AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Virtue Audio Owners => Topic started by: WC on 14 Jul 2011, 12:45 am
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In another thread Seth asked what I wanted in a DAC. It sounds like Virtue is working on a DAC card that will be expansible to multiple types of DACS. What does everybody want to see in a DAC?
Here is my suggestion:
Digital inputs - 1 USB (24-96k min), 2 digital S/PDIF min (24-192k)
Analog inputs - 2 min, with one being a HT bypass
Analog outputs - 1 unbalanced variable volume at a minimum, an additional fixed or variable volume unbalanced would be a plus
Tube buffer
Volume control so the DAC can be used as a preamp.
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1 USB to input digital data
1 pair of RCAs to output beautiful music
That's it. :D
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In another thread Seth asked what I wanted in a DAC. It sounds like Virtue is working on a DAC card that will be expansible to multiple types of DACS. What does everybody want to see in a DAC?
Here is my suggestion:
Digital inputs - 1 USB (24-96k min), 2 digital S/PDIF min (24-192k)--COOL<<<<<
Analog inputs - 2 min, with one being a HT bypass--COOL<<<<<
Analog outputs - 1 unbalanced variable volume at a minimum, an additional fixed or variable volume unbalanced would be a plus
Tube buffer
Volume control so the DAC can be used as a preamp.--COOL with remote volume control AWESOME<<<<<
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Also, how about a jumper so the volume pot can be taken out if needed.
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How about a "D100C" board?
A "D100C" board would allow you put $1 bills in one side of the DAC and it would then "spit out" $100.00's from the other side!?! :wink:
Sorry, I'm just in a (obviously) stupid, silly mood!
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Giant slaying sound quality.
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Asynchronous USB 24/96 input
SPDIF input, 1 coaxial and 1 optical
RCA output
Apodizing filter (configurable)
There are so many DACs out there these days, at some pretty terrific price points too. Wondering what the product differentiation would be for Virtue.
Requests for HT bypass, analog inputs, volume control, etc. are basically asking for a preamp with a built-in DAC. But I think that's a preamp, not a DAC. Perhaps Virtue should build a digitally smart preamp, but I really do think that's something different.
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Requests for HT bypass, analog inputs, volume control, etc. are basically asking for a preamp with a built-in DAC. But I think that's a preamp, not a DAC. Perhaps Virtue should build a digitally smart preamp, but I really do think that's something different.
It really is a preamp with built in DAC which makes it unique.
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Hell while we're making it into a preamp give us dual subwoofer outputs and tone controls.
Great guys, we were on the verge of getting a DAC, now we won't see the thing for three years.
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I use a USB->spdif transport because the USB implementation on most DAC's are pretty average, so it would be nice to see async in a dedicated DAC. Being able to switch out the tube stage would be good as well.
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Following on from the last comment by Rclark, I'd sort of have to ask whether a DAC wouldn't be best implemented as a ... DAC.
Digital in, analog out, that's what the letters stand for.
The problem with units that merge functions is that (and this is just my take on this) people get confused about what they are exactly. Everyone already has a DAC. So A Virtue DAC can just be swapped in and out to any system and compared. Adding more to it might sound appealing to some but at some point it really just confuses the issue. You end up having to reconfigure your system because you have that one unit; in the end it is (in my experience from maybe a decade ago) somewhat futile.
A digital preamp would be a different product.
As far as as a DAC goes, I'd want 24/96 in for USB and S/PDIF, with no caveats on the USB performance, and no need to add additional gizmos to get the best performance that the unit can provide.
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... As far as as a DAC goes, I'd want 24/96 in for USB and S/PDIF, with no caveats on the USB performance, and no need to add additional gizmos to get the best performance that the unit can provide.
+1. Agree w/ your post 100% JohnR.
KISS - Keep it simple Seth. :green:
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A DAC has to have balanced in and balanced out or I won't even consider it. That's my system and I'm sticking to it. :lol:
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Most of us have highly tweaked systems including preamps, tube buffer passive pres, optocoupler volume controls, etc and in my opinion, a DAC with a volume control can only degrade the music quality. Don't do it! Build this as a DAC only (no preamp) or you'll be selling to a market not as interested in sound quality.
There are plenty of other DAC manufacturers (maybe too many) that have middle of the road DACs for this market. Build this DAC as high a quality as you can and strip the unnecessary options to keep the cost competitive. USB implemented to the highest quality would be the goal. Other input options secondary. Unbalanced would be best since a balanced DAC would increase the complexity of the circuit and hence the cost of parts.
Make this a high quality USB DAC without tons of gizmos and you'll potentially have a success. Of course, this is all dependent upon your ultimate price. Lowest price for highest quality will sell. Several models might be a way to go but again adds complexity for you. Make the first DAC your best cleanest sound and beat the other competitors on price rather than features (i.e. Antelope, Metric Halo, Young DAC, etc.)
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hallo.
i would like to have on virtur dac a display that says the bit rate and sample rate of signal input.
and a buffered input, of course.
:? please, could someone explain to me what is the difference from a balance and unbalanced output?
i'll connect dac to may sensation 901. which kind of dac output i'll need?
:D antonio (dac fever is increasing!!!!)
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Antonio,
Unbalanced connections use RCA jacks and Balanced connections usually use XLR connectors. Your Sensation uses unbalanced connections.
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Basic DAC with highest quality SQ. USB, Coax, 2 Optical inputs min. Dual analog outs (switchable)
24v input to be able to share Dodd battery power supply. Small footprint would be nice for desktop use.
Quality sells!
All the other bells and whistles can be found elsewhere in the myriad of complex and overpriced DACs that are currently available.
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Antonio,
Unbalanced connections use RCA jacks and Balanced connections usually use XLR connectors. Your Sensation uses unbalanced connections.
ok, thanks.
when would be used an unbalaced connection?
antonio
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Thanks for the terrific feedback.
The first version will be simple and fantastic sounding, as most of you describe.
Since we're in the digital realm, volume control is costless sonically.
However, more features take more space externally so you'll definitely see small and simple before you'll see large and complex.
I've been doing a lot of travelling for work and checking in with Aaron every few days. He seems to be doing nicely and I have told him that RMAF anvil will fall from the sky on his head, if this thing isn't done, done, done by then. He's a good man and I know he can do it!
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I'd like to see it in the Melissa platform so that it'll look great with my M901.
Or at least, aesthetically compatible with the Melissa.
Agreed with the above about keeping it to a DAC only.
1 USB, 1 Coax, 1 Digitial in.
1 RCA out
No volume control - that's what the amp/s are for
All implementation of the inputs need to be fully implemented so there's no need for another box. This is especially true for the USB - I have to run an USB/SPDIF between my computer & DAC because the USB is non-asyncronous (my bad, wrong purchase). I can use the USB input, but I know there's a better sound option. Give me one box for inputs!
It would also be interesting to implement some future proofing in the inputs. There are other inputs out there - and new ones coming such as apple thunderbolt (which may or may not be good for audio in future). It would be interesting to have a fourth input area that is empty for now, but that Virtue could sell a slot-in input option in future. The functional-comparison is a desktop computer that has a number of slots that you can mix & match components in - and which sit empty when not yet used.
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I hate to rain on everyone's parade here but it would seem to be a poor business decision to get into the DAC market at the moment. There is a veritable glut of quality product out there at VERY good price points. Be it the Schiit BiFrost, the CEntrance DACmini, or any number of other dacs, there are people out there who are much more than expert in this area.
Virtue is a brand name and it might be able to sell dacs based on that. But that's not what Seth built his company on.
Actually the one thing that was said that I agree with was to build a dac based upon the Melisa platform. I have a Grant Fidelity DAC-09 at the moment and it looks pretty darn good on my M-901. But I'm in upgrade mode so I've ordered a CEntrance DACmini ... and paid an additional $199 just to get it in black to help go with my amp. Unfortunately the thing is only 6 and a bit inches wide and not even 2 high. I'm thinking it's going to look odd in place of the DAC-09 but we'll see.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55525)
Regards
Dave
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six channels for dsd/sacd/dvd-a files and HT/Mac mini media center use volume control is good.....to use as a limiter with pure music player and the like to prevent castrophic fat finger or software glitch volume incidents. hdmi/thunderbolt input? first of its kind?
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Despite there being a "glut" of dacs out there (and I've had several people tell me the Bifrost is nothing special, good for its price range, but nothing to write home about) a battery powered high performance Virtue Dac would stand out from the crowd like a beacon.
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I do think that ours will smoke and you'll understand why we made it after you listen to it.
And god bless capitalism for making sure that opportunities to make money collapse quickly and competitive differentiation is increasingly difficult.
In some industries, that's still the American way. Bring it on.
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~
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I do think that ours will smoke and you'll understand why we made it after you listen to it.
And god bless capitalism for making sure that opportunities to make money collapse quickly and competitive differentiation is increasingly difficult.
In some industries, that's still the American way. Bring it on.
Despite my comment, I'm cheering for you. It's hard not to.
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I'm in the market for a DAC and would prefer a US built one with these features:
Asynchronous (preferably without drivers) USB input, 24/96 minimum.
Tube output stage (no additional SS output to complicate things).
RCA outs.
Nice and simple.
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Asynch isn't the be all - end all. It's the design of the package as a whole that determines how well a given implementation will work. For a good argument in this regard: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/centrance/1.html
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Balanced outputs, gain control, and a medical isolation transformer.
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Leave out the volume control, dac only please. Keep it pure.
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A gain control makes a preamp unnecessary. Moreover, if you are purest, you wouldn't want a preamp!
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I just don't want it to interfere with my lovely LDR. I just want that pure Virtue goodness going into my Warp, then on to more Virtue goodness. Volume is covered.
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What's LDR?
I recently acquired some active studio monitors and I will never go back to passive hi fi audiophile speakers, stats or planners. The +/- 3 db status quo is unacceptable! No matter what the amp! I have an inexpensive Beresford DAC, which has a gain control, line out straight into the monitors. No preamp, speaker cables, crossovers to muck things up - and no wonky frequency response. The results from this sort of thing is quite different. And I like - a lot!
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My only comment is for the inputs: allow them to be modular.
Three in, three separate modules.
So a person can have the ones they want, or even just one to save money. (but the spaces in place for future use)
Have ONE of the spaces deeper for the complete USB section.
So it can be upgraded or whatever.
Then options of toslink, AES-EBU, RCA, others.. available for the other portals. Plug in. easy, user can unplug/plug in.
And one module avilable for converting 5.1 video codec to 2 channel so it can be converted by DAC.
Anyway.. this is what i would be wanting in a DAC.
(actually i want like FIVE toslink inputs, plus two AES-EBU in.. but i am crazy...)
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In addition you may want to make sure your USB implementation is USB Class 2 audio compliant. This allows for the growing Linux server compatibility, driverless in the MAC world, and easy Windows install too. And finally, on top of everyone else's comments...native DSD capability (via dCS's clever open USB protocol and/or ASIO if Windows).
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A DAC only no pre or volume control. Non upsampling 24/96. KISS. No analog board. Transfomer coupled from the analog out of the DA conversion. Using the preamps analog board instead.
An invert polarity switch. Two inputs, two outputs, a grounded shielded case, a 75 ohm pulse transformer on the digital input. IEC outlet. Quality internal wiring and Silver coated copper RCAs [ Audionote or Vampire] .Last but not least a killer separate power supply.
All for under $2000. :thumb:
charles
charles
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In addition you may want to make sure your USB implementation is USB Class 2 audio compliant. This allows for the growing Linux server compatibility, driverless in the MAC world, and easy Windows install too. And finally, on top of everyone else's comments...native DSD capability (via dCS's clever open USB protocol and/or ASIO if Windows).
Important stuff these days....+1 :thumb:
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Guys,
If we finish strong it will have most of what everyone wants.
Battery powerable.
USB 192 compatible, driverless on MAC.
Transformers, yes.
Digital stays digital (volume control exists but doesn't matter).
Analog stays analog.
2 x TOSLINK.
1 (or 2) x COAX.
Remote control.
Great headphone with hi/low outputs.
Small form factor.
No tubes.
We're looking at a best-case scenario of 3-4 months. The PROS have been working on this (no pennies spared).
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
Seth
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Aw crap.
I always wondered how the heck someone ends up with two and three dacs....
So what's this one going to cost me Seth? (The 'sucking up to the wife' figure will cost me proportionately to the cost of this dac also, which I'll of course have to have).
Regards
Dave
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Won't cost more than $1,000 and much less on pre-order. Virtue is still a charity ;-)
Love you brother!!!!
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HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! Great news Seth!!! Give your bride a kiss for all of us and you and the crew there enjoy a great New Year..... :thumb: :banana piano: :beer: :violin: :drums: :guitar: :thankyou:
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Damn! I just bought a Bifrost. O well...guess you can never have too many DAC's :)
Scott
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And I was just breaking in my Audio-gd!
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Thanks for the update Seth I'm glad to hear things are coming along:)
So no tubes on the dac but is there any chance the tube buffer might be offered on the Three (optional)?
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Thanks for the update Seth I'm glad to hear things are coming along:)
So no tubes on the dac but is there any chance the tube buffer might be offered on the Three (optional)?
Gary offers an external buffer so its always an option.
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Won't cost more than $1,000 and much less on pre-order. Virtue is still a charity ;-)
Love you brother!!!!
A very reasonable cost. An invert polarity switch could make it a David the Lion slayer.
charles
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An "invert polarity" switch? Can you explain why that would be desirable and how it would be implemented?
Tubes would be part of a Sensation II offering but it's just too early to say. We prototyped dual, switchable tubes 3 years ago... The best laid plans often go astray...
Seth
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Any chance of some proto-type pics so we can begin dreaming/fantasizing/drooling?
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It's gonna look a lot like the Virtue ONE.2. Most of the world still has no idea who we are and what our products look like so I hope you don't mind seeing more of the same ;-) I quite like it!
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Battery powerable.
USB 192 compatible, driverless on MAC.
Transformers, yes.
Digital stays digital (volume control exists but doesn't matter).
Analog stays analog.
2 x TOSLINK.
1 (or 2) x COAX.
Remote control.
Great headphone with hi/low outputs.
Small form factor.
No tubes.
I only really care about FireWire in... so i'd ask for a Thunderbolt port (min 24/196) which can be USB or Firewire (or a range of other things)
dave
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It's gonna look a lot like the Virtue ONE.2. Most of the world still has no idea who we are and what our products look like so I hope you don't mind seeing more of the same ;) I quite like it!
So you're saying it's not going to look like this?
BTW, this one has an Invert polarity switch !
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55805)
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An "invert polarity" switch? Can you explain why that would be desirable and how it would be implemented?
Tubes would be part of a Sensation II offering but it's just too early to say. We prototyped dual, switchable tubes 3 years ago... The best laid plans often go astray...
Seth
I'll keep my fingers crossed then ;)
Thank you Seth and Happy New Year to the Virtue Audio family
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We'll have jason work up some "invert polarity" cables ;-) Cable A for standard polarity, Cable B for inverted ;-)
Firewire... interesting but another module to build and put in there.
Why not USB 2.0? Is 480 Mb/s not enough bandwidth?
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Why not USB 2.0? Is 480 Mb/s not enough bandwidth?
It isn't the speed its the finese.
dave
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An "invert polarity" switch? Can you explain why that would be desirable and how it would be implemented?
Tubes would be part of a Sensation II offering but it's just too early to say. We prototyped dual, switchable tubes 3 years ago... The best laid plans often go astray...
Seth
Hey Seth not all recordings are in correct polarity. Having , less sibilance with vocals and tighter deeper bass. Just a simple switch, thats it.
charles
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Seth I believe most USB implementations in DACS are 2.0, I don't think 3.0 is really any kind of improvement in this scenario. Speed of signal doesn't effect fidelity does it??? I don't know for sure but I wouldn't think so....
+1 on the form factor Seth...It will match up with everyones Two.2 or One.2.......NICE!!!!!
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Hey Seth not all recordings are in correct polarity. Having , less sibilance with vocals and tighter deeper bass. Just a simple switch, thats it.
charles
Not all tracks with-in a given recording are necessarily in phase either. Multi-speaker cabinets have phase problems. Much ado over nothing?
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/polarity/polarity.html
Regards
Dave
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Seth I believe most USB implementations in DACS are 2.0, I don't think 3.0 is really any kind of improvement in this scenario. Speed of signal doesn't effect fidelity does it??? I don't know for sure but I wouldn't think so....
+1 on the form factor Seth...It will match up with everyones Two.2 or One.2.......NICE!!!!!
I was hoping for the Melisa form factor Ed. Just show's it's tough to please everyone!
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I was hoping for the Melisa form factor Ed. Just show's it's tough to please everyone!
That may come later based on what Seth has said.
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We'll definitely work to put all of this in a Melissa chassis. I just need to see this working flawlessly in the small box before we "go big" and add an amp, etc.
There are a bunch of things on the board which only make sense in a Melissa chassis... for instance, an LCD panel, more inputs, balanced outputs, buffer I/O, etc.
Seth
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Would love to have a replaceable board ... USB Technology changes too quickly - changing every year ...
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The USB board is a daughter board and we'll sell it separately also. It's XMOS based and is now something of a commodity (HRT, etc.)
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Linux compatibility please.
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Guys,
If we finish strong it will have most of what everyone wants.
Battery powerable.
USB 192 compatible, driverless on MAC.
Transformers, yes.
Digital stays digital (volume control exists but doesn't matter).
Analog stays analog.
2 x TOSLINK.
1 (or 2) x COAX.
Remote control.
Great headphone with hi/low outputs.
Small form factor.
No tubes.
We're looking at a best-case scenario of 3-4 months. The PROS have been working on this (no pennies spared).
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
Seth
is there gonna be a "budget werson" w/o:
-wolume control
-headfone amp
-remote control
this would be nice. ya know - for those only wanting a dac? :green:
oh, and most important, will it sound better than my modded art d/io dac? i haven't heard of anything even remotely reasonably priced (and a lot not reasonably priced) that can do this... :wink:
doug s.
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We're working on an "almost as good sounding" version for DIY and possibly an enclosure. The DIY board could be in the $400 range; we'll see. As you may expect from us, the product uses some VERY expensive parts. This is not just a fancy wrapper around a $2 DAC chip.
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Would I be able to stick this DIY board into my Sensation? :icon_twisted:
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Well then done. It's coming for sure so I don't even need to look at other dacs. Except I think I'm probably gonna want the full enchilada version. It will be the last large purchase for this system and the icing on the cake.
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We're working on an "almost as good sounding" version for DIY and possibly an enclosure. The DIY board could be in the $400 range; we'll see. As you may expect from us, the product uses some VERY expensive parts. This is not just a fancy wrapper around a $2 DAC chip.
"almost as good sounding"? :( how about "as good sounding, but w/o the frills"? :wink:
best,
doug s.
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Would I be able to stick this DIY board into my Sensation? :icon_twisted:
Now THAT is interesting!!
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Well then done. It's coming for sure so I don't even need to look at other dacs. Except I think I'm probably gonna want the full enchilada version. It will be the last large purchase for this system and the icing on the cake.
I think we've all said this at one point. I really hope you're stronger than the rest of us Rclark. I don't think there ever will be a "last piece" in my life :duh:
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Now THAT is interesting!!
I know, right? The ultimate would be to have a DIY kit that includes a new back panel that accommodates the new digital inputs. Just dreaming here.
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I know, right? The ultimate would be to have a DIY kit that includes a new back panel that accommodates the new digital inputs. Just dreaming here.
Something that might slide into place as a module where the current lid goes would be pretty sick. With the Dodd buffer and the big Clarity MRs in there, I don't have much room left anymore.
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Inside my sensation would be sweet. A Melissa look alike would be sweet, though I don't need a DAC/pre.
When the one.2 shaped one comes out I'll be thinking hard about getting it. He aesthetics next to the sensation, though is a consideration. He sensations 4' high and one.2 5' high (website specs). If they were he same height I'd be happy.
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I think we've all said this at one point. I really hope you're stronger than the rest of us Rclark. I don't think there ever will be a "last piece" in my life :duh:
Yeah, you're right, I forgot I'll need a HiRez rig to go with my dac :duh: It never ends
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The USB board is a daughter board and we'll sell it separately also. It's XMOS based and is now something of a commodity (HRT, etc.)
The Eximus DP1(XMOS) that is here, is standing up to the $7700 Weiss Dac with no problems. My froend in fact, is selling his Weiss Dac 202 because of it. XMOS based is a killer.
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If a DIY'er were to get all the boards (there are a bunch), you'll have a "just as good" solution, cheaper because you'll need to assemble it.
Without all of them, you give up DSP which will affect SQ slightly. I'll try to iron things out and regardless, nobody should lose sleep over it. If you buy the "basic" board (USB/COAX/12v in, analog out) and want to juice it later, you can buy the rest of them and get it all...
Crossing fingers.
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hi,
when diy basic configuration (12v+usb+board) will be sell?
it will be sold before definitive enclosured virtue dac?
thanks
antonio
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how about 4 ch DAC on firewire or USB?
its time for digital XO
cheers
henry
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Battery powerable.
USB 192 compatible, driverless on MAC.
Transformers, yes.
Digital stays digital (volume control exists but doesn't matter).
Analog stays analog.
2 x TOSLINK.
1 (or 2) x COAX.
Remote control.
Great headphone with hi/low outputs.
Small form factor.
No tubes.
Seth, can you comment a bit more on the transformers? I'm trying to understand why they are so desirable on the analog output stage. Just like with caps a transformer can only do damage to the signal, increasingly less so the more expensive the transformer admittedly. Is the impedance matching so beneficial that it outweighs whatever smearing and time domain issues the transformer is introducing to the audio signal?
As for my 02 cents, it all looks good to me except I can't see many people really using the headphone option in a DAC. That seems like something that belongs with the amplifier in a person's system. When you put it all together in a Melissa enclosure with a Sensation II amp section to make the best bang for the buck integrated on earth I'll be in line to buy one.
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Seth have you seen that some new dacs are hitting 844k sampling rate? I hope you get to borrow one of those as you develop.
...so can't wait to see the Virtue dac.
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I've not seen that -- nuts. Does all of this new silicon work?
I'm pretty confident that the old-school/new-school approach we've always taken will work out in 2012. Regardless, I hedged my bets on picking a horse after Aaron's departure. We basically started again (for the 6th time perhaps) and the latest designs are extremely modular and re-configurable. That's the only way we'd ever be able to keep up long-term.
Seth
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So its square one-ish again??? Do Tell--We can take it.........?????
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Time is the biggest killer of digital today - it has very short life - give and take a year before the sales become stale ... good luck speeding up getting the product in production ...