AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Discless Circle => Topic started by: mresseguie on 5 Feb 2019, 01:25 pm
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I do believe this is the correct circle for this:
I'm in the market for a well made and quiet - yet not overly expensive USB to SPDif converter or interface. I have spent a bit of time and effort researching different brands, and I've contacted a few manufacturers. What I haven't tracked down much are comments and opinions from fellow audiophiles.
Have you used USB to SPDiF converters? Which do you like? Which do you dislike?
Here's a list of the ones that look appealing to me:
Ciunas Audio ISO-SPDIF - isolated USB to SPDIF converter - supercapacitor power https://www.ciunas.biz/product-page/iso-spdif
CI Audio Transient MKII Asynchronous USB Converter (plus a power supply) https://ciaudio.com/product/transient-mkii-asynchronous-usb-converter
Singxer SU-6 https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/singxer-su-6-usb-digital-interface-xmos-xu208-cpld-femtosecond-clock-ship-interface.html
Analogue Research Technology Legato http://www.ar-t.co/oldLEGATO.html
Schiit Eitr http://www.schiit.com/products/eitr
Small Green Computer SonicTransporter+ultraRendu+ultraDigital combo https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/music-players/products/ps-audio-i2s-bundle-ultrarendu-ultradigital-7v-linear-power-supply
M2Tech HiFace EVO 2 Advanced USB to SPDIF Stereo adapter with Remote https://www.m2techusa.com/collections/frontpage/products/hi-face-evo-2-advanced-pc-to-stereo-adapter-span-style-color-ff0000-new-span
SW1X USB to SPDiF II Converter http://sw1xad.co.uk/product/usb-2/
I'm exhausted just from typing and cutting and pasting.
Anyone have any experience or impressions of any of the above converters?
Lastly, there are a couple other options. One is to simply buy a server/streamer that has USB input and SPDiF output - the Salk Streamer comes to mind. Another option is to buy an inexpensive converter and to buy a new CDT. I'd use the CDT to play my CDs and my Mac Mini to stream TIDAL. I may subscribe to Roon very soon.
Any help and any suggestions are appreciated. :thumb:
Michael
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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It's often hard for me to figure out where a thread should go on AC, but I'm pretty sure this topic will be better served in the Discless Circle as Least Resistance is for cables. I'll move it over for you.
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I picked up a Wyred4Sound (https://wyred4sound.com/products/clearance-0) a bit over a month ago for a secondary system where I have a Hegel 190 Integrated/DAC/Streamer. The USB on the Hegel is limited and DLNA doesn't work that great via ethernet on DSD files (converts it to crap and skips). I've not tried any of the others and the secondary system doesn't see tons of use.
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I have no experience whatsoever with the Topping d10, but it looks like it might be a good option: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-topping-d10-dac.2470/
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I know how seriously jkeny takes minimizing noise in his products so the Ciunas would get my vote, but that SW1X, wow, that's a whole other level. I didn't even know you could make a master clock with tubes. I would absolutely buy another converter to compare if I got that one. At that price, it better flatten the competition.
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I used a cheapie usb-spdif converter (Teralink) for about 2 years.
I then picked up an M2Tech HiFace 2. Much better, used that for 5-6 years. Seemed comparatively quieter, and never clicked when changing resolution.
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I own and have used the CI Audio in my office system. It works and sounds great. I would recommend this be on your short list.
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The Gustard U16 should be on your list.
That said, I like Schiit Eitr as it sounds really good. But I would like to try the Gustard U16 or the Singxer SU6.
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ALLO digione signature is great
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Mike,
I have been using the Mutec MC-3+ USB (https://www.mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus-usb.php) for over a year now. It reclocks, converts from USB to SPDIF, and will resample DSD streams to 176 kHz PCM. It works up to 192 kHz. It has been quite favorably reviewed by pro audio magazines and online audiophile sites.
I thought it improved the imaging in my system, compared to a direct USB connection. The Mutec also has been reliable. I can't comment on the resampling function, which I haven't tried.
It is about $1200 new; I found a used one for about $725.
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I used a Bryston BUC-1 between my desktop and a Schiit Modi. It greatly improved the depth and weight of notes in good recordings. The BUC-1's construction was awesome too- very heavy with stout connections. I kind of regret selling it now, but my consumer grade desktop was such a terrible source, it didn't make sense to keep the BUC once I moved to a Salk Streamplayer II.
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I use the Schiit Eitr in between my laptop and Rega DAC. Definite improvement over USB. My DAC’s USB input has been criticized and it doesn’t do high res. The Eitr improved the sound in every way without any trade offs. It wasn’t a jaw dropping change like hifi rags like to write about, but definitely noteworthy.
Funny thing is, I don’t see many USB-Coax converter A/B comparisons done. I have no idea if there’s big differences between them or if people are buying something with a budget (high or low) in mind and more or less calling it a day.
Everyone here (including me) talked about what they own, not what they auditioned and how they chose. I’ll be honest, Schiit has gotten great reviews overall, the Eitr has gotten great reviews, it wasn’t Amazon Basics cheap and was worth trying out for me due to the return policy and the $179 price. Is it better than a $20 one? No clue. Is a $1k one better? No clue. It looks pretty, it’s made in the USA, and it sounds better than my DAC’s USB. So I’m calling it a day.
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+1 on the Gustard U16 recommendation! I have been using one for the last month or so, and it makes my digital sound glorious.
In second place, a Matrix X-SPDIF2 sounds great too, but you need to power it via an UpTone Audio LPS1.2 linear power supply.
Either solution (I use the AES/EBU output) blew the doors off of just having my MacBook Pro connected to my Metrum Onyx DAC directly via USB. It’s not even close!
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A big thumbs up to everyone who responded. :thumb:
I see a couple suggested converters that I hadn't known about. I'll add them to my growing list to research. Between asking here, in email with other audiophiles, and on other audiophile forums. I've found what Stu Pitt mentioned. Almost everyone who has a converter likes theirs, but that's the only converter they've tried. This isn't a criticism; it's an anecdotal observation. Furthermore, just about every manufacturer I've exchanged emails with has declared their converter to be the best product out there. This, of course, wasn't a surprise. :wink:
I do not understand the technology involved in taking a USB signal and converting it into a SPDiF signal. I don't know how easy or complex an operation it is. Before I began this quest, I had naively assumed the conversion was as simple as adding an adapter onto the end of a USB cord and tossing in a resistor or two. :oops: Well, it seems it's not so simple. One thing that seems to keep coming up is the importance of having a quiet power source. I've never seen the inside of any of the converters, so I really have no idea what's inside.
Stu,
I may well decide to order two or three converters to compare them - assuming there are decent return policies. If so, I will post my candid impressions. I don't have a bottomless wallet, so they wouldn't all the the top of the line, most expensive models. The Schiit Eitr would be one because of its low price (and my curiosity!). Do these converters need to burn in for 50 hours before they sound right??
My new DAC ought to be finished by the end of this month or the first week in March. It won't be delivered until a couple days after I return from Taiwan. With luck, I will persuade Slawa to burn it in for that week or so in order that I may avoid that chore.
Michael
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A big thumbs up to everyone who responded. :thumb:
I see a couple suggested converters that I hadn't known about. I'll add them to my growing list to research. Between asking here, in email with other audiophiles, and on other audiophile forums. I've found what Stu Pitt mentioned. Almost everyone who has a converter likes theirs, but that's the only converter they've tried. This isn't a criticism; it's an anecdotal observation. Furthermore, just about every manufacturer I've exchanged emails with has declared their converter to be the best product out there. This, of course, wasn't a surprise. :wink:
I do not understand the technology involved in taking a USB signal and converting it into a SPDiF signal. I don't know how easy or complex an operation it is. Before I began this quest, I had naively assumed the conversion was as simple as adding an adapter onto the end of a USB cord and tossing in a resistor or two. :oops: Well, it seems it's not so simple. One thing that seems to keep coming up is the importance of having a quiet power source. I've never seen the inside of any of the converters, so I really have no idea what's inside.
Stu,
I may well decide to order two or three converters to compare them - assuming there are decent return policies. If so, I will post my candid impressions. I don't have a bottomless wallet, so they wouldn't all the the top of the line, most expensive models. The Schiit Eitr would be one because of its low price (and my curiosity!). Do these converters need to burn in for 50 hours before they sound right??
My new DAC ought to be finished by the end of this month or the first week in March. It won't be delivered until a couple days after I return from Taiwan. With luck, I will persuade Slawa to burn it in for that week or so in order that I may avoid that chore.
Michael
People are going to disagree, but I don’t believe in electronics “burning in.” Moving parts such as speaker drivers and turntable cartridges, yes; but electronics, no. I do think it takes a while for the brain to sort out the subtleties of what a piece is doing though. Brand new capacitors may benefit from a few cycles of holding and releasing a charge like a new rechargeable battery does, but I find that a bit of a stretch.
My opinion isn’t popular. People will say they’ve heard dramatic differences at different points in time. All I say is trust your own ears and be your own judge.
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Not sure if my experience will be of any help to you but I have 3 USB-SPDIF converters .. Schiit Eitr, Bel Canto mLink, and a SOtM 2-box affair. None of these were terribly expensive and honestly, they all sound good. As usual, synergy with the rest of your gear will be a deciding factor. For example, while the USB input on my MHDT Lab Pagoda sounds fine, I prefer its BNC input. The mLink is bus-powered and BNC terminated. A perfect fit. The signal chain:
microRendu (SGC 7V psu) > mLink > Pagoda
The mLink is getting a bit long in the tooth and I seriously questioned if it would be up to the task. Well, not only is it up to the task, but having it in the mix results in the best sound quality I’ve heard in my system thus far. Not to be overlooked in this equation is the quality of the USB stream coming into the converter. I think enough has been written about Sonore’s microRendu there’s little need to elaborate further. Suffice it to say its importance to my sonic bliss cannot be overstated.
If I were to start over and cost wasn’t a factor I would be looking at the Berkeley converter. Many still consider it to be the best and I’d love to hear one in my system. BTW, I still use the Eitr in my headphone system (Schiit stack) and the SOtM has been relegated to storage.
Best of luck.
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On the subject of liking what we own...
It’s very difficult to expect any one piece of audio gear to work for everyone. As stated above, system synergy is a major factor. I’ve had the Singxer F1 for a bit, and didn’t like it because it sounded bloated in the midbass and lacked the transparency I desired. I then moved to a DXIO Pro3z. It too had the XMOS USB chip like the Singxer F1, but the Pro3z uses the XMOS 216 chip vs. the 208. The Pro3z was also more easily externally powered with its DC input jack. The Pro3z powered by the LPS as the F1, but at 5.8v was far superior in every way. I ran the Pro3z for years...until it died one day. Until this point, the XMOS based SPDIF converters won me over.
When the Pro3z died, I was quickly reminded why buying Chinese (no offense meant) audio gear has a big drawback. You almost can’t get anything repaired or even easily replaced under warranty. So I decided that for myself, I will no longer purchase any audio gear not serviced in the USA. With this in mind, I decided to try the Schiit Eitr. I was lucky to find a used one for $110.
The Eitr was an interesting change from the Singxer’s I tried. First, you can’t really upgrade the power supply. It’s a 6v AC power supply, so no LPS is going to work. It does require USB buss power, but it’s main power is the external supply. What’s interesting about the Eitr is that it will go into standby if the USB buss power is off. I like this because I don’t ever turn my LPS off, so the Pro3z was powered up 24/7 posssibly contributing to its premature death. I don’t know.
In comparison, the Eitr’s presentation was rather different from the Pro3z. The Pro3z sounded amazing in that it was very smooth and analog sounding. It was very clean sounding with great transparency. The sense of depth and dimension was extremely good. I could only fault it in saying that I always felt the treble was on the side of slightly too reserved. The midrange and bass was exceptional with rich tone and fantastic definition. I really loved the sound.
The Eitr upon first listen seemed to lack dynamics, and sounded reserved overall. But there was something still really good about it. Here’s what’s weird. I have tried quite a few USB cables over the years, and my favorite for the money was always a Paul Pang Red. I’m not sure why I experiment so much, but I’m glad I do sometimes. For whatever reason, I decided to try a USB from the past that I just kept because it was only $20; a Pangea copper .5m. I never liked this cable, and I should have returned it when I could have. I was absolutely shocked at what I heard. The Eitr was now sounding amazing; seriously AMAZING. Dynamics surpassed the Pro3z, and the clarity and transparency was every bit as good. The sense of depth and dimension might not be quite as good, but it’s still really good and I wouldn’t complain. Still, the overall presentation is still different than I had with the Pro3z. Now I’d say the treble is fantastic; very metallic, defined, delicate, and extended. It’s never bright or in your face. The midrange is as good if not better than the Pro3z in that vocals like Cassandra Wilson have this amazing tone and texture that is so realistic sounding. The bass is very good, but I don’t beleive it’s as nicely defined and textured as the Pro3z was. It’s still just fine, and many times I wouldn’t complain about anything I hear, but I have heard better. The Eitr also isn’t as smooth sounding, but there is not really anything grainy either. It’s again that I’ve heard something “better,” but I’m still very happy with the Eitr.
I personally think it’s not going to be easy to best the Eitr in my system. I’m looking forward to Schiit’s new ground up designed for audio USB implementation that’s coming this year. I will try that once it gets here. I would like to try the Singxer U6 or the Gustard U16, but only if I could easily return them or borrow them.
To me, the Eitr is a fantastic deal for the money. It’s supported in the USA. Plus it loves my cheapest USB cable. Who wouldn’t love that?
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A big thumbs up to everyone who responded. :thumb:
I see a couple suggested converters that I hadn't known about. I'll add them to my growing list to research. Between asking here, in email with other audiophiles, and on other audiophile forums. I've found what Stu Pitt mentioned. Almost everyone who has a converter likes theirs, but that's the only converter they've tried. This isn't a criticism; it's an anecdotal observation. Furthermore, just about every manufacturer I've exchanged emails with has declared their converter to be the best product out there. This, of course, wasn't a surprise. :wink:
Some of us have compared multiple units, just not all the ones you have on your list. There are lengthy comparison threads out there if you search. For instance the Mutec mentioned has gotten great feedback from multiple users and reviews, the Singxer F1 remains extremely popular, and the Eitr has been divisive - some people lve it, others consider it weak compared to others. I mod my converyers and performance improvements always come back to power supply/noise and the coax output circuit (which even top brands overlook, theres an old thread on this in the Lab). Which is why I recced the Cuinas since the designer is single mindedly focused on some of these key aspects. But if you want to go with an all around well received unit, then go for the Mutec 3+.
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Some of us have compared multiple units, just not all the ones you have on your list. There are lengthy comparison threads out there if you search. For instance the Mutec mentioned has gotten great feedback from multiple users and reviews, the Singxer F1 remains extremely popular, and the Eitr has been divisive - some people lve it, others consider it weak compared to others. I mod my converyers and performance improvements always come back to power supply/noise and the coax output circuit (which even top brands overlook, theres an old thread on this in the Lab). Which is why I recced the Cuinas since the designer is single mindedly focused on some of these key aspects. But if you want to go with an all around well received unit, then go for the Mutec 3+.
The Ciunas is high on my list for just the reason you mention. In my mind, I have likened his converter to Vinnie Rossi's ultracapacitor gear.
BTW, I only 'discovered' ART's existence because you posted to that thread a week or so ago. I'd never read that thread prior to your post, so I explored the beginning few pages and clicked the link to Pat's webpage. Then, I sent him an email asking questions. His converter is very interesting. I understood precious little of the technical stuff, but I do believe he knows his shit.
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Review and Measurements of Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 USB Converter
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-matrix-audio-x-spdif-2-usb-converter.6597/
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I use an excellent Kingrex USB converter (discontinued) but if it ever died I would try the WaveIO board ($112.65). The WaveIO is used in the high end DDDac kit (http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794.html)
http://luckit.biz/ (http://luckit.biz/)
Some background on USB recievers: http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_usb.html (http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_usb.html)
(http://luckit.biz/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/waveIO11-e1393969930893-500x459.png)
"WaveIO card is a high performance USB-to-I2S bridge especially designed for asynchronous audio streaming between any computer equipped with an USB port and virtually any digital audio device or equipment compatible with I2S or SPDIF interfaces. Combined with a suitable music player program, this board will offer 32 bit-perfect playback at any rates from 44.1 kHz up to 384 kHz thanks to proprietary drivers which allow for ASIO, Kernel Streaming and WASAPI operation, bypassing the Windows mixer for sublime audio quality.
"Two high-precision oscillators source very accurate clock signals for driving bit-transparent operations whether it’s powered from USB port or using 5Vdc external PSU. The 4-layer PCB with dedicated power and ground planes along with six ultra-low noise linear voltage regulators and high quality capacitor networks maintain the whole system noise at minimum preserving the digital audio signals’ integrity for lowest jitter performance. I2S outputs are galvanically isolated using Giant Magneto-Resistive digital isolators (GMR) avoiding noise propagation to the receiver."
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Well, I just placed an order for a Ciunas ISO-SPDIF - isolated USB to SPDIF converter - super-capacitor power with USB hub. I may not use the hub, but I decided it would be nice to have should the need arise.
It'll be delivered mid-March as per my request.
I still want to try the Schiit Eitr, and another one, but I haven't decided which.
Thanks for all the suggestions! :thumb: :notworthy:
P.S. I will be in Laos for two weeks beginning Sunday, so I may not respond for a while.
Michael
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Abbas Audio (Ukraine) makes some very well respected USB to SPIDF converters, along similar lines to SW1X in that they are tubed output and with tubed clock. Reviews suggest they are very musical and analogue-sounding. There are at least 2 levels from $380 to $850, I'm awaiting mine as we speak but can chime in when I get the chance to listen.
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Thank you for mentioning Abbas Audio. I didn’t know it existed.
While I’m traveling, I’m limited to my iPhone. The Abbas Audio website’s English page supplies nothing for explanation. Does the situation improve on a laptop or do I need to take a crash course in Ukrainian?
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Ha ha yes, if you use Google Chrome on a PC that will be best. The Abbas forum is the best place for info and reviews rather than the website, I can post a link later when I'm back home if you cant find it.
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Good to know. My wife and I are in Laos until 2/24. I’ll check soon after that.
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SW1X USB to Spdif convertors are based on Abbas Audios boards and tech. They work together.
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SW1X USB to Spdif convertors are based on Abbas Audios boards and tech. They work together.
Interesting!
Do you mean the people behind each brand work together to create gear, or that their gear is compatible? Is an Abbas DAC essentially the same as a SW1X DAC (assuming same chip and tubes)?
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The Abbas and SW1X DAC's mostly use the same chip (1541), but as far as I can tell the similarity ends there.
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Please post link to Abba forum. Interesting kit.
Both are also using Germanium SS convertors... pretty unique schemes I'd say. I wouldn't be surprised if the two cos are more connected.
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I found the forum. There’s a tab for English. I haven’t begun reading the threads yet. Let me know if you find anything interesting.
https://abbasaudio.listbb.ru/
Michael
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The owners of the two companies are friends and colleagues. Some of the their devices are almost the same, same are very different. The owner of Abbas is considered a genius and mentor for many Russian speaking audiophiles. He is also an accomplish classical musician of some stringed instrumental. Can’t remember which.
More and more I realize that low jitter is not the most important factor in audio. My ANK 4.1 LE with no oversampling, no digital filters, Triple C-Core Output Transformers and V-cap CuTFs and tube rectification blows any other high dollar hires Dac I had in my system. Even my friends Lumin S1 can’t compete. The dynamics and life is just so incredible. Everything else sounds either boring and flat, cold or irritating.
What crystal people use for clocks is meaningless as most will not even be close to spec.
The only thing holding me back from buying an Abbas USB to Spdif convertors is I hate USB and so happy to get it out of my system. The Ciunas has potential due to no regulators after the super caps.
Problem is it’s hard to get reliable feedback from anyone who has compared these SW1X and Abbas convertors to the more mainstream offerings.
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Low jitter is not the ONLY factor in digital audio, but it is right up at the top, particularly for transports, reclockers, USB converters and renderers. The ONLY thing that matters with these is JITTER. If you believe you have a device with really low jitter, I will be happy to measure this and post it here. I think you will be surprised at the differences. Certainly a low-jitter clock on the bench is much different than one in a circuit. This is why implementation and circuit design are so important. I have been designing high-speed digital hardware for 38 years, so I know what I'm talking about.
For DACs there are a lot of other issues like digital filtering, power delivery, I/V conversion and others.
For playback software there are issues as well, such as DSP distortion, inaccurate CODECs etc..
Steve N.
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You didn't mention in your original post why you don't want to use USB. It can be well implemented, but potentially noisy for very high efficiency systems.
I currently use the original Sonore SSR (Rendu). Ethernet to s/pdif or i2s converter. Sonore quickly discontinued it as everyone wanted Ethernet to USB (microRendu).
I had previously used the Hiface Evo. It requires the battery option to sound it's best, but still doesn't compete with the SSR.
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If you spend the money for the best regenerator, cables and USB converter, USB is world-class, provided you use a good playback app, like Amarra. Beats Roon and Jriver.
I have both Ethernet and USB. Ethernet was the leader for a while, until I got the Wireworld Platinum USB cables and the SOtM regenerator. Made all the difference and the USB pulled ahead of the Ethernet, for now. I have done plenty of tweaking to my Ethernet too. I have tried the AQVOX Switch and it is very good. Need to try the SOtM Switch next.
Steve N.
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The one I use and like is from DIYHK. It is a finished unit in a gold anodized housing
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All these chips, receivers and yes, even clocks have sound signatures. For example, NDK SDAs sound very different from Crysteks.
I wonder if Steve’s Syncro Mesh would be a better choice for our Spdif DACs. Just feed it with a cheap Allo Digione.
Steve, is the Syncro sensitive to what’s upstream?
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You didn't mention in your original post why you don't want to use USB. It can be well implemented, but potentially noisy for very high efficiency systems.
I currently use the original Sonore SSR (Rendu). Ethernet to s/pdif or i2s converter. Sonore quickly discontinued it as everyone wanted Ethernet to USB (microRendu).
I had previously used the Hiface Evo. It requires the battery option to sound it's best, but still doesn't compete with the SSR.
Hi, Rusty.
The SW1X DAC is SPDiF input only. My Mac Mini and Other Apple computers are USB out. If I choose to use this DAC with my Apple computers, I must buy a converter. I considered abandoning my computers as source and replacing them with a new server/streamr, but decided to stick with my computers for a couple more years. I suspect the quality and selection of very high quality servers/streamers will only get better by then.
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I use an excellent Kingrex USB converter (discontinued) but if it ever died I would try the WaveIO board ($112.65). The WaveIO is used in the high end DDDac kit (http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794.html)
http://luckit.biz/ (http://luckit.biz/)
Some background on USB recievers: http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_usb.html (http://www.dddac.com/dddac1794_usb.html)
(http://luckit.biz/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/waveIO11-e1393969930893-500x459.png)
Wayne,
Thank you for posting this. I glanced at the converter offered at luckit.biz and have a couple questions.
Is any soldering required?
Can I just add a case, add appropriate PS, plug in wires/cables and begin using it?
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Thank you for posting this. I glanced at the converter offered at luckit.biz and have a couple questions.
Is any soldering required?
Can I just add a case, add appropriate PS, plug in wires/cables and begin using it?
Looks like there would be minimal soldering, if any. I have seen a WaveIO in a plastic case for sale a while ago so I know it can be done.
Ken, a friend of mine, uses the WaveIO in his DDDac and would be the person who has all the answers. He is a good guy, drop him a line through his website:
http://www.jmaxwellusb.com/ (http://www.jmaxwellusb.com/)
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All these chips, receivers and yes, even clocks have sound signatures. For example, NDK SDAs sound very different from Crysteks.
I wonder if Steve’s Syncro Mesh would be a better choice for our Spdif DACs. Just feed it with a cheap Allo Digione.
Steve, is the Syncro sensitive to what’s upstream?
Not really, although a good coax cable matters. Lots of my customers use just a Sonos Connect and a Synchro-Mesh and they say it beats everything they have tried. Identical SQ to my $3K Interchange renderer for most systems.
BTW, here is the Digione jitter versus my Interchange:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154299.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154299.0)
Steve N.
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I found a photo of a stand alone WaveIO in a case, the builder used the J9 header with a LED display:
The J9 Header are for sample rate LEDs and additional signals:
L1 = 44.1 kHz
L2 = 48 kHz
L3 = 88.2 kHz
L4 = 96 kHz
L5 = 176.4 kHz
L6 = 192 kHz
L7 = Host Active
L8 = Audio Streaming.
Host Active is ON when the card is plugged into the USB port and is recognized.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191011&size=xlarge)
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Here's what I'm trying out:
I already mentioned the Ciunas converter. It's sitting at a friend's home waiting for my return in 7 days(!). I just ordered Tommy's Cherry USB converter and his 1 ft SPDiF cable. I'll order the Schiit Eitr in a couple days. The fourth unit <hopefully> will be an Analog Research Technology Legato. It's being assembled/tweaked now.
There are a couple other converters that look interesting, but their price tags are in the >$1500.00 range. Perhaps, I'm shooting myself in the foot by excluding the more expensive units? Dunno.
I got to listen to a friend's Gustard converter (in his system, so I can't know its impact). He likes it, and said it is much better than his previous converter (forgot which one). The price is certainly attractive.
Once my system has reawakened and settled down again, I will begin trying out the various converters. Almost popcorn time!
:popcorn:
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Here's what I'm trying out:
I already mentioned the Ciunas converter. It's sitting at a friend's home waiting for my return in 7 days(!). I just ordered Tommy's Cherry USB converter and his 1 ft SPDiF cable. I'll order the Schiit Eitr in a couple days. The fourth unit <hopefully> will be an Analog Research Technology Legato. It's being assembled/tweaked now.
There are a couple other converters that look interesting, but their price tags are in the >$1500.00 range. Perhaps, I'm shooting myself in the foot by excluding the more expensive units? Dunno.
I got to listen to a friend's Gustard converter (in his system, so I can't know its impact). He likes it, and said it is much better than his previous converter (forgot which one). The price is certainly attractive.
Once my system has reawakened and settled down again, I will begin trying out the various converters. Almost popcorn time!
:popcorn:
I can’t wait. So Pat is still building Legatos? That is good news. Did he share any info on what’s new?
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Schiit has a new proprietary USB implementation. Unison USB. See Jason Stoddard's comments here. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/page-2939#post-14793313
Sounds like Wyrd and Eitr are going away.
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I can’t wait. So Pat is still building Legatos? That is good news. Did he share any info on what’s new?
In had no idea. That's cool!
I just had mine upgraded with new crystals and clocks but I didn't know he was still building new.
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I can’t wait. So Pat is still building Legatos? That is good news. Did he share any info on what’s new?
Yes..............very long story short (well, as short as it can be), we are back up and running. We moved (the real long story), and after almost 3 years of limbo, things are returning to "normal". (When have we ever been accused of being "normal"?)
Actually, there will be 2 versions: the original, with lots of necessary changes; and a smaller, lighter version, designed mainly for the export market.
Maybe I will get around to describing the 2 versions in the proper place of the forum.
I will point out that one of the issues on the original version was we had to change power transformers, as the ones we used were no longer available. (I think someone bought that company up, and has since resumed production, but burned once.) The replacement got lots of complaints, from places like Germany, where it was claimed they buzzed. (They probably did, but no way for us to know that.) The new version will use those transformers, and so might be best only be made available to US customers. Maybe.
The other one uses a SMPS wall wart. But costs half as much. And half as long, half as tall, and half as wide. And will only come in black.
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In had no idea. That's cool!
I just had mine upgraded with new crystals and clocks but I didn't know he was still building new.
Both versions will use the same clocks, with the same performance level. Which turns out to be around 10 dB better than what the original ones were. (Which were already better than what others were using, or will use.)
Such a deal!
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I just ordered Tommy's Cherry USB converter and his 1 ft SPDiF cable.
Go ahead and hate me, but why in the world would you want to use a 1 m cable?
I guess it could be worse..................like maybe 1 foot.................
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Both versions will use the same clocks, with the same performance level. Which turns out to be around 10 dB better than what the original ones were. (Which were already better than what others were using, or will use.)
Such a deal!
What's 10dB better? Are we still talking about USB to SPDIF?
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As I mentioned before, jitter doesn't affect the performance of a well designed DAC.
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Go ahead and hate me, but why in the world would you want to use a 1 m cable?
I guess it could be worse..................like maybe 1 foot.................
This is why:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm)
Ignore it at your peril.
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As I mentioned before, jitter doesn't affect the performance of a well designed DAC.
As I mentioned before, I have yet to hear ANY DAC that is not at least a little sensitive to incoming jitter.
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What's 10dB better? Are we still talking about USB to SPDIF?
The phase noise of the clock. Sorry, should have been more clear.
The owner knew what I was referring to, as did his friend. My mistake for not taking into account the rest of the world.
(Old folks....................what to do with us?)
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As I mentioned before, jitter doesn't affect the performance of a well designed DAC.
So, one is to conclude that all of your products are "well designed" and everything else is crap?
Ok.
It may shock you, but a lot of folks still use megabuck DACs, from years ago. I guess they should all throw them out, right?
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ART: You have a PM. :thumb:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Boys, boys....I think we're all aware how this discussion could too easily turn into another scrap. Let's be nice to each other, okay?
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I'm back in Oregon again. My new DAC will be delivered this afternoon. [I'm beside myself with excitement.]
I have received Tommy's USB to SPDiF converter (very nicely packaged, Tommy. Kudos!). I also have the Ciunas converter. I have to place the order for the Schiit Eitr, and Pat's converter will be ready soon. Good times!
I'm going to start a new thread...or two(?). Hm. One to discuss converter differences, and one to talk about my DAC and what it does for my audio system.
Michael
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I'm back in Oregon again. My new DAC will be delivered this afternoon. [I'm beside myself with excitement.]
I have received Tommy's USB to SPDiF converter (very nicely packaged, Tommy. Kudos!). I also have the Ciunas converter. I have to place the order for the Schiit Eitr, and Pat's converter will be ready soon. Good times!
I'm going to start a new thread...or two(?). Hm. One to discuss converter differences, and one to talk about my DAC and what it does for my audio system.
Michael
If you are not too far from Central Oregon, you should plan to stop in sometime at Black Butte Ranch. You can vacation, golf, bicycle and experience some other audio products at the same time. No pressure. For instance, I have Wireworld Platinum USB cables as well as the SOtM USBultra which is a must-have for USB IMO. Also iFi SPDIF iPurifiers.
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OK, very briefly...................here is a typical phase noise plot for the new Legato converters:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192393)
Without going into details (since a lot of the research we consider proprietary), we have found that when you get a clock that can approach -88 dBc @ 1 Hz offset that is the point where a "digital" system begins to sound like an "analog" system, in terms of soundstage and "3-D imaging".
Actually, we do not use the phase noise as the prime metric, but is the one that is the most accessible, to folks in general. But, it gives a quick view of what to expect.
Early units were -80 to -84 dBc. Eventually we made some that were around -88 dBc. A few went to Our Man in Hong Kong that were -90 dBc. But, they were hard to come by, using the older clock parts.
Actually, it isn't easier now. One still has to buy 1000 pieces of these parts, spend a ton of money on the right test equipment, put a lot of time in effort to find the good ones, only to find you still have a yield in single digits. (Yes, I am serious.)
A lot of our competitors that tout low-jitter clocks are around -70 dBc. (Yes, we have measured them.) Not to put down their effort, as they could have just as easily bought some bog-standard ones, that cost $1 or less, like 99% of the other companies do. You know, the ones that measure -60 dBc or so. (Yes, we have also measured a lot of them as well. In fact, that is what almost all of the ones you buy from Mouser and Digikey will measure. Trust me.)
OK, I'm done! Anyone wanting info on the Legato "Redux" (I guess that is what we can jokingly call it), or the Legato Lite (or just "Lite", as we call it), send me a PM.
"Back to the salt mine.................................."
(No jokes about whether or not I have wife that will kvetch about that.)
(Show me an engineer that has a wife....................and, well when you do manage to show me an engineer with a wife, I'll think of some pithy remark.)
Over and out! Enjoy, guys.
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I just ordered Tommy's Cherry USB converter and his 1 ft SPDiF cable.
You may want to pick up a few attenuators too, they are cheap. I should play with mine again, it's been a long time.
Anyway, both art and audioengr agree that longer SPDIF cables with BNC connectors are better than short. Here is Pat's post from way back in 2011:
Reflections and attenuators
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90454.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90454.0)
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Tried to talk several manufacturers of "audiophile accessories" into making a kit of attenuators. No, they couldn't wrap their head around that concept. They would rather stick to selling $2 pieces of wire for megabucks. And other silliness, with no basis in anything other than audiophoole think-speak.
(All it would take is the ability to produce them inexpensively, and the only real cost was that of a decent connector. That, and the ability to market and promote them. The last part should tell you why we didn't do it!)
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Tried to talk several manufacturers of "audiophile accessories" into making a kit of attenuators. No, they couldn't wrap their head around that concept. They would rather stick to selling $2 pieces of wire for megabucks. And other silliness, with no basis in anything other than audiophoole think-speak.
(All it would take is the ability to produce them inexpensively, and the only real cost was that of a decent connector. That, and the ability to market and promote them. The last part should tell you why we didn't do it!)
I don't understand why you would want an attenuator on a digital signal. It would not meet spec anymore and would be more susceptible to noise at the receiver, assuming that it was still matching the impedance.
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You could read that thread. I think it provides the answers.
(One of the advantages of getting old is forgetting that thread ever existed! Yes, now I recall some schmuck, that we lovingly called "wacky tabacky", went out of his way to insult me, saying there is no way I could have ever worked on a microwave receiver. This was after he got his lunch handed to him, by a cohort, on one of the silly DIY forums. WT claimed he could measure the impedance of any SPDIF circuit, with just a DMM. So, after that debacle, he came over here to attack me. Along with some other guy, who also argued, ad nauseam, over the "long cable theory", with yet another of our cohorts. Who, after spreading lies and disinformation about that, on other manufacturer's forums, went on to start his own audio company, and with his very first product........................
Offered attenuators for sale. Just as I predicted!)
So, might I suggest we take this subject up back at that location, assuming the thread has not been locked down. It got worse after I bowed out, when another chap tried to educate ol' WT. To no avail, I might point out.
If not, let me leave you with this one post I made:
I come here, as a manufacturer, to interact with potential customers. Not educate manufacturer wanna-be kids, or participate in a flame war, with a self-appointed expert. I chose Audio Circle, because it is not like those other forums, some of you like to frequent. Kindly take your personal feud, back to where it came from.
Anything else? If not......................the salt mine awaits.................
Cheers!
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You could read that thread. I think it provides the answers.
(One of the advantages of getting old is forgetting that thread ever existed! Yes, now I recall some schmuck, that we lovingly called "wacky tabacky", went out of his way to insult me, saying there is no way I could have ever worked on a microwave receiver. This was after he got his lunch handed to him, by a cohort, on one of the silly DIY forums. WT claimed he could measure the impedance of any SPDIF circuit, with just a DMM. So, after that debacle, he came over here to attack me. Along with some other guy, who also argued, ad nauseam, over the "long cable theory", with yet another of our cohorts. Who, after spreading lies and disinformation about that, on other manufacturer's forums, went on to start his own audio company, and with his very first product........................
Offered attenuators for sale. Just as I predicted!)
So, might I suggest we take this subject up back at that location, assuming the thread has not been locked down. It got worse after I bowed out, when another chap tried to educate ol' WT. To no avail, I might point out.
If not, let me leave you with this one post I made:
Anything else? If not......................the salt mine awaits.................
Cheers!
I read it:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90454.0
Looking at your scope traces, where was the first trace measured on the transmission-line?
This looks like an unterminated line with the scope probe looking at the source. I see from the "shoulders" that it is not well-matched to the 75 ohm terminator or cable. The shoulders should be at exactly the same voltage, and one shoulder is higher than the other. Either the source, the cable or the destination is mismatched.
Your attenuator looks like it is trying to match the line to other than 75 ohms. What is the risetime here BTW? It's not really .8psec is it?
The better solution is to use a BNC terminated cable and coax cables inside the components. Then you get a signal like this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=172534)
This is a 7GHz B/W sampling scope. This is what is needed to properly characterize fast digital signals.
However, the source impedance must be 75 ohms. 99% of manufacturers don't have a S/PDIF output matched to 75 ohms. That is the problem that might be helped by your attenuator. I suspect that the glitch that we see in your waveforms that is reduced by adding series resistance is actually caused by the source mismatch or by a poor cable, not by the RCA connector and internal cabling.
Did you replace the RCA and internal cabling with BNC and coax internal cabling and see the glitch disappear?
If you changed the cable and the glitch disappeared, then you know the cable is not 75 ohms.
If it's the cable, then the obvious thing to do is replace it with a true 75 ohm cable, not add attenuators. If the cable is on the high-side, you could add series resistance to the source to match it, but now the cable is still not matched with the parallel terminator. If it's on the low-side, you can add parallel resistors at the destination, but now the cable and the driver output impedance are not matched. Neither will be very good however because they are not being added right at the source driver or right at the destination parallel terminator. A kludge at best IMO. There must be a match at the source, the cable and the destination, all three and preferably at all of the connectors in-between.
BTW, early-on I used Belden 1694A as my impedance reference to "tune" my outputs. It turns out that it's not very close to 75 ohms. If you are using sub-nanosecond risetime outputs, there are more accurate cables to use as reference, aerospace-grade. Even a "broadcast quality" BNC cable from Markertek is closer to 75 ohms IME.
Steve N.
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So, one is to conclude that all of your products are "well designed" and everything else is crap?
Ok.
It may shock you, but a lot of folks still use megabuck DACs, from years ago. I guess they should all throw them out, right?
I didn’t even mention my own products. The burden of proof is on the manufacturers of devices meant to fix a problem that doesn’t exist in modern equipment. I’m not talking about price, either. If you want to know where I’m coming from, read this:
https://positive-feedback.com/interviews/tommy-obrien-digital-amplifier-co/
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WT claimed he could measure the impedance of any SPDIF circuit, with just a DMM.
Not possible.
Pat - I'm not sure what you mean by "long cable" theory, but here is my white-paper analysis on minimum lengths for S/PDIF cables:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm)
Here is one A/B test that was independently performed that confirms it (not a controlled test):
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/is-a-s-pdif-coax-cable-longer-than-1m-better.27733/ (https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/is-a-s-pdif-coax-cable-longer-than-1m-better.27733/)
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I am using a Kitsune KTE SU-1 DDR and I am happy with what it sounds like. I have only tried the AES/XLR and SPDIF RCA outputs.
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Michael, any updates?
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Update time:
I have been extra busy in the last month or so - taxes, my 89-yr-old mother was in the hospital, one of my KT88 tubes died, and my DAC's rectifier tube died(!). Taxes are done or extended; Mom is out of the hospital and in Hospice care (do not post condolences in this thread, please!), dead tubes have been replaced.
The Digital Audio Company converter was returned to Tommy last week. Thank you, Tommy, for the opportunity to try it in my system. I still have the Ciunas converter. I received the AR.T Legato a few days ago, but the dead tube and my spending the weekend at Smith Rock State Park in Central Oregon have kept me from inserting it into my system. I will get off my butt tonight and get it up and running.
I subjectively decided I would not try the Schiit Eitr after all.
This afternoon, Steve N (audioengr) graciously allowed me into his home to listen to his system. Wow! Awesome sounding.
More to come before too long I hope...
Michael
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@ Michael
My son likes the KEF LS 50 (wireless ) by the way how does the USB to SPDIF converter work :scratch: what is the benefit sonically for using it ? I having being looking at the possibility trying to figure out how to use the I2S of the PS audio Directstream with an adapter for OPPO 205 no success yet , just today replaced the fuses in the DAC with the Esoteric Audio-magic Ultimate Bee-wax fuses costly affair , well they did surprise me with the expanded sound stage when I replaced them in my QS mono amps and then someone suggested I try that in my DAC :popcorn:
Asghar
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Update time:
I have been extra busy in the last month or so - taxes, my 89-yr-old mother was in the hospital, one of my KT88 tubes died, and my DAC's rectifier tube died(!). Taxes are done or extended; Mom is out of the hospital and in Hospice care (do not post condolences in this thread, please!), dead tubes have been replaced.
The Digital Audio Company converter was returned to Tommy last week. Thank you, Tommy, for the opportunity to try it in my system. I still have the Ciunas converter. I received the AR.T Legato a few days ago, but the dead tube and my spending the weekend at Smith Rock State Park in Central Oregon have kept me from inserting it into my system. I will get off my butt tonight and get it up and running.
I subjectively decided I would not try the Schiit Eitr after all.
This afternoon, Steve N (audioengr) graciously allowed me into his home to listen to his system. Wow! Awesome sounding.
More to come before too long I hope...
Michael
Thanks for checking out the Cherry USB, Michael. Was setup truly plug-and-play? Please let us know your computer configuration. Did you try changing the settings in the control panel to enable 96/24 or 192/24 mode? What playback software did you use?
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@ Michael
My son likes the KEF LS 50 (wireless ) by the way how does the USB to SPDIF converter work :scratch: what is the benefit sonically for using it ? I having being looking at the possibility trying to figure out how to use the I2S of the PS audio Directstream with an adapter for OPPO 205 no success yet , just today replaced the fuses in the DAC with the Esoteric Audio-magic Ultimate Bee-wax fuses costly affair , well they did surprise me with the expanded sound stage when I replaced them in my QS mono amps and then someone suggested I try that in my DAC :popcorn:
Asghar
A USB converter is useful if the DAC does not have USB input or if the USB input on the DAC is substandard and the S/PDIF input on the DAC is not reclocked. In this case, it will improve performance by reducing jitter, assuming that the jitter from the converter is lower than the on-board USB interface, which is the case with my converters.
If the DAC has a reclocker on the S/PDIF input, then the improvement will be smaller or none at all.
The USB converter has an asynchronous interface for USB which usually outputs I2S and S/PDIF. My converters have multiple outputs, including I2S on RJ-45, I2S on HDMI, AES/EBU and S/PDIF coax, all active at the same time.
Steve N.
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@ Michael
My son likes the KEF LS 50 (wireless ) by the way how does the USB to SPDIF converter work :scratch: what is the benefit sonically for using it ? I having being looking at the possibility trying to figure out how to use the I2S of the PS audio Directstream with an adapter for OPPO 205 no success yet , just today replaced the fuses in the DAC with the Esoteric Audio-magic Ultimate Bee-wax fuses costly affair , well they did surprise me with the expanded sound stage when I replaced them in my QS mono amps and then someone suggested I try that in my DAC :popcorn:
Asghar
Ashgar,
Thanks for clarifying. Encourage that young man. :thumb:
My DAC only has SPDiF input. In order to connect my DAC to my Mac Mini or iMac, I must use a converter. I'm attempting to find an appropriate and acceptable converter that doesn't cost $1000, $2000, or more $$$$.
Michael
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Thanks for checking out the Cherry USB, Michael. Was setup truly plug-and-play? Please let us know your computer configuration. Did you try changing the settings in the control panel to enable 96/24 or 192/24 mode? What playback software did you use?
Tommy,
I imagine you must be pretty busy, and you were very busy before, during and after AXPONA, but you really need to slow down as you read emails from me. You'll pick up more information. My DAC is a NOS DAC. NOS means Non Over-Sampling. My DAC does not play anything beyond 96. It does not play MQA. [I played the Eagles MQA Hotel California last night and it sounded like shit.] My DAC does not do DSD. My DAC's chip is the vintage and venerable TDA1541. It predates all the fancy new fangled up-sampling techniques. I'm quite happy being a dinosaur.
Yes. Your converter was plug and play. My computer is a 2012 Mac Mini with 16Gb RAM, a 2013 iMac, and 2018 MacBook Pro. Since my DAC excels at playing 44.1 (CD quality), I left the settings at 44.1. I'm currently not using any special software, but I plan to try ROON and thanks to my visit with Steve yesterday, I'll look into Linn Kinsky.
I also own an OPPO BDP-103 that I can (and will) connect directly to my DAC to play the 400 or so CDs that I own. I anticipate that the music coming out of the OPPO will sound better than my computers.
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Linn Kinsky is for playing using Ethernet, not USB.
When we got together, everything I played using USB was using Amarra with iTunes picking the tracks. Amarra is what you need, or maybe Audirvana.
Steve N.
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The Legato is in my system and burning in. Right off the bat, it sounds very nice. I did not play a song on the Ciunas just before I switched to the Legato, so I cannot offer any comparison.
Eliane Elias was kind enough to be the first artist. She sounds wonderful. Somehow, I managed to persuade the Stones to stop by to play Angie. I think this is the first time I played this song on this system. What took them so long? :duh:
:popcorn:
Gregfisk will arrive mid-afternoon tomorrow. I'm certain he'd like to add a comment....if he is permitted to do so. [Please.]
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[I played the Eagles MQA Hotel California last night and it sounded like shit.]
Well.................all I can say is.....................
(https://i0.wp.com/clothesonfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/The-Big-Lebowski_Jeff-Bridges_Cowichan-cardigan_cab.bmp.jpg)
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The Legato is in my system and burning in. Right off the bat, it sounds very nice. I did not play a song on the Ciunas just before I switched to the Legato, so I cannot offer any comparison.
Eliane Elias was kind enough to be the first artist. She sounds wonderful. Somehow, I managed to persuade the Stones to stop by to play Angie. I think this is the first time I played this song on this system. What took them so long? :duh:
:popcorn:
Gregfisk will arrive mid-afternoon tomorrow. I'm certain he'd like to add a comment....if he is permitted to do so. [Please.]
Michael - I posted a bit about my impressions of the Legato today in the jitter thread in the Lab circle. I have been very impressed, and have retired my previous Amanero to SPDIF interface. I've described the sound with the Legato in the system as "master tape without the hiss" but I realize that I may have borrowed that characterization from someone else. I won't tell you who I listened to very early on (at the risk of sounding old and sappy) but I will say that she's half of The Carpenters.
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Michael - I posted a bit about my impressions of the Legato today in the jitter thread in the Lab circle. I have been very impressed, and have retired my previous Amanero to SPDIF interface. I've described the sound with the Legato in the system as "master tape without the hiss" but I realize that I may have borrowed that characterization from someone else. I won't tell you who I listened to very early on (at the risk of sounding old and sappy) but I will say that she's half of The Carpenters.
Hi, tubesguy2!
I've got the Legato in now, but I also still own the Ciunas converter. I have been either too busy lately or too flustered to do any critical listening, so I cannot definitively declare one converter as the winner. I place the Legato in my system and I love the music. I do the same with the Ciunas and it sounds lovely as well. [Remember: I'm not comparing them.] I'm keeping both just in case one someday fails.
My SW1X DAC III STD is an amazing DAC.
Michael