AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Enclosures => Topic started by: dburna on 5 May 2017, 10:26 pm
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I am doing some future research for a few years down the road. In order to please the Mrs. (aka: She Who Must Be Obeyed), I am most likely going to go from floorstanding to monitor speakers when we become empty nesters....as I know SWMBO is going to want us to get smaller digs.
As such, I've decided to begin a long-term search to find a monitor that I can put on a stand and move into place during listening hours (and put away when they are not in use). Going to save up so I can wait patiently for the right speakers and pounce when the price is right. Am looking for monitors that are not a huge sonic compromise despite a compact form factor. Some things I am looking for:
1. Decent low extension: doesn't have to be below 40Hz, but at least around there
2. Revealing but never shrill -- I am really sensitive aesthetically to digititis and glare
3. Fast, responsive....but most of all MUSICAL.
4. All things being equal, high efficiency is better than low....but I know that this is usually one of the compromises of monitor speakers.
5. Neutral, maybe just a tinge to the warm side
6. No overt cabinet colorations. Was just at AXPONA 2017 and the Harbeths and Audio Note speakers ring (as they were designed). Just to be sure it wasn't my hearing, I put my hand on the cabinet as they were playing and....my hearing is fine. I find that sound distracting, despite the obvious merits of these two speaker lines.
7. Nice cosmetics (to please SWMBO). You know, nothing with antlers, antennae, or massive Avantgarde horn speaker protuberances. :lol:
8. Would prefer something that didn't need a sub.
9. Would prefer something that sounded good at low volumes.
10. Would prefer something that could be used near room boundaries (side/back walls) without horrific sonic compromises.
11. Would like to stay at/around $3k, new or used. Could go higher, but may not want to unless the fit is ideal.
Am thinking that ultimately I would pair this with something like the new Pass XA25 (which is coming out as an integrated version in the fall-ish timeframe). Right now, would consider some new Fritz Carrera BEs, new/used Odyssey Kismets, used WLM Diva, used SP Tech/Aethers, etc. I am thinking that Salks are not for me -- I have heard them multiple times at shows and liked (but never loved) them.
With some of the above speakers as potential guidelines for my taste, what do folks suggest I check out? Any hidden gems that I may have missed?
Thanks in advance for your input, -dB
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The Vandersrteen VLR has gotten some strong reviews, and has been voiced to sound correct withtin one foot of the rear (or front) wall. It's ± $1200.
Good review on page 57 of the current Tone magazine
http://www.tonepublications.com/MAGPDF/TA_075.pdf
If you are looking for more bass extension in a compact speaker here are a couple of unusual recommendations; the Buchardt S300 Mk II at €1200 (passive)
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/buchardt/1.html
and the APS Klasik or, even better, the APS Aeon (active, and within your price range).
http://aps-company.com/page-product-aeon.html
Both have very extended and high quality bass.
I'd also be curious about the Audio Physic Step Plus:
http://www.audiophysic.de/step_plus/index_e.html
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I would suggest you listen to some Joseph Audio Prisms
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Also recommend looking into active monitors. This will provide extra bass for a given size of cabinet, plus lots of other advantages.
But first find out how big the listening space will be and how far away you'll be listening. In a smaller space will these speakers also serve to watch movies? For instance, the very well respected KH120 should work fine in a small/medium sized room, but the KH310 would serve a medium/larger room well.
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I'll side with Mr. Dawkins recommendation of an active. In another ten years I may be downsizing as well and having a bit of experience with actives (in my HT kit) that will be my primary consideration.
I'm 5 minutes from bailing from work so I'll try to come up with some brand/model suggestions later. First one that comes to mind is Salk's active, the PowerPlay, I think?
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Another that come to mind, given the stated $3000 limit, and allowing that an amp is not needed with these, the JBL 708s are $4000 the pair but include (massive) amplification and the JBL 508 would be a sweetheart, too. I'm thinking of a pair myself for the downsizing stage!
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I know someone who went from the highly regarded Spatial M3 Turbo S to Totem Embers and he hasn't looked back. I haven't heard them myself but they have garnered some exceptionally great reviews. YMMV
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An AC member mentioned to me that the small SP Tech/Aethers he has need to be played loud in order to open up and sound their best.
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http://omegaloudspeakers.com/superalnicomonit.html
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I've heard some Totems and they do sound nice.
I bought Vienna Acoustics Haydns and I love them. Whenever I change anything they help me hear the change.
I'm also considering the future and downsizing. On my list of things to hear are Trenner & Friedl Suns (https://www.trenner-friedl.com/index.php?menu=product&sprache=en&second=sun), Role Audio Sampans (https://www.roleaudio.com/sampan), Airtight Bonsai (http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/air-tight-bonsai-al-05-mini-monitor/) and Totem Sky (https://totemacoustic.com/en/sky/specifications).
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Might be worth looking at the new speakers from Evoke here on AC. I read the website on the new "ruby" model and it seems to hit a good number of your check boxes.
A question from another direction, unless you are really meaning to completely pack down and store your speakers between listening, wouldn't a pair of small floorstanders (basically a monitor/bookshelf sized speaker with an "integrated" stand) serve just as well and allow you to get more of what you're after without change in footprint? This reminded me of a pair of used Odyssey Kismet floorstanders on the 'gon right now for a price within your wheelhouse.
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Fritz speakers.
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Check out Amphion One15 / One18.
Comparison with other monitors to get an idea, especially in the midrange.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB1v-2fJZ2s
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Fritz speakers.
+1
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Kef Active LS-50 (includes built in amps). Active speakers are better than passives, period. There are other choices if you don't like Kef.
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Salk actives.
She picks the veneer and stain.
You sell your amps!
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dB,
I'm a fan of controlled directivity designs and as such my recommendations will side with those types of designs. In that vein, here are my recommendations:
JBL 708p/708i or their little brothers 508p/508i 705p/705i - you and the wife may not like the looks though.
ELAC Adante AC-61 (A good subjective review is here on this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2703993-elac-adante-ces-2017-a.html#post49658497). It's supposed to be out soon, is designed by Andrew Jones, and they look nice. I would look at these as a direct competitor to KEF in this price range (and I'm a fan of KEF too!).
If you find a decent woodworker or builder, AND if it passes your wife's inspection, you can try Linkwitz LX Mini, there are some prettier builds out there and the design does approach CD. However, you may not like the looks at all.
I've listened to various smaller stand mount speakers, all of them non-CD design including Fritz, Salk, Sonus Faber, Evoke, etc...and haven't been impressed. But the ones that impressed me are the Ryan Speakers R610 and various stand mount designs from Selah audio.
Best,
Anand.
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Another that come to mind, given the stated $3000 limit, and allowing that an amp is not needed with these, the JBL 708s are $4000 the pair but include (massive) amplification and the JBL 508 would be a sweetheart, too. I'm thinking of a pair myself for the downsizing stage!
The JBL 705p or 708p could be in the mix. Hit most of your criteria except for perhaps the asthetic part.
Active, powered monitors, neutral, clarity and extension. Find somewhere which you can purchase with a trial period.
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Fritz Carbon 7 SE's. You can't go wrong.
NB
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The JBL 705p or 708p could be in the mix. Hit most of your criteria except for perhaps the asthetic part.
Active, powered monitors, neutral, clarity and extension. Find somewhere which you can purchase with a trial period.
This.
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I own the SP Tech Minis and will never sell them. But if I were to do it all over again I would audition as many actives as possible and go with that, especially in the price range you are looking at.
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dB,
I'm a fan of controlled directivity designs and as such my recommendations will side with those types of designs. In that vein, here are my recommendations:
JBL 708p/708i or their little brothers 508p/508i - you and the wife may not like the looks though.
ELAC Adante AC-61 (A good subjective review is here on this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2703993-elac-adante-ces-2017-a.html#post49658497). It's supposed to be out soon, is designed by Andrew Jones, and they look nice. I would look at these as a direct competitor to KEF in this price range (and I'm a fan of KEF too!).
If you find a decent woodworker or builder, AND if it passes your wife's inspection, you can try Linkwitz LX Mini, there are some prettier builds out there and the design does approach CD. However, you may not like the looks at all.
I've listened to various smaller stand mount speakers, all of them non-CD design including Fritz, Salk, Sonus Faber, Evoke, etc...and haven't been impressed. But the ones that impressed me are the Ryan Speakers R610 and various stand mount designs from Selah audio.
Best,
Anand.
For the life of me, I don't see a JBL 508p anywhere?
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For the life of me, I don't see a JBL 508p anywhere?
He probably meant the 308. However, there's also the 530 standmount, along with the 550/570/580 floorstanding models.
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"JBL 708p/708i or their little brothers 508p/508i"
705p/705i
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/7-series#.WQ3r19IrJPY
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The Fritz Carrera 7 you mentioned is a very good choice. :thumb: I would want to hear the new Evoke Ruby as well. The Revel Performa3 M106 is another good candidate in your price range.
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A little hard to address the original question because who knows what will be around at the stipulated ~2020 time frame....
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A little hard to address the original question because who knows what will be around at the stipulated ~2020 time frame....
If it were my money, I would think about what is available new right now and then consider buying it second hand three years from now.
That being said, some things come to mind:
1. A stand mount and a stand occupy the same floor space and height as a smaller floorstander, and would likely cost as much. The difference is that a stand mount is smaller and lighter and more easily moved by one person. That is becoming more important to me as I grow older.
2. While powered monitors are a great integrated solution, I have had bas experiences in which one part of an integrated component fails and renders the rest unusable. I am now firmly in the separates camp.
3. There is a short list of stand-mount speakers that seem to work almost universally. While I am a fan of high-efficiency speakers, Harbeth seems to be held in almost universal high regard.
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Directivity would be nice, but to get it from the midwoofer you'd need it to be 10-12", so it'd be once beefy stand mount. The tweeter you can get, like with the JBL. Personally I wouldn't be real worried about it since the midwoofer is what's going to actually allow the boundaries to change and there's nothing in that price range.
I haven't heard the Evoke Eddie, but maybe it's appealing? Seems like it would lean one step more towards clinical than musical, for those that like detail?
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A little hard to address the original question because who knows what will be around at the stipulated ~2020 time frame....
Well, yes.......and no. The timeframe may not allow specific suggestions that will be available in 2020-ish, but they definitely help me to keep certain companies on my radar that are targeting great sound in more modest living spaces. Also, many of these models of today may be available for a song in the used market come 2020. Also, depending on circumstances with aging parents and such, 2020 may get moved up a bit. Hard to predict the future.
Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. Keep 'em coming. I've been very impressed by the breadth and creativity of the recommendations. Will post some of my thoughts later. I am somewhat logistically challenged today with lots of softball games and such, but I will get back to all these either later tonight or tomorrow.
Best regards, -dB
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http://omegaloudspeakers.com/superalnicomonit.html
Really interesting suggestion, Radar. I might be even MORE tempted by these: http://omegaloudspeakers.com/superalnicohigh1.html.
I think if I stay with passive monitors, it'll probably come down to either these, Fritz Carrera 7, or one of several Selah offerings.
-dB
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That's a beefy stand mount to be moving around. OTOH any single driver speaker is an active speaker by default.
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That's a beefy stand mount to be moving around. OTOH any single driver speaker is an active speaker by default.
Well, not impossibly heavy (38 lbs.), though with stand you are right it would take a little work to move about. I could probably put some Herbie's sliders underneath so I don't have to actually lift anything, just slide. What I like about this solution is what I like about my current (Horning Perikles Ultimate) floorstanders -- high efficiency. I have always gravitated to high efficiency designs. They come alive at low volumes and low wattage. They seem particularly good at microdetails for voice, piano, strings, etc.
However, there are always trade-offs. I had Omegas from many generations ago that I felt were somewhat rolled-off at both frequency extremes, and as such weren't the ultimate solution for me. I'd have to investigate these further to be sure that the driver state-of-the-art has advanced sufficiently to suit my needs. From a WAF standpoint (multiple wood finishes) and mostly from a size standpoint -- although these are visually "smaller" than my current floorstanders -- these are a strong contender. And I certainly like the idea of two drivers (with no crossover) better than a single driver. I need to explore more, but I've never met a single driver yet that can "do it all" well.
-dB
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1. A stand mount and a stand occupy the same floor space and height as a smaller floorstander, and would likely cost as much. The difference is that a stand mount is smaller and lighter and more easily moved by one person. That is becoming more important to me as I grow older.
Not necessarily true. Plenty of smallish / lightish 2 or 3 way floorstanders that are just as light and easily maneuverable as a monitor on a hefty stand.
2. While powered monitors are a great integrated solution, I have had bas experiences in which one part of an integrated component fails and renders the rest unusable. I am now firmly in the separates camp.
Not to mention that a powered monitor eliminates the fun (?) of tweaking and voicing the sound with amp changes.
My 2 cents.....
Look at: JM Reynaud stand mounts (ie. Offrande) and small floorstanders, Vienna Acoustic Concert Grand Series, Silverline Sonatina, DeVore Gibbons 88 (and even discontinued models).
Also, some of the new 2 driver systems that Omega is introducing are very interesting and worth looking into.
All are easy to drive (VA need moderate power), emminently musical, and within your budget bought used.
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Well, not impossibly heavy (38 lbs.), though with stand you are right it would take a little work to move about. I could probably put some Herbie's sliders underneath so I don't have to actually lift anything, just slide. What I like about this solution is what I like about my current (Horning Perikles Ultimate) floorstanders -- high efficiency. I have always gravitated to high efficiency designs. They come alive at low volumes and low wattage. They seem particularly good at microdetails for voice, piano, strings, etc.
However, there are always trade-offs. I had Omegas from many generations ago that I felt were somewhat rolled-off at both frequency extremes, and as such weren't the ultimate solution for me. I'd have to investigate these further to be sure that the driver state-of-the-art has advanced sufficiently to suit my needs. From a WAF standpoint (multiple wood finishes) and mostly from a size standpoint -- although these are visually "smaller" than my current floorstanders -- these are a strong contender. And I certainly like the idea of two drivers (with no crossover) better than a single driver. I need to explore more, but I've never met a single driver yet that can "do it all" well.
-dB
It is indeed hard to find a single driver that can do it all. From my experience trying to get satisfying bass out of a wide range driver is where we start to encounter compromises. Omega tries to address this by adding a helper driver in their 1.5 way models. This is the logical step for a speaker manufacturer. Others use active bass to provide the low end. The Salk Exotica 3 uses the Rhythmik F8 active bass module to fill in below the high efficiency midbass driver. I use a similar arrangement: I own a pair of Super Alnico Monitors and use a pair of Rhythmik F8's as stands/bass modules. The bass modules can cross over as high as 200hz, which fills in nicely as an active "bass adder". As a side benefit, I now have what is effectively a modular floorstander that I can move around myself, albeit with some difficulty (the Omega's weigh 28 lbs but the Rhythmik F8's weigh 68 pounds).
I also have the option of converting the Super Alnico Monitor to a HO model by adding a helper driver and inductor (per Louis as Omega). The Omega drivers work in a lot of different cabinet volumes. This is a much more manageable size than the stock HO monitor.
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For the life of me, I don't see a JBL 508p anywhere?
My apologies...I meant 705i and 705p in addition to the 708i and 708p mentioned numerous times on this thread.
Best,
Anand.
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How about the Reference 3A MM DE CAPO BE monitor?
Specifications: 40-40,000 Hz, 92 dB/w/m, 8 ohms, 150 watts maximum input, 15" x 11" x 13", 27 pounds
Features: no crossover (twitter is cap protected - therefore it essentially functions as an active speaker), sloped front baffle, hand built drivers (carbon fiber woofer, beryllium tweeter), unfortunately a dull grey finish
Reported attributes: dynamic, good bass output, big soundstage, hearty/rich sounding, transparent/honest, refined/fast
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Kef Active LS-50 (includes built in amps). Active speakers are better than passives, period. There are other choices if you don't like Kef.
There is an interesting comparison of the Vandersteen VLR with the LS-50s in the review cited in reply #1 above.
Note: the page is 57 or 114, depending on whether you view one or two pages at a time.
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How about the Reference 3A MM DE CAPO BE monitor?
Specifications: 40-40,000 Hz, 92 dB/w/m, 8 ohms, 150 watts maximum input, 15" x 11" x 13", 27 pounds
Features: no crossover (twitter is cap protected), sloped front baffle, hand built drivers (carbon fiber woofer, beryllium tweeter), unfortunately a dull grey finish
Reported attributes: dynamic, good bass output, big soundstage, hearty/rich sounding, transparent/honest, refined/fast
Owned an older version (not the BE), sold them. IMO a bit lean, forward and shrill in the upper mids, even with sweet SET tube amps.
Loved by most, my opinion is in the minority. But if you dig, you will find others that make the same comments about them.
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How about the Reference 3A MM DE CAPO BE monitor?
Specifications: 40-40,000 Hz, 92 dB/w/m, 8 ohms, 150 watts maximum input, 15" x 11" x 13", 27 pounds
Features: no crossover (twitter is cap protected), sloped front baffle, hand built drivers (carbon fiber woofer, beryllium tweeter), unfortunately a dull grey finish
Reported attributes: dynamic, good bass output, big soundstage, hearty/rich sounding, transparent/honest, refined/fast
JLM,
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1150:nrc-measurements-reference-3a-mm-de-capo-be&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
http://www.stereophile.com/content/reference-mm-de-capo-i-loudspeaker-measurements#fct6CiFovPbWPe7b.97
Measurements don't lie. I wouldn't give that speaker a second of my time. Atrocious performance. I'm not surprised by sunnydaze's comments.
Best,
Anand.
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JLM,
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1150:nrc-measurements-reference-3a-mm-de-capo-be&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
http://www.stereophile.com/content/reference-mm-de-capo-i-loudspeaker-measurements#fct6CiFovPbWPe7b.97
Measurements don't lie. I wouldn't give that speaker a second of my time. Atrocious performance. I'm not surprised by sunnydaze's comments.
Best,
Anand.
The original version sounded to me the way those measurements suggest. One of the least accurate midrange tonalities I have heard in any speaker with any serious 'street cred'. One other 2 way speaker of that era where the bass/mid driver was directly connected—the Epos ES11—had the same iffy tonality to my ears. The Ref 3 A had massive bass capabilties for its size and could play loud, but the tonality was a bad joke. I'd like to think later versions were better, but I don't know.
It's quite a trick to get high performance bass and quality mids from the same driver without going active with quality DSP and AD/DA, it would seem.My father bought a pair back in the day, but the honeymoon was one evening long; they were returned the next day and exchanged for a pair of Clements RT7s. A little better but still wrong—but with amazing deep bass.
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Selah Tempestas $2300 used or $3200-3900 new. Evoke Eddie's $3300 new, Vapor Cirrus black or white $4000 used. All are excellent--very good drivers in all of them. The Vapor has a superior cabinet.
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SP Tech Time Piece. I have the 3.0 version. Maybe the minis would work in your situation. Good luck
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One of the better stand mount speakers I have heard and not to much are the http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/microone/
The designer Kevin is a great guy to deal with. Used to be the Vsa guy. Yes the VSA you're thinking about.
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SP Tech Time Piece. I have the 3.0 version. Maybe the minis would work in your situation. Good luck
So, per a previous comment on this thread, would you please comment on the low-level performance of these? I remember hearing some SP Tech model at the first RMAF and really liked the sound. My only issue with these given their sensitivity is how well these sound at low volumes. I know there will be times when I will need to listen to soft music. It's my one concern with any low-sensitivity speakers: will I get a collapsed soundstage and flat image when they are played softly?
Thanks, -dB
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If it were my money, I would think about what is available new right now and then consider buying it second hand three years from now.
That being said, some things come to mind:
1. A stand mount and a stand occupy the same floor space and height as a smaller floorstander, and would likely cost as much. The difference is that a stand mount is smaller and lighter and more easily moved by one person. That is becoming more important to me as I grow older.
2. While powered monitors are a great integrated solution, I have had bas experiences in which one part of an integrated component fails and renders the rest unusable. I am now firmly in the separates camp.
3. There is a short list of stand-mount speakers that seem to work almost universally. While I am a fan of high-efficiency speakers, Harbeth seems to be held in almost universal high regard.
That is exactly my plan.
RE: #1. This is usually (although not always) the case. There are exceptions. Using sliding footers, for example, I could make both (small) floorstanders and monitors work. However, it's not just the weight/size that I am considering. It's also the visual impact, which I imagine will be important to the Missus. At AXPONA 2017, I enjoyed listening to the Odyssey Kismet monitors. However, they were configured as a floorstander (integrated stand), which takes up just as much space as my Horning Perikles Ultimates. [Note: yes, I know Klaus can configure these as a standard monitor.] If I have a solution that is neither smaller in footprint or visual impact than the Perikles, I'll just keep those since I love them so much.
That's a key point here: I expect fully that a smaller solution will not sound as good as my Perikles, but I am doing this in favor of future domestic harmony in a smaller living space.
RE: #2. Hadn't thought of that. I guess that is a concern I need to weigh.
RE: #3. I mentioned this in my initial post. I like the way Harbeths sound overall, but I cannot seem to ignore the cabinet resonance issue. I know many can and do enjoy these, but I think hearing a cabinet making a sound of its own would ultimately be distracting to me.
-dB
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The Odyssey Kismets sound better as a bookshelf, IMO. I've heard them set up both ways and they are better as a plain bookshelf, IMO.
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I second the Tempesta, which I owned. Extraordinary for the $. There is a rare pair on A-gon now. Rick at Selah has other interesting offerings for your range.
Vapor Audio also top quality.
My #1 favorite standmount is what I own now, the LaHave Mela, but they are $6500 new and very hard to find (new or used).
I disagree with an earlier post about the Evolution MMMicro ones, which I found to be very bright and hard to listen to with most amps. Very low coloration otherwise, though.
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I second the Tempesta, which I owned. Extraordinary for the $. There is a rare pair on A-gon now. Rick at Selah has other interesting offerings for your range.
Vapor Audio also top quality.
My #1 favorite standmount is what I own now, the LaHave Mela, but they are $6500 new and very hard to find (new or used).
I disagree with an earlier post about the Evolution MMMicro ones, which I found to be very bright and hard to listen to with most amps. Very low coloration otherwise, though.
There is a YouTube of these speakers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF97otBoIzQ. With the usual qualifiers (Internet/laptop sound), these sound lovely and would be well worth seeking out for an in-person demo. I will say that the ancillary equipment doesn't hurt the presentation, either. 8)
-dB
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I disagree with an earlier post about the Evolution MMMicro ones, which I found to be very bright and hard to listen to with most amps. Very low coloration otherwise, though.
'Very bright' is probably the worst thing someone can say about a speaker IMO. I am so sensitive to this that I have walked out of rooms at AXPONA in 10 seconds or less. It's probably just my ears, but I have no tolerance for that whatsoever.
-dB
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Also recommend looking into active monitors. This will provide extra bass for a given size of cabinet, plus lots of other advantages.
But first find out how big the listening space will be and how far away you'll be listening. In a smaller space will these speakers also serve to watch movies? For instance, the very well respected KH120 should work fine in a small/medium sized room, but the KH310 would serve a medium/larger room well.
As for actives, I am very much 'on the bus'. Thanks to input from JLM and others, I use a pair of KH120s in our basement A/V system and love them in a small space. I have a pair of JBL LSR305's (which for the $119 I paid for them are INCREDIBLY good) in my desktop work-from-home rig. However, the aesthetic issue might be huge with the larger JBLs in a living room setting. In addition, as much as I like the 305s in a nearfield setup, I wonder if the larger JBLs would serve well as my main listening outlet. I heard the ENORMOUS JBLs at AXPONA (are they the M2s?) both this year and last, and I don't think they are my cup-of-tea, even if I could handle the space constraints and cost. I will definitely have to seek out a demo of the 708p to see if they'd work for me. Where would one even find these? At something like a Guitar Center or similar pro outlet?
-dB
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I'm a fan of controlled directivity designs and as such my recommendations will side with those types of designs. In that vein, here are my recommendations:
JBL 708p/708i or their little brothers 508p/508i 705p/705i - you and the wife may not like the looks though.
I am thinking the same thing. My best guess is that the industrial look of these may not fly.
ELAC Adante AC-61 (A good subjective review is here on this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2703993-elac-adante-ces-2017-a.html#post49658497). It's supposed to be out soon, is designed by Andrew Jones, and they look nice. I would look at these as a direct competitor to KEF in this price range (and I'm a fan of KEF too!).
Does anyone know if these were demoed at AXPONA this year? If ELAC had a room, I didn't go into it. I guess I wasn't too focused on this question about smaller speakers at AXPONA......though perhaps I should have been.
I've listened to various smaller stand mount speakers, all of them non-CD design including Fritz, Salk, Sonus Faber, Evoke, etc...and haven't been impressed. But the ones that impressed me are the Ryan Speakers R610 and various stand mount designs from Selah audio.
I think I missed the Ryan room at AXPONA, too. Am starting to think I missed too much this year after only going for one day.
A question for folks who have heard the Selah Tempestas: how do they sound at low volumes? I saw that these are rated at 85.5dB, which is considerably lower than my current 96dB speakers. Am wondering how well these sound at low volumes, and what kind of beastly amplifier would be needed to drive them successfully. I know the Pass amps provide much more power than their rated specs, but would a 25w/50w into 8/4 ohm amp like the XA25 be enough to drive these? I also wonder about how well very low sensitivity speakers do with micro-dynamics. Isn't it like trying to start/stop an ocean liner?
-dB
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I have always had larger/high-sensitivity speakers. Now that I am looking at smaller monitors with decent bass extension, I am confoundd by the pesky laws of physics. Two questions for folks who have more experience in this area:
1. How do low-sensitivity speakers sound at low volumes and with micro-dynamic shading?
2. In a small-ish size room (12x12' or 13x15'), how much power is practically required for a speaker of 85-88dB sensitivity? This is assuming semi-normal listening levels, not 'play to the neighbors' volumes.
This is a follow-on to my previous post, but it is a general question sparked by the thought of employing a pair of Selah Tempestas at 85.5dB. I have a pair of NCores now that I am sure would be sufficient, but I am concerned that moving to a lower Class A power design might be incompatible with something like the Tempestas.
-dB
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While they are not stand mounts, the new Omega Super 3 HO XRS (http://omegaloudspeakers.com/super3hoxrs.html) are a modestly proportioned floorstander with high efficiency, good bass extension, and also work well near room boundaries.
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Personally, I would never own a speaker below 88db. Too limiting on the amp side. But I like low power tubes, so that's just me.
Also, in general, I don't believe low efficiency speakers gel / come alive as well at low volumes.
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Personally, I would never own a speaker below 88db. Too limiting on the amp side. But I like low power tubes, so that's just me.
Also, in general, I don't believe low efficiency speakers gel / come alive as well at low volumes.
That's pretty much my concern as well. I am curious to hear what others have to say, especially those who have owned low-sensitivity speakers. I don't want something I have to crank to get it to sound good. I am not averse to cranking, but I don't want to have to do so if I am listening late at night, for instance.
The Selah Tempestas are low at 85.5dB, but the 2-way Veritas are even lower at 83db(!!). Wow, that's low.
Have done the low-power tube thing in many guises, but I am now looking for 'no maintenance' amps.....plus those my wife won't be afraid to use. :roll:
-dB
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Have done the low-power tube thing in many guises, but I am now looking for 'no maintenance' amps.....plus those my wife won't be afraid to use. :roll:
-dB
Understood.
I guess my main point was that an efficient speaker means you can effectively use 100% of the amps out there (an over-simplification, I know).......not just SET tubes, but also great low power SS like First Watt. With a hard to drive speaker, you cannot.
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Here are the BEST sounding speakers on the Internet. No other recording, no other video out there represents speakers this well.
The SEAS BiFrost, DIY standmounts are absolutely what you're looking for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgaUQO4lvII
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:o :lol: Those are the biggest stand mounts I've seen.
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So, per a previous comment on this thread, would you please comment on the low-level performance of these? I remember hearing some SP Tech model at the first RMAF and really liked the sound. My only issue with these given their sensitivity is how well these sound at low volumes. I know there will be times when I will need to listen to soft music. It's my one concern with any low-sensitivity speakers: will I get a collapsed soundstage and flat image when they are played softly?
Thanks, -dB
Responded in detail via PM. Love my 3.0s and not looking for anything else. But these speakers are 65 lbs and I'm getting older.... These are a wonderful match with my modded McCormack DNA 1.0
Nick
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My SP Tech Minis are 42 lbs each, 4 lbs heavier than the other Minis because I had them made out of Ipe, a very dense wood. There is no loss of imaging at low volumes. As for micro-dynamics, I'm of the opinion that it is more dependent on your front end, than the speaker, in that department.
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Owner of SP Tech 'stand mount' AV2
MTM wave guide with 8" peerless midwoofer.
about 91dB 4 ohm. They still impress listeners.
Owner of Selah speakers. Different style but nicely
voiced. Agree that often the front end has a significant
contribution. Gain & Current is needed to translate voltage
swings on the recording to the amps drive & control of the
drivers.
Good Luck. Listen to as many (demo) as you can.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161957)
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As for actives, I am very much 'on the bus'. Thanks to input from JLM and others, I use a pair of KH120s in our basement A/V system and love them in a small space. I have a pair of JBL LSR305's (which for the $119 I paid for them are INCREDIBLY good) in my desktop work-from-home rig. However, the aesthetic issue might be huge with the larger JBLs in a living room setting. In addition, as much as I like the 305s in a nearfield setup, I wonder if the larger JBLs would serve well as my main listening outlet. I heard the ENORMOUS JBLs at AXPONA (are they the M2s?) both this year and last, and I don't think they are my cup-of-tea, even if I could handle the space constraints and cost. I will definitely have to seek out a demo of the 708p to see if they'd work for me. Where would one even find these? At something like a Guitar Center or similar pro outlet?
-dB
Guitar Center carries them but they may not be in stock for a demo. Good luck with your search.
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The Guitar Centers around me carry very ordinary, low cost monitors.
But lots of other professional gear outlets around.
Call ahead.
I've seen coincidental 2-ways, 3-ways, front/rear ported, transmission line, active/passive, even egg shaped professional monitors.
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The Devore 3xl's are fantastic.
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Tekton Impact Monitors
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161959)
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The Selah's are VERY conservatively rated. I owned a Edge M6 at 120/watts per channel and it drove the Tempestas with ease. My brother now owns them and drives them with a Japanese home theater amp at 100 watts per ch. He says no problem getting great volume at reasonable levels on the volume control.
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This.
+3 If I had....I mean really HAD to downsize, this would likely be my only consideration. P.S. I use the 708i's (non powered) as sides in my HT.
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Tekton Impact Monitors
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161959)
Bluemeanies, have you heard these yet? Are they around anywhere that one could listen to these? It looks interesting, but I am unsure of the reasoning for 7(!) tweeters arranged in a honeycomb pattern. Doesn't that detract from the point-source concept? Wouldn't the drivers have to be extremely well-matched?
-dB
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The JBL 705p or 708p could be in the mix. Hit most of your criteria except for perhaps the asthetic part.
Active, powered monitors, neutral, clarity and extension. Find somewhere which you can purchase with a trial period.
Soooooo, has anyone heard the 708p's in action? American Musical Supply lists that these are coming out 6/26/17. Care to comment how they sound and whether they might have any drawbacks in a home living space (as opposed to a recording studio)?
Also, I notice these have two 250w Class D amplifiers for the high-/low-end. Does JBL make its own Class D amplification? Or do they outsource their amps to someone we might associate more closely with Class D amps?
-dB
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The Selah's are VERY conservatively rated. I owned a Edge M6 at 120/watts per channel and it drove the Tempestas with ease. My brother now owns them and drives them with a Japanese home theater amp at 100 watts per ch. He says no problem getting great volume at reasonable levels on the volume control.
True. Compared to my Revel M20s, rated at 87db but measured at 84.5 by Stereophile, they are notably louder across the board, easily 3 db. louder, and not due to impedance differences. I think a good 30watt tube amp would be plenty for most users.
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Soooooo, has anyone heard the 708p's in action? American Musical Supply lists that these are coming out 6/26/17. Care to comment how they sound and whether they might have any drawbacks in a home living space (as opposed to a recording studio)?
Also, I notice these have two 250w Class D amplifiers for the high-/low-end. Does JBL make its own Class D amplification? Or do they outsource their amps to someone we might associate more closely with Class D amps?
-dB
Crown is their sister company under the same umbrella company of WAS harmon NOW samsung. Their technology is mostly switching, aka class d, but they have smart power supplies for the power needed for high power in a pro setting.
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Tekton Impact Monitors
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161959)
Personally I don't get it. They are doing a very crude version of a waveguide plus CD but with purposeful comb filtering at HF...not even a very intelligent dispersion matching if evenly distributed amongst tweeters
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Personally I don't get it. They are doing a very crude version of a waveguide plus CD but with purposeful comb filtering at HF...not even a very intelligent dispersion matching if evenly distributed amongst tweeters
But it shur looks purty...... :roll:
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But it shur looks purty...... :roll:
Spiders everywhere love 'em! :lol:
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+3 If I had....I mean really HAD to downsize, this would likely be my only consideration.
Seriously? Are you saying they are that good - or merely good enough?
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How about some recommendations from the Stereophile 2017 class A list:
Aerial Acoustics 5T: $3795/pair
2-way monitor, stylish reinforced curved side wall rosewood veneered cabinet, front port, 7" woofer, designed and built in the U.S., recommended to be placed 2 - 24" from front wall, highs a bit laid back, not for headbangers but image superbly, rated down to 48 Hz, 87 dB/w/m at 4 ohms
ATC SCM19 v.2: $3999/pair
2-way monitor, company is well respected, elegant cabinet, traditional design, uses in-house drivers, highly resolving/coherent even at low levels, neutral/yet processing some mid-bass warmth, not dry/clinical, live/direct, good tonality/dynamics, highs a bit shrouded, power hungry at 85 dB/w/m and 8 ohms, rated down to 54 Hz
DeVore Fidelity Gibbon 3XL: $3700/pair
2-way monitor, U.S. built, caramelized bamboo cabinets (matching stands available), all about focus/transparency, coherent/fast, excellent low level resolution/dynamics, pin-point imaging/huge soundstage, not forgiving, good tonal balance/not bright, not a rich/full sound, rated down to 45 Hz, 90 dB/w/m at 8 ohms
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Bluemeanies, have you heard these yet? Are they around anywhere that one could listen to these? It looks interesting, but I am unsure of the reasoning for 7(!) tweeters arranged in a honeycomb pattern. Doesn't that detract from the point-source concept? Wouldn't the drivers have to be extremely well-matched?
-dB
No, I have not heard these or any other TEKTON speaker, however I know people who own the Tekton Pendragons and the Lores. Both speakers received high ratings professionally and by customers.
I think that Tekton gives you a 30 day trial...FREE!
They are only available on-line.
IMO the speaker by design interests me and if I were in the market for monitors I would give these speakers a test drive.
Second runner up is SALK,however I am considering your budget. They are another company worth looking into even if you may have to pay a little more.
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Tekton Impact Monitors - Proprietary 3-way loudspeaker design. :scratch:
Not saying it works, not saying it doesn't. :dunno:
If someone is in the market for any kind of speaker be it floorstanding or monitor which are unavailable in a B&M store and it does not cost that person anything to take ownership for 30 days of exploring what that speaker can produce in sound reproduction that's a good deal.
Tekton is a well respected company in the audio market.
The new B&W D3's series have nearly a thousand NEW design parts in their speakers but do we analyze what parts and why those changes were made or do we listen to the D3's with an open mind to make a rational decision as to whether the speakers are worth over 1/3 more in price.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161977)
Another good speaker which I have heard and is amazing for the price.
Well made interior design.
Philharmonic Audio is pleased to announce the BMR Philharmonitor. The newest member of the Philharmonic family provides a level of performance previously available only in a premium tower speaker, but at substantially lower price. The BMR Philharmonitor is a 3-way design using the same RAAL ribbon tweeter found in the Slims tower, an innovative Balanced Mode Radiator (BMR) midrange driver, and the latest version of the highly respected Scan Speak 8545 7-inch woofer.
Useable bass response extends to 30 Hz in a bass reflex cabinet optimized by Paul Kittinger. The BMR midrange and RAAL tweeter provide exceptional lateral dispersion and an expansive sound stage. The 17-element crossover uses the same high quality parts found in our more expensive speakers and blends the three drivers seamlessly. Pricing starts at only $1,600/pr plus shipping, not to exceed $100.
The most unique feature of the new design is the Balanced Mode Radiator midrange driver. Conventional drivers function in simple pistonic fashion across their frequency range. Eventually the response becomes chaotic as severe breakup modes develop from the applied mass of the voice coil interacting with the driver mass, which greatly restricts the useable range of operation. The BMR is a flat-diaphragm speaker that uses strategically placed weights in the diaphragm to counteract the mass of the voice coil at higher frequencies.
The driver operates as a piston at lower frequencies, but shifts to a bending wave motion mode in the lower treble, and to a second bending mode in the upper treble. The result is greatly reduced breakup and extremely broad dispersion above 2,000 Hz. This driver is used as both a midrange and tweeter in several commercial applications. Although the BMR can function acceptably in this fashion, its true strength is upper midrange performance. The highest frequencies are much better served by the RAAL ribbon tweeter.
Bass frequencies are handled by a recently improved version of the classic Scan Speak 8545 7-inch woofer. This driver has long been noted for its superior bass reach and low harmonic distortion. The large volume of the BMR cabinet and expert port tuning by Paul Kittinger allow the Scan Speaker woofer to provide useful bass response to 30 Hz. This means you can experience the power of a pipe organ or bass drum without the expense of a tower speaker or the complexity of a subwoofer.
The BMR Philharmonitor is available in a wide variety of standard veneers with either a black satin front baffle or a veneered baffle with dyed edges. All cabinets are built to furniture-grade standards by Jim Salk of Salk Sound, and come with magnetic front grills. The pictured monitor features dyed curly walnut veneer, and carries the standard price of $,1600.
The following graphs illustrate the frequency response performance of the BMR Philharmonitor. The first plot shows the very smooth on-axis response, which is free of any fatiguing peaks. The second graph combines the on-axis curve (red) with the response at 30 degrees off axis (dark blue) and the response a full 80 degrees off axis (green). The extremely broad radiation pattern at even the highest frequencies provides a very wide listening position and excellent sound staging. Further, because the dispersion characteristics of the drivers are so well matched at their crossover points, there is no need for wave guides that can color the sound and narrow the listening window.
Frequency Response
Specifications
Cabinet Cherry, maple, piano black, or custom veneers by Jim Salk
Tweeter RAAL 64-10 OEM
Midrange Tectonic Balanced Mode Radiator 2.5"
Woofer Scan Speak 8545-01 7"
Frequency Response 30 Hz - 20kHz (+ / - 2db) Anechoic
Sensitivity 84.5 dB (dB/2.83v/1M)
Box Alignment Bass Reflex
Dimensions 22" H x 9" W x 13.5" D
Weight 38 lbs each
Impedance 6 Ohms
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How about some recommendations from the Stereophile 2017 class A list:
Aerial Acoustics 5T: $3795/pair
2-way monitor, stylish reinforced curved side wall rosewood veneered cabinet, front port, 7" woofer, designed and built in the U.S., recommended to be placed 2 - 24" from front wall, highs a bit laid back, not for headbangers but image superbly, rated down to 48 Hz, 87 dB/w/m at 4 ohms
ATC SCM19 v.2: $3999/pair
2-way monitor, company is well respected, elegant cabinet, traditional design, uses in-house drivers, highly resolving/coherent even at low levels, neutral/yet processing some mid-bass warmth, not dry/clinical, live/direct, good tonality/dynamics, highs a bit shrouded, power hungry at 85 dB/w/m and 8 ohms, rated down to 54 Hz
DeVore Fidelity Gibbon 3XL: $3700/pair
2-way monitor, U.S. built, caramelized bamboo cabinets (matching stands available), all about focus/transparency, coherent/fast, excellent low level resolution/dynamics, pin-point imaging/huge soundstage, not forgiving, good tonal balance/not bright, not a rich/full sound, rated down to 45 Hz, 90 dB/w/m at 8 ohms
1. Aerials: interesting, will need to research more
2. I have heard the ATCs at AXPONA. I might disagree (slightly) with the "not dry/clinical" assessment. Based on an admittedly small listening window, that's a little bit of what I did hear from these. Might still be worth an in-house assessment -- it could have been the hotel room set-up(s) that made it sound a little dry.
3. DeVore 3XL. The larger the DeVore speakers I have heard, the less I liked them. Sounded clear, but not completely involving. Maybe the reverse is true: that I will like the smallest DeVore speakers better. I did listen to one YouTube demo of the 3XLs, and the one concern I had was that I thought I heard them start to break up a little as they played louder. Again, perhaps in-home they will sound differently.
-dB
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Look at: JM Reynaud stand mounts (ie. Offrande) and small floorstanders, Vienna Acoustic Concert Grand Series, Silverline Sonatina, DeVore Gibbons 88 (and even discontinued models).
Sunnydaze, have you listened to the Offrandes extensively? I heard these at a (music server) demo when I lived in FL, many moons ago. I think this was probably at least 3 Offrande versions ago, but I recall liking the sound a good deal. Those present a sound that I liked, and I think these would work well in a small/medium-sized room. Am wondering how the new (Supreme V2) ones sound, supposedly they are even better.......but aren't the new versions ALWAYS much better than the older ones?? :?
-dB
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The Ridge Street Sason is another good one that would work with what you describe
88db but a very even load easy to drive I use a chip amp
I have heard the old Offrandes use to own the Jmr Trentes
Alot of boxes checked with the Sason
Isssue is finding one that is used
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Sunnydaze, have you listened to the Offrandes extensively? I heard these at a (music server) demo when I lived in FL, many moons ago. I think this was probably at least 3 Offrande versions ago, but I recall liking the sound a good deal. Those present a sound that I liked, and I think these would work well in a small/medium-sized room. Am wondering how the new (Supreme V2) ones sound, supposedly they are even better.......but aren't the new versions ALWAYS much better than the older ones?? :?
-dB
Only heard the Offrandes once. I considered buying it, so I went to a local guy's house to audition a pair FS. It was about 14 years ago so it was one of the earlier Offrandes. They didn't sound "right" to me, so I didn't purchase. But if I had to guess I'd say the room and / or setup was at fault.
What steered me to them was their consistently very positive press, and my direct experience with the JMR Twins. I love the Twins. I'm on my 2nd pair -- made the mistake of selling my 1st pair. I have them in my small room secondary setup paired with a Gallo sub -- I've yet to hear a standmount, any standmount, that I can listen to LT without a sub. I high pass my Twins Mk3 at 100Hz (HP filter built into my sub, a very nice feature). Removing the bottom significantly improves their performance all the way up to the top treble, and turns them into what sounds like a $3-4k speaker. Pretty good for a speaker that I bought used for $575 (original MSRP approx. $1100). High-passing also improves the performance of my Omegas in the same manner.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=21788
Given my positive experience with these speakers, I'm always on the lookout for a used pair of "smallish" JMR floorstanders (even older models): Cantabile, Evolutions, etc. IMO, they are hidden gems that can be had quite cheaply since they don't have much name recognition in the States. Unfortunately, if you check Hifishark you will see they show up fairly often on European used markets, not so much here.
Reynaud is something I'd definitely look into were I in your downsizing / upgrade visual aesthetics mode. They don't do audiophile pyrotechnics, they just engage and involve and pull you in.
And like I mentioned earlier, the smaller Vienna Acoustics floorstanders (Beethoven, Mozart, Bach (discontinued)). (Beethoven may be too large). They are immersive and musical, and very easy to move around, certainly no harder than a monitor on stands. The cabinets are beautiful works of art and visually they always score very high on the WAF scale. Common on used markets.
I also think highly of the Silverline Sonatina, which I previously owned. It fits your checklist nicely.
PS: my current Twins Mk3 definitely are better than my previous MK1. So at least for this model, newer is better. The current version is called the Bliss / Bliss Silver, which I hear is significantly better. Several months ago I saw a pair on AG for $900 (I believe the upgraded "Silver" retails for over $3k). I hemmed and hawed and hesitated......and lost out. They were sold when I looked again on day 2. Great deal.
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The only stand mount I ever owned and used without a sub was the Focal Electra 906's I had.
But those are about 1/8th your budget. And some don't love the Focal presentation as much as others.
I would still be looking at Salk. Active or not, they build some gorgeous, well reviewed and respected gear and are active in our community.
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2. I have heard the ATCs at AXPONA. I might disagree (slightly) with the "not dry/clinical" assessment. Based on an admittedly small listening window, that's a little bit of what I did hear from these. Might still be worth an in-house assessment -- it could have been the hotel room set-up(s) that made it sound a little dry.
I heard an SCM20 (passive) the other day, and I'd agree with the dry assessment. Fantastic midrange detail, but the top and bottom felt very restrained (albeit clean).
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I would still be looking at Salk. Active or not, they build some gorgeous, well reviewed and respected gear and are active in our community.
Never heard a pair, but I would too -- just based on all the positive press.
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I would still be looking at Salk. Active or not, they build some gorgeous, well reviewed and respected gear and are active in our community.
Never heard a pair, but I would too -- just based on all the positive press.
Love the sweet RAAL ribbon.
The Salk Silk AT with the Audio Technology woofer might be a fit with a more reasonable 87dB sensitivity (compared to the slightly smaller Salk Silk with the ScanSpeak Illuminator woofer and only 83dB sensitivity).
Steve
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Love the sweet RAAL ribbon.
The Salk Silk AT with the Audio Technology woofer might be a fit with a more reasonable 87dB sensitivity (compared to the slightly smaller Salk Silk with the ScanSpeak Illuminator woofer and only 83dB sensitivity).
Steve
Yes, if I went in that direction, I think this would be the model to consider. Some of the floorstanders seem nice, but some of the motivation here is to remove the ("huge" in the words of one of our house members) visual impact of the speakers.
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Yes, if I went in that direction, I think this would be the model to consider. Some of the floorstanders seem nice, but some of the motivation here is to remove the ("huge" in the words of one of our house members) visual impact of the speakers.
Floorstanders do not have to = huge. There are many high quality but simple single driver or 2-way floorstanders that actually "present smaller" than monitors on stands......especially some of the hefty monitors. I'm talking cabinets only 30 - 38 inches tall, and often quite slim. And as floorstanders, added benefit is usually greater LF reach and heft. Often easier to move around since they are stable one piece vs. topply monitors + stands.
Just off the top of my head:
Omega
Vienna Acoustics Bach and Mozart
Older Coincident Models (Conquest, Visionary Reference, etc)
Silverline Sonatina
JM Reynaud (smallish floorstanders)
There are many others.
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Small floor standers present low, so much so that they can be blocked by other furniture in the room and can be heavy to move. (They are more stable (had a 5 pound cat knock over 10" x 10" x 20" speaker on 12" high stands.)
Small woofers can lack mid-bass body.
Haven't heard them all, but all the Salk speakers I have heard (Soundscapes excluded) sound like a collection of drivers, a very incoherent presentation.
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Don't want to be a fanboy providing blowback; causing others to waste their time posting about it.
:green:
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Floorstanders do not have to = huge.
Vienna Acoustics Bach and Mozart
I have heard the VA Mozarts (http://www.vienna-acoustics.com/index.php/products/concert-grand-series/mozart-grand-symphony-edition) at a dealers and liked them a lot. I own the Haydns.
I heard the Joseph Audio Prism (http://www.josephaudio.com/prism/) and Profile (http://www.josephaudio.com/profile/) at CAP and absolutely loved them, particularly the Profile.
Or maybe something like the Larsen Model 4 (http://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/larsen-model-4-loudspeaker/)? A 9x10x30 footprint, goes to 30Hz and is only about $2k.
P.S. Oh, and must be placed against a wall.
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So a little analysis of some of the designs mentioned:
Vienna Acoustics Mozart: http://www.stereophile.com/content/vienna-acoustics-mozart-loudspeaker-measurements#1b451ceMzF4USwEK.97
Miserable.
Larsen: http://www.stereophile.com/content/larsen-hifi-8-loudspeaker-measurements#Wde3x1s1CjFVfqSo.97
Criminal?
Coincident models:
http://www.soundstage.com/measurements/coincident_total_eclipse/
http://www.stereophile.com/content/coincident-speaker-technology-troubador-loudspeaker-measurements#0y4gjTEho1HkpDIb.97
Perhaps try another occupation? I realize these are older models so perhaps he (Israel Blume) has improved. But the "pseudo" 6dB/octave design isn't doing him ANY favors. If his goal was a time coherent design, he failed miserably.
Joseph Audio Perspective: http://www.stereophile.com/content/joseph-audio-perspective-loudspeaker-measurements#VsccZc6dJuHjZZtl.97
Not bad and hopefully the Prism model mentioned earlier in this thread follows suit.
Still, it's not a JBL 705 or 708...it's not even in the same ballpark.
Think I'm being tough? Think again. Heh, it's just money right? Your money.
Best,
Anand.
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Maybe th OP doesn't listen to graphs?
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Another vote for Fritz Speakers (if you insist on passive loudspeakers). Full bodied sound, thrive with amps equipped with large power supplies, not treble leaning, great guy to work with.
IMO at this price point you're well into the diminishing returns range, with makes for another plug for Fritz as he specializes in monitors at and below this price range. Your taste should dictate far before your budget which of his monitors you prefer.
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Maybe th OP doesn't listen to graphs?
Perhaps continued efforts on some people's parts to encourage those to look a bit into what constitutes a 'good' loudspeaker. There is enough evidence these days to support which data is important and meaningful if it's available. Asking for opinions on what one should consider is great. Trusting anyone's take on how something sounds is pretty meaningless. This is what the industry is built on though.
Let the circle of confusion continue...
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Measurements smeasurements.
If a graph tells me a speaker sucks but my ears tell me it's wonderful, I'm going with my ears.
Some great sounding gear measures poorly. Example: SET amps.
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Measurements smeasurements.
If a graph tells me a speaker sucks but my ears tell me it's wonderful, I'm going with my ears.
Some great sounding gear measures poorly. Example: SET amps.
The graph provides a constant (presumably) and accurate, repeatable illustration of what a speaker is doing. On the other hand we choose to invest nearly all of our confidence in our ears. Yes!!! - those same ears that are not in the mood, have a cold, have been listening for 2 hours, are accustomed to and biased toward a particular sound signature. Those ears!
How about we flip this around and concede that we can, as humans, like anything. We (and our precious ears) are the mutable element in this experiment and perhaps there is more to be gained in adapting ourselves to what measures well rather than shopping the earth for products that entertain a capricious, arbitrary and spontaneously variable standard. How else can we govern and manage our progress? Will we get there by rotating through a series of popular new models favored by reviewers and/or the online cognescenti? Or will that approach foment endless lamentations about dead ends, fatal mistakes and wasted money? Isn't it time for us to take a more adult approach?
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...... Isn't it time for us to take a more adult approach?
Not if the adult approach means buying soley based on measurements, to the exclusion of what our ears prefer, and then being unhappy with the sound in the listening room.
Will we get there by rotating through a series of popular new models favored by reviewers and/or the online cognescenti?
No, I get there not by following opinion or purchasing the fan boys faves, but by having enough confidence in my ears and preferences and then choosing what sounds pleasing to ME .......after auditioning as wide an array of gear as possible.
I don't deny that measurements are a good starting point to develop a short list, but IMO if your ears don't make the final decision a mistake is being made.
Folks can choose in whatever way makes them feel comfortable. They don't need to be told how to do it.
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Measurements smeasurements.
If a graph tells me a speaker sucks but my ears tell me it's wonderful, I'm going with my ears.
Some great sounding gear measures poorly. Example: SET amps.
It's all about what one may want. If someone wants a certain characteristic to flavor all of their music then that is certainly their choice. I just don't want to be putting the same seasoning on everything whether it needs it or not. I'm not here to tell anyone that what sounds good to them is not good because that is all subjective perspective. What I do want is for people to be aware of some of the science and measurements which may help one in determining a neutral loudspeaker and thus give one a better chance at long term happiness.
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Hey folks, I have been more than happy with the help and resourcefulness of ALL the AC posters to this thread. I don't want to see my post hijacked. I value (and trust) both measurements and my ear, and I am grateful to knowledgeable enthusiasts who provide me with a good starting point -- and valuable technical/anecdotal insights -- into my investigations. There is room for ALL under the tent.
I can't ignore measurements, yet some great measuring speakers leave me somewhat cold. There is a balance to be struck here, and I think we all struggle to find it. Thank you to all who have given me some very critical leads as I begin my investigation. I think I will go into next year's AXPONA with a clear focus on looking solely at speakers that are designed/intended for a smaller living space. Will also try to find a pro dealer in the Chicago area who can provide demos of some of the leading active/studio monitors. I already have a leg up on this because of familiarity with my own KH120s.
I remain gratefully yours, -dB
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I can't ignore measurements, yet some great measuring speakers leave me somewhat cold. There is a balance to be struck here, and I think we all struggle to find it.
EXACTLY!
This is the point I've been struggling to make. You are much more articulate! :thumb:
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I've yet to hear a properly measured loudspeaker not be delightful subjectively. Why? That's mainly due to the fact that probably only 4 or so actually do proper measurements. "Goskers" certainly isn't saying to buy solely based on measurements. We did fly to CA to confirm that subjectively we liked what we saw objectively....once again proven right that there is definitely a very strong correlation. Dr. Geddes and Dr. Toole know something that nearly all neglect but yet think they know more. :scratch:
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It's all about what one may want. If someone wants a certain characteristic to flavor all of their music then that is certainly their choice. I just don't want to be putting the same seasoning on everything whether it needs it or not. I'm not here to tell anyone that what sounds good to them is not good because that is all subjective perspective. What I do want is for people to be aware of some of the science and measurements which may help one in determining a neutral loudspeaker and thus give one a better chance at long term happiness.
Your input is most appreciated, Goskers. I view all the insights provided merely as a starting point for listening to find what I want. As a former EE (long, long ago), I value quite highly a scientific approach to engineering design. Because of the "subjectivity of bliss," as you have noted, I want to find the best marriage of quality engineering and personal musical engagement. I have left out many of my personal preferences/biases here because I know what I like/dislike, but that doesn't help others if they don't hear things the same way.
Let the recommendations/insights (re-)commence!
-dB
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Your primary fixation in this pursuit is sound quality, it would seem. Your significant other holds a position dominated by concerns about appearance. Is that right so far?
Wouldn't it make sense then, assuming my previous two observations receive an affirmative nod, for you to seek out contenders that meet cosmetic (decorating) muster initially, and then pursue among those which sounds best to you.
My wife's complaints, before she gave up, always mentioned the "wires everywhere" and the sheer number of boxes in view.
Given those two complaints and my presumption that my wife is representative of the genre, I would recommend you investigate something like the KEF LS-50W or the Deviate Phantom. Both are modern, inconspicuous and hi-fi enough to represent a workable compromise. Likewise, both can operate with a very small amount of physical connection. Win/Win?Maybe!
Another technique that may serve you, advises you to have your heart set on something big and ugly that you really really must have. You're not getting any younger and these UGLY MFs MK IV have been on your bucket list since the beginning. Guilt trip her big time on this. Then present the "whatever you really want stand mount" to her as "fall on your sword sacrificial compromise". She will be so relieved not to have to live with the UGLY units that you will emerge as a wonderful man who understands her and cares for her beyond any question. Should help you on your way to those K&H 310 you should be considering.
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Here's the rub with measurements, two different speakers can measure the same and yet sound very different. One of them will be deemed preferable and the other inferior. Measurements are only a small part of a very big picture.
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Here's the rub with measurements, two different speakers can measure the same and yet sound very different. One of them will be deemed preferable and the other inferior. Measurements are only a small part of a very big picture.
It can be difficult to read the calorie count without considering the flavor.
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Here's the rub with measurements, two different speakers can measure the same and yet sound very different. One of them will be deemed preferable and the other inferior. Measurements are only a small part of a very big picture.
I've never seen two different manufacture loudspeakers measured properly (polar plots) the same. If you know of any, I'd love to see it. It's actually the quite the opposite too. It's the largest part!
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Here's the rub with measurements, two different speakers can measure the same and yet sound very different. One of them will be deemed preferable and the other inferior. Measurements are only a small part of a very big picture.
The question then becomes what are the measurements?
Until there is a standard with which all are needing to provide data for I don't see the merri-go-round stopping. Does anyone not find it a bit interesting that home audio has virtually no data available from all makers which has any correlation to sound quality?
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Another technique that may serve you, advises you to have your heart set on something big and ugly that you really really must have. You're not getting any younger and these UGLY MFs MK IV have been on your bucket list since the beginning. Guilt trip her big time on this. Then present the "whatever you really want stand mount" to her as "fall on your sword sacrificial compromise". She will be so relieved not to have to live with the UGLY units that you will emerge as a wonderful man who understands her and cares for her beyond any question. Should help you on your way to those K&H 310 you should be considering.
I have learned that I rarely win when I try to set up a "manipulation scenario". My wife is too smart for that. :lol: Besides, she has been indulgent about the huge stereo rack (and large-ish speakers) in our 15'x20' living room for many years now. If I move to actives, however, I can pretty much reduce to streamer -> DAC/preamp -> active speakers. No more rack, no more giant speaker cables cluttering things, no more Mac Mini (and drives) in the living room. With considerably less "clutter," I think the choice of speakers would be an easier sell....with the caveat that there is no going back. :lol: Plus, monitors are more flexible to adjust to room settings/placement, meaning I *could* put these in a corner of the room, instead of out in space where the "big monsters" are. We could alway put some fabric over the speaker stands and a great deal of the 'mess' would be obscured from her standpoint. This is an obvious space/complexity win.
My biggest challenge is how it will sound in the end. I mentioned previously that I have (smaller) KH120s in our downstairs A/V rig. Would larger KH/JBL models (for example) work for me in the main rig? Right now I am spoiled by a pair of "smooth-sounding" 96dB horn speakers. As always, the challenge with any speakers I audition is the potential for a shrill/uninvolving upper frequency spectrum. I think, if pressed, that I would admit to liking a neutral system.....with a touch of warmth. If I get even a tiny bit of harsh/icepick treble, it drives me to distraction in seconds. A lot of these upper eschelon monitors deliver "the truth". The question is: can I handle "the truth"?? I admit freely that I struggle with that. On every other level (except maybe WAF, but I'm sure I can find *something* that will work), an active monitor system is a theoretical win-win-win.
-dB
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Semi-related question: does anyone know of an outfit that would have high-end pro monitors in the Chicago area......to which I could actually *LISTEN* before purchasing?
Thanks, -dB
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Given where you are coming from (sweet speakers!) and how you describe your preferences, I'd put very big money on the fact that to be happy you will need to end up with a speaker that is generally described as having some or all of the following adjectives:
smooth
sweet
warm
involving
immersive
forgiving
musical
A speaker described as neutral, linear, accurate will not cut it for you. They are buzzwords for hi-fi, not emotion and musical involvement. You seem to be leaning this way for aesthetic reasons, but in the long run I suspect your ears will be unhappy.
Based on your posts and gear, I sense my tastes and preferences align with yours, and the above is what I've learned over the 20+ years I've been at this. IMHO, of course.
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Part of the problem with measurements is making sure that what you're measuring correlates with what we hear.
dburna:
All the Guitar Centers around me only have crap monitors and no good listening facilities.
Sweetwater seems to be one of the better ones, but is only in Fort Wayne, IN. Too far for you?
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Given where you are coming from (sweet speakers!) and how you describe your preferences, I'd put very big money on the fact that to be happy you will need to end up with a speaker that in he consensus view has some or all of the following adjectives attached to it:
smooth
sweet
warm
involving
immersive
forgiving
musical
A speaker described as neutral, linear, accurate will not cut it for you. They are buzzwords for hi-fi, not emotion and musical involvement. You seem to be leaning this way for aesthetic reasons, but in the long run I suspect your ears will be unhappy.
I sense my tastes and preferences align with yours, and this is what I've learned over the 20+ years I've been at this.
IMHO, of course.
Right on, which is why I try to be open to all options, but I am admittedly leery when I hear the phrases: all-metal domes, ribbons that go up to 50KHz, world-class tweeters, etc. I bet I covered 90+% of the rooms at AXPONA in a day, mainly because I was in/out of so many in less than a minute. I've been at this for 20+ years as well, and I can tell in a very short period whether something will work for me or not. That's a factor of making so many mistakes earlier in my audiophile tenure (Piega, I'm talking to you!).
So relaxed, forgiving, accurate (yet musical), involving.......can I find that in a studio monitor? Is that a path worth pursuing? Should I stick with a "Class A + higher-efficiency passive monitor"?? And if I go with a monitor, can I find a good, non-etched DAC (usually means R2R to these ears) with a volume control for less than an astronomical amount of $$$??? These are the questions that keep me up at night. First World problems. 8)
-dB
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Sweetwater seems to be one of the better ones, but is only in Fort Wayne, IN. Too far for you?
3+ hours one-way to Ft. Wayne. Not un-possible, but I would need to find a day when my ladies were out of town and I had the car. I must keep that in mind.
-dB
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So relaxed, forgiving, accurate (yet musical), involving.......can I find that in a studio monitor? Is that a path worth pursuing?
No idea....I've never dabbled in that world.
My gut and biases and most of what I've read say it's difficult, so I've had no real desire to do so.
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The KEF LS-50W is an active version of the enormously popular passive monitor. Reviews of the original abound and reviews of the active version indicate that the W presents all of that and more. I thought your wife might find their size and appearance appealing - if she can get past the woofer colors. These speakers have only an AC cord running from each to the wall and an ethernet cable running from the master (right side) to the slave (left speaker). Signal comes from Wi-Fi or bluetooth (wirelessly) or through several digital input options. Nothing else required. Wifey could see this as a very acceptable compromise. $2200/pair. Google them.
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Part of the problem with measurements is making sure that what you're measuring correlates with what we hear.
dburna:
All the Guitar Centers around me only have crap monitors and no good listening facilities.
Sweetwater seems to be one of the better ones, but is only in Fort Wayne, IN. Too far for you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM&feature=youtu.be&t=21m35s
There are also many papers to read too.
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deleted
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The KEF LS-50W is an active version of the enormously popular passive monitor. Reviews of the original abound and reviews of the active version indicate that the W presents all of that and more. I thought your wife might find their size and appearance appealing - if she can get past the woofer colors. These speakers have only an AC cord running from each to the wall and an ethernet cable running from the master (right side) to the slave (left speaker). Signal comes from Wi-Fi or bluetooth (wirelessly) or through several digital input options. Nothing else required. Wifey could see this as a very acceptable compromise. $2200/pair. Google them.
Given where he's coming from, I seriously doubt the OP will be sonically satisfied with these.
I have a local buddy who owned the passive KEF LS50, and he much preferred my JMR Twins (borrowed -- offered to buy them after auditioning in his rig) and the Omega Super 3 XRS he eventually bought.
He too has preferences that lie in the realm of musicality and tone. I never heard them but he said the KEF were comparatively "hi-fi'ish", and he was unable to connect emotionally with them.
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Given where he's coming from, I seriously doubt the OP will be sonically satisfied with these.
I have a local buddy who owned the passive KEF LS50, and he much preferred my JMR Twins (borrowed) and the Omega Super 3 XRS he eventually bought.
He too has preferences that lie in the realm of musicality and tone. I never heard them but he said the KEF were comparatively "hi-fi'ish", and he was unable to connect emotionally with them.
Was trying to stay out of this for the most part because nothing much good comes out of slagging someone else's favorite speakers. However, you are right on-the-money, Sunnydaze: KEF was one of the rooms that was "1 minute and done" for me at AXPONA.....for two years in a row. The less I say about their designs, the better, but I doubt that "activizing" a speaker I don't care for is going to improve it substantially. :roll: I'll say this, however: the KEFs *DO* have high WAF.
-dB
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...... but I doubt that "activizing" a speaker I don't care for is going to improve it substantially. :roll: I'll say this, however: the KEFs *DO* have high WAF.
-dB
Probably makes 'em worse -- you lose the ability to improve their sound with tubes. The lost flexibility of voicing and fine tuning with amp changes doesn't seem appealing to me. Especially when the amp you are locked into is digital.
No disrespect to the fans out there, I own one (Red Dragon S500).
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I have learned that I rarely win when I try to set up a "manipulation scenario". My wife is too smart for that. :lol: Besides, she has been indulgent about the huge stereo rack (and large-ish speakers) in our 15'x20' living room for many years now. If I move to actives, however, I can pretty much reduce to streamer -> DAC/preamp -> active speakers. No more rack, no more giant speaker cables cluttering things, no more Mac Mini (and drives) in the living room. With considerably less "clutter," I think the choice of speakers would be an easier sell....with the caveat that there is no going back. :lol: Plus, monitors are more flexible to adjust to room settings/placement, meaning I *could* put these in a corner of the room, instead of out in space where the "big monsters" are. We could alway put some fabric over the speaker stands and a great deal of the 'mess' would be obscured from her standpoint. This is an obvious space/complexity win.
My biggest challenge is how it will sound in the end. I mentioned previously that I have (smaller) KH120s in our downstairs A/V rig. Would larger KH/JBL models (for example) work for me in the main rig? Right now I am spoiled by a pair of "smooth-sounding" 96dB horn speakers. As always, the challenge with any speakers I audition is the potential for a shrill/uninvolving upper frequency spectrum. I think, if pressed, that I would admit to liking a neutral system.....with a touch of warmth. If I get even a tiny bit of harsh/icepick treble, it drives me to distraction in seconds. A lot of these upper eschelon monitors deliver "the truth". The question is: can I handle "the truth"?? I admit freely that I struggle with that. On every other level (except maybe WAF, but I'm sure I can find *something* that will work), an active monitor system is a theoretical win-win-win.
-dB
If I were starting over from scratch, and had to spend the same amount of money on a single, streamlined system I might consider a pair of highish efficiency speakers (e.g., Omega) and a Vinnie Rossi LIO. for about $10k retail you would have an all-in-one system. The LIO is available with a built-in DAC and a 25wpc mosfet amp. You can also power a microrendu off it it as well. You end up with a three-box solution (electronics + 2 speakers) that would be hard to beat. I've heard someone else with modified Klipshorns, Border Patrol amps, and a Lampizator say he would do the same thing if starting over.
Many of us have a lot more than $10k in our systems.
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Was trying to stay out of this for the most part because nothing much good comes out of slagging someone else's favorite speakers. However, you are right on-the-money, Sunnydaze: KEF was one of the rooms that was "1 minute and done" for me at AXPONA.....for two years in a row. The less I say about their designs, the better, but I doubt that "activizing" a speaker I don't care for is going to improve it substantially. :roll: I'll say this, however: the KEFs *DO* have high WAF.
-dB
i think we have similar musical tastes ..I heard the offrande and thought the were real good the kef not so much ,,my two cents of course
the devore super 9 is a nice floor stander with a small foot print and great sound
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....another vote for Fritz....great driver selections....nicely executed x-over....and really gorgeous boxes.....and because they are a direct sale great value.....
Cheers
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If I were starting over from scratch, and had to spend the same amount of money on a single, streamlined system I might consider a pair of highish efficiency speakers (e.g., Omega) and a Vinnie Rossi LIO. The LIO is available with a built-in DAC and a 25wpc mosfet amp. You can also power a microrendu off it it as well. You end up with a three-box solution (electronics + 2 speakers) that would be hard to beat. I've heard someone else with modified Klipshorns, Border Patrol amps, and a Lampizator say he would do the same thing if starting over.
Many of us have a lot more than $10k in our systems.
Speaking of which.....
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=150200.0
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Speaking of which.....
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=150200.0
I had that one in mind when I wrote it. If I hadn't spent over $5K in Dennis Had gear in the last year it might have been finding its way to my house.
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I don't have a specific recommendation, but I find charts like this helps bridge the gaps between what is measured, what is heard, what is listened to, and what is preferred.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162105)
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dburna,
Based on your description, and knowing that your budget may go beyond $3k, I suggest:
1. Omega speakers and whatever amps/dacs you already have. I've heard two versions. (Alinico & RS5 drivers) Both are great.
2. A pair of Devialet Phantom Gold with Dialog. Yes, they can be a bit wiggy to set up but if you get them set up properly, they are amazing and goes down to 20hz. Sounds great at low volume too. No risk as you get 45 days trial. This is the smallest solution in a full range and has plenty of detail/transient speed if you stay with the Gold version. Forget about the Silver or Whites. Get the overpriced $140 remote too. Many have dumped their $20K or more rigs for a pair of these at under $7K full retail.
3. Try the KEF LS50 Wireless. Yes, I did not like the passive LS50 either, but the LS50 wireless is widely touted as being much better. I've yet to hear a pair but intend to.
I am doing some future research for a few years down the road. In order to please the Mrs. (aka: She Who Must Be Obeyed), I am most likely going to go from floorstanding to monitor speakers when we become empty nesters....as I know SWMBO is going to want us to get smaller digs.
As such, I've decided to begin a long-term search to find a monitor that I can put on a stand and move into place during listening hours (and put away when they are not in use). Going to save up so I can wait patiently for the right speakers and pounce when the price is right. Am looking for monitors that are not a huge sonic compromise despite a compact form factor. Some things I am looking for:
1. Decent low extension: doesn't have to be below 40Hz, but at least around there
2. Revealing but never shrill -- I am really sensitive aesthetically to digititis and glare
3. Fast, responsive....but most of all MUSICAL.
4. All things being equal, high efficiency is better than low....but I know that this is usually one of the compromises of monitor speakers.
5. Neutral, maybe just a tinge to the warm side
6. No overt cabinet colorations. Was just at AXPONA 2017 and the Harbeths and Audio Note speakers ring (as they were designed). Just to be sure it wasn't my hearing, I put my hand on the cabinet as they were playing and....my hearing is fine. I find that sound distracting, despite the obvious merits of these two speaker lines.
7. Nice cosmetics (to please SWMBO). You know, nothing with antlers, antennae, or massive Avantgarde horn speaker protuberances. :lol:
8. Would prefer something that didn't need a sub.
9. Would prefer something that sounded good at low volumes.
10. Would prefer something that could be used near room boundaries (side/back walls) without horrific sonic compromises.
11. Would like to stay at/around $3k, new or used. Could go higher, but may not want to unless the fit is ideal.
Am thinking that ultimately I would pair this with something like the new Pass XA25 (which is coming out as an integrated version in the fall-ish timeframe). Right now, would consider some new Fritz Carrera BEs, new/used Odyssey Kismets, used WLM Diva, used SP Tech/Aethers, etc. I am thinking that Salks are not for me -- I have heard them multiple times at shows and liked (but never loved) them.
With some of the above speakers as potential guidelines for my taste, what do folks suggest I check out? Any hidden gems that I may have missed?
Thanks in advance for your input, -dB
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I've yet to hear a properly measured loudspeaker not be delightful subjectively. Why? That's mainly due to the fact that probably only 4 or so actually do proper measurements. "Goskers" certainly isn't saying to buy solely based on measurements. We did fly to CA to confirm that subjectively we liked what we saw objectively....once again proven right that there is definitely a very strong correlation. Dr. Geddes and Dr. Toole know something that nearly all neglect but yet think they know more. :scratch:
Floyd Toole's book is good to read for anyone wanting more information. Here's a link that is also worthwhile to check out. A good point made in this interview is that the current approach taken at Harman actually deviates some from what Toole's mid 80's research showed to be the more desirable speakers. http://www.tnt-audio.com/intervis/david_smith_e.html
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dburna,
3. Try the KEF LS50 Wireless. Yes, I did not like the passive LS50 either, but the LS50 wireless is widely touted as being much better. I've yet to hear a pair but intend to.
An audiophile on Facebook under Acoustat speakrs said his wireless LS50's were not in the same league as his Acoustat 1's and 2+2's. He recently bought the 1's for 400 Bucks. IMO keep recommend the new Omegas.
My buddy Rex says his Omega HO Monitors is much better than his passive KEF LS50's were.
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I can't ignore measurements, yet some great measuring speakers leave me somewhat cold.
I would be grateful if you could cite specific models so I can check out the measurements.
Soundwaves>ears correlation to SQ is of interest to me, thanks.
cheers,
AJ
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I don't have a specific recommendation, but I find charts like this helps bridge the gaps between what is measured, what is heard, what is listened to, and what is preferred.
How does one use this chart?
Where do you prefer to omit or enhance and how?
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Here's a link that is also worthwhile to check out. A good point made in this interview is that the current approach taken at Harman actually deviates some from what Toole's mid 80's research showed to be the more desirable speakers. http://www.tnt-audio.com/intervis/david_smith_e.html
Hi Rick, I just read it and didn't see that. Are you referring to ex JBL guy David Smith claiming so?
cheers,
AJ
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I second the Joseph Audio Prisms and Omega Speaker System's newest monitors are a significant step up over there already excellent monitors.
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Hi Rick, I just read it and didn't see that. Are you referring to ex JBL guy David Smith claiming so?
cheers,
AJ
In David Smith's interview he noted that Toole was advocating for constant directivity designs but his earlier blind tests had highly rated speakers that would not be considered to fall into that category (well-behaved off-axis, but not in the same manner as say the JBL M2). I would tend to agree with Smith based on my own experience.
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I would be grateful if you could cite specific models so I can check out the measurements.
Soundwaves>ears correlation to SQ is of interest to me, thanks.
cheers,
AJ
Well, I am loathe to start "naming names," but since you asked......from AXPONA, just off the top of my head, the ATC SCM19A and the giant JBL speaker shown (Everest?) fall into that category. Salks of most varieties, as another poster mentioned. KEF LS50.
Hope this helps, -dB
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Well, I am loathe to start "naming names," but since you asked......from AXPONA, just off the top of my head, the ATC SCM19A and the giant JBL speaker shown (Everest?) fall into that category. Salks of most varieties, as another poster mentioned. KEF LS50.
Hope this helps, -dB
Thanks very helpful. Well, I couldn't find any measurements for the ATC...but it's a cone 'n dome zero directivity control affair. I don't need to see the measurements to know what that is going to look like...and would not characterize that type resulting polar response as "good".
OTOH, the KEF, imo, measures well (smooth on/off axis, etc) and I've heard them myself. They are of course a small standmount coaxials and at shows, often tend to be way overdriven, in attempts to impress the crowd with sheer output. What are your specific criticisms of them, if you don't mind, thanks?
cheers,
AJ
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OTOH, the KEF, imo, measures well and I've heard them myself. They are of course a small standmount coaxials and at shows, often tend to be way overdriven, in attempts to impress the crowd with sheer output. What are your specific criticisms of them, if you don't mind, thanks?
cheers,
AJ
I will take this offline with you. Some folks just love these speakers and I don't wish to offend anyone. Could be the "overdriven at shows" phenomenon. I am open to hearing them in a different context.
-dB
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Some folks just love these speakers and I don't wish to offend anyone. Could be the "overdriven at shows" phenomenon. I am open to hearing them in a different context.
Understood. Yes, was expecting some blowback from the ATC fanclub on that one ;-).
However, I made no comment on their sound whatsoever. That is a purely subjective realm.
I was dealing strictly with measured response first, so that we could then try to correlate to either good/bad sound experiences. I found measurements for both LS50 and similar driver compliment ATC, so the comparisons again, would have been in that realm only.
No intent to step on "subjective" toes.
cheers,
AJ
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I will take this offline with you. Some folks just love these speakers and I don't wish to offend anyone. Could be the "overdriven at shows" phenomenon. I am open to hearing them in a different context.
-dB
I don't think there's anything wrong with giving your honest opinion. That's what these boards are for.
If some insecure being gets offended by that, I say "grow up, get a life"! :roll:
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Another for the list: Vandersteen VLR. Reviewed and compared with the LS50 at Tone Audio (http://www.tonepublications.com/magazine/issue-75/).
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Hey.
If you think about going active you owe to yourself to hear the Neauman line. Lot of history there. I work in the live world and a lot of trucks and studios use these. On the passive front you really should hear the Evolution Acoustics micro ones.
Both of these speakers are in your price range and by my standards sound better then most.
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Neumann (http://www.neumann.com/?id=monitors&lang=en)
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Yes. Sorry I spelled it wrong. But yes they are great monitors. I have never been a huge jbl fan. I think they are good engineers but in my opinion only their high dollar stuff sounds good. I work in the industry and have to say I don't really see there stuff anywhere. Their new high dollar pa gear sounds very good and I think that's where the real money is for them.
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Hey.
If you think about going active you owe to yourself to hear the Neauman line. Lot of history there. I work in the live world and a lot of trucks and studios use these.
Neumann (http://www.neumann.com/?id=monitors&lang=en)
Yup and yup. In fact, I own a pair of Neumann KH120A's in our basement A/V room. Never tried them in the big rig.....probably because I am scared I would never take them out again. :lol:
-dB
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Yup and yup. In fact, I own a pair of Neumann KH120A's in our basement A/V room. Never tried them in the big rig.....probably because I am scared I would never take them out again. :lol:
-dB
Wouldn't that be a good thing?
Seems to meet your goals: downsize, simplify, reduce clutter. Added bonus -- sell the Hornings, put a ton of green in the bank and still have great sound! :thumb:
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Wouldn't that be a good thing?
Seems to meet your goals: downsize, simplify, reduce clutter. Added bonus -- sell the Hornings, put a ton of green in the bank and still have great sound! :thumb:
Yes, it would be an ideal way to take money out of my system and put it into savings......except, as much as I like the KH120's, they are emphatically NOT as good as the Hornings. The Hornings are sublime -- best audio investment I ever made, hands down. I listen to the newer versions at audio shows (and when I go to NY), and they are definitely better, but not enough that I think of changing out mine. Even if I did sub in the KH120's, I'd still need a replacement for the downstairs A/V system. In short, I am considering options to replace the Hornings some day.....but I'm not happy about it. :lol:
-dB
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Given your size requirements and budget, I very strongly suspect you will be unable to match SQ of your Hornings. So if that is your goal, I believe you will fail. Sorry.
You'll probably need to adjust your expectations, but I do believe you can come close....or at least get something that is musically satisfying. If it were me:
(1) I'd get a super musical and attractive standmount or small floorstander (to meet budget and aesthetic requirements)
(2) high pass them to remove the LF and make them even better, top to bottom. The improvement is significant such that it sounds like you significantly upgraded your mains.
(3) add a sub (or two) and blend it in at roughly your high pass point.
Doesn't have to be expensive. For example, I use Gallo CL-10 sub. Underwood Wally was closing them out over the summer at $450, which means they will start appearing used at $300 or so, maybe less. Nice thing about this sub is it has a High Pass filter built into it, no need to add another piece of gear. IMO, it's a VG sub -- fast, articulate, musical. I find it very easy to blend in all the situations I've tried it in. The 12 incher should be even better.
Running my Omegas and Reynauds this way sounds VG indeed. I know two other guys that do the same with their Gallo subs and Omega speakers (Super 3 XRS and Super Alnico Monitors), and love it. Much better than running mains full range, and supplementing bottom with sub.
Just a thought. I know the sub will add a little clutter, but it can usually be discretely placed.
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Hey dburna -- get these!
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/monitors-jm-reynaud-bliss-silver-speakers-magic-stands-2017-05-11-speakers-11727-coram-ny
Right in my backyard....If you don't I might! 8)
Musical speaker that hits all points on your checklist. Add a nice sub, you are still way under budget.
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Given your size requirements and budget, I very strongly suspect you will be unable to match SQ of your Hornings. So if that is your goal, I believe you will fail. Sorry.
You'll probably need to adjust your expectations, but I do believe you can come close....or at least get something that is musically satisfying. If it were me:
(1) I'd get a super musical and attractive standmount or small floorstander (to meet budget and aesthetic requirements)
(2) high pass them to remove the LF and make them even better, top to bottom. The improvement is significant such that it sounds like you significantly upgraded your mains.
(3) add a sub (or two) and blend it in at roughly your high pass point.
Doesn't have to be expensive. For example, I use Gallo CL-10 sub. Underwood Wally was closing them out over the summer at $450, which means they will start appearing used at $300 or so, maybe less. Nice thing about this sub is it has a High Pass filter built into it, no need to add another piece of gear. IMO, it's a VG sub -- fast, articulate, musical. I find it very easy to blend in all the situations I've tried it in. The 12 incher should be even better.
Running my Omegas and Reynauds this way sounds VG indeed. I know two other guys that do the same with their Gallo subs and Omega speakers (Super 3 XRS and Super Alnico Monitors), and love it. Much better than running mains full range, and supplementing bottom with sub.
Just a thought. I know the sub will add a little clutter, but it can usually be discretely placed.
I agree with this approach. I employ a similar (maybe superior?) approach in one of my systems: I have a pair of Omega Super Alnico Monitors (11" x 14" x 20") sitting on top of a pair of Rhythmik F8 Low Inertia subwoofers (2 x 8" servo, 11" x 15.5" x 20"). The Rhythmik subs can cross over as high as 200hz, which mates perfectly with the Omega's. Each "speaker" is 11" x 15" x 40" and can be moved more easily than a floorstander. I bought everything secondhand so my price was $2,500 total.
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Sold already. Knew it was a great deal. Second time I've missed the Bliss at a great price. :duh:
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Sold already. Knew it was a great deal. Second time I've missed the Bliss at a great price. :duh:
I was going to suggest that you buy these ASAP.....so that when GAS hit in a couple years you could sell them to me for even less. :lol: Honestly, I would be severely tempted by these, but I think it's a little too early for my long-term search.
Sunnydaze, I am giving serious consideration to hiring you as my audio consigiliere. :thumb: It sounds like you have very similar tastes and preferences, a good ear, and a keen eye on the used marketplace (never a bad thing, IMO). Your earlier message about getting standmounts and a sub (or a similar FR active monitor) is exactly where I will go if I can't make it work with the Hornings. Given I like them so much, I am going to do everything I can to keep them. Am looking at some changes to reduce the box headcount so I only need perhaps a low two-level stand. Once I get rid of the big honkin' audio rack, I can move the Hornings closer to the wall to lessen the space they take up (the US distributor tells me that I can do this with only slight sonic compromise). If this doesn't increase WAF-friendliness enough, then it's on to the monitor sub solution.
I have a Martin Logan sealed/servo sub in the A/V system. It's pretty fast, I think, because it was designed to keep up with the ML 'stats. I just have to look to see if it has bypass capability so I can relieve any monitors of LF responsibilities. If so, I am most of the way there.
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.......I have a Martin Logan sealed/servo sub in the A/V system. It's pretty fast, I think, because it was designed to keep up with the ML 'stats. I just have to look to see if it has bypass capability so I can relieve any monitors of LF responsibilities. If so, I am most of the way there.
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If it doesn't you can use Harrison filters. My buddy uses them to high-pass his Omega Super Alnico Monitors.
See this thread for a detailed discussion (start at Reply #18):
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=147003.0
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That's good to hear Sunnydaze. I should try that with my own SAM's.
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Been doing mostly online research right now. In my price range (or slightly above) for active monitors, the two that stand out to me are the JBL LSR708 and the Neumann KH310A. I definitely want to explore these before committing to a more traditional (amp + passive speakers) route. From a price standpoint, the active system will likely be a cheaper option for me, because if I went "traditional," I'd probably opt for a Pass integrated + monitors. The Pass alone (even used) is about the same price as the active speakers.
But here's the thing that gives me pause w.r.t. active designs: volume control. I have a single-ended Tortuga Audio LDR (which is great!), but if a network streamer->DAC is going to drive active speakers over a 10ft. cable, I have a concern about going with single-ended. Honestly, I don't know the (practical) limits of running a single-ended cable, but I thought in general it is 1-2m or so. Otherwise, I'm going to have to find a DAC/streamer with volume control, which limits options because I'd like to stay with a NOS/R2R DAC. Not inclined to put big, big dollars into a DAC because of the relentless improvement in DAC technology.
And, of course, there's the amplification thing. I don't imagine that either the built-in KH Class AB amps or the JBL Class D amps are going to sound as good as a Pass Class A amp. As far as this goes, I imagine it's a trade-off between amp quality vs. the advantages that an active design brings to optimize the use of each amp.
Any thoughts on either a musical DAC with a (non-sucktacular) volume control or a great volume control that can drive long-ish distances? It seems like a change to active monitors may entail changing my front end as well, so this is not a small step for me. I want to make sure I have done the homework necessary to "get it right" (at least substantially) out-of-the-gate.
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There's nothing wrong with a 10ft single ended cable. Besides most audiophile gear that uses XLR connectors is single ended anyways, and/or not designed at all so the shield does anything.
My problem with active speakers is trying to find an amp good enough in them. I think it would be hard to beat a Pass amp.
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If I were to buy today, I would buy the Omega 3 HO Monitors with the DAC SMT integrated. This will beat any active under 6K today. Total retail is 2500. Add the 36v power supply to the SMT to get it up to 3K.
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DAC with volume control = DAC/preamp
Check out audiostream.com for a good listing of DAC/preamps. Mytek Brooklyn or Benchmark DAC3 HGC come to mind at around $2000 usd. Both are compact, solid performers and have XLR outputs, headphone outputs, and remote. If you want to save money you could pick up a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core for $900 usd (street price) that adds DSP (XLR inputs/outputs but no headphone amp). Or to really save look at the Emotiva DC-1 for $500 that also has XLR outputs, headphone outputs, and remote. Note that I've owned the DC-1 and upgraded to the DSPeaker.
Of course this would be another consolidation of components and add to any concern over putting multiple eggs in one basket, but boy you'd be down to a very simple system.
Keep in mind that XLR cables are self shielded by design, so long runs is not an issue and that they are all but immune to the crazy audiophile boutique cable claims/prices. I just extravagently spent $138 usd for a pair of well regarded 10ft Best-Tronic XLR cables to connect to my active monitors to replace my $20/pair 15ft Monoprice XLR cables, just to sleep better at night I guess.
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If I were to buy today, I would buy the Omega 3 HO Monitors with the DAC SMT integrated. This will beat any active under 6K today. Total retail is 2500. Add the 36v power supply to the SMT to get it up to 3K.
Are you referring to the Digital Amplifier Company STM integrated? Or something else?
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Check out Philharmonic Audio.
Very well crafted speakers