AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: Bigfishhk on 2 Jan 2013, 05:04 pm
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Am going to buy an integrated tube to run with my ST's and Rythmik sub.
Hope some of you can help me decide:
1. JOLIDA jd1000rc
EL34 based. 100wpc
(Jim S thought would be good choice btw)
Used- approx 4 years old. tubes 1 yr old.
TUBES- 4 matched pairs - 8 of 6CA7/EL34 power output; 2 pcs. 12AX7 pre-amplifier; 2 pcs. 12AT7/ECC81 power drivers.
http://www.jolida.com/product/tubeamp/jd1000rc
2. ROGUE TEMPEST mk 1
approx 9 yrs old.
40 watts triode/ 60 watts ultra
it has an internal fan- noisy?
TUBES- The original Tempest had a tube complement of four 12AU7s, two 12AX7s and four KT88s
http://www.audaud.com/audaud/NOV01/EQUIP/equip3NOV01.html
ANY THOUGHTS ARE MOST WELCOME! Hope to make purchase today.
thanks
TOm
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I have a pair of Marantz 9's that run on a quad of 6CA7/EL34's each....it is only rated at 70 in UL and 40 in Triode....I know it is actually closer to 90watts only because I have hand selected tubes in it that have nice headroom and don't distort early.
I prefer the EL34 voicing over the KT88, but that is me and to you the KT88's may be more pleasant to your ears. I like 12AX7's, as they have a 100mu gain, but tend to be more microphonic for the same reason. The 12AT7's are more forgiving and are still very musical. Added advantage of the ECC81/12AT7's...they tend to be less expensive if you decide to go NOS. BTW, the 12AT7 has a gain factor of 60MU and you can go with an industrial tube CV4024 that will last forever and is also nice and musical.
I had a Jolida several years ago and it had a front-end issue that they took care of without hesitation...I also liked their remote. The Jolida has decent tranny's (very important) and is easy to bias.
The advantage of the Rogue is that it has the ability to play in Triode which is really nice as it allows all the harmonics to come through. The fan can be either replaced or repaired....it shouldn't be noisy in normal operation.
I think I may have confused the issue, sorry....
Jim
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It would be prudent to determine what character of sound you desire with the Amp Speaker combo. Salks are very neutral to the amp used. so do you want to add warmth ? Stay neutral ? would your source mate well with the amp ?
Once you determine the sonic result desired it would be helpful in suggesting an amp to try.
charles
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I'd go with the Jolida; more power and the tubes are still pretty fresh. :) Plus that brand is pretty solid IMO.
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What about maybe stretching your budget and get the Salk recommended amp that he uses as shows?
See here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=112380.0
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I ran my Songtowers with a Jolida 502BRC and was very happy with the sound. The 502 uses KT88s as i wanted the extra punch they gave over the EL34s found in the Jolida 302 i was also considering (Jim S said he preferred the 34s when I asked him back then). I was also able to output to a Subwoofer from the Jolida which was nice and the Remote was handy.
When I sold my Songtowers earlier this year, I hooked them up to the Jolida and the guy ended up buying the amp as well caused he really liked the way they sounded together. I would have kept the Jolida but my HT3s demanded more power and I needed the $$ to buy a new Amp and Preamp.
never heard a Rogue so just commenting on my Jolida experience.
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I'd go for the Rogue due to better build quality, reputation, and service.
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I have heard the Rogue stuff and did like it. But I also tested the Line Magnetic Audio 216IA at Don Better Audio. I actually feel in love with this ptp wired model. It sounded better than the Rogue to me, so I bought it! Never heard the Jolida stuff, but I think AudioKarma.org has a following of this brand under Grant Audio forum.
http://donbetteraudio.com/products/amplifiers/
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How about the Cary SLi-80 , came close to getting one myself.
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What about maybe stretching your budget and get the Salk recommended amp that he uses as shows?
See here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=112380.0
Am not looking for SS gear. And space and budget mean integrated works best for now.
Thanks
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I'd go with the Jolida; more power and the tubes are still pretty fresh. :) Plus that brand is pretty solid IMO.
Actually owner rolled tubes about 18 months ago.
Thanks
Tom
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How about the Cary SLi-80 , came close to getting one myself.
My budget is 1500 incl shipping
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I have heard the Rogue stuff and did like it. But I also tested the Line Magnetic Audio 216IA at Don Better Audio. I actually feel in love with this ptp wired model. It sounded better than the Rogue to me, so I bought it! Never heard the Jolida stuff, but I think AudioKarma.org has a following of this brand under Grant Audio forum.
http://donbetteraudio.com/products/amplifiers/
The Line Magnetic amps look like they'd easily be worth going over the $1500 budget mentioned. In the case of Pitch Perfect in San Fran, they're sold right along side the likes of Shindo. Either the EL34 or KT88 based units would work fine with the SongTower.
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+1 for Line Magnetic. extend your budget to $1650 if you can for the EL34 based model. I like it slightly better than the more expensive KT88 model.
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they look nice indeed.. but forgetting price for a moment, the power output seems low..?
15 watts per channel in triode, 32 watts per channel in ultra linear.
Tom
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I love Rogue stuff. I have three of their products in my system. However, I think I'd avoid the Mk I version of the Tempest. It has a reputation of running the tubes fairly hard, resulting in tube replacement more often. And tubes ain't cheap! You could probably still find a Mk II, which has a totally redesigned circuit and sounds amazing, within your price range. If you could actually find a Mk II I'd recommend it over the Jolida as it is more versatile; you can roll in any normal octal - even the KT120, it has triode/ultra switching, has headphone and phono capability (phono board available from Rogue), uses 1/2 the tubes for nearly the same amount of power (the Mk II is 90 watts/channel in Ultralinear - and no fan in Mk II). It's also designed and built here in the US by good folk. If you wanted, you could have it upgraded to Mk III status and even do the Super Magnum upgrade for even better transparency if desired. My 2 cents.
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they look nice indeed.. but forgetting price for a moment, the power output seems low..?
15 watts per channel in triode, 32 watts per channel in ultra linear.
Tom
I ran the SongTowers with a 40 watt Bob Latino ST70 for a couple of years. It was really a sweet combination that never sounded stressed at reasonable SPL's.( mid 80's with mid to high 90 peaks) TAS made very positive comments on the SongTower/ VA Ultravalve combo.( 35 watts? ) I suspect the 32 watt rating just indicates the tubes are being run a tad more conservatively. Remember that tube amps sound much stronger and remain more composed than solid state amps of equal or even much higher power ratings. Plus you have a very nice Rythmik sub to help in the bass..... perhaps the only area these amps may come up a tad short.
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I ran the SongTowers with a 40 watt Bob Latino ST70 for a couple of years. It was really a sweet combination that never sounded stressed at reasonable SPL's.( mid 80's with mid to high 90 peaks) TAS made very positive comments on the SongTower/ VA Ultravalve combo.( 35 watts? ) I suspect the 32 watt rating just indicates the tubes are being run a tad more conservatively. Remember that tube amps sound much stronger and remain more composed than solid state amps of equal or even much higher power ratings. Plus you have a very nice Rythmik sub to help in the bass..... perhaps the only area these amps may come up a tad short.
Can't see from their website if they have SUB outs.
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I love Rogue stuff. I have three of their products in my system. However, I think I'd avoid the Mk I version of the Tempest. It has a reputation of running the tubes fairly hard, resulting in tube replacement more often. And tubes ain't cheap! You could probably still find a Mk II, which has a totally redesigned circuit and sounds amazing, within your price range. If you could actually find a Mk II I'd recommend it over the Jolida as it is more versatile; you can roll in any normal octal - even the KT120, it has triode/ultra switching, has headphone and phono capability (phono board available from Rogue), uses 1/2 the tubes for nearly the same amount of power (the Mk II is 90 watts/channel in Ultralinear - and no fan in Mk II). It's also designed and built here in the US by good folk. If you wanted, you could have it upgraded to Mk III status and even do the Super Magnum upgrade for even better transparency if desired. My 2 cents.
yes I will not buy the Rogue Tempest mk 1 I agree
thanks
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I love Rogue stuff. I have three of their products in my system. However, I think I'd avoid the Mk I version of the Tempest. It has a reputation of running the tubes fairly hard, resulting in tube replacement more often. And tubes ain't cheap! You could probably still find a Mk II, which has a totally redesigned circuit and sounds amazing, within your price range. If you could actually find a Mk II I'd recommend it over the Jolida as it is more versatile; you can roll in any normal octal - even the KT120, it has triode/ultra switching, has headphone and phono capability (phono board available from Rogue), uses 1/2 the tubes for nearly the same amount of power (the Mk II is 90 watts/channel in Ultralinear - and no fan in Mk II). It's also designed and built here in the US by good folk. If you wanted, you could have it upgraded to Mk III status and even do the Super Magnum upgrade for even better transparency if desired. My 2 cents.
All that being said, if I found a Mk I cheap enough, or sold for parts, I'd buy it then send it in to Rogue for the Mk III upgrade. I think the only common parts are chassis and trannies. Should still be much cheaper then a new Mk III.
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I love Rogue stuff. I have three of their products in my system. However, I think I'd avoid the Mk I version of the Tempest. It has a reputation of running the tubes fairly hard, resulting in tube replacement more often. And tubes ain't cheap! You could probably still find a Mk II, which has a totally redesigned circuit and sounds amazing, within your price range. If you could actually find a Mk II I'd recommend it over the Jolida as it is more versatile; you can roll in any normal octal - even the KT120, it has triode/ultra switching, has headphone and phono capability (phono board available from Rogue), uses 1/2 the tubes for nearly the same amount of power (the Mk II is 90 watts/channel in Ultralinear - and no fan in Mk II). It's also designed and built here in the US by good folk. If you wanted, you could have it upgraded to Mk III status and even do the Super Magnum upgrade for even better transparency if desired. My 2 cents.
A Tempest 1 upgraded to Tempest 2 up for sale on AG today. Not sure how upgraded model compares to the mk2.
how do KT88's compare to el34's?
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I thought that jolida had business issue awhile back. Has this been solved and is that the real jolida?
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If I were tasked with making this choice, I would go with Jolida.
http://www.salksound.com/jolida%20home.htm (http://www.salksound.com/jolida%20home.htm)
Have fun,
Jerry
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If the Jolida in still in contention, note that at least according the schematic for my 10yr old 302, it can relatively easily be converted from EL34 to KT88 by changing one resistor per tube in the bias circuit (R14 & 16 as seen below)
With EL34s it can also be fairly easily converted to triode mode
(http://www.drtube.com/schematics/jolida/sj-502a.gif)
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If I were tasked with making this choice, I would go with Jolida.
http://www.salksound.com/jolida%20home.htm (http://www.salksound.com/jolida%20home.htm)
Have fun,
Jerry
Jerry
based on the Rogue Mk 1 upgraged to mk 2 VS Jolida?
(a upgraded mk1/2) came up for sale today on AG).
Both almost same price (1300)
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A Tempest 1 upgraded to Tempest 2 up for sale on AG today. Not sure how upgraded model compares to the mk2.
how do KT88's compare to el34's?
Tempest II and what I've called a Mk II are the same thing. Same for Tempest III and Mk. III. Sorry for the confusion.
I've never tried the EL34 in my Rogue amp, but generally speaking the KT88 is larger sounding, fuller, more spacious and airy with stronger and tighter bass. The EL34 is sweeter sounding, a bit smaller sounding, and I've always found the bass of the EL34 to be a bit boomy and undefined. Others disagree with me. The KT90s are a bit of both worlds in the Rogue amps. I'd call them an EL34 on steroids; stronger and tighter bass, larger sound but retaining that 'purity' of the EL34. The KT120 is supposed to be awesome in this amp but I haven't had the chance to try them yet. I have an EL34 amp from a different company that really does small scale folk and chamber music well. But the Rogue beats it hands down on larger symphonic stuff and rock.
The Tempest II will run the EL34 if you're so inclined. It will also run the 6L6, 63PS/6n3c, EL34, 6CA7, KT66, KT77, KT88, 6550, KT90 and KT120. You'd simply lower the bias a touch for anything under the KT88 in my list.
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Jerry
based on the Rogue Mk 1 upgraged to mk 2 VS Jolida?
(a upgraded mk1/2) came up for sale today on AG).
Both almost same price (1300)
Yes, Jolida. All day long.
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The Vandersteen speakers I have are the 2CE Sig II. They are rated at 86db sensitivity. I think the Salk's are slightly more sensitive at 88db. I listened to the LM Audio 216IA with KT88 power tubes in a medium to large sized room with lower ceilings and it FILLED the room with sound at 1/3 turn of the volume knob. I was very impressed by the power it could put out... so was my dealer who just started to carry the brand. But he told me tubes would sound much louder than the watts listed. Also did a listen to the Cary and was not impressed for the price.
The upside to the Rogue is that the guys are in, I think PA. You would get great customer service that is here in the USA.
The only downside to the 216IA, it does not have a headphone output (jack). Other than that, build quality is VERY nice and it sounds superb. Also heard it with Devore speakers.... a superb match.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/line-magnetic-amplifiers
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...........it FILLED the room with sound at 1/3 turn of the volume knob.
If you were using a digital source (~2v output) the amp was probably close to full output.
From the manufacturers specs: Input Sensitivity: 220mV
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If Salk is using Jolida with their speakers and they like it, I would not hesitate to go with Jolida. Even though my experience has been very positive with Vandy's and LM Audio. The Jolida and Salk match must be very good if Mr Salk is selling the line on his website.
At the very least, give him a call and see what he thinks for your ST's....
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=73261)
Wouldn't mind auditioning a couple of these JoLida 200w monoblocks. Haven't read review one, however.
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If Salk is using Jolida with their speakers and they like it, I would not hesitate to go with Jolida. Even though my experience has been very positive with Vandy's and LM Audio. The Jolida and Salk match must be very good if Mr Salk is selling the line on his website.
At the very least, give him a call and see what he thinks for your ST's....
I did. He suggested EL34's. obviously he told me the AVA Ultra sounds great with the ST's as has been noted widely, but on lower budget integrated tube, he thinks Jolida work well.
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I did. He suggested EL34's. obviously he told me the AVA Ultra sounds great with the ST's as has been noted widely, but on lower budget integrated tube, he thinks Jolida work well.
Oh man - my mouth is watering!
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My first system was an 35w EL34 Jolida and ST's. It sounded nice but was a little light in the bass dept. With a $1500 budget you can do a lot better than Jolida, especially if buying used.
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”EL34” CJ premier 11a is one very special amp. I let it go and missed it sometime.
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Does anyone know if the Rogue Tempest mk 1 can use EL34 and/or KT120 tubes?
I know the KT120 tubes are taller, but would the electronics support them if the cover is removed?
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Does anyone know if the Rogue Tempest mk 1 can use EL34 and/or KT120 tubes?
I know the KT120 tubes are taller, but would the electronics support them if the cover is removed?
I've contacted Rogue about using the KT120 in my Stereo 90 (same chassis as Tempest II & III). They told me they have to special pick them and send only the shorter ones (apparently, there's a slight difference in height between tubes). The power supply can support the 120. Yes, the Tempest II can use the EL34.
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That is the Tempest II and III, was wondering about the Tempest I
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Sorry, chassis size is the same for the Tempest I as the II and III, however, I think the I is self-bias, no? In that case, EL34s would be biased too hot and the KT120s would be biased a little low. I'm sure you could do it but you'd probably wear the EL34s out faster. Roger Modjeski of Music Reference mentioned this tip to find out if your amps circuit can actually handle the KT120; install it and if your power tranny doesn't get hotter than normal you're fine. Too hot means the tubes are drawing more current from the PS than it can handle. This doesn't really help you decide before purchasing expensive tubes, I know, but Mark at Rogue could answer that question more definitively.
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I heard one of these driving a pair of Salk HT2s. Sound really good!
http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=250&Itemid=235
:smoke:
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Finally I plonked down for the Rogue Tempest mk 2.
Thanks to everyone for their input and PATIENCE with my questions.
I actually nearly upped my budget for Cary integrated but it sold in 1 hr on AG and I missed it. Oh well, saved me some money!
I will post on AC later how the Tempest with KT88's match up with the Song Towers. TOm
I
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Let us know your thoughts on this amp. Gook luck.
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Congrats! Let us know how it works out for you.
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Got nothing but respect and admiration for Van Alstine's contributions in a ridiculously priced marketplace. Had a Stereo 70 in the day and a Dyna PAS pre just had to use efficient speakers.