from knowledgeable in speaker design, so most of the points that are being made in this thread (from both sides) are just helping me to form an idea about what to expect when I get a chance to hear them.

I am looking around at a way to hear them, which should not be difficult since Danley headquarters is very close to me.

Also, I would like to point out that on AVS, they believe sand cast resistors and cheap caps sound as good as anything else, and that berhinger amps are of the same quality as something Gary dodd makes. So to sit in the AVS forums and listen to them talk about how inferior one speaker design is over another(or even how all RCA cables sound the same), sometimes gets tiring.

oldman45

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #37 on: 8 Jun 2012, 03:53 pm »
for anyone else who does not see the square waves, just login to DIYaudio and then refresh this page and the pictures will come up :)

This is honestly the first time I've heard the idea of a square wave (and its mentioned multiple times actually) so I am wondering if it even is worth using as a tool, to represent how well a speaker sounds. Or is it possibly just one of those things that can look great on paper but have little or nothing to do with the actual sound quality of the speaker. 

Danny, have you any input on this square wave reproduction? and do you have any measurements from the N3 or Super V?

At headphone.com, they post results of the squarewave tests that they do.  It's quite interesting to see that even the most expensive headphones have trouble producing a decent squarewave.  Even a flat frequency response, for that matter.  I am by no means an expert, but I remember Stereo Review (in the 70's annd 80's) analyzing their squarewave results.  In this photo, you can get an idea of the amount of ringing and the transient response that it has.  Whether ot not I could hear it would be a different matter.





http://www.headphone.com/headphones/sennheiser-hd-800.php



« Last Edit: 8 Jun 2012, 05:41 pm by oldman45 »

Danny Richie

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #38 on: 8 Jun 2012, 04:54 pm »
Quote
    typical.  Can't criticize the result, so criticize the tool.

I am not criticizing it at all. I am being honest.

When I visited the Dunlavy facility, about 14 years ago, he still had one on a table full of old test equipment. As I watched his employees go through a whole range of measurements I never saw it used though.

Quote
Danny has clearly illustrated that he neither understands them, nor considers their design goals particularly relevant.

None of what you just said it true. And I consider their design to have good merit and could well be ideal for the application that they are designed for. A high end audio application in a home environment though? I don't see it.

Quote
There is a valid point to be made that these are PA speakers designed and executed against goals that are appropriate for PA use.

I agree.

Quote
The degree to which this is audible by itself is hotly debated. Some like Linkwitz claim that the ear is virtually insensitive to phase coherence of this sort. Other anecdotal experience suggests that there is an audible improvement in coherence and intelligibility.

How slight of a shift in phase is really audible is certainly debatable. I have to agree with Linkwitz and many others when one considers listening in a home environment. The total in room response consists of many time delayed artifacts that are secondary reflections, and even reflections that are third and fourth reflections. Even a speaker with a controlled dispersion is not at all immune to these room related effects. This often greatly overrides any slight improvement in on axis phase relationships.

And I have worked with and on speakers that are designed to be time and phase coherent. 

Here is one of them: http://gr-research.com/spicatc-50upgrade.aspx



But when it came to all the things that was suppose to be better with a speaker having a near perfect step response, it just wasn't there. My A/V-1 speaker by comparison (side by side A/B comparison) killed it in sound stage and imagining.



Quote
It's fairly clear that phase performance is not a make-or-break characteristic since there are many great sounding speakers that aren't phase coherent. The question is whether it's a refinement that elevates an already good speaker even further.

This is true. All most all of the best speakers I can think of are not phase coherent. In fact I am having trouble thinking of a really good speaker that is. So far I have not seen having a speaker that is time and phase coherent to present an advantage. If you were outdoors (no room reflections) and in a fixed sweet spot then maybe so. Place the speakers in a room and forget it.

And you guys can talk about these here all you want in regards to their design in any way. So long as they are not actively trying to be sold here then I don't mind at all.

Quote
Also, I would like to point out that on AVS, they believe sand cast resistors and cheap caps sound as good as anything else, and that berhinger amps are of the same quality as something Gary dodd makes. So to sit in the AVS forums and listen to them talk about how inferior one speaker design is over another(or even how all RCA cables sound the same), sometimes gets tiring.

Good grief. Let's not get started with those guys. I feel sorry for them. I really do. Some people just won't come out of the cave to see the light.

LarryB

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #39 on: 8 Jun 2012, 06:04 pm »
Just a few general comments on horns.

Although every one and his brother-in-law raves about the dynamics of whatever speaker they happen to own, the truth is that most speakers have crappy dynamics.  In contrast, horns have life-like dynamics that, in my opinion, are more important than most of the “audiophile qualities” that preoccupy most audiophiles, and audiophile publications.  In fact, as I said in an essay I wrote a few years ago, it is my belief that audiophiles obsess over imaging and soundstaging in large part because their speakers are so deficient in dynamics, which are an essential part of music.

It is certainly the case that many horns - particularly older models - suffered from serious colorations.  However, the past ten or so years have seen dramatic advances in horns, the result not just of better materials, but also of a far better understanding of horn theory (and the underlying mathematics).  For those who are interested, I strongly recommend reading the works of Drs. Bruce Edgar and Earl Geddes.

I personally own speakers with a conical horn designed by Bill Woods of AH! Horns.  I have had many very experienced listeners over to hear them, and without exception (and despite many prejudices and preconceived notions), everyone has agreed they are essentially devoid of “honk.”

Other superb horns are those from Acapella, amongst others.

I should add that a high-quality compression driver in a properly designed horn can provide midrange clarity that is far better than many (if not most) speakers on the market.

Least I be misunderstood, I don’t believe that all horns are good, nor do I believe that the only good speakers are horns.  As I’ve written on numerous occasions, there are new speakers on the market that have taken the art of speaker design to places we could not have dreamt of as recently as a decade ago.  This is a result of amazing advances in materials and manufacturing (for both drivers and cabinets), and computer-assisted design.

Happy listening.

Larry
« Last Edit: 8 Jun 2012, 07:17 pm by LarryB »