AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Circles => Hypex Owners Circle => Topic started by: jtwrace on 6 May 2012, 05:47 pm
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Since there is talk in the other thread about the NC1200 modules I thought I'd start a thread about them.
These are the manufacturers that are using the NC1200 modules that I know of. Feel free to add to it.
http://mola-mola.nl/
rumored to be $11,500
http://www.acousticimagery.com/
http://www.acousticimagery.com/page2.htm
http://www.tweekgeek.com/acoustic-imagery/
$9,000
http://www.thetadigital.com/index.shtml
rumored to be $12,000
http://merrillaudio.net/veritas.html
$9k
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Hypex NCore Monoblock Amplifiers – A Mola-Mola Preview Review?
http://www.audiophilejournal.com/hypex-ncore-monoblock-amplifiers-mola-mola/
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Hypex NCore Monoblock Amplifiers – A Mola-Mola Preview Review?
http://www.audiophilejournal.com/hypex-ncore-monoblock-amplifiers-mola-mola/
Interesting stuff, Bruno has alluded to the UcD modules being upgraded with NCore tech, this give a nice explaination of how they will be changed.
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Since there is talk in the other thread about the NC1200 modules I thought I'd start a thread about them.
These are the manufacturers that are using the NC1200 modules that I know of. Feel free to add to it.
http://mola-mola.nl/
rumored to be $11,500
http://www.acousticimagery.com/
rumored sub $10,000
http://www.thetadigital.com/index.shtml
rumored to be $12,000
The pre amp with the built in DAC is interesting looking.
Bruno has alluded to DIT modules for DIY D/A converters and DSP modules one wonders if they will be derived form the Pre Amp Mola Mola is bringing to market.
Combined with the NCore and up graded UcD Modules could be one stop shopping for Diy'ers looking for an end to end solution.
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Perhaps one of the lucky High End Show attendees can tell me if there was any indication as to the release date for the Mola Mola??, and did the preamp/dac have a remote?
Thanks a lot- looking forward to seeing the other OEM versions materialize although the Mola Mola definately has my attention pending more info..
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Nice mention for Bruno and Mola-Mola on this page of 6 Moons' industry feature on the High End Society Munich 2012 show (http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/munich2012/3.html).
Martin
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Nice mention for Bruno and Mola-Mola on this page of 6 Moons' industry feature on the High End Society Munich 2012 show (http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/munich2012/3.html).
Martin
This was worth reading in that article. The Mola Mola's are going to be improved.
"Under the hood of the curved mono amps sits the already renowned Ncore module but contrary to the evaluation models we reviewed recently, the Mola Mola version gets an enhanced discrete input stage to further improve the circuitry."
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This was worth reading in that article. The Mola Mola's are going to be improved.
"Under the hood of the curved mono amps sits the already renowned Ncore module but contrary to the evaluation models we reviewed recently, the Mola Mola version gets an enhanced discrete input stage to further improve the circuitry."
Just to dispell confusion the NC 400 has had a discrete input stage, this was something requested by the DIY community in leiu of the op amp inputs used with the UcD modules.
As I understood it the NC1200 for OEM's was not foing to have an input stage so the OEM could provide their own.
If I were to guess the Mola's are going to use the Discrete Op Amp stage Bruno made for the NC400.
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The Hypex NC400 can be assembled for under $2000. Lets more than double that price for manufacturing and all that goes with it to say, $4500. I'd like to know what is in the NC1200 modules and power supplies that takes the price up to $9000 and beyond?
I don't know what the OEM price of the NC1200 modules are, but let's say they're 2-3 times the NC400. Also, assume the chassis is 2-3x as expensive as the cheap, low rent, high volume stuff you can get in abundance. Add labor, higher end parts, and I think you're at least at $4500, could be more.
Now you need to make enough margin to pay the bills, pay down the equipment and facilities investment, factor in future warranty obligations, and maybe make a profit too.
$9000 doesn't seem so extreme. Anyway, there's nothing wrong with charging what the market might be able to bear, or using value based rather than cost based pricing.
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I'd like to know what is in the NC1200 modules and power supplies that takes the price up to $9000 and beyond?
High Power Exclusivity with this. :lol:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=62979)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=62980)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=62981)
The above data from http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC1200_datasheet.pdf
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I don't mean to say this is an unworthy or completely run of the mill switching amplifier design and technology. I want them myself. On the other hand there doesn't appear to be any extremely costly components on the slightly larger 1200 modules compared to the 400's. If there are then that is my question. If the reason is casework, I feel the manufacture may benefit from a discussion.
Granted, the Mola casework may be attractive but at what cost? I'm positive the simple and sensibly priced extrusion casework of the initial nCore review sample would stunningly outsell the Mola. Or am I alone here?
The history of the overall success of a unique class D design remains to be economy. That an inexpensive design can, in my opinion, out perform the ridiculously exotic 1%'r audio products and do it in a more green fashion is the big deal. The whole idea of giant killing in this goofy hobby is the wholly grail of a designers success.
The Devialet, for all it's unique casework features and its sonic advancements, may remain suspect to most of us who may never be able to do an in home audition because of its high retail cost. Buy the time used units hit the market this class of amplifier is on a completely higher level of performance. Just check the price of a, not that old, dCS stack of digital conversion.
The reviews that seem to count are from the number of satisfied customers in places like this. Customers who, collectively, have done far more in home comparisons than the remarks of the slightly questionable industry periodicals.
The best way to steal money in this market is by a popular solid design that goes into SE or Signature status. Steve Nugent is very open about a segment of his market that wants unique and stylish casework. He is doing it and he's open about the ridiculously high cost of the project. His DAC is race proven, the nCore hasn't even hit the ground.
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My 2 cents.
I think it's pretty easy to look at the costs of the parts for audio equipment, and complain about the markup.
So, if you can build it DIY for much cheaper, go ahead and build yourself one, or if you can get someone to build one for you, then go for it.
To build one to produce, then you have engineering and development costs, overhead, etc to cover. At 10K each, you're not selling a ton of these, so you have to amortize your engineering costs over fewer units.
I would hazard to guess if you look at other high end audio products, you'll find a larger ratio of material cost to product cost. In a digital amp like this, there is probably less engineering cost for the amp manufacturer since a lot of the engineering went into the NC1200 modules, which are embedded in the module cost.
Randy
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Lots of useful comments above...
There are two amps I know of with tube input stage for voltage multiplication. One, powering fantastic sounding Vandy 5A Carbon, may be the best I've heard: Aesthetix, with SS output stage. The other is made in The Netherlands and sold in Europe, Guido (OOW-doh) Tent's Tent Labs hybrid, with a sweet transformer coupling the tube to Bruno's Hypex UcD output stage. Guido and Bruno are close to each other geographically and professionally. A friend whose taste I know and admire bought the Tent Labs hybrid and loves it.
So apparently NC1200 already comes with discreet input. I wonder if Guido and/or anyone else work on a tube input stage for the NC1200? Guido already has a costly Ncore-self-powered speaker that my friend said sounded great.
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I don't mean to say this is an unworthy or completely run of the mill switching amplifier design and technology. I want them myself. On the other hand there doesn't appear to be any extremely costly components on the slightly larger 1200 modules compared to the 400's. If there are then that is my question. If the reason is casework, I feel the manufacture may benefit from a discussion.
The NC1200 does have more power. If you need the power, then there is no DIY option.
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It's already been posted in it's own thread. :thumb:
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" To both Jeff and I this new amplifier technology represents a stunning achievement – one that is immediately obvious in its benefits to the listener – one that single handedly blows away all the years of work we’ve lavished on polishing our analog amp designs. "..........
WOW!!!!..... Respect to Paul and Jeff for having the **lls to put that in print.
We are :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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The input circuitry of most amplifiers is a Class A circuit, this small signal circuitry burns very little current in Class A and has no big power bill or demand on the power supply compared to a Class A output stage.
It would be nice if PS Audio didn't "pot" this new circuit as they have with past GAIN CELL circuits. Epoxy is not not your friend sonically speaking.
Scotty
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I'm pretty sure all the 1200 modules will be getting some type of custom input circuit, as Bruno designed them for this purpose so the different mfrs. could make them their own...
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I'm pretty sure all the 1200 modules will be getting some type of custom input circuit, as Bruno designed them for this purpose so the different mfrs. could make them their own...
You got it- jhm731- you raised a logical question- but unlike NC400+SMPS plug and play you see among DIY community , with NC1200 Hypex has given flexibility to the OEM and they are free to add relevant input stages and price accordingly.
I am impressed with Hypex for clearly providing value to DIY community and at same time establishing clear rules and enabling value-add OEMs to offer a better product and differentiate themselves. :thumb:
Of course my secret hope is NC400 is 99% of NC1200 implementation :P but until we hear them it will be just conjecture.
The blue glow underneath the case is pretty cool-acoustic imagery!
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No more
just conjecture
Yesterday (Saturday) I heard the Veritas Mono Blocks by Merrill Audio at Occam's vs his custom NC400.
Wow! :o
Methinks its the best amp I ever heard in Paul/Occam's system. Smooth like butta on the top with resolution to boot, and a solid bass with seemingly unlimited power. Certainly was superior to Paul's enhanced NC400.
May the money Gods rain money down near me so I can afford it/them. $9k+
:P
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New pix of the Veritas mono-block...
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8325/8080808475_e860c6c089.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20967309@N06/8080808475/)
DSCN2756 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20967309@N06/8080808475/#) by Barry (NJ) (http://www.flickr.com/people/20967309@N06/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8052/8080804134_31c9aa47af.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20967309@N06/8080804134/)
DSCN2719 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20967309@N06/8080804134/#) by Barry (NJ) (http://www.flickr.com/people/20967309@N06/), on Flickr
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Looks great! The price is way out of my budget. Unfortunately, even the "special deal" given to "beta testers" is probably out of range for me.
The casework and logo really do look very nice. No doubt they sound great. Ate these the standard switching ps or do they have a custom power supply?
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They utilize the Hypex SMPS1200 power-supply. For what it's worth, Merrill Audio didn't offer "Beta Test" pricing. Beta Test implies that there were bugs to be worked out. It is "Charter" pricing to help spread the word and get some buzz going on a new product, from a new manufacturer.
Whats the manufacturers background ? Not much info on the website.
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He's an EE with a passion for audio, but the designer of the boards is Burno Putzeys and the manufacturer of the boards is Hypex corp of the Netherlands. I did the company logo and design of the amp face ;)
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Whats the manufacturers background ? Not much info on the website.
Good question. I have never heard of them...I was under the impression that the ncore1200 was only going to be made available to well established companies...
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Good question. I have never heard of them...I was under the impression that the ncore1200 was only going to be made available to well established companies...
I don't know the arrangement that was made between Merrill Audio and Hypex, but the Veritas amps are hand assembled with great care and careful selection of complementary components, by the principal of the company here in New Jersey.
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Atsah Review:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticimagery/1.html
(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticimagery/open.png)
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I received a pair of Veritas amps yesterday and I am VERY pleased, they are MUCH better than the DIY NC400s!
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I have a pai of the Atsah amps here on demo this weekend. I agree, these are quite a bit better than the NC400's that I listened to earlier.
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Could you guys please add some more details to your reviews?
In what ways specifically do you consider the NC1200 better than the NC400?
the bass, the midrange, treble?
For example, the clarity, or the absence of background intermod distortion "noise" is already world-class on the NC400
So if I had to guess, perhaps the NC1200 has a more coherent sound? i.e. sharper sounding transients?
Very curious. . .
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Copy/paste of my opinion when asked on diyAudio:
I do not know why the Veritas amps sound so good, my NC400 amps were put together very basically and still sounded the best I had heard.
As far as the snickering about price and subtle differences, perhaps I should put my opinion in context. I do NOT hear the differences (improvements?) from things like connectors, metals, pebbles and so many of the other tweeks that I read about. I remember a rather uncomfortable time when a fellow was demonstrating Shakti Hallographs in my living room, exclaiming "Hear that??? Do you hear that?!!!". I didn't. While curious I also remain VERY skeptical of processes like quantum tunneling using 2,000,000 volts tesla coils for fuses.
That said, the Veritas amps completely redefine my ideas of what my speakers are capable of. I listened to everything from internet radio streaming to SACDs directly from the BD player to the amps. Add the efficiency and other attributes and I am thrilled.
Oh, other amps I've recently owned were Parasound JC-1, CJ LP276M and the NC400s.
So, the sound... All the buzzwords, I guess. Deathly quiet, palpable room loading, unbelievable low end control, amazing detail extraction without stridency, terrific separation of musical lines while still naturally blended, etc.
I also want to say how impressed I am with the physical construction, feels like a solid slab of aluminum, internal layout is clean and gives the modules the best possible environment.
Finally, I do plan to see if I can tell the difference when I install Quantum SR20 fuses next week, currently the amps have stock NC400 fuses in them. I almost hope I don't (I wonder if that sentiment will affect my perception?).
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Regnad, thanks for the detail. While no opinions here are gospel, I value every serious contribution. Let us know how those fuses work out.
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Regnad, to your impression of the Merrill Audio amps my questions remain, Are they MUSICAL, how do they image, hows the soundstage you get the idea. Please respond I'm considering a pair. Thanks!
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Regnad, to your impression of the Merrill Audio amps my questions remain, Are they MUSICAL, how do they image, hows the soundstage you get the idea. Please respond I'm considering a pair. Thanks!
Yes, the Acoustic Imagery ATSAH amps do all those things extremely well. Very Very Musical too. I couldn't be happier. :thumb:
Also, the casework is second to none.
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On my system, the Atsah's are warmer, smoother, more open and holographic, and a bigger soundstage. They are also more musical than the Ncore 400's. Actually from top to bottom these are better at my house. As for weight, these are 3-4 times heavier than the NC400's.
I still had my usual AC glare problems here on Fiday night and could not play them, but Thursday night and late Saturday night I played these amps for three hours straight at loud levels and never heard any AC glare.
The 6moons review is one review that you can bank on if you are interested in Atsah's. Santa, all I need is a pair of Atsah mono amps for Christmas. And add one of those Apple mini Ipads.
:thumb:
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Does anyone know why the Atsah uses the Hypex soft-start module? I remember reading that the SMPS700 already had that "built-in".
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Does anyone know why the Atsah uses the Hypex soft-start module? I remember reading that the SMPS700 already had that "built-in".
If you look at the picture I posted above, you can see the Hypex soft-start module board.
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Does anyone know why the Atsah uses the Hypex soft-start module? I remember reading that the SMPS700 already had that "built-in".
Hi Regnad
It's simply a very convenient way to bring the mains into the case and has the options to use a switch or a pushbutton and an LED all on the same board and it adds next to nothing to the cost of parts.
Cheers
John
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John,
Thanks very much for explaining and good luck with your venture.
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Could you guys please add some more details to your reviews?
In what ways specifically do you consider the NC1200 better than the NC400?
the bass, the midrange, treble?
For example, the clarity, or the absence of background intermod distortion "noise" is already world-class on the NC400
So if I had to guess, perhaps the NC1200 has a more coherent sound? i.e. sharper sounding transients?
Very curious. . .
A) The Mola Mola isn't out yet so there isn't yet the definitive NC1200 amp, as gorgeous sexy as the Atsah's are.
B) until someone can compare a Mola Mola and bridged pair of NC400's, it's all speculation. People seem to forget the formidable bridged 400 in the newness of the new 12's. Now the reports of the NC400's sound quality are well documented. The reports on the NC1200 are nebulous and laced with suspicion,by comparison. Terse, questionable, highly incomplete. Better, or voiced, indeed. There is yet no definitive answer.
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A) The Mola Mola isn't out yet so there isn't yet the definitive NC1200 amp, as gorgeous sexy as the Atsah's are.
B) until someone can compare a Mola Mola and bridged pair of NC400's, it's all speculation. People seem to forget the formidable bridged 400 in the newness of the new 12's. Now the reports of the NC400's sound quality are well documented. The reports on the NC1200 are nebulous and laced with suspicion,by comparison. Terse, questionable, highly incomplete. Better, or voiced, indeed. There is yet no definitive answer.
of course it is mere speculation whether or not the "definitive nc1200 amp" is out there yet. that's because not all nc1200's are out there, not because the mola-mola is not out there yet! :lol:
and the reports on the nc1200 are FAR from "nebulous and laced with suspicion..." in fact, it seems clear, at least from those who have tried, that they are considerably better than the nc400's. what is nebulous & laced w/suspicion is the opinion that the molo-mola is the "definitive" nc1200 amp, when it's not even out yet! 8)
and what's terse and questionable is your statement that the reports on the nc1200 are terse & questionable. rclark, while i love a bargain as much as anyone, it seems to me that you are plainly averse to the idea that one might feel there is plainly something better, albeit for more money, than your $2k "game changer"...
doug s.
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What I meant by suspicion Doug, is that people didn't think the reports were genuine because nobody was up front about a beta program. That made people suspicious, especially considering that all along up until now, we've been told there isn't much difference beyond more power, even by Bruno himself. By terse, instead of pages and pages and pages of highly technical breakdown of why the NC400 is like this, you get a few sentences, and a "it's a lot better." Terse means short. By incomplete, just that, incomplete.
That's all. Not averse to anything, if it's true, I'll just aspire to a set. Where's the beef, that's all. And Doug, the 400 is highly reviewed, spectacular amp, up there with the up-there's. So the 1200 being a "lot better" is really saying something. Hopefully, not saying more power, but voiced, straying from the NC400 theme of hey the amp's not there sonically, build your system around that.
Mola Mola being the big one, that's just my opinion. A good bet, I'd say. A set of those against a set of bridged 400's would make for a "definitive" case.
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rclark, i have read all the same reviews/reports/posts/etc that you have... while i have my opinions, you are certainly entitled to yours... 8)
doug s.
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There is yet no definitive answer.
Can two audiophiles agree on Ohm's Law, much less amplifier subjective sound quality? :lol:
Just playin...
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Copy/paste of my opinion when asked on diyAudio:
I do not know why the Veritas amps sound so good, my NC400 amps were put together very basically and still sounded the best I had heard.
So, the sound... All the buzzwords, I guess. Deathly quiet, palpable room loading, unbelievable low end control, amazing detail extraction without stridency, terrific separation of musical lines while still naturally blended, etc.
Thanks for the review Regnad!
One more question:
The NC400 is already super quiet, already has outstanding low end control, etc
So are you saying for each of those qualities listed above, the NC1200 really outperforms the NC400?
This is a pretty amazing amp if this is the case - I think I am going to have to hear one myself!
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Can two audiophiles agree on Ohm's Law, much less amplifier subjective sound quality? :lol:
Just playin...
Very true, James....however issue here is that the disagreement is not over different SQ opinions, resulting from an actual audition of the equipment in question, but over SQ opinions writen/reported in the web by third parties. With a caveat, as we all have learned by now, Rclark usually makes the strongest pronouncements in favor of equipment (to illuminate us, I supposse) based not on valid equipment comparisons that result from his relevant or significant audition or ownership experience. His stands are based, for the most, on a fanatic belief in whatever he manages to understand or interpret out of whatever he reads in the web about equipment that strikes his fancy in line with his budget. But now, it seems, because it is out of his budgetary capabilities, he appears to be fanatically refusing to accept the credibility of any thing that presents the NC1200s as superior to his NC400s :scratch:
Of course, as the saying goes, he is entitled to his opinions...and, who knows, he may be right and the whole thing is nothing but an overt marketing ploy from Bruno and financial partner to get higher margins and recover the reportedly significant development cost of the NC modules (that is what I am starting to get from carefully reading the uber-extensive sixmoons review of the Atsah). It is intriguing why no major name company has really taking to produce NC1200 based amps (if I understand correctly, just a couple of basically new internet-based, direct-sale companies). I would venture that perhaps they realized that the embeded high Hypex margin squezzes significantly their own usual margin--unless they price themselves even higher, forcing the need for a true SQ-based product differenciation strategy. :dunno:
Mario
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You might consider a deeper study of the industry.
While I occasionally share your disgust with all the above, I would give Bruno my highest rating. While no one who sells equipment can be divested of sales results, either consciously or subconsciously, Bruno is good imho!!
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You might consider a deeper study of the industry.
While I occasionally share your disgust with all the above, I would give Bruno my highest rating. While no one who sells equipment can be divested of sales results, either consciously or subconsciously, Bruno is good imho!!
I stand corrected, my use of the word " marketing ploy" gives a negative connotation to what I am saying. I should have used "marketing strategy"....although please notice that I said "overt marketing ploy", as "in the open," not "concealed." I did not mean or imply any disrespect or contempt for Brunos's persona or business ethics...on the contrary, as an investment banker by profession, I totally admire both his technical and his business acumen, and kudos to him if his two tier price structure works as intended. However, I, myself, would be very dissapointed if the NC1200 happens to be nothing else but a more powerful NC400.
The following is an extract from the Atsah sixmoons review (a comment from a prospective OEM on decision of not going with the NC1200):
The only limit from a [NC1200's] popularity perspective is price. I believe Hypex spent a lot of money developing the Ncore module. I fully appreciate their pricing structure. But so far it is very expensive, far beyond what we can achieve with traditional class AB technology. I think that $10,000 is just a starter price for Ncore amps.
And this other one on the implicit relative lower profitability (lower volumes, low margin) of the NC400 DIY business segment:
"There's the NC400 module dedicated exclusively to DIY. That means not for profit, resale or large-scale production. There's also the more powerful NC1200 module (400w/8Ω, 700w/4Ω and 1200w/2Ω) which is available to select OEMs in buffered (94kΩ input) and non-buffer (5.3kΩ) versions but not to DIY"
These quotes are part of the basis for some of the comments in my previous post.
munosmario
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Nobody is suggesting a marketing ploy. The amps are what they are and all will be revealed in time. What I meant was, the perception of these initial reviews, and not necessarily by me, was that they were suspect merely because there was apparently a beta program available. Let's everybody calm down some, please. My own skepticism, otherwise, is valid until proven otherwise by a credible comparison.
And please reread what I said. I am very interested in the 1200's, I even said I think the Mola Mola's will be the best. I'm sure they will sell boatloads of them. If I had 13K on standby, for amps, that's exactly where my money would go.
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Nobody is suggesting a marketing ploy. The amps are what they are and all will be revealed in time. What I meant was, the perception of these initial reviews, and not necessarily by me, was that they were suspect merely because there was apparently a beta program available. Let's everybody calm down some, please. My own skepticism, otherwise, is valid until proven otherwise by a credible comparison.
And please reread what I said. I am very interested in the 1200's, I even said I think the Mola Mola's will be the best. I'm sure they will sell boatloads of them. If I had 13K on standby, for amps, that's exactly where my money would go.
Here you go again with your pronouncements. You are "very interested in the 1200s" (something that you cannot afford) but remain totally skeptical that the 1200's are any better "until proven otherwise by a credible comparison." Credible to whom? To you as the ultimate judge in reading third party reports? As dougS said, we all have access to those reports and most of us definitely have more experience, knowledge, and means in this hobby to evaluate those reports and reach our own conclusions without need for your confused prononcements.
Now, to the facts. When there is a two tier price structure with a 5X difference, for two very similar products targeted to two different market segments (without any reported [by the designer] clear difference, except for more power), there is, without doubt, a marketing strategy (or "overt matketing ploy" as I politically incorrectly refered to, initially). As suggested by "credible" industry participants , such strategy is to recover development costs (and get a proper economic return on the technology). Perfectly wise and legal proposition in a capitalistic system...whether fair or not, that depends on one's socialistic inclinations. From my perspective, I hope Bruno and his financial partner have success with this strategy, as well as that the 1200's claim to fame results in more than just power!
munosmario
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Rclark, you're a young fella, put the 13k into your house deposit fund.
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So are you saying for each of those qualities listed above, the NC1200 really outperforms the NC400?
Hi Dan, first please remember this is my ears, system, room etc...
Except for noise (nothing=nothing), it is startlingly better in all those areas. I should point out that the MBL speakers are unusual in that there are 4 gravity-challenged voice coils pushing big metal and carbon fiber material so an 81dB efficiency is not surprising. They also tend to sound better at higher volume which is probably why they are usually played loud at shows.
Perhaps it is the "overhead" power available that is largely responsible even at moderate volume levels. Maybe the very impressive case construction, wire and connectors, etc. of the Veritas amps are the reason.
Few more observations:
The amps have stock 5 amp fuses in their power supplies right now. Next week I will install SR20 fuses and I am looking forward to see if I will hear any difference.
I no longer need to have the JL Audio subs for 2-channel, I had no idea that the MBLs had a low end like that.
A friend was over yesterday and wanted to see "what this system can do" so we played the Massive Attack theme from Blade II and, at barely tolerable levels, we were literally slack-jawed. I have never seen the large metal lamellas move on the MBLs before. The air from the ports was ridiculous. All the while, no distortion, clear vocals and no compression.
So, fun! Obviously I am sold and would argue that anyone looking for an amp should audition NCore. I think that both the DIY and OEM are great. Finally, anyone that has not heard Bruno's talk about class D should listen to it. It is very interesting and informative.
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regnad, you're a fool - you should have waited for the mola-mola's to come out, and then buy them. rclarck said he thinks the mola-mola's will be best, so it must be true. what were you thinking?!? :lol:
doug s.
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rclark, you said:
"My own skepticism, otherwise, is valid until proven otherwise by a credible comparison."
for you, yes. others believe there are already credible comparisons out there.
doug s.
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Actually, I think a bit of skepticism concerning sound quality differences (unrelated to the power difference that is) between the nC400 and nC1200 is warranted. Many have suggested that the excellent perfromance of the nCore amplifiers is related to their superior measurements. Well, the nC400 measures better than the nC1200, this is one reason for skepticism. Additionally, Mr. Putzeys himself is on record as suggesting that there is no significant difference in sound quality between the two.
I am reminded of my days at PS Audio, when we made amplifiers using the ICEpower ASP modules (with a proprietary input stage). All the amps had the same input stage design, and the only difference was which ASP module was used. I compared amps with the 500ASP (250/500 Wper channel into 8/4 ohms), vs. the 1000ASP (500/800ish Wper channel into 8/4 ohms) and found the 500ASP based amps to sound better. The 500ASP based amps also measured better, with higher bandwidth and less distortion.
If a bog stock nC1200 does sound better than a bog stock nC400, I would like to know why? Especially considering that the measurements for the nC400 are better...
Are these differences people are hearing just a result of the power difference? Well, we should then consider the speakers in play... Or, are there other differences in the design of the amps which Mr. Putzeys has not revealed? For example, it is my experience that the voltage gain stage has a large influence over the sound of most power amplifiers. The nC400 uses a discrete opamp style circuit, which Mr. Putzeys claims outperforms any IC which he tested. What is the design implementation of the nC1200 input stage? Apparently it is on the underside of the board, as any published pictures I have seen do not show it.
So far, I have not seen any nC1200 based amps where the manufacturer has incorporated their own voltage gain stage. When/if this does happen, I am sure it will result in new "flavors' of nCore sound.
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Actually, I think a bit of skepticism concerning sound quality differences (unrelated to the power difference that is) between the nC400 and nC1200 is warranted. Many have suggested that the excellent perfromance of the nCore amplifiers is related to their superior measurements. Well, the nC400 measures better than the nC1200, this is one reason for skepticism. Additionally, Mr. Putzeys himself is on record as suggesting that there is no significant difference in sound quality between the two.
I have heard the same thing from Hypex- they have not noticed any meaningful difference in the sound between the nc1200 and the nc400. They have been extremely open with their info and I can find no reason to not take them at their word.
It would indeed be interesting to hear more non-biased feedback on the two amps compared head to head.
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Does anyone know why the Atsah uses the Hypex soft-start module? I remember reading that the SMPS700 already had that "built-in".
Do your new VERITAS amps have the soft-start module?
How about a picture of the VERITAS's insides?
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Do your new VERITAS amps have the soft-start module?
How about a picture of the VERITAS's insides?
No and sorry, no.
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I do not think there is any mystery as to what is inside the Veritas' cases. They describe the build in detail at their website, talking about the chassis, the wiring, and the Synergistic fuse. From their description it is quite clear that there is a stock SMPS and nC1200 module internally. Perhaps there is a nice layout, and perhaps separate compartments in the CNCed block for the power supply and amp module, but beyond that, what is there... nothing much, just a quality implementation of an nC1200 build.
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I do not think there is any mystery as to what is inside the Veritas' cases. They describe the build in detail at their website, talking about the chassis, the wiring, and the Synergistic fuse. From their description it is quite clear that there is a stock SMPS and nC1200 module internally. Perhaps there is a nice layout, and perhaps separate compartments in the CNCed block for the power supply and amp module, but beyond that, what is there... nothing much, just a quality implementation of an nC1200 build.
I guess your right, just another nice case with stock modules like the Atsah.
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Yeah, I think it is fair to say that when (if) we see OE nC1200 amplifiers with significant differences, like linear power supplies, and/or the manufacturers' own voltage gain stage, we are also going to be seeing much higher prices. It is pretty clear that the OE price for the nC1200 modules is pretty steep. I think the question most OE manufacturers are asking themselves if considering nC1200 builds with their own power supplies or input stages is: am I going to be able to build something good enough thta my customers are going to be willing to spend $15K to $20K for it.
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"The first press release had Merrill Audio's Ncore Veritas at $6.400/pr. Soon after pricing changed to match the Atsah whilst the Veritas monos gained a downfiring blue LED. Opportunism or consensus?"
I'm surprised nobody noticed this from the review? It makes me believe the pricing of the 1200 units is also rather fluid, depending on buildout by the OEM. Anyway, perhaps Merrill Audio made some upgrades before launch that merited a pricing adjustment?
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Well, we can only speculate on Hypex's pricing structure. But I would hope, for the sake of competing OEM customers, that it is not fluid...
To anyone who has worked in product development, a change in price from the initial pre production estimate, should not be surprising. It is easy to be overly optimistic on final price before one has actually put a product into production. I suspect that Merrill is just charging what they need to try and stay in business. Billet machined chassis are very expensive to produce, there is just no way to get that done cheaply. Of course, they ought to be able to do the same design as dual mono for around $3K less... That might be a really good deal for those who are not hot for mono blocks.
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"The first press release had Merrill Audio's Ncore Veritas at $6.400/pr. Soon after pricing changed to match the Atsah whilst the Veritas monos gained a downfiring blue LED. Opportunism or consensus?"
That design change happened months ago. It was my idea, to clean up the look of the face-plate of the amplifier, which I did the graphics for. So now the stand-by button and its LED are on the bottom front of the amp instead of the face of it.
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Barry,
The new look is very nice, as is the LED on the bottom. Very clever and attractive. Well worth the $4k price increase.
Cheers
Jack
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Barry,
The new look is very nice, as is the LED on the bottom. Very clever and attractive. Well worth the $4k price increase.
Cheers
Jack
LOL! Well I'm pretty sure that one had nothing to do with the other. I think, really don't know for sure, that the price of all the components ended up being more than initially expected by quite a bit.
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... Well then this leads one to believe there is a niche for no-frills NC1200 amps. Somebody outta get on that. Simple case, good connectors, pow, amp.
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Brian Weitzel and his brother Paul own TRL, Tube Research Labs. A TRL-modded Sony is my sole digital source for about ten years now. Brian told me Paul is building an NC1200. I'd love to hear it.
It seems silly to argue about the relative merits or value of NC1200 (any stripe, any version) vs. NC400. Every single person considering NC1200 will hear it in their own system. So who cares what anyone else says about comparing the two?
Anyone hear Theta's NC1200-based amp yet?
Readers are extremely lucky to read contributions from an MBL Radialstrahler owner, especially relative to Ncore applications. Anyone who's heard MBL knows there's nothing like else like it. It's interesting to read his note that they really sound much better loud, and this may explain the high levels at shows. Looking at show-goers in the MBL rooms, I see a hypnotic expression appearing in no other room, ever.
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Anyone hear Theta's NC1200-based amp yet?
Apparently they have shelved their plans to use the nc1200.
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Any idea why Theta abandoned the N-Core?
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My guess would be Mola Mola is too much competition right out the gate.