AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Open Baffle Speakers => Topic started by: jonbuilds on 1 Sep 2019, 11:50 pm
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Earlier this year, with personal input and OB-A15Neo 15" drivers from Pure Audio Project (thank you, Ze'ev!), terminals and TB1808 from Parts Express, and about 10 Home Depot runs, I finished building a slight variant of the PAP Trio15TB speakers. This version matches most of the original performance intent: Open baffles using the OB-A15Neo 15" woofers and Tang Band 1808 full range drivers, with baffle face dimensions and driver spacing based on the PAP layout. If you ever get a chance to hear the Pure Audio Project versions (or mine, I suppose) please do so! PAP got their driver selection right.
With almost every other parameter, there are slight variations - some budget driven, others based on aspirations for improved performance. In the end, I have a pair of actively crossed speakers (no savings there, let me tell you) that regularly amaze me, for a total $$ investment of about $1,700 plus active crossover and another amp. If I considered my time valuable, these speakers probably cost me the same as, or more than, a new set from PAP... :roll:
I will add to this as my first ever build thread, as I sort through the pics I took during the process. I was not terribly disciplined about documenting it, but will gladly answer any questions based on what I did/learned.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198121)
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Beautiful speakers you've got there. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
I'm curious about details on your crossover. Cheers.
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really cool! nice work. thanks for the share.
:D
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Beautiful speakers you've got there. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
I'm curious about details on your crossover. Cheers.
Thanks. I made an early decision run these actively crossed, since I'm a long-time poly-amp kinda listener. While I was building and finishing, I hadn't made a decision on how I would do that, so for the short term I pulled an old AudioControl 24XS out of a 90s-era box in the garage, bought a battery, and hooked it up (you can see some of that going in the pic). Sounded pretty dang good. Those AudioControl pieces were always great, and reliable. Current crossover is K231 by Sublime Acoustic, which has proven to be quite good, even better in light of its price point.
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How do they sound?
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Initial practice with a router to make speaker holes in the baffles. Borrowed tools, it's been a long time since I did any woodworking so I was moving slowly. Material is red oak plywood from Home Depot. Not great in terms of voids or finish ply thickness, but its what I could afford and I like the way it looks.
First routing test:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198187)
Have to see if it fits! With the TB1808
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198188)
First full baffle view with my super custom router jig:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198189)
Here's a closer look at that incredibly cost-efficient router circle cutting setup:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198368)
First pair of baffle pieces standing together, not yet laminated:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198190)
Raw baffle pieces side by side:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198191)
All the baffle pieces are cut, standing together.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198192)
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Why toe-in and close to walls?
Do you tested soundstage with no toe-in?
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How do they sound?
Man, that's a loaded question in this room - I don't have broad experience in a variety of home equipment compared to most folks in here. That said, to me they sound big & open, wonderfully dynamic especially with a lot of the jazz and fusion I listen to. Tight, clear, alive. Main thing I notice whenever I hear other equipment is that I really prefer open baffle (or planar, or electrostatic, etc) over box speakers. The "beaming" quality of most box designs distracts me since they tend to sound so much better in the optimum listening position, particularly those within $50k of my price range... :icon_lol:
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Why toe-in and close to walls?
Do you tested soundstage with no toe-in?
Oh yes. That's an old pic, set up mostly to get a good view of both speakers at that time. My current alignment has them about 4' off the back wall facing a completely different direction than the one shown, with a slight toe-in. That's as far out as I can get them and still use the space effectively for the rest of life. Frankly, I'd like a bigger room! My poor living room has undergone multiple layout transformations over many months to test various positions, alignments. That's part of what we do, right? :popcorn:
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Thanks Jon :thumb: Congratulations its a beautiful speakers.
What plywood you consider best for baffles?
There is a level grade?
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Man, that's a loaded question in this room - I don't have broad experience in a variety of home equipment compared to most folks in here. That said, to me they sound big & open, wonderfully dynamic especially with a lot of the jazz and fusion I listen to. Tight, clear, alive. Main thing I notice whenever I hear other equipment is that I really prefer open baffle (or planar, or electrostatic, etc) over box speakers. The "beaming" quality of most box designs distracts me since they tend to sound so much better in the optimum listening position, particularly those within $50k of my price range... :icon_lol:
I went to an OB speaker setup about 8 years ago, after having box speakers for the first 15 years of my audio hobby. I've never looked back. Well done OB speakers just do things that box speakers can't. Congrats on a great looking build. Seems like it sounds as good as it looks :thumb:
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What plywood you consider best for baffles?
There is a level grade?
There are definitely a wide variety of plywood types and quality. I'd recommend asking a more accomplished speaker builder than I am about which is "best," but I personally considered density, strength/hardness, appearance, and cost when I chose this sheet of plywood. Given some pricier alternatives, I would have preferred more plys and fewer voids, and more consistency at each ply. PAP uses ply-boo among others, which is very nice looking and made from a rapidly renewable resource. I could very well have used some type of fiberboard in 1-1/2" stock, and done some kind of paint job, but finishing was already going to be a laborious process since I was working entirely by brush and hand, and paint is touchy. Having the wood grain be the finish feature was important for this build, instead of me looking at "mostly perfect" paint in my living room, since there is no chance I would get it perfect first try!
Here's an edge shot of a baffle with both sheets of 3/4" red oak plywood laminated together, and edge filling/sanding underway. You can see the variations in the interior ply grains. This was a tedious process, but I really like how it came out after finishing:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198232)
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That is a nice job Jon, I appreciated your valuable insight :thumb:
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I spent the most time figuring out how to finish the baffles, probably over 50% of the work building these was on finishing. They're still not perfect, but I learned a lot and if I ever get bored (ha!) I will work on the finish some more, adding layers of clear, then sanding and polishing.
3/4" baffle front/back pieces laminated together:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198274)
Test stains, and test clear. I ended up using only clear finish.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198271)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198272)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198273)
Baffle filling and sanding well underway:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198275)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198276)
First coat clear:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198277)
Three coats clear:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198278)
three coats, 45 degree edge routing detail showing need for sanding. That was an adventure getting it right:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198279)
sanded that router detail, looking better:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198280)
Learning to sand and polish the clear:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198281)
Three coats of sanding & polishing:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198282)
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Great photos Jon, thanks for posting :thumb:
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Nice build....congrats!
I also went the DIY route with the Trio TB.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198283)
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Jon if you could manage to test an upright or vertical baffle position, it certainly can increase the soundstage, you can see this position below>
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182037)
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Nice build....congrats!
I also went the DIY route with the Trio TB.
I'm using that same Tang-Band driver in OB. Love it, driven by a Korneff 45 SET.
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I'm curious how the 1808 compares with the 1772
https://www.parts-express.com/tang-band-w8-1772-8-neodymium-full-range-driver--264-893
On the surface they look similar, but the 1808 has more excursion and is 1 dB less sensitive.
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Jon if you could manage to test an upright or vertical baffle position, it certainly can increase the soundstage, you can see this position below>
Thank you for the suggestion - I have twiddled endlessly (and still am) with most every placement and orientation parameter imaginable over the past months. As you'll see when I get around to posting the hardware install that supports the baffles, the approach angle facing the room is quite adjustable. I'll measure their current angle of attack post with the final pic. They are still angled up slightly, which works best in my current layout. This is also consistent with Pure Audio Project's base design, which is typically slightly angled as well. I really should note - Ze'ev and his team at PAP really seem to have thought through their approach; that guy is extremely thoughtful, and based on my conversations with him, has well trained ears and a terrific ability to explain what he's hearing! :thumb:
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I'm curious how the 1808 compares with the 1772
https://www.parts-express.com/tang-band-w8-1772-8-neodymium-full-range-driver--264-893
On the surface they look similar, but the 1808 has more excursion and is 1 dB less sensitive.
I'm a little out of my pay grade here, but I assume that the higher Qts of the 1808 is more desirable for OB application, among other less objective (i.e. listening) criteria. Personally, I relied on the heavy lifting that PAP did in designing the speaker. I'm guessing they considered most every imaginable driver in the price range of the 1808, and they don't see any income from the purchase of that particular part. Even now I believe the PAP website offers the Trio15TB without the "TB" part, and Ze'ev directed me to Parts Express for the 1808 purchase when I got my Neo15" drivers from PAP. I wouldn't even consider substituting drivers on the build - these things sound great, and PAP did all the testing!!
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Hardware fit up. After wrangling a number of ideas, I decided to use off-the-shelf Unistrut and Home Depot equivalent Superstrut hardware. The support frame needed to be rigid, adjustable, and not require any complex fabrication since I don't have a welder, vice, press, break, or even mildly precise cutting tools. I had a sawzall, a drill, some wrenches and other simple hand tools, a dremel, and some time...
V-drill guide & drill stop from Rockler:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198334)
Budget edge cleanup with a larger bit
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198335)
Driving the machine thread inserts
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198336)
Completed machine thread steel insert
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198337)
Rubber baby buggy bumpers. I mean rubber fender washers to prevent passive mechanical buzzzies between baffle and strut
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198338)
First strut dry fit
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198339)
First strut anchored
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198340)
Layout holes for next set of inserts
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198341)
two struts in!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198342)
First leg. Used a flat splice and bent to approximate angle needed. Had to think REALLY HARD about the order of operations to bolt it together....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198343)
First leg, different angle.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198344)
Two legs, about ready to stand up
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198345)
Looks like a thing!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198346)
Definitely a thing!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198347)
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This is great.
Good to see a build so well documented.
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Speaker fit-up.
Baffle with legs only next to Tekton OB Sigma
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198369)
Closeup of finished corner. I think I stopped sanding and finishing at this point.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198370)
Speaker dry fit during baffle prep
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198371)
Speakers in finished baffle for the first time
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198372)
Loaded baffle standing on its own two legs, next to Tekton OB Sigma
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198373)
Desperate to hear it, throwing some cabling together. You know how it is...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=198374)
Coming up soon, I decide I really need a base under these.... :popcorn:
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Beautiful job Jon, thanks for sharing.
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It was serial connected, do you can post the woofer/mid/xover schema?
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Earlier this year, with personal input and OB-A15Neo 15" drivers from Pure Audio Project (thank you, Ze'ev!), terminals and TB1808 from Parts Express, and about 10 Home Depot runs, I finished building a slight variant of the PAP Trio15TB speakers.
I will add to this as my first ever build thread, as I sort through the pics I took during the process. I was not terribly disciplined about documenting it, but will gladly answer any questions based on what I did/learned.
Base under construction
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199522)
More base
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199523)
Edgy base
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199525)
Baffle on base
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199526)
Can you feel the base
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199527)
Back base
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199528)
First full operation with the bases installed. Terminals, base finishing remain.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=199529)
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It was serial connected, do you can post the woofer/mid/xover schema?
I promise I'll sketch a schematic at some point, but here's a narrative version: No passive crossovers. Each speaker has two 8 Ohm 15" drivers wired in parallel to one amplifier channel; one 8" driver wired to a separate amp channel on a separate amp. In addition I have separate subs that I use in conjunction with the PAP design Trio 15TB speakers.
Signal from the source is controlled via a passive preamp, which passes signal to an active 3-way crossover, which provides stereo output to low-pass <40Hz amps on subs; mid-pass 40 - 450Hz amp to 15" parallel drivers each channel; high-pass >450Hz amp to 8" drivers, this amp is a Nelson-Pass ACA 1.6 that I build earlier this year. (Separate thread at some point...)
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I promise I'll sketch a schematic at some point, but here's a narrative version: No passive crossovers. Each speaker has two 8 Ohm 15" drivers wired in parallel to one amplifier channel; one 8" driver wired to a separate amp channel on a separate amp. In addition I have separate subs that I use in conjunction with the PAP design Trio 15TB speakers.
Signal from the source is controlled via a passive preamp, which passes signal to an active 3-way crossover, which provides stereo output to low-pass <40Hz amps on subs; mid-pass 40 - 450Hz amp to 15" parallel drivers each channel; high-pass >450Hz amp to 8" drivers, this amp is a Nelson-Pass ACA 1.6 that I build earlier this year. (Separate thread at some point...)
Nice, thanks for inform :thumb:
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Nice job. I am working on an open baffle style project right now using Zenith Alnico drivers at the moment. I am considering going active as well once if I decide I need helper woofers below 30hz or not. I was looking at the Sublime Active Crossover - what do you think of it? And how did you determine your crossover points?
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I'm also very curious how your DIY speakers compare sonically to the Tektons. Thoughts?
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Nice job. I am working on an open baffle style project right now using Zenith Alnico drivers at the moment. I am considering going active as well once if I decide I need helper woofers below 30hz or not. I was looking at the Sublime Active Crossover - what do you think of it? And how did you determine your crossover points?
I liked the Sublime crossover and actually wrote a "consumer review" for it, it's on their webpage, titled "SERIOUS-MINDED BUILD, FUNCTION, AND SOUND" https://sublimeacoustic.com/products/k231-stereo-3-way-active-crossover
Crossover points were based on input from Ze'ev at PAP. Good luck with your build!
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I'm also very curious how your DIY speakers compare sonically to the Tektons. Thoughts?
I've had a couple of different Tekton Design speakers, but assuming you're referring to the OB Sigmas - I like the Sigmas. They opened my eyes to the possibilities of OB designs. The PAP design, in my opinion, sounds fuller, richer, more dynamic (faster?), a little less "squawky" but please understand this perception is based on a lot of side-by-side comparison. The Tekton OB is a an excellent sounding speaker. Also note I do not know how the PAPs sound with the passive crossover options they offer. Frankly, I'd like to try them, but I have to choose my equipment purchases carefully, I can only really afford about one per year, and right now I'm angling toward upgrading the Tang Band drivers to Voxativs - a pricey upgrade... :o
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Frankly, I'd like to try them, but I have to choose my equipment purchases carefully, I can only really afford about one per year, and right now I'm angling toward upgrading the Tang Band drivers to Voxativs - a pricey upgrade... :o
Have you included the Cube audio drivers in your comparison? I saw a comparison with, amongst others, the Voxativs in a Pure Audio project-type open baffle arrangement and the Cube came out on top. I can't find that comparison (it was in Russian, by the way), but here is another comparison with a Voxative.
http://hifiknights.com/reviews/speakers/cube-audio-magus/
The Cubes aren't cheap, but they are cheaper than Voxativ, I believe.
https://www.cubeaudio.eu/
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Have you included the Cube audio drivers in your comparison?
https://www.cubeaudio.eu/
Good tip, I hadn't considered the Cube Audio product. I poked around a bit and am still inclined toward the Voxativs, but whatever I do will have to wait until something comes up on the 2nd-hand market in this regard. I just can't justify the upgrade cost at new retail pricing! Also, I'm starting to feel the itch to build a couple of Mr. Linkwitz's designs, starting with the LX Mini. That may take precedent over the holiday break that I am definitely taking... :D
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I also wonder how the Lii Crystal 10s
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=165135.0
would fare in the company of the likes of Cube, Voxative and Tang Bands.
Too bad there isn't a neighbourhood Wide Band Drivers 'R' Us store in bricks and mortar to hang out in to listen and compare, but I guess that would be in an alternate universe!
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Great build. If it was me I would get rid of the gap below the baffle. In reality the floor extends the baffle for the bass frequencies. The gap is a window that allows some bass to short circuit the baffle, causing cancellations.
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Great build. If it was me I would get rid of the gap below the baffle. In reality the floor extends the baffle for the bass frequencies. The gap is a window that allows some bass to short circuit the baffle, causing cancellations.
Correct.
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The shelving standards that you are using as rear legs may have a tendency to resonate at certain frequencies. If this occurs you can try to fabricate a brace about one third of the way up (or down) so you have more then just the two end points of attachment. Nice job btw.
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What a great project, how do you like that coax driver? I know some love it and some feel it does not have a very smooth frequency response.
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how would they compare to hawthorne audio? the entry level 15 inch model?
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how would they compare to hawthorne audio? the entry level 15 inch model?
No. The Eminence 15'' Neodymium that PAP use are a better driver and not expensive, the TS parameters are different also.
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No. The Eminence 15'' Neodymium that PAP use are a better driver and not expensive, the TS parameters are different also.
Can you supply us with the model name you mention here about the Eminence 15" driver? Thanks.
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Eminence A15 Neo.....
<--------- If anyone is interested I have a full set of 4 of these.....and 2 TB 1808....and a complete x-over
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Can you supply us with the model name you mention here about the Eminence 15" driver? Thanks.
It is a custom made to order, when PAP released the site they mentioned the PAP 15 Neo used the Alpha 15A cone/suspension(which is very light) with an Neo motor, propably the Deltalite 2515II motor.
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It is a custom made to order, when PAP released the site they mentioned the PAP 15 Neo used the Alpha 15A cone/suspension(which is very light) with an Neo motor, propably the Deltalite 2515II motor.
IS this same one that PAPsells or different one and who sells them? a little confused.
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Eminence A15 Neo.....
<--------- If anyone is interested I have a full set of 4 of these.....and 2 TB 1808....and a complete x-over
Is your Eminence A15 Neo the same as those from PAP or the customized version? how much, please?
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They are from PAP......bought from Grant Fidelity out of Calgary.
PM me an offer......they would ship from Edmonton Alberta.
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IS this same one that PAPsells or different one and who sells them? a little confused.
PAP still sells the raw 15'' driver, now it was modified with a new dome and price no more $399 pair.
http://www.pureaudioproject.com/product/15inch-open-baffle-bass-woofers/
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PDR and FullrangeMan,
Thanks, Gents.
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The shelving standards that you are using as rear legs may have a tendency to resonate at certain frequencies. If this occurs you can try to fabricate a brace about one third of the way up (or down) so you have more then just the two end points of attachment. Nice job btw.
Thanks for the feedback. I was interested in passive resonance of the steel elements (as I was regarding the baffles) , however in testing I did not discover any meaningful resonance points from the speaker's structure. I experimented using a couple of different waves, sweeping through the entire frequency range, with sound isolation baffles around the speakers to mitigate room response. Applied a variety of temporary damping solutions to the strut assemblies as well, to change their resonant frequencies, just to be certain I wasn't missing something. Cheers!
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What a great project, how do you like that coax driver? I know some love it and some feel it does not have a very smooth frequency response.
The TB drivers are quite good, especially considering their price point. I'd say that for jazz, in particular horns, they are glorious. I power them using a 8w/ch Class A amp, never wanted more/better.
The Voxativ drivers, I am told, offer better resolution, but at 4x the price! Love to have them but, man, these speakers sound great, I never grow tired of listening to them.
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The TB drivers are quite good, especially considering their price point. I'd say that for jazz, in particular horns, they are glorious. I power them using a 8w/ch Class A amp, never wanted more/better.
The Voxativ drivers, I am told, offer better resolution, but at 4x the price! Love to have them but, man, these speakers sound great, I never grow tired of listening to them.
My personal taste bends to the Visaton B200 instead the TB, whenever possible I avoid whizzer cones, maybe the new Lii drivers can surpass TB and B200.
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yes better avoid whizzer but the b200 is too big and beam a lot....
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Dave have the wood phase plugs to B200 $50 finished.
https://www.planet10-hifi.com/pp-info.html