AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => VMPS Speakers => Topic started by: audiochef on 21 Feb 2004, 10:16 pm
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Extremely coherent , is what I first noticed .
The bass is extremely fast and tight without any reduction in weight.
Images are now rock solid.
Completely different , no bs.
All I did was ad four side to side braces using 3/4 by 3/4 inch dowels ,cut to 1 millimeter wider than widyh of inside of cabinet ,pulled tight and wood glued. Just under 10.5 inces each.
A must do ,only cost about 3 dollars !!!
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After I added bracing to my ST/R SE's I was literally stunned at the improvements. Took a few minutes for it to digest. Absolutely amazing especially for the money and time involved. Everything is much more coherent but the bass is what shocked me the most. The midrange and treble are both audibly improved too. You won't have to try to hear this as it will be obvious. Then of course you have to readjust your speakers as the difference is major.
Glad someone else has tried it. Like I said earlier, there's a reason the RM/X has a SIX inch baffle and some of the best sounding speakers are those with unusually rigid cabinets. Learned this while reading up on speaker design and took the risk. While I was in there I also used hot glue on the shelf braces and the corners of the boxes, at least where it was easy to do so. Also I took some 1x2" oak pieces and glued them to the sides near the middle of the panels furthest away from the shelf bracing. This oak wood can be bought at Home Depot and is actually closer to 3/4" by 1.7" so it doesn't take much volume. It's nice and straight and flat too.
Was trying to figure out a way to mount an extra hundred pounds. Maybe a couple of 50 pound plates on top would work but not look too good. Anybody got a great idea for adding mass?
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Any pics guys before you mounted the braces?
Where exactly did you put them?
GW
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can I do this to my RM1's?
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Hi Zybar,
sorry no pics, but they are evenly spaced from right on top of lower woofer, just below upper and two spaced in upper and lower center.
You must do this ,Zybar. Took me 2 hours, I'd pay a thousand dollars for this upgrade.
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Max, a friend of mine has the original Rm1s and I'm now going to insist on doing this for him.
I'll make him post a review afterwards.
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audiochef,
Could take some pics when you do the RM 1's? A friend of mine, who has built many sets of speakers, recommended this to me also, but I have not yet taken the initiative. Some pictures might motivate me.
Thanks!
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Does the glue stick to the soundcoat?
GW
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good question ,I was just discussing that very thing with my Rm1 friend who is now working on his.
If it dosn't stick,
Warnerwh was suggesting hot glue which would be better anyway.
When the wood is wedged in place , it should'nt be too much of a concern.
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I'm puzzled by the fact that a 3 dollar/2 hour upgrade can make a dramatic improvement in the sound quality. If bracing is so good (which I don't doubt)...why doesn't VMPS make its speakers this way in the first place?
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Great question, Enrico! :D
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Sal Salgado built all the RM 40 cabinets to date and could not find room for window braces, the only kind I like, using his manual cutting equipment (pin routers, table saws).
Dorne Dibble found a way to fit them in with some fancy tongue-and-groove CNC work. We will make these braces available on a cost basis to DIYer's.
All other VMPS cabinets are braced at the usual points.
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Thanks audiochef...a description of what to do would really help. I've never taken apart a pair of speakers, and I'll do it but not unless I'm really clear on the instructions. Looking forward to hearing from you.
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I don't know Enrico,
I suppose it's a cost issue. The same reason electronic components don't include cones and damping sheets which is obviously advantages to them.
I don't mind this personalized tweaing , It's very gratifying.
Oh and by the way, 4 hours later . My system kicks some serious A.
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I've posted pics out of a book on speaker braces in the Gallery. From left to right they are: Cross Braces, Horizontal Braces and Corner Braces. Here's a pic of some window braces: http://www.websterfam.net/monte/speaker/monte4.jpg
The cross braces are super easy and very effective. These must be fit very snugly. I used maple dowels for closets. There's no problem with the soundcoat as it appears it's something that soaks into the MDF. If you use hotglue get the kind that takes over a minute to dry to give yourself some time to work. Like audiochef said "he'd pay a thousand dollars for this upgrade". You guys will be surprised.
On the RM 40's I'd get some heavy dowel and do cross braces just above and below the woofers. Then some horizontal bracing with oak in other places. While you're in there hot glue the corners.
On a sidenote be very careful with hotglue while working in an enclosed area. Major pain, trust me on this. I had to keep my finger in icewater for 6 hours before I could take it out and not be in excruciating pain.
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There aren't any pics in the gallery.
Let us know when you have the pics up.
GW
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Pic is there now. Note the side braces. On mine I put the wide part against the cabinet wall instead of the thinner part. Use oak as it's rigid, dense, and different than the MDF. You want to remove the resonances. I suspect besides cost reasons Brian doesn't do these due to the fact you could run into problems shipping and moving them around. I glued the hell out of everything and it's not coming off. A little scary when doing it but like audiochef learned it is well worth the effort. No black magic or snake oil here, pure physics.
Also I put hot glue on the ends of the heavy dowel before putting them in. It helped to round the with a belt sander to get them in and make sure the fit is perfect before installing. Have your hammer or mallet ready as the hot glue drys fast. If you don't have a hot glue gun they're cheap.
Be sure to knock on the sides of your cabinet before and after. The cabinets are actually well made but you will find they become much more inert with the bracing.
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Brian: From what you're saying, this lack of internal bracing only applies to RM40 cabinets, correct?
Do all RM2 cabinets have full bracing already built in when they were made?
Thanks for any info. :)
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If I might interject, cabinet rigidity and bracing is like "money".
YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH!!! (Ok you probably can, but you get the idea) :lol:
That said, "any" improvement to the electronics, drivers, or cabinets will obviously increase production costs and speaker pricing.
Brian, just like all other designers has to look at the overall design and "balance" all the components and the costs to deliver them within his pricing window with the minimum/maximum performance goal.
It should be readily understood that the VMPS and particularly the RM40 is one stellar bargain, and with a few little DIY tweaks, it moves even higher up the ladder.
Although many don't percieve it this way, the average shipping charge on the RM40 is around $450. This means that the finished "stock" speaker is around $4150.
And as most of you know going through a dealer might get you substantially below that. 8)
So, I think it is rather cool that you can buy a speaker for around $4K, play with the insulation, screw and glue in additional bracing, and even attach "acoustic foam" on the baffles for anti-defraction devices, and have a speaker that sounds like "thousands" more.
(Excuse my thinking out loud) :mrgreen:
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John,
I couldn't agree more with what you are saying! 8)
What would be great if either VMPS dealers or Brian himself could help the people who are looking to make the already very good RM 40's even better.
You have done that with your foam and sonic director tweaks - thank you.
Now it seems bracing is a very cost effective and relatively simple way of improving as well. If we can get some simple directions and pics I feel comfortable making changes (having opened up the 40's multiple times now). If Brian wants to sell braces that I can put in myself that he approves, even better!
Let's keep the tweaking coming.
GW
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"Now it seems bracing is a very cost effective "
Zybar: That's an understatement. I'm sure audiochef will agree. The pics in the magazine I sent should give you an idea. Bracing helps, period. The more the better. Just make sure you don't get so carried away you change the internal volume of the cabinet too much. I like the cross braces combined with the horizontal braces. Go to Home Depot and get some dowel for a closet. It's about 1.625" dia. and made of maple I think. Cut it to fit snugly in your cabinets. One piece going front to back and the other side to side. Do this above the bottom woofer and below the top woofer. You don't need to glue it in as it should be a snug fit and sanding the edges will make it easier to wedge them in. This is just a test for you so if you don't like it you can just remove them. These do not need to be dead center in the walls, just near there and perpendicular of course. Then listen to your speakers and get back to us. I suspect this will make the most difference but some extra bracing will also help. It'll cost you 5 bucks and an hour of your time. I'm curious as to what you think. You can pull the braces back out if you want but if you decide to leave them in, which you will, I'd hot glue the ends and then hit the tops with some more glue once they're in.
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Brian, just like all other designers has to look at the overall design and "balance" all the components and the costs to deliver them within his pricing window with the minimum/maximum performance goal.
But John, that was my whole point. The COST of applying additional bracing is (apparently) extremely low, in both materials and time required. So why is it not included automatically?
I'm particularly piqued by this question because when I tap on the outside of my 626s I get a very definite hollow ringing sound. The cabinet does not SEEM to be particularly solid...they still sound great, make no mistake, but I'd like them to sound even better.
I am NOT a DIYer and may never be (no time and no interest in process...only results!). So the alternatives you offer do not appeal to me.
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I agree with you Enrico.
For a 3 dollar rod and a little time (I suspect this is the most expensive part) a better cabinet could be had.
Also using some better stuffing behind the midrange panels doesn't seem to be to expensive but would offer better (subjective of course) performance at not much of an increase in price.
At least these should be offered as options if nothing else.
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I am NOT a DIYer and may never be (no time and no interest in process...only results!). So the alternatives you offer do not appeal to me.
Hi Enrico,
The point I was making, is that while bracing is cheap, you can always add another one, and then another one, and then another one, until the cabinet is full of them.
Then you have the problem of reduced cabinet volume and need to build a bigger cabinet that needs more bracing and so on.
A cabinet cannot be too well braced or stiff.
So you can ask the same question after every improvement, or level of build quality.
And maybe it was "glossed over" but the MLS cabinets will "all" have improved stiffness, if not from bracing, it will also come from a slightly more dense MDF.
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The speakers we've all received from VMPS are outstanding for the money. That should answer any questions of why more time and money isn't spent on each speaker. If anybody disagree's I'd like to hear why? Virtually all speakers are built to a price point. As are amplifiers, preamps, cd players, dacs etc. Just about every product could be made better for "a little more", but where do you draw the line? I'm sure Brian could add 100 per speaker or 500 per speaker by spending more time and money on each one. Even a fully upgraded RM 40 at 6k a pair is a compromise, much less anything smaller. There's much more to consider than I think most people who have never been in business understand. I'm personally extremely impressed by Brian's speakers. This is because of what you get for the money. If anybody wants the speaker from VMPS with the fewest compromises they can just buy a pair of RM/X's. These cabinets had the extra money and time put into them. There are other speakers with few compromises out there too. Check what the manufacturers charge for these and you'll be back.
It's so easy to add a little bracing yourselves it's really not worth worrying about whether it's done at the factory or not. Not to mention Brian would have to charge an extra 100 for what you can do for 10 and a couple of hours of your time.
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I can't comment on the bracing (yet), but I am in the process of replacing the insulation behind the midrange/tweeter with lamb's wool. I have done one speaker so far and if I play a mono or test signal, there is better clarity and detail from the speaker with the lamb's wool vs the one with insulation.
This change cost around $20 for the wool and it was quite easy to do. Just be very careful that you don't break the wires hooked up to the midrange/tweeter when taking out and putting in. Also, don't overstuff or understuff.
GW
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I can't comment on the bracing (yet), but I am in the process of replacing the insulation behind the midrange/tweeter with lamb's wool. I have done one speaker so far and if I play a mono or test signal, there is better clarity and detail from the speaker with the lamb's wool vs the one with insulation.
This change cost around $20 for the wool and it was quite easy to do. Just be very careful that you don't break the wires hooked up to the midrange/tweeter when taking out and putting in. Also, don't overstuff or understuff.
GW
What's happening when you overstuff or understuff?
Thanks,
Bruno
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I put braces and BH5 in my 626R last year. For those interested, I took some pictures:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=92
Braces are dowels from Wal Mart. They are a little bit too wide and put the opposite panels under slight pressure. They are fixed with wood glue on top of the soundcoat.
I have never listen to the 626R without braces so I cannot comment on the sound improvement.
Bruno
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I'm puzzled by the fact that a 3 dollar/2 hour upgrade can make a dramatic improvement in the sound quality. If bracing is so good (which I don't doubt)...why doesn't VMPS make its speakers this way in the first place?
I think that Brian has answered this question in another thread (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=7771.msg66741#66741&highlight=soundcoat+bracing#66741):
The RM 40 has cost constraints in its design. You could add bracing at will if you don't take up a lot of cabinet volume. The Soundcoat does a better job damping panels than braces do. You have topflight internal parts and wiring. The system is tunable and that's where I'd concentrate my efforts, setting the level controls and tuning the PR. These adjustments are extremely important, much more so than any tweaks.
Bruno
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"-The speakers we've all received from VMPS are outstanding for the money. That should answer any questions of why more time and money isn't spent on each speaker. If anybody disagree's I'd like to hear why?-"
'Cuz bracing is terribly cheap, esp. when you're in the process of building the cabinet compared to having to gut a finshed speaker and get something that'll fit inside there.
At the very least cross-brace dead center where the most flex/pressure will occur. I was honestly shocked that it wasn't braced when I heard them (and posted that opinion months ago).
"-Just about every product could be made better for "a little more", but where do you draw the line?-"
I think you draw the line at 'something reasonable'. In the RM-40 I'd call something resonable to be 2 or 3 braces in such a huge cabinet since it flexes without it. Might have to raise the price $5, but when people say it's worth thousands... that's reasonable.
"-I'm sure Brian could add 100 per speaker or 500 per speaker by spending more time and money on each one.-"
This, like John's comment -"The point I was making, is that while bracing is cheap, you can always add another one, and then another one, and then another one, until the cabinet is full of them. Then you have the problem of reduced cabinet volume and need to build a bigger cabinet
that needs more bracing and so on.-"
is IMO greatly exaggerating the idea of putting in LOTS braces to defend having none in the stock cabinet.
Does anyone buy the idea that putting 100-500 braces inside this cabinet is the alternative to 'none'? C'mon.
"-Not to mention Brian would have to charge an extra 100 for what you can do for 10 and a couple of hours of your time.-"
IMO, this is also wild exaggeration, and hurts anyone who can't actually do this 'tweak' (which IMO is not a 'tweak') for themselves (as some have said here).
Edited from Audio Asylum 'argument' between John C. and I months ago.
We 'e-shook' on the argument part so this is just some of the actual 'debate points' which relate to this thread...
I wrote -"-I'm not thrilled w/ the 40's cabinet's lack of bracing,-"
John C. replied -"-While AZ goes on about the lack of bracing and sturdiness, he actually has no idea as to what bracing "is" in the RM40, nor is there some type of "objective" standard to judge this or what affect if any, his perception has on the sound.-"
I replied back -"-What I DO know is that I knocked on the sides of the cabinet and there was clearly not bracing there. This will make those sidewalls vibrate when hammering out bass esp. being sealed cabinets w/ a pas. radiator.
What I also know is that the current raved about $10K RM/X which is the step above the RM-40's DOES in fact have a lot of bracing inside so I think it's not going too far to speculate that they consider this to be a benefit to their speaker's design no?-"
Now John writes -"If I might interject, cabinet rigidity and bracing is like "money". YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH!!!-"
Which is it?
And I guess I DID know didn't I?
Either John himself didn't know there was none or he didn't want to say there was none.
(not trying to pick a fight John. just stating debate points.)
Bracing should be almost free out of MDF or dowels IMO. It kills me to see people trying to brace a cabinet that should already have bracing in it from the factory. I doubt there's any major company w/ a speaker this large w/ no (or even little) bracing.
It just drives me nuts that this stuff goes backwards so often with this company.
People point out flaws and/or quirks in a VMPS design and get called a troll. But then when people actually listen and implement something to improve/correct the flaw/quirk everyone flips out raving about how it's worth thousands of dollars more than it already was??
And it's from the 'trolls' pointing out these 'issues' that these benefits come from. Not the people who blindly rave about how VMPS is the ultimate in flawless perfection.
From Brian's comments on braces..."-The Soundcoat does a better job damping panels than braces do.-"
Highly highly debatable IMO and doesn't match people's finding here having actually put in some braces.
"Hey, wouldn't narrow baffles be better on the neos since that's most of the speaker?"
Troll!
Later... RM/X and RM-30 with extra thin baffles.
"Hey, wouldn't replaceing those L-pads with actual top quality reisistors be better signal quality (or having the driver sections level matched w/o needing to be padded down in the first place)?"
Troll!
Later... 'Yes... Mills resistors would be better, but not adjustable' (I personally don't might a non-adjustable speaker that's designed to be flat).
"Hey wouldn't it be better to cross the Neos a little higher to get more impact from the woofers?"
Troll!
Later... "I'm thinking of doing that on the other designs and already have on the RM-30's"
"Hey, wouldn't it be better to have a single super tweeter instead of dual spirals w/ such wide spacing they'd have to comb playing freq. smaller than the space between them?"
and...
"Hey, don't the Neo panels begin to beam playing up into the sub 2" long freq range they play to (10kHz)?"
Troll!
Later... -Here's the new FST. You only need one and it crosses a little lower.'
"Hey, is the RMX really a 'true line source' (like the web site still says)? I thought the woofers and FST would still act like a point source?"
Troll!
Later... "Yeah, it isn't actually a true line source. Just the neo section."
On behalf of all the 'trolls' who are actually just people who want to express points that might be helpful though I totally understand are often difficult to swallow.... "no prob. It was free".
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I do remember Azryan stating that there was not enough bracing inside RM40 awhile ago...
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AZ why do you waste your time writing all this stuff.
Your posts about bracing have "no" bearing on what was done, is done, or will be done to VMPS speakers.
We announced an improvement to an already great speaker. That did not make the older versions "lousy". They were already great enough to make a lot of people very happy.
Your knuckle rapping on cabinets and guesses of what are inside have no bearing on the "sound" they make.
If they sounded this good then, and have an improvement then they will probably sound better tomorrow.
I have no idea why you feel compelled to constantly launch into these encyclopedic posts about what Brian does with his speakers.
Your opinion is just that when it relates to how a speaker sounds or should sound. If you like your speakers better which is OK by just about everyone, then enjoy them and allow others to enjoy theirs.
There is no speaker on the planet that couldn't be improved in some way. To continuosly go "on and on" about VMPS speakers and all their shortcoming (especially in the VMPS forum) is in poor form.
I felt you had turned the corner and were able to at least post good constructive comments, without the "I know it all" negative "tude" you have slipped back into.
As you have seen, Brian has defended your opinions and I do to, when it comes to reasonable and constructive criticism, but these critical epic tomes you write serve no purpose.
The improved cabinets have nothing to do with you, or any complaints by anyone, period.
They are the result of now being able add the improvements and not have to charge more to do so.
Plain and simple.
Why don't we just let that happen, rather than offer this kind of negative, dispariging, display?
Is there really a positive point to doing this?
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The big impediment to standard cross-bracing on the RM 40 is the large midrange subenclosure which extends 10" into the woofer enclosure.
I do not care for dowels, which make the front baffle drive the back baffle.
Window bracing is the best but only Dorne Dibble had the equipment to cut them so they would be effective. Plus he mounts them solidly in grooves, their shape is trapezoidal, and they cradle the subenclosure rather than running a brace under or through it. In the latter case it would cause reflections and disturb the panel mounting.
There are many commercial speaker boxes which are completely unbraced, such as the Vandersteen 2. During play it shakes like a leaf.
Many other boxes are unbraced and undamped; Sonus Faber and Michael Green's designs come to mind.
The extremely heavy RM 40 cabinet (190 lbs empty) has low panel output to begin with, with Soundcoat cutting that another 10 dB broadband.
Many manufacturers who use a Soundcoat-like damping of the enclosure have no braces inside; the heavily braced enclosures out of England I've seen have no panel damping compound applied to the walls.
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"-AZ why do you waste your time writing all this stuff. -"
No suprise, but I had hope.
I tried to make my point clear. A lot of people have made points about how to improve the design of these speakers and are almost always treated with disregard or worse -yet over and over improvements DO often come from it.
Also, this has to easily be the most interesting forum on AC.
"-We announced an improvement to an already great speaker. That did not make the older versions "lousy". They were already great enough to make a lot of people very happy.-"
I never said anything to the contrary. In fact I'm known for often stating how good VMPS is in many ways and you know that. I think you're being overly defencive, but I understand why and expect it.
"-I have no idea why you feel compelled to constantly launch into these encyclopedic posts about what Brian does with his speakers.-"
'Cuz my (and others) criticizm (sp?) often help VMPS make better speakers. And also as counterpoint to the many amount of IMO 'blind' raves. I'm sure you'' totally disagree and that's fine by me.
"-Your opinion is just that when it relates to how a speaker sounds or should sound.-"
I kinda knew that already but thanks for re-explaining what an 'opinion' is to me.
"-If you like your speakers better which is OK by just about everyone, then enjoy them and allow others to enjoy theirs.-"
Where did I mention my speakers? I'm seeing a chip on your shoulder. I wish it weren't there. Obviously you'd love it if you could state anything you want here to sell as many speakers as possible with everyone in total agreement, but there will be people that disagree with you. You're going to have to come to terms with that and just stick to the actual points people make instead of sidestepping them and going after the people who say the points.
"-There is no speaker on the planet that couldn't be improved in some way.-"
Agreed. And a point I've often made myself,
"-To continuosly go "on and on"-"
"on and on'? You mean I can't post here unless I don't see anything other than perfect about the speaker line?
"-about VMPS speakers and all their shortcoming (especially in the VMPS forum) is in poor form.-"
Insulting (but I'll live) and IMO debatable.
"-I felt you had turned the corner and were able to at least post good constructive comments,
without the "I know it all" negative "tude" you have slipped back into.-"
I think this might have something to do with me disagreeing with points I said that conradict thigs you've said. Feel free to demonize me if you want. If people actually look at the points we make I think they'll see things a little diff... but maybe not?
"-The improved cabinets have nothing to do with you, or any complaints by anyone, period.
They are the result of now being able add the improvements and not have to charge more to do so.
Plain and simple.-"
I don't think that's true, but I already stated that in a previous post so we'll have to just disagree.
"-Is there really a positive point to doing this?-"
I think so. I think it seems to lead to improvements to VMPS speakers. You clearly don't see this though the facts are in the history of the forums and comments people have posted and things that have changed over time.
Can't there be an advocate for change if that person ('people'... I'm far from the only person) has ideas about speaker design that have often turned into actual improvements that benefit others? Is that so horrible.
I do get ticked off how people who offer these opinions are treated so poorly when they seem to help down the road.
I'll try to 'play nice', but I'm sure I'll say something that you won't like in the future. sorry (in advance).
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Hey Brian,
"-I do not care for dowels, which make the front baffle drive the back baffle.-"
I was thinking crossbracing sidewall to side wall, but optimal I would think would be a sheet of MDF w/ airflow cut into it -like you were talking about.
I don't think a customer could retro that into a finished cabinet (as far as I know).
"-There are many commercial speaker boxes which are completely unbraced, such as the Vandersteen 2.-"
Hmm... didn't know that. Don't they have sepp. cainets for diff. drivers? That'd be diff. than one large open cabinet I'd say, but yeah still unbraced pretty much.
"-Many other boxes are unbraced and undamped; Sonus Faber-"
I've heard and checked out Sonus Faber's Cremonas are they are rock hard IMO.
The cabinet is obviously very thick and/or inherently braced due to it's curved back shape. I don't care how it's done, just as long as the end result is a hard cabinet.
That soundcoat didn't seem to be enough to cancel the heavy bass pressure.
"-The extremely heavy RM 40 cabinet (190 lbs empty) has low panel output to begin with, with Soundcoat cutting that another 10 dB broadband.-"
How does soundcoat dampen deep bass waves/pressure on the cabinet? Doesn't 'broadband' in this case mean mids and highs more-so (or only) than bass?
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"Many manufacturers who use a Soundcoat-like damping of the enclosure have no braces inside; the heavily braced enclosures out of England I've seen have no panel damping compound applied to the walls."
Brian - do you believe that an certain balance of damping compound and bracing tend to provide an optimal solution (not discounting the cabinet material) compared to leaning more toward one or the other?
The heavy matrix bracing in B&W speakers come to mind in your reference. Being a current B&W owner (I know, I know...the sound of glue) and having been recently introduced to VMPS products I was curious. Thanks in advance for your opinion/input.
-KJ
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When dealing with waves below 200Hz you lose the ability to stop transmission through the cabinet in any effective way. Solids transmit bass very efficiently, more so as frequency drops. Some cabinets that feel solid pass LF wavelengths like the panels aren't there. Understandable as you reach 30ft, 40ft and 50ft peak-to-peak.
Also, it is a completely different beast to damp a large box rather than a small one.
The knuckle test has little to do with cabinet quality. I've heard some extraordinarily inert boxes with smudged and boomy bass output which the tunable RM 40 lacks completely.
So to answer your question, you have to stop somewhere. The RM/X is as far as I go, with the RM 40 close behind.
Azryan, I don't mind your questions a bit. As you said, it makes this the most interesting manufacturer's forum on the web, and one of the most popular.
I expect the new heavily braced RM40 cabinet to sound better, but I'm not yet sure exactly how.
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Brian,
Since you mentioned that you don't like dowels, is there anything you can send an RM 40 owner that can be retrofitted in the field?
GW
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I do get ticked off how people who offer these opinions are treated so poorly when they seem to help down the road.
I'll try to 'play nice', but I'm sure I'll say something that you won't like in the future. sorry (in advance).
AZ,
I certainly don't mean to "treat you poorly". As I said, the cabinet improvement did not come from anyone worrying about the former cabinet.
It came about by Mark Shifter walking over to the RM40 and looking at it.
He reached up, put his hand on top of the cabinet, turned and looked over his shoulder at Brian and said "and you sell this for $4600?"
Brian said "yep".
I then said "and that includes shipping".
Mark shook his head and said "remarkable".
He then looked at Big B again and said, "I just started to use a more dense MDF and I think it would work good here." Mark looked at the cabinet again and asked "Do you want me to add any extra bracing?"
Brian responded "If you can fit it in, that would be great".
And that was that.
Now of course I was sitting in my chair thinking "Boy won't that make AZRyan happy?" :lol: :lol: (NOT)
Point is, the improvment happend because the door to make that improvment had been opened, not because of a major perceived deficiency.
I trust that someday with all this creativity, we'll see an AZR speaker forum or maybe AZ123??? :mrgreen:
Now you don't really think I have a "chip" on my shoulder do you? :lol:
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Yes,this is a highly coveted forum.
With enough class to even endure the uncouthed.
Hats off ,VMPSrs
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For anyone interested here is a picture from that infamous meeting (and Mark still has his hand on top of the speaker)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=564)
I think Brian is either explaining the size of something or reaching for Mark's wallet :lol:
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You should be able to retrofit the window braces by cutting them in half, then installing them through the woofer cutouts and gluing them back together and to the cabinet walls.
As soon as Dorne returns from his by-monthly trip to China I'll ask him about making additional retro-type braces available.
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Thanks Brian.
I look forward to getting the braces.
GW
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Hi Enrico,
The point I was making, is that while bracing is cheap, you can always add another one, and then another one, and then another one, until the cabinet is full of them.
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But John,
That's not much of a relevant point here. Was I suggesting that VMPS should try for 'the ultimate cabinet' with 'hundreds of braces'?? No, I was not. To imply that I was is a 'straw man' tactic. You are setting up a 'straw man' so that you can knock it down--but it's NOT what I said, let that be clear.
The original poster made a couple of factual observations: adding a brace resulted in improved sound quality, and adding a brace is easy for a skilled person to do. My question was: Since this is the case, why would not these extremely simple and cheap improvements be added at manufacture?
Your response did not address this issue at all. Hey, you don't have to address it. You can just ignore me. But please don't make me look like I'm asking for 'a super cabinet' and then dismiss it as absurd/impossible.
BrunoB's post was a lot closer to the mark, by suggesting that soundcoat does a better job anyway.
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That's not much of a relevant point here. Was I suggesting that VMPS should try for 'the ultimate cabinet' with 'hundreds of braces'?? No, I was not. To imply that I was is a 'straw man' tactic. You are setting up a 'straw man' so that you can knock it down--but it's NOT what I said, let that be clear.
The original poster made a couple of factual observations: adding a brace resulted in improved sound quality, and adding a brace is easy for a skilled person to do. My question was: Since this is the case, why would not these extremely simple and cheap improvements be added at manufacture?
Your response did not address this issue at all. Hey, you don't have to address it. You can just ignore me. But please don't make me look like I'm asking for 'a super cabinet' and then dismiss it as absurd/impossible.
Hi Enrico,
Sorry you didn't think I answered your question but I was attempting to.
Your question (as I understood it) was "Why wasn't this new bracing done before. (under the assumption that it is easy, cheap and effective)
I simply meant to state that:
1) the design met a current price/performance point
2) there will always be that question to any small improvements.
There will always be a "top" as well as a "bottom" line.
As Brian said:
So to answer your question, you have to stop somewhere. The RM/X is as far as I go, with the RM 40 close behind.
I think Brian has explained that the design "as it stands" is a good one.
Brian also said:
Sal Salgado built all the RM 40 cabinets to date and could not find room for window braces, the only kind I like, using his manual cutting equipment (pin routers, table saws).
I said:
Brian, just like all other designers has to look at the overall design and "balance" all the components and the costs to deliver them within his pricing window with the minimum/maximum performance goal.
Brian said:
I do not care for dowels, which make the front baffle drive the back baffle.
Window bracing is the best but only Dorne Dibble had the equipment to cut them so they would be effective. Plus he mounts them solidly in grooves, their shape is trapezoidal, and they cradle the subenclosure rather than running a brace under or through it. In the latter case it would cause reflections and disturb the panel mounting.
So I hope those "snippets" offer a step toward the answer to your question.
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John, thanks--actually I still find it hard to accept the price/performance argument per se. Brian's quotations are useful in understanding his position on why no additional bracing is used. As I said, I'm no DIY so I can't assess whether a cheap non-window brace would improve the sound--others say it does, but perhaps there is a sonic penalty as well which would be obvious with longer listening.
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I shouldn't have listened to Sal in the first place about the bracing. On the other hand, I had no alternative. We'll make some sophisticated bracing available to the DIY set.
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All this talk of bracing misses the point, which for me is that the original RM-40 when first introduced, in CES show conditions, sounded better, in every way, to my ears than many speakers at four and five times the price. For example, better than Wilson Watt Puppy 6s in a custom computer designed nonparallel walled Corning treated driven by $60K of electronics.
While I am certain that there can always be some improvements made in any speaker, there is a deminishing return. And let's not forget that VMPS speakers don't need to be "tweaked" or "further perfected" in some way to make them sound "better than the competition." They always have, and for a fraction of the price.
And that is just my 2 cents. Let's keep all this in perspective, and be grateful, as I am, that Brain has a passion for this hobby, and maintains the best value pricing in this industry of hype, glitz, and carbolic smoke tweaks.
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That's one way to look at it, but I disagree.
The fact that Brian makes a product with excellent performance for the money doesn't mean I shouldn't try to make it better. Also, I don't think it is necessarily about diminishing returns. I spent an hour or two replacing the insulation with lamb's wool behind the midrange panels and it was a noticeable improvement. Others have found improvements by bracing or other tweaks.
You also say:
And let's not forget that VMPS speakers don't need to be "tweaked" or "further perfected" in some way to make them sound "better than the competition."
This couldn't be farther from the truth!
I was not happy with the sound when I bought the speakers. A lot of that disappointment turned out to be me taking too much putty out. If you don't spend hours upon hours playing with not only the standard location (which you need to do with every speaker) but with putty and pots you can get really bad sound. If you make changes in your system, you have to go back and make changes again. I also pose this question? Outside of Brian who knows how his speaker is supposed to sound, how do we know when it is really right and can't get any better?
Before anybody kills me, yes I know that many view this as a positive. I am not so sure. I know it is next to impossible to get the putty and pots exactly equal on both speakers. If they aren't equal, is that having more of a negative than the positive impact?
The RM 40's are still the best speaker I have owned and the sound I am getting right now is the fantastic. I am just of the opinion that it can be even better and less error prone if certain things changed.
BTW, "grateful" for the RM 40's? I don't think so...
I am grateful I met a great woman and she married me. I am grateful that my son is healthy and a good kid. Well, you get the point.
GW
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The circa mid-late '90s FF3 SRE Active Ferites had an MSRP of about $7900. TAS said that spkr was possibly unbeatable at its price. My $5800 RM40 TRTs killed them in the Neo's five octave range (almost 1/2 the musical spectrum). The FF3 treble was slightly better, its bass improved by a thicker cabinet & active LP XO (woofers are identical). The RM40 is among the best values just as shipped. At least we all seem to agree on that!
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Brian,
Any update on the braces?
George
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Dorne has built an entire run (30 pcs) of piano black, heavily braced RM 40's. I'll ask him if he has some spares, or is willing to set up the CNC to run some.
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Outside of Brian who knows how his speaker is supposed to sound, how do we know when it is really right and can't get any better? ...
This is bad news or good depending on perspective. B has good days & bad just like anyone, meaning B will not always get the exact same results. Also, the quality of the sound will be determined by the length of time he spends tuning it. B makes mistakes just like anyone. He has gladly admitted to playing a system (I think for a reviewer) that later turned out to have a frozen woofer. I remember being at his place decades ago, a guy listens to MiniTower IIa's (before some of you were born), guy likes the sound, B & I heard no problems. Later a grill is removed to display a gaping empty midrange hole with 2 wires poking through on one channel (sum total of one mid per channel). Go figure.
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Am interested in the braces as well, so let us know. Thanks.
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I have had a pair of RM-40's for six months now. I am not a DIYer. Should I really mess with these speakers? Would a set of window braces cut by Dorn make a such a significant improvement that I should risk it?
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rlcordeiro,
yes, it's a no brainer , absolutely no drawbacks especially cranking it up.
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Early '02, shortly after the RM40 won the CES award, I met one of Bs customers who was getting a quote from Brian to build RM40 cabinets to FF3 SRE specs: thicker walls all around, don't know about bracing; I owned FF3 SRE for a year. Just what B wants to do: stock a "signature version" deluxe cabinet. It could be a special order item, with an advertised 6-8 week delay, if only the cabinets could be delivered in that time frame.
The FF3 SRE Active's bass certainly beat RM40s, the differences being the cabinet, active 4th order LP XO, & mandatory biamping with it's concomittant clutter. The woofers are identical.
The FF3's triple spirals also edged out the RM40s duals, but a single HET would beat 3 spirals anyday. The RM40 midrange & overall performance was better.
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Brian,
I have read about the braces made from dowel rod cut to the correct length, but I have no idea where the window braces would go.
Would these fit just above the woofer and just below the midwoofer?
Would we need to do anything besides shove them through the driver holes and glue them in place? In an earlier post you mentioned haveing to cut them in half, then glue them back together in the cabinet. Is that still the case?
What time frame do you have on these?
What do you estimate the cost to be?
Do you think the window braces are better than the dowel rod tweak?
Thanks for any info.
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I think one of the coolest things about VMPS speakers is that they are THE "tweaker's speakers". If you want your bass a different way, just tune the passive radiator. If you want to adjust the balance between mids and highs and the low frequency section, just set the L-pads. Want to try biamping? Flip the toggle switch. These speakers are reflective of Mr. Cheney's years of experience and dedication to providing the very best value, while still remaining so technologically-advanced (WCF woofer cones, ribbon mids with extended midbass performance, special spiral ribbon tweeters, those crazy slot-loaded adjustable PRs that I still can't seem to figure out how they work) that you still have bragging rights over most speakers out there. Certainly over any speaker in the same price range. Perhaps one day I'll own a pair of RM2s with megawoofers. Even if I don't have the amplification I can still drive them with my HT reciever until I have the money to buy the right amps.
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Before I cut some dowels up and glue them in, are there any updates to the window bracing for the DIY crowd?
I was thinking of putting a dowel from the back of the midrange box to the back panel of the cabinet at both the top and bottom of the mid-range box.
I was also thinking of putting in side to side dowels at just below the top woofer and just above the bottom one.
Thanks for any comments.
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Marbles: Those are good places to start. Maybe a couple of side braces where you just take some 1"x2" oak and glue it to the side panels in a few strategic places. Length doesn't need to run from one corner to another. Before you do anything though I'd contact Brian as the window braces are a superior design but much more difficult for a diyer to do. I know the braces are coming in the new models and you may be able to get some of those although you'd have to cut them especially if they're cut to fit in a groove in the cabinet walls. The reason I recommend this is because if you put in the window braces after putting in the side braces that are glued to the walls will let you lay the window brace on top of the side braces if you do it right. Did that make sense?
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Braced the cabinets this AM with 1" oak dowel.
I put them at the top, just beneath the woofer going from side to side, and one from the midrange enclosure to the back.
At the bottom of the cabinet, I just put one from side to side just above the woofer. I did not run one front to back as the XO is there.
What I'm hearing is the musical presentation is cleaned up, for all requencies.
The benifit, other than a cleaner presentation, is better imaging.
Highly recomended tweak.
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Glad you were able to get that done. You're description of the improvements is spot on. Must have something to do with the drivers having to fight the cabinet resonances. Very worthwhile tweak.
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Hi Guys,
I just got off the phone from Big B, and thought I might share a few ideas.
I am a strong beleiver in reducing cabinet resonances. In fact, I would suggest that many of you would be amazed at the amount of "cabinet talk" you have coming out of most brands of speakers.
Now internal bracing while good, is "NOT" as good as external bracing done well.
How do you "externally brace"? and Why do you externally brace?
Well that was part of my conversation with B.
I was plying him with the idea, that we could build all VMPS speakers in black and then apply the specific color finish in side panels?
Made sence to me, but would be a big transition.
But it also offered an additional benefit. Increased rigidity and a more inert cabinet.
Since the most resonant portion of the cabinet is the center of the side walls, "THAT" is the area of prime concern. This addresses that exact area.
Now simply running a dowel from one sidewall to the other will help, but not as much as external. Window bracing will also. Additionally adding things to the inside of cabinets "reduces" internal volume and of course can ultimatly affect the sound.
My idea was to "screw and glue" side panels on to the sides to effectively make the whole side of the speaker substantially more rigid and inert.
Since many are DIY's, adding some really neat and stylish Piano Black or matching finish panels would not only make the speaker (pre MLS RM40)look quite distinguished, (with a little artistic license) but would probably be better than internal bracing overall.
To give you an idea of how it would look, I found some Polks with side panels.
I would probably suggest maybe a slanted top to make it look a bit better, but for anyone interested, it is a cool DIY option.
In any event, just a suggestion for the DIY's in the group, who have the older style cabinets and might enjoy a project that could make their speaker ultimalty sound better, as well as look very nice, as well as have an "option" to bracing on the inside.
(http://www.polkaudio.com/images/home/large/cherry/lsi25.jpg)
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Let us know how it works out...
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Let us know how it works out...
Oooops :oops:
I didn't mean to imply that we were doing it. I was offering the idea as an option for DIY's who might want to try it as an alternative.
And the Polk pic is just an example (visual), but I would run the panel either full length , or have a stylish "rake" (angle) to it at the very top.
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Personally I wouldn't want to ruin the value of my speakers by adding something to the outside of the cabinet. The idea does have merit but would also cost alot more to do right. Also a little bit of bracing will not adversely affect the internal cabinet volume. There is typically some wiggle room. The net effect of what Marbles and others have done, including myself, has improved the overall sound of the speakers, no ifs ands or butts, unless they're nice ones:)