Bryston Headphone Interface

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James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #440 on: 7 Dec 2011, 09:15 pm »
James: Can you answer SoundGame's question that is in bold typeface?

Dave

Only if the headphones you are using are causing problems for the output capabilities of the specific preamp or processor you have them plugged into. The headphone output in the BP-26 for instance is happy with impedances above 50 and closer to 100 really whereas the BHA-1 will be very happy at 16 ohms.

james

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #441 on: 7 Dec 2011, 09:23 pm »

Interesting James - so why then go to all the effort in designing something all new.  There is a whole slew of headphone amps out there at different levels of performance for young listeners.  Why not just use the existing integrated headphone amp and outboard it as is in a separate box with separate power supply?  It seems to me that as you got into the initiative the objective evolved and became not only a product for the young listeners but also to create the best headphone amp you could build - above and beyond the current integrated designs.

Hi,

Yes in fact once I started down the road and looking at what headphone amps and types of headphones where out there I was totally blown away :duh: 

There was this whole subculture of headphone listening enthusiast's and Tube driven headphone amps (very few solid-state) etc. I realized that my original idea of a simple high quality headphone interface was very very naive to say the least (I was never a real serious headphone listener). So more research and more questions and I realized that if I was going to go down this path there was an opportunity to not only affect the younger crowd (hopefully) but supply this underground unknown to me community of serious headphone listeners with a product that could compete with the best out there. Time will tell I guess if I accomplish my goals.

james

DaveNote

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #442 on: 7 Dec 2011, 09:27 pm »
Only if the headphones you are using are causing problems for the output capabilities of the specific preamp or processor you have them plugged into. The headphone output in the BP-26 for instance is happy with impedances above 50 and closer to 100 really whereas the BHA-1 will be very happy at 16 ohms.

james

James, with respect, your answer does not answer SoundGames' very specific question, which was, Does the BHA-1 sound different, specifically in term of warmth/body and perhaps liquidity/smoothness, than the integrated headphone amps supplied standard in Bryston preamp/processors?

Dave

SoundGame

Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #443 on: 7 Dec 2011, 09:28 pm »
Hi,

Yes in fact once I started down the road and looking at what headphone amps and types of headphones where out there I was totally blown away :duh: 

There was this whole subculture of headphone listening enthusiast's and Tube driven headphone amps (very few solid-state) etc. I realized that my original idea of a simple high quality headphone interface was very very naive to say the least (I was never a real serious headphone listener). So more research and more questions and I realized that if I was going to go down this path there was an opportunity to not only affect the younger crowd (hopefully) but supply this underground unknown to me community of serious headphone listeners with a product that could compete with the best out there. Time will tell I guess if I accomplish my goals.

james

That makes sense to me... ;)
 
Time will tell but as I mentioned before - it will be interesting to see if the lessons learned in the engineering of the BHA-1 might trickle its way down in some respects into integrated headphone amps in Bryston products, as they come up for redesign.
 
Oh, bye-the-way James - does the SP3 have the same integrated headphone design as the other Bryston products or is it an evolution / new-breed??

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #444 on: 7 Dec 2011, 09:29 pm »
James, with respect, your answer does not answer SoundGames' very specific question, which was, Does the BHA-1 sound different, specifically in term of warmth/body and perhaps liquidity/smoothness, than the integrated headphone amps supplied standard in Bryston preamp/processors?

Dave

Hi Dave - I can not answer that unless we decide what headphones - with a benign load they will all sound the same - with a more difficult load the BHA-1 will sound better.

james

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #445 on: 7 Dec 2011, 09:47 pm »
Hi,

Yes in fact once I started down the road and looking at what headphone amps and types of headphones where out there I was totally blown away :duh: 

There was this whole subculture of headphone listening enthusiast's and Tube driven headphone amps (very few solid-state) etc. I realized that my original idea of a simple high quality headphone interface was very very naive to say the least (I was never a real serious headphone listener). So more research and more questions and I realized that if I was going to go down this path there was an opportunity to not only affect the younger crowd (hopefully) but supply this underground unknown to me community of serious headphone listeners with a product that could compete with the best out there. Time will tell I guess if I accomplish my goals.

james

This a more plausible explanation. I was a little puzzled.  If such a younger crowd isn't already into high quality audio, how would a $1300 headphone amp draw them into it? Typically, If you read the headphone forums, they seem first to buy better headphones, usually to listen to compressed music. if they move to headphone amps, they have a raft of amps to choose from already, many of them excellent and highly rated and often less expensive.

The headphone "community" is as avid and discriminating as any other audio group. To break into the good graces of it, and to compete with the best of the amps, the BHA-1 is going to have to be damned good. There seems to be a preference for tube amps, even at astronomical prices.

And I think I've learned why. I've always been a solid state guy, preferring accuracy above so-called warmth. But spending more time with headphones in recent months, I found that headphone listening is a more intimate kind of listening, and a warmer sound from the cans and the amps makes the experience even better. The only solid state amp out there that I have read about that gets any marks for warmth is the Australian built Burson HP160. I prefer SS because I am not charmed by rolling tubes or the prospect of buying them, but I wamt my headphone amp to sound more like a tube than a solid state amp. I believe the headphone market won't be wild about the BHA-1 unless it does.

This is why I've pressed you for a direct answer to SoundGame's question.

Dave


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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #446 on: 7 Dec 2011, 09:55 pm »
Hi Dave - I can not answer that unless we decide what headphones - with a benign load they will all sound the same - with a more difficult load the BHA-1 will sound better.

james
James, I doubt that the headphone choice is the only thing to consider, and maybe the question should have had this caveat.

Use any good headphone on the SP3 or BP26. Then try it on a good tube amp. This should set the baseline of what SoundGame's question was getting at. Then try the same headphones on the BHA-1. Then tell us if the headphones sound closer to the SP3/BP26, or the tube amp. If you can do that, then you might be getting closer to what we're looking for.

Dave

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #447 on: 7 Dec 2011, 10:45 pm »
James, I doubt that the headphone choice is the only thing to consider, and maybe the question should have had this caveat.

Use any good headphone on the SP3 or BP26. Then try it on a good tube amp. This should set the baseline of what SoundGame's question was getting at. Then try the same headphones on the BHA-1. Then tell us if the headphones sound closer to the SP3/BP26, or the tube amp. If you can do that, then you might be getting closer to what we're looking for.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Well I would not agree that a tube amp is more accurate and should be the reference point. Also I have been told by people in the know that there are no standards for headphone testing as there are with speakers :duh:.

james

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #448 on: 7 Dec 2011, 11:18 pm »
Hi Dave,

Well I would not agree that a tube amp is more accurate and should be the reference point. Also I have been told by people in the know that there are no standards for headphone testing as there are with speakers :duh:.

james


Thanks for your entirely confusing reply, James. You say you "would not agree that a tube amp is more accurate." You are replying to me, so I assume you think I have made the claim that a tube amp is more accurate than a SS one. I haven't. Show me where I have said such a thing. I haven't because I don't believe they are.

In terms of reference, however, tube amps, as known by people in the know, are warmer sounding than SS ones. And my question and suggestion was about seeing how warm sounding - not accurate - the BHA-1 is compared to a tube amp.

But it seems that getting my point across, or getting you to understand it, is simply impossible.  :duh:

I give up.

Dave

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #449 on: 7 Dec 2011, 11:31 pm »
Thanks for your entirely confusing reply, James. You say you "would not agree that a tube amp is more accurate." You are replying to me, so I assume you think I have made the claim that a tube amp is more accurate than a SS one. I haven't. Show me where I have said such a thing. I haven't because I don't believe they are.

In terms of reference, however, tube amps, as known by people in the know, are warmer sounding than SS ones. And my question and suggestion was about seeing how warm sounding - not accurate - the BHA-1 is compared to a tube amp.

But it seems that getting my point across, or getting you to understand it, is simply impossible.  :duh:

I give up.

Dave

Me too.

james

Fsonicsmith

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #450 on: 8 Dec 2011, 02:12 am »
As Gil Scott Heron said, "I'm new here". But I am not new to audio boards. I can't fathom why one guy is getting away with giving a respected guy from the industry so much crap. Mr. Tanner has been nothing other than diplomatic. A well designed amp does not have a sound. There are other important sound qualities and they go far beyond warm vs. sterile and include such things as....(well, we have all heard the audio gobbledy goop-microdynamics, resolution, cohesiveness, yada yada yada). How can you expect Mr. Tanner to describe his amp as warm vs. cold vs. something in between? Either buy one and try it or wait and see what others have to say. Just be aware that what others have to say is usually worth nothing since they are likely using different sources, cables, and phones. BTW, my tubed pre-amp, an Audioprism Mantissa, is NOT warm. My tubed amp, an ARC VS-110 is also, NOT warm, unless you touch it's output transformer.

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #451 on: 8 Dec 2011, 03:10 am »
I'm new to this Boad and I am sorry to make my very first post one in which I disagree with a regular. But, I don't agree. Not every potential customer is "one of it's loyal customers" as you apparently see yourself. Take me. I don't presently have any Bryston gear, but I do have dedicated two channel system that I am quite happy with. Thanks to purchasing a pair of Audeze LCD-2s, I am in the market for a top tier dedicated headphone amp that will drive the Audeze's to their full potential. My pre-amp is an Audioprism Mantissa that has been modified/upgraded by the original designer. It does not possess a headphone out. I love it and see absolutely no need to replace my pre-amp with one that has a headphone output like the Brystons. For me, the Bryston BHA-1 looks like a great candidate for these particular headphones.

Fsonicsmith, no need to be sorry. If being on a forum is only about being fans or yes-people, that would be pretty dull. I see that you are a perfect candidate for being a new customer for the BHA-1, but being a lover of the LCD-2, as I am, I suspect that unless it adds to their warm and musical sound - its great attractions - you'll be looking elsewhere. I would urge you, as James Tanner would, to demo the BHA-1 before buying it.

There is a reason that people who are into buying high end headphone amps usually prefer tubes, as I have suggested in this thread. At the BHA-1's $1300 price point, tube amps may be the competition. James has written that his goal is to compete with the best, as it should be. Therefore, there is no doubt that tube headphone amps be the competiton.

Dave

BrysTony

Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #452 on: 8 Dec 2011, 04:55 am »
As Gil Scott Heron said, "I'm new here". But I am not new to audio boards. I can't fathom why one guy is getting away with giving a respected guy from the industry so much crap. Mr. Tanner has been nothing other than diplomatic. A well designed amp does not have a sound. There are other important sound qualities and they go far beyond warm vs. sterile and include such things as....(well, we have all heard the audio gobbledy goop-microdynamics, resolution, cohesiveness, yada yada yada). How can you expect Mr. Tanner to describe his amp as warm vs. cold vs. something in between? Either buy one and try it or wait and see what others have to say. Just be aware that what others have to say is usually worth nothing since they are likely using different sources, cables, and phones. BTW, my tubed pre-amp, an Audioprism Mantissa, is NOT warm. My tubed amp, an ARC VS-110 is also, NOT warm, unless you touch it's output transformer.

+1

Fsonicsmith, no need to be sorry. If being on a forum is only about being fans or yes-people, that would be pretty dull. I see that you are a perfect candidate for being a new customer for the BHA-1, but being a lover of the LCD-2, as I am, I suspect that unless it adds to their warm and musical sound - its great attractions - you'll be looking elsewhere. I would urge you, as James Tanner would, to demo the BHA-1 before buying it.

There is a reason that people who are into buying high end headphone amps usually prefer tubes, as I have suggested in this thread. At the BHA-1's $1300 price point, tube amps may be the competition. James has written that his goal is to compete with the best, as it should be. Therefore, there is no doubt that tube headphone amps be the competiton.

Dave


 :scratch:

Tony

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #453 on: 8 Dec 2011, 12:31 pm »
Hi Folks,

Yes I guess that is really what I am trying to say - hopefully the BHA-1 will allow the source to be heard as accurately as possible so the quality of the headphones will determine the final result.

As for seducing the younger crowd I think we will introduce a headphone as well - what do you think of these :thumb:





 

DaveNote

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #454 on: 8 Dec 2011, 01:44 pm »
As Gil Scott Heron said, "I'm new here". But I am not new to audio boards. I can't fathom why one guy is getting away with giving a respected guy from the industry so much crap. Mr. Tanner has been nothing other than diplomatic. A well designed amp does not have a sound. There are other important sound qualities and they go far beyond warm vs. sterile and include such things as....(well, we have all heard the audio gobbledy goop-microdynamics, resolution, cohesiveness, yada yada yada). How can you expect Mr. Tanner to describe his amp as warm vs. cold vs. something in between? Either buy one and try it or wait and see what others have to say. Just be aware that what others have to say is usually worth nothing since they are likely using different sources, cables, and phones. BTW, my tubed pre-amp, an Audioprism Mantissa, is NOT warm. My tubed amp, an ARC VS-110 is also, NOT warm, unless you touch it's output transformer.

Fsonicsmith, as a "new guy" here maybe you are not aware that we all respect James Tanner on this circle. But we respect him enough not to treat him like he is made of glass or to the point that we think he is always right. Do some research on this circle and you'll find many a time he has been challenged or questioned. This is an outstanding forum largely because of James, and especially because by his own behavior, he has not let it degrade into becoming one of the many mindless cheering sections that you find elsewhere. Because he and I had a few exchanges on a single issue does not mean I respect him less, nor did I notice that he is offended.

As to the characterization of the sound of amps - warm, smooth, etc. - I agree that these are very subjective terms. On the other hand, you probably are aware that these are terms regularly used not only by ordinary consumers, but also by respected reviewers.

I once spoke to another highly respected Bryston person, Chris Russell, the company's CEO, about these terms. He did not deny at all that these were perceived characteristics, but not surprisingly, as the company's former chief engineer, says that such sound is, in fact, a form of distortion. Bryston, he says, goes for the lowest possible distortion as an engineering goal. But engineering he has explained to me is a question of making choices and balancing those choices.

So engineering audio products in making choices seems to be something of an art as well as a science. I'm a terribly happy Bryston owner for my main system - all the electronics and even some cables are pure Bryston art.

But not all art is or needs to be one thing. Many respected art lovers prefer impressionists, Picasso, or Jackson Pollock. All of them engaged in representing what they saw through one form of distortion or another. I have found that the admitted distortion of the tubes in my Lyr amp - its warmth - is highly attractive to my ear. It is not a criticism of anything Bryston, it is a personal preference. Indeed, my preference would be Bryston because I have found that its squared amps do for my main system what the Lyr has done for my headphones. That's the only reason I have been pressing James on this thread. I would prefer SS. I would prefer Bryston if the BHA-1 gives me this kind of sound.

For sure, I will follow your good advice to try the BHA-1. In this interesting discussion, and despite our various differences in terms of lexicon, I think I now can anticipate what I am likely hear - something fairly close to the headphone jack on my BP26. Because Bryston invariably has surprised me, I wouldn't be surprised now that the difference might prompt me to buy it.

Dave

Fsonicsmith

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #455 on: 8 Dec 2011, 04:43 pm »
Thanks for you kind reply Dave. I am sorry for the comment about "getting away with....".
I share many of your concerns. I came over here to this Board because I find that though Head-Fi may be the most active, there is an awful lot of mindless cheerleading and lemming-marching going on over there. Headphones are kind of peculiar in this sense; many headphone enthusiasts are not necessarily into high end audio. "High end audio" is of course a subjective term, but I think you likely know what I mean-many of these folks do not have components at the Bryston level of quality. They often will spend $1,000 or more on a set of cans and yet they are using iPods or laptops as their sources with $200 DACs and $200 headamps. But separate and aside from the denizens and character of various Boards, the universal truth is that you can't pick out equipment based on what you read on the 'net. You perhaps can make an educated guess based on wide acclaim and such, but that is about it. I am in the same boat as you are in a sense. No one has yet had a chance to hear the BHA-1 with various headphones since it has not yet been released. I am torn in that the Violectric V200 has wide acclaim (and again, I have not yet heard one of those) and I also would love to find a Leben CS300SX used. The Leben is an integrated amp, but it is one of the very few I would consider as an option to a dedicated head amp which is admittedly contradictory to something I posted at the outset of this thread.

DaveNote

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #456 on: 8 Dec 2011, 06:01 pm »
Thanks for you kind reply Dave. I am sorry for the comment about "getting away with....".
I share many of your concerns. I came over here to this Board because I find that though Head-Fi may be the most active, there is an awful lot of mindless cheerleading and lemming-marching going on over there. Headphones are kind of peculiar in this sense; many headphone enthusiasts are not necessarily into high end audio. "High end audio" is of course a subjective term, but I think you likely know what I mean-many of these folks do not have components at the Bryston level of quality. They often will spend $1,000 or more on a set of cans and yet they are using iPods or laptops as their sources with $200 DACs and $200 headamps. But separate and aside from the denizens and character of various Boards, the universal truth is that you can't pick out equipment based on what you read on the 'net. You perhaps can make an educated guess based on wide acclaim and such, but that is about it. I am in the same boat as you are in a sense. No one has yet had a chance to hear the BHA-1 with various headphones since it has not yet been released. I am torn in that the Violectric V200 has wide acclaim (and again, I have not yet heard one of those) and I also would love to find a Leben CS300SX used. The Leben is an integrated amp, but it is one of the very few I would consider as an option to a dedicated head amp which is admittedly contradictory to something I posted at the outset of this thread.

And thank you, Fsonicsmith, for a reply that helps describe how you came to join this circle. I looked at a lot of forums, but this is the only one in which I regularly participate, because aside from not being a mindless cheering section, it does not commit these typical forum offenses:

1. Taking personal preferences as Holy Writ, and allowing, as a consequence, the pursuit of heretics as devil worshippers. Here we know that personal preferences are just that, and that no piece of gear, or technology, satisfies every taste.

2. Allowing personal attacks, characterizations, and foul language. Here civility in my experience so far is taken seriously by the members.

3. Suffering a moderator who misses the point of what forums are about, and who sees his or her role as being a nanny or forum Nazi. Here, self-discipline rules on the basis that although we might drift a bit from time to time, we understand that we are here to share ideas and experiences. If at times we color a little beyond the lines, we rarely jump on one another.

I like your comments about headphone enthusiasts. It was difficult at first for me to fathom folks spending a lot of money to make their iPods work better, until I remembered that some high end companies, like Wadia, have been making gear for iPod users. But in any case it is a very different kind of community, and in my view, a very different kind of market, which is one of the reasons I was pressing James yesterday, and I think some others saw why I was.

Obviously, I want the BHA-1 to perform a certain way for selfish reasons, but there is another thing. I feel kind of like a member of the Bryston family, having so much or its equipment in my home and being a customer for 33 years. I want it to continue to succeed, to hit a home run every time at bat. My fear - maybe just nervousness - is that in this case it may not have read the market right. But no doubt Bryston understands about these gambles far more than I do.

I am unfamiliar with the equipment that you mention, but now that you have, I'm going to look into the names.

Dave

Fsonicsmith

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #457 on: 8 Dec 2011, 07:07 pm »
I am just a tad concerned about Mr. Tanner's constant references to the BHA-1 being a product aimed at the "youth market" and "younger crowd used to iPods". I would hope that it is a no-compromise design. Contantly referencing gearing the product to a crowd who has no familiarity with the high end does not instill confidence. Everything else about the design does.
Violectric is very unusual in specifying power into multiple impedances as can be seen if you look at their website; http://www.violectric.de/Pages/en/technical-data.php

I would love to hear from Mr. Tanner as to the actual amount of power (current) expressed in mW that the BHA-1 can deliver into 32 ohm rather than the repeated reference to +/- 32 voltage swing capability. As I understand it, current into a given impedance is far more "accurate" as an indicator of predictive performance for the Audeze LCD-2s than voltage swing.

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #458 on: 8 Dec 2011, 07:46 pm »
I am just a tad concerned about Mr. Tanner's constant references to the BHA-1 being a product aimed at the "youth market" and "younger crowd used to iPods". I would hope that it is a no-compromise design. Contantly referencing gearing the product to a crowd who has no familiarity with the high end does not instill confidence. Everything else about the design does.
Violectric is very unusual in specifying power into multiple impedances as can be seen if you look at their website; http://www.violectric.de/Pages/en/technical-data.php

I would love to hear from Mr. Tanner as to the actual amount of power (current) expressed in mW that the BHA-1 can deliver into 32 ohm rather than the repeated reference to +/- 32 voltage swing capability. As I understand it, current into a given impedance is far more "accurate" as an indicator of predictive performance for the Audeze LCD-2s than voltage swing.

James, I hope you will respond to our new member. My own observation is though I, too, am somewhat skeptical about the target market (even absent the youth target), I haven't a doubt in the world that the only compromises Bryston will make are to produce the very best possible amp consistent with its design philosophy and reasonable pricing. That is baked into every Bryston product I have ever bought and enjoyed.

Dave

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Re: Bryston Headphone Interface
« Reply #459 on: 8 Dec 2011, 07:58 pm »
Hi Guys

Yes my original thought (as silly as that seems now)  :duh: -- was a small high quality portable head phone amplifier for those younger folks using the earplugs/ipods/ etc.

But as I was researching what we could do to address that specific market I realized there was this totally sophisticated very serious headphone listening customer that I had no idea existed. So when Stuart (one of our design engineers) and I originally talked he felt he could put together a very competitive small portable headphone amp very quickly and easily.  Well that original idea has ballooned into this all out state of the art attempt at a Bryston headphone amplifier.

Maybe there is still room for the portable unit down the road???

james