[warnerwh]

"Now it seems bracing is a very cost effective "

Zybar: That's an understatement. I'm sure audiochef will agree. The pics in the magazine I sent should give you an idea. Bracing helps, period. The more the better.  Just make sure you don't get so carried away you change the internal volume of the cabinet too much. I like the cross braces combined with the horizontal braces. Go to Home Depot and get some dowel for a closet. It's about 1.625" dia. and made of maple I think. Cut it to fit snugly in your cabinets. One piece going front to back and the other side to side.  Do this above the bottom woofer and below the top woofer. You don't need to glue it in as it should be a snug fit and sanding the edges will make it easier to wedge them in. This is just a test for you so if you don't like it you can just remove them.  These do not need to be dead center in the walls, just near there and perpendicular of course.  Then listen to your speakers and get back to us.  I suspect this will make the most difference but some extra bracing will also help.  It'll cost you 5 bucks and an hour of your time.  I'm curious as to what you think.  You can pull the braces back out if you want but if you decide to leave them in, which you will, I'd hot glue the ends and then hit the tops with some more glue once they're in.

[Enrico]

Brian, just like all other designers has to look at the overall design and "balance" all the components and the costs to deliver them within his pricing window with the minimum/maximum performance goal.

But John, that was my whole point. The COST of applying additional bracing is (apparently) extremely low, in both materials and time required. So why is it not included automatically?

I'm particularly piqued by this question because when I tap on the outside of my 626s I get a very definite hollow ringing sound. The cabinet does not SEEM to be particularly solid...they still sound great, make no mistake, but I'd like them to sound even better.

I am NOT a DIYer and may never be (no time and no interest in process...only results!). So the alternatives you offer do not appeal to me.

[Marbles]

I agree with you Enrico.

For a 3 dollar rod and a little time (I suspect this is the most expensive part) a better cabinet could be had.  

Also using some better stuffing behind the midrange panels doesn't seem to be to expensive but would offer better (subjective of course) performance at not much of an increase in price.

At least these should be offered as options if nothing else.

[John Casler]

I am NOT a DIYer and may never be (no time and no interest in process...only results!). So the alternatives you offer do not appeal to me.

Hi Enrico,

The point I was making, is that while bracing is cheap, you can always add another one, and then another one, and then another one, until the cabinet is full of them.  

Then you have the problem of reduced cabinet volume and need to build a bigger cabinet that needs more bracing and so on.

A cabinet cannot be too well braced or stiff.

So you can ask the same question after every improvement, or level of build quality.

And maybe it was "glossed over" but the MLS cabinets will "all" have improved stiffness, if not from bracing, it will also come from a slightly more dense MDF.

[warnerwh]

The speakers we've all received from VMPS are outstanding for the money. That should answer any questions of why more time and money isn't spent on each speaker. If anybody disagree's I'd like to hear why?  Virtually all speakers are built to a price point.  As are amplifiers, preamps, cd players, dacs etc.  Just about every product could be made better for "a little more", but where do you draw the line? I'm sure Brian could add 100 per speaker or 500 per speaker by spending more time and money on each one. Even a fully upgraded RM 40 at 6k a pair is a compromise, much less anything smaller.  There's much more to consider than I think most people who have never been in business understand.  I'm personally extremely impressed by Brian's speakers. This is because of what you get for the money.  If anybody wants the speaker from VMPS with the fewest compromises they can just buy a pair of RM/X's. These cabinets had the extra money and time put into them.  There are other speakers with few compromises out there too.  Check what the manufacturers charge for these and you'll be back.

It's so easy to add a little bracing yourselves it's really not worth worrying about whether it's done at the factory or not.  Not to mention Brian would have to charge an extra 100 for what you can do for 10 and a couple of hours of your time.

[zybar]

I can't comment on the bracing (yet), but I am in the process of replacing the insulation behind the midrange/tweeter with lamb's wool.  I have done one speaker so far and if I play a mono or test signal, there is better clarity and detail from the speaker with the lamb's wool vs the one with insulation.

This change cost around $20 for the wool and it was quite easy to do.  Just be very careful that you don't break the wires hooked up to the midrange/tweeter when taking out and putting in.  Also, don't overstuff or understuff.

GW

[BrunoB]

I can't comment on the bracing (yet), but I am in the process of replacing the insulation behind the midrange/tweeter with lamb's wool.  I have done one speaker so far and if I play a mono or test signal, there is better clarity and detail from the speaker with the lamb's wool vs the one with insulation.

This change cost around $20 for the wool and it was quite easy to do.  Just be very careful that you don't break the wires hooked up to the midrange/tweeter when taking out and putting in.  Also, don't overstuff or understuff.

GW

What's happening when you overstuff or understuff?


Thanks,

Bruno

[BrunoB]

I put braces and BH5  in my 626R last year. For those interested, I took some pictures:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=92

Braces are dowels from Wal Mart. They are a little bit too wide and put the opposite panels under slight pressure. They are fixed with wood glue on top of the soundcoat.

I have never listen to the 626R without braces so I cannot comment on the sound improvement.

Bruno

[BrunoB]

I'm puzzled by the fact that a 3 dollar/2 hour upgrade can make a dramatic improvement in the sound quality. If bracing is so good (which I don't doubt)...why doesn't VMPS make its speakers this way in the first place?

I think that Brian has answered this question in another thread:

The RM 40 has cost constraints in its design.  You could add bracing at will if you don't take up a lot of cabinet volume.  The Soundcoat does a better job damping panels than braces do.  You have topflight internal parts and wiring.  The system is tunable and that's where I'd concentrate my efforts, setting the level controls and tuning the PR.  These adjustments are extremely important, much more so than any tweaks.

Bruno

[azryan]

"-The speakers we've all received from VMPS are outstanding for the money. That should answer any questions of why more time and money isn't spent on each speaker. If anybody disagree's I'd like to hear why?-"

'Cuz bracing is terribly cheap, esp. when you're in the process of building the cabinet compared to having to gut a finshed speaker and get something that'll fit inside there.

At the very least cross-brace dead center where the most flex/pressure will occur. I was honestly shocked that it wasn't braced when I heard them (and posted that opinion months ago).

"-Just about every product could be made better for "a little more", but where do you draw the line?-"

I think you draw the line at 'something reasonable'. In the RM-40 I'd call something resonable to be 2 or 3 braces in such a huge cabinet since it flexes without it. Might have to raise the price $5, but when people say it's worth thousands... that's reasonable.

"-I'm sure Brian could add 100 per speaker or 500 per speaker by spending more time and money on each one.-"

This, like John's comment -"The point I was making, is that while bracing is cheap, you can always add another one, and then another one, and then another one, until the cabinet is full of them.  Then you have the problem of reduced cabinet volume and need to build a bigger cabinet
that needs more bracing and so on.-"
is IMO greatly exaggerating the idea of putting in LOTS braces to defend having none in the stock cabinet.

Does anyone buy the idea that putting 100-500 braces inside this cabinet is the alternative to 'none'? C'mon.

"-Not to mention Brian would have to charge an extra 100 for what you can do for 10 and a couple of hours of your time.-"

IMO, this is also wild exaggeration, and hurts anyone who can't actually do this 'tweak' (which IMO is not a 'tweak') for themselves (as some have said here).

Edited from Audio Asylum 'argument' between John C. and I months ago.

We 'e-shook' on the argument part so this is just some of the actual 'debate points' which relate to this thread...

I wrote -"-I'm not thrilled w/ the 40's cabinet's lack of bracing,-"

John C. replied -"-While AZ goes on about the lack of bracing and sturdiness, he actually has no idea as to what bracing "is" in the RM40, nor is there some type of "objective" standard to judge this or what affect if any, his perception has on the sound.-"

I replied back -"-What I DO know is that I knocked on the sides of the cabinet and there was clearly not bracing there. This will make those sidewalls vibrate when hammering out bass esp. being sealed cabinets w/ a pas. radiator.

What I also know is that the current raved about $10K RM/X which is the step above the RM-40's DOES in fact have a lot of bracing inside so I think it's not going too far to speculate that they consider this to be a benefit to their speaker's design no?-"

Now John writes -"If I might interject, cabinet rigidity and bracing is like "money". YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH!!!-"

Which is it?

And I guess I DID know didn't I?
Either John himself didn't know there was none or he didn't want to say there was none.
(not trying to pick a fight John. just stating debate points.)

Bracing should be almost free out of MDF or dowels IMO. It kills me to see people trying to brace a cabinet that should already have bracing in it from the factory. I doubt there's any major company w/ a speaker this large w/ no (or even little) bracing.

It just drives me nuts that this stuff goes backwards so often with this company.

People point out flaws and/or quirks in a VMPS design and get called a troll. But then when people actually listen and implement something to improve/correct the flaw/quirk everyone flips out raving about how it's worth thousands of dollars more than it already was??

And it's from the 'trolls' pointing out these 'issues' that these benefits come from. Not the people who blindly rave about how VMPS is the ultimate in flawless perfection.

From Brian's comments on braces..."-The Soundcoat does a better job damping panels than braces do.-"

Highly highly debatable IMO and doesn't match people's finding here having actually put in some braces.
 
"Hey, wouldn't narrow baffles be better on the neos since that's most of the speaker?"

Troll!

Later... RM/X and RM-30 with extra thin baffles.

"Hey, wouldn't replaceing those L-pads with actual top quality reisistors be better signal quality (or having the driver sections level matched w/o needing to be padded down in the first place)?"

Troll!

Later... 'Yes... Mills resistors would be better, but not adjustable' (I personally don't might a non-adjustable speaker that's designed to be flat).

"Hey wouldn't it be better to cross the Neos a little higher to get more impact from the woofers?"

Troll!

Later... "I'm thinking of doing that on the other designs and already have on the RM-30's"

"Hey, wouldn't it be better to have a single super tweeter instead of dual spirals w/ such wide spacing they'd have to comb playing freq. smaller than the space between them?"

and...

"Hey, don't the Neo panels begin to beam playing up into the sub 2" long freq range they play to (10kHz)?"

Troll!

Later... -Here's the new FST. You only need one and it crosses a little lower.'

"Hey, is the RMX really a 'true line source' (like the web site still says)?  I thought the woofers and FST would still act like a point source?"

Troll!

Later... "Yeah, it isn't actually a true line source. Just the neo section."

On behalf of all the 'trolls' who are actually just people who want to express points that might be helpful though I totally understand are often difficult to swallow.... "no prob. It was free".

[ARAM]

I  do  remember  Azryan  stating  that  there  was  not  enough  bracing  inside  RM40  awhile  ago...

[John Casler]

AZ why do you waste your time writing all this stuff.

Your posts about bracing have "no" bearing on what was done, is done, or will be done to VMPS speakers.

We announced an improvement to an already great speaker.  That did not make the older versions "lousy".  They were already great enough to make a lot of people very happy.

Your knuckle rapping on cabinets and guesses of what are inside have no bearing on the "sound" they make.

If they sounded this good then, and have an improvement then they will probably sound better tomorrow.

I have no idea why you feel compelled to constantly launch into these encyclopedic posts about what Brian does with his speakers.

Your opinion is just that when it relates to how a speaker sounds or should sound.  If you like your speakers better which is OK by just about everyone, then enjoy them and allow others to enjoy theirs.

There is no speaker on the planet that couldn't be improved in some way.  To continuosly go "on and on" about VMPS speakers and all their shortcoming (especially in the VMPS forum) is in poor form.

I felt you had turned the corner and were able to at least post good constructive comments, without the "I know it all" negative "tude" you have slipped back into.

As you have seen, Brian has defended your opinions and I do to, when it comes to reasonable and constructive criticism, but these critical epic tomes you write serve no purpose.

The improved cabinets have nothing to do with you, or any complaints by anyone, period.

They are the result of now being able add the improvements and not have to charge more to do so.

Plain and simple.

Why don't we just let that happen, rather than offer this kind of negative, dispariging, display?

Is there really a positive point to doing this?

[Brian Cheney]

The big impediment to standard cross-bracing on the RM 40 is the large midrange subenclosure which extends 10" into the woofer enclosure.

I do not care for dowels, which make the front baffle drive the back baffle.
Window bracing is the best but only Dorne Dibble had the equipment to cut them so they would be effective.  Plus he mounts them solidly in grooves, their shape is trapezoidal, and they cradle the subenclosure rather than running a brace under or through it.  In the latter case it would cause reflections and disturb the panel mounting.

There are many commercial speaker boxes which are completely unbraced, such as the Vandersteen 2.  During play it shakes like a leaf.

Many other boxes are unbraced and undamped; Sonus Faber and Michael Green's designs come to mind.

The extremely heavy RM 40 cabinet (190 lbs empty) has low panel output to begin with, with Soundcoat cutting that another 10 dB broadband.
Many manufacturers who use a Soundcoat-like damping of the enclosure have no braces inside; the heavily braced enclosures out of England I've seen have no panel damping compound applied to the walls.

[azryan]

"-AZ why do you waste your time writing all this stuff. -"

No suprise, but I had hope.

I tried to make my point clear. A lot of people have made points about how to improve the design of these speakers and are almost always treated with disregard or worse -yet over and over improvements DO often come from it.

Also, this has to easily be the most interesting forum on AC.

"-We announced an improvement to an already great speaker. That did not make the older versions "lousy". They were already great enough to make a lot of people very happy.-"

I never said anything to the contrary. In fact I'm known for often stating how good VMPS is in many ways and you know that. I think you're being overly defencive, but I understand why and expect it.

"-I have no idea why you feel compelled to constantly launch into these encyclopedic posts about what Brian does with his speakers.-"

'Cuz my (and others) criticizm (sp?) often help VMPS make better speakers. And also as counterpoint to the many amount of IMO 'blind' raves. I'm sure you'' totally disagree and that's fine by me.

"-Your opinion is just that when it relates to how a speaker sounds or should sound.-"

I kinda knew that already but thanks for re-explaining what an 'opinion' is to me.

"-If you like your speakers better which is OK by just about everyone, then enjoy them and allow others to enjoy theirs.-"

Where did I mention my speakers? I'm seeing a chip on your shoulder. I wish it weren't there. Obviously you'd love it if you could state anything you want here to sell as many speakers as possible with everyone in total agreement, but there will be people that disagree with you. You're going to have to come to terms with that and just stick to the actual points people make instead of sidestepping them and going after the people who say the points.

"-There is no speaker on the planet that couldn't be improved in some way.-"

Agreed. And a point I've often made myself,

"-To continuosly go "on and on"-"

"on and on'? You mean I can't post here unless I don't see anything other than perfect about the speaker line?

"-about VMPS speakers and all their shortcoming (especially in the VMPS forum) is in poor form.-"

Insulting (but I'll live) and IMO debatable.

"-I felt you had turned the corner and were able to at least post good constructive comments,
without the "I know it all" negative "tude" you have slipped back into.-"

I think this might have something to do with me disagreeing with points I said that conradict thigs you've said. Feel free to demonize me if you want. If people actually look at the points we make I think they'll see things a little diff... but maybe not?

"-The improved cabinets have nothing to do with you, or any complaints by anyone, period.
They are the result of now being able add the improvements and not have to charge more to do so.
 Plain and simple.-"

I don't think that's true, but I already stated that in a previous post so we'll have to just disagree.

"-Is there really a positive point to doing this?-"

I think so. I think it seems to lead to improvements to VMPS speakers. You clearly don't see this though the facts are in the history of the forums and comments people have posted and things that have changed over time.

Can't there be an advocate for change if that person ('people'... I'm far from the only person) has ideas about speaker design that have often turned into actual improvements that benefit others? Is that so horrible.

I do get ticked off how people who offer these opinions are treated so poorly when they seem to help down the road.

I'll try to 'play nice', but I'm sure I'll say something that you won't like in the future. sorry (in advance).

[azryan]

Hey Brian,

"-I do not care for dowels, which make the front baffle drive the back baffle.-"

I was thinking crossbracing sidewall to side wall, but optimal I would think would be a sheet of MDF w/ airflow cut into it -like you were talking about.
I don't think a customer could retro that into a finished cabinet (as far as I know).

"-There are many commercial speaker boxes which are completely unbraced, such as the Vandersteen 2.-"

Hmm... didn't know that. Don't they have sepp. cainets for diff. drivers? That'd be diff. than one large open cabinet I'd say, but yeah still unbraced pretty much.

"-Many other boxes are unbraced and undamped; Sonus Faber-"

I've heard and checked out Sonus Faber's Cremonas are they are rock hard IMO.

The cabinet is obviously very thick and/or inherently braced due to it's curved back shape. I don't care how it's done, just as long as the end result is a hard cabinet.

That soundcoat didn't seem to be enough to cancel the heavy bass pressure.

"-The extremely heavy RM 40 cabinet (190 lbs empty) has low panel output to begin with, with Soundcoat cutting that another 10 dB broadband.-"

How does soundcoat dampen deep bass waves/pressure on the cabinet? Doesn't 'broadband' in this case mean mids and highs more-so (or only) than bass?

[KJ]

"Many manufacturers who use a Soundcoat-like damping of the enclosure have no braces inside; the heavily braced enclosures out of England I've seen have no panel damping compound applied to the walls."

Brian - do you believe that an certain balance of damping compound and bracing tend to provide an optimal solution (not discounting the cabinet material) compared to leaning more toward one or the other?

The heavy matrix bracing in B&W speakers come to mind in your reference.  Being a current B&W owner (I know, I know...the sound of glue) and having been recently introduced to VMPS products I was curious.  Thanks in advance for your opinion/input.

-KJ

[Brian Cheney]

When dealing with waves below 200Hz you lose the ability to stop transmission through the cabinet in any effective way.  Solids transmit bass very efficiently, more so as frequency drops.  Some cabinets that feel solid pass LF wavelengths like the panels aren't there.  Understandable as you reach 30ft, 40ft and 50ft peak-to-peak.

Also, it is a completely different beast to damp a large box rather than a small one.  

The knuckle test has little to do with cabinet quality.  I've heard some extraordinarily inert boxes with smudged and boomy bass output which the tunable RM 40 lacks completely.

So to answer your question, you have to stop somewhere.  The RM/X is as far as I go, with the RM 40 close behind.

Azryan, I don't mind your questions a bit.  As you said, it makes this the most interesting manufacturer's forum on the web, and one of the most popular.

I expect the new heavily braced RM40 cabinet to sound better, but I'm not yet sure exactly how.

[zybar]

Brian,

Since you mentioned that you don't like dowels, is there anything you can send an RM 40 owner that can be retrofitted in the field?

GW

[John Casler]

I do get ticked off how people who offer these opinions are treated so poorly when they seem to help down the road.

I'll try to 'play nice', but I'm sure I'll say something that you won't like in the future. sorry (in advance).

AZ,  

I certainly don't mean to "treat you poorly".  As I said, the cabinet improvement did not come from anyone worrying about the former cabinet.

It came about by Mark Shifter walking over to the RM40 and looking at it.  

He reached up, put his hand on top of the cabinet, turned and looked over his shoulder at Brian and said "and you sell this for $4600?"

Brian said "yep".  

I then said "and that includes shipping".

Mark shook his head and said "remarkable".

He then looked at Big B again and said, "I just started to use a more dense MDF and I think it would work good here."  Mark looked at the cabinet again and asked "Do you want me to add any extra bracing?"

Brian responded "If you can fit it in, that would be great".

And that was that.  

Now of course I was sitting in my chair thinking "Boy won't that make AZRyan happy?"     (NOT)

Point is, the improvment happend because the door to make that improvment had been opened, not because of a major perceived deficiency.

I trust that someday with all this creativity, we'll see an AZR speaker forum or maybe AZ123???

Now you don't really think I have a "chip" on my shoulder do you?

[audiochef]

Yes,this is a highly coveted forum.

With enough class to even endure the uncouthed.

Hats off ,VMPSrs