AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: danvprod on 15 Jul 2017, 07:56 pm
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My GR Research Super V system:
As of 2018-12-01:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187536)
As of 2018-05-23:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=180358)
As of 2018-05-07
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179854)
As of 2018-05:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179529)
As of 2018-04:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179357)
As of Late 2017:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=166152)
Room dimensions are 16’9” x 14’2” (small alcove in the back by the entry door to the room – 7’7’” x 2’2”, so the right side of the room is really 14'6") x 9’ tall. I leave the back door open because it lets the room depressurize quite a bite. It makes the left wall (looking towards the speakers from the listening chair) 12’ or so longer and moves the modal frequency away from the parallel wall.
Major Components:
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1. GR Research Super V speakers.
2. Rythmik Audio DirectServo A370PEQ amps to power the 12” SW-12-08FR subwoofers in the GR Super Vs.
3. Neurochrome Modulus-86 amplifier
4. PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC
6. Single-ended ICs (Gain Cell -> A370s): Blue Jeans Cables LC-1s
7. Balanced ICs (Gain Cell -> Modulus-86) Zenwave D3
8. Speaker Cables: Signal Cable Ultra Speaker Cables 8'.
9. Power conditioning: P.I. Audio Group MiniBUSS.
10. Power cords: Triode Wire Labs “American 8” for each A370 amp, 8+ for Mod-86. P.I. Audio Group MPC+ PowerCon for MiniBUSS (Made by Dave). P.I. Audio Group DAC cable for PS Audio SGC.
11. Hubbell spec grade duplex HBL5262GY.
12. Custom made low amp shelf. MDF/Plywood sandwich, heavily braced and coated with Duratex.
Room Acoustic Treatments:
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1. GIK Soffit bass traps 4x on the front (1x 35” to account for shorter right wall vs. left wall). 1x on the back wall behind the listening chair.
2. GIK Bass Pillar trap above the soffit behind the listening chair.
3. GIK 244 bass traps (2 at first reflection points), 2 between speakers (behind curtains), 1 at second reflection point on the longer left wall.
4. GIK QRD diffusers behind the Vs on the front wall x 2.
Notes:
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I wanted to post about my system now that I have had a chance to get it set up and dialed in during the last year (Super Vs purchased in Feb 2017). The Super Vs were not my first open baffle speakers that I’ve tried out in my room but far and away the best. The Super Vs replaced a pair of Decware-modified Fostex full range drivers in MLTL enclosures and before that a tri-amped pair of JBL horns (2226 + 2445 + 2405s). Bass from the Super Vs is unlike anything I’ve ever heard, even more powerful than my JBL 2226 midbass drivers in large enclosures with DSP and EQ.
Since purchasing them, I’ve also made lots of improvements to the room with treatments. I have five GIK acoustics soffit bass traps and a bass pillar, which have been the biggest improvement I’ve made in my room by far. I have a set of GIK 244 at first reflection points, a pair between the two speakers behind a set of curtains, and a single on the longer left wall at the second reflection point. I also have a pair of QRDs by GIK behind the Vs on the front wall.
I’ve tried a number of speaker cables in my system. I had been using some DIY “white lightning” cables, built from instructions on 6moons. More recently, I switched to Blue Jeans speaker cables (Ten White) having also tried AntiCables in the process. I’ve also had the Decware Zen Styx cables, which were a bit too short, so I sold them. I am now using Signal Cable Ultra Speaker Cables.
I use a P.I. Audio group miniBUSS. I plan on getting an uberBUSS in the future and daisy chaining the two together.
Music that I listen to:
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Jazz, classical, modern and classic rock. CDs ripped to loseless files played back through the PS Audio DAC from my Mac Mini. I run a 15’ USB cable directly out of my Mac Mini and into the DAC.
Updates:
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1. Still want to add an Uber Buss for additional power conditioning before the MiniBuss.
Historical Notes:
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1. 7/29/2017. Noted changed power conditioning solution. AudioPrism Foundation III has been sold, CD player out of the system. P.I. Audio miniBUSS purchased with DH Labs power plus. Decware speaker cables have been sold because they are too short. Back to White Lighting and Ancor tinned copper cords. Updated picture of system. Spatial black hole generator removed from system.
2. 5/01/2018. Updated pictures of the system. New curtains that aren't as shiny and not as blue (these are actually pretty close to medium gray in color). The hypothesis is that if they are shiny and cool, the system will sound that way too. I want neutral to the side of warm (auditory/visual interactions at work!). Updated info about chip amp. Removed items that aren't in the system anymore.
3. 5/22/2018. Updated intro section. Changed things that are no longer in the system or sold. Made a large effort to simplify everything, prioritizing the reduction of anything that generates noise or heat. Vinyl system removed. Sutherland phono preamp sold. Rega RP3 traded towards PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell Dac. Extra Blue Jeans cables sold. Isolation transformer sold. CD player sold. Maple rack sold. New pictures of set and DIY amp/dac stand.
4. 5/22/2018. Historical equipment no longer in use in the system.
a. DACs: MHDT Paradisea+. Breeze audio USB to S/PDIF convertor.
b. Phono Preamps: Lounge Audio Mk III LCR, Sutherland Ph3D.
c. Preamp: McCormack TLC-1.
d. Turntables: Sony TTS 3000A with SME Series IIIs tonearm. AT 440MLa cartridge, Ortofon Quintet Blue MC. Rega RP3 with Elys2 and GrooveTracer.
e. Amps: Decware Mini Torii.
f. Racks: Salamander audio rack. Solid maple audio rack.
g. Acoustic treatments: RPG skyline diffusors. RPG BAD ARCs.
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Beautiful system and setup Dan. I know you are getting some excellent sound.
Best,
Ed
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That is great rig you've got. And talk about bang for your buck! Nicely done. :thumb:
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As much as I enjoy you purchasing and implementing treatments, I think the single most important improvement you have garnered from your system is the ability to make measurements in the low frequencies, learn from them, make adjustments and subsequently make improvements to your system because of them. It is a knowledge that you can take with you regardless of where your system goes from now and into the future :thumb:.
Best,
Anand.
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Some Sunday low-cost experimentation. I still struggle with the Vs presenting a stable center image and have been reading the various treads about equipment racks to the side vs. between the speakers. Seems like racks in the middle are especially troublesome when they are as tall as the tweeter. I'm experimenting with putting the amp on the floor. I don't have ICs long enough from my turntable to run on the sidewall of the room, so I am just first experimenting with my DAC next to the amp, where I do have a 15' S/PDIF cable that can feed it.
Pretty non-subtle improvement to the imaging and soundstage. Center image is apparent and soundstage is deeper. Much less confusing aurally to have the rack out from between the speakers.
Who else has tried this?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165588)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165589)
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Lowering the equipment rack to about a foot off the floor made a significant improvement in imaging in my system as well.
Best,
Ed
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Some Sunday low-cost experimentation. I still struggle with the Vs presenting a stable center image and have been reading the various treads about equipment racks to the side vs. between the speakers. Seems like racks in the middle are especially troublesome when they are as tall as the tweeter. I'm experimenting with putting the amp on the floor. I don't have ICs long enough from my turntable to run on the sidewall of the room, so I am just first experimenting with my DAC next to the amp, where I do have a 15' S/PDIF cable that can feed it.
Pretty non-subtle improvement to the imaging and soundstage. Center image is apparent and soundstage is deeper. Much less confusing aurally to have the rack out from between the speakers.
Who else has tired this?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165588)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165589)
My rack is on the side wall, laid the room out from the beginning so I could do it that way. At my beach house I have a dining room table in between my speakers, it is a very small house.
It makes a huge difference not having something in between for sure, I would never go back.
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Beautiful system and room Dan. I see you are using an MHDT DAC as well. I have had a Havana for over 5 years now and have not felt the need to do anything different. It just plays music.
Shakey
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@Shakey -- love my MHDT! I agree with you, it just works and plays music. No thoughts to upgrade other than maybe upgrading the tube at some point from stock.
To those that have moved their rack from out between the speakers: how do you deal with the long ICs? I need at least 15' to get from my amp to the rack following the wall to the left of the speakers (the rack is directly behind me to the left). The Decware amp is not perfect here, since it has two inputs and volume controls. It's prob better to also move the amp to the rack and run both long ICs and long speaker cables, although I would need ~ 25' runs to the right speaker and right A370 amp.
The other option I have considered is putting the gear in the closet behind me (would be a challenge but I could do it) and then running cabling to to the right side of my room outside my room and making an input box in both the closet and on the right wall. That would be fun and clean things up a lot.
Getting some relatively inexpensive long ICs is the first step here. I think that 15' Blue Jeans cables have low enough capacitance to not cause any HF rolloff, plus since the volume controls are on my amp, the signal to the amp's inputs is line level and not attenuated.
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Local CL find today: A McCormack Line Drive TLC-1 preamplifier. This unit has a buffered output and passive outputs, which lets me do two important things:
- Run my Decware amp powering the P.Audio drivers with the fMod 80 Hz HP filters, keeping low frequencies out of the co-ax amp and letting me get a dB more or two out my 4 watt amp.
- Balance the whole system with measurements and then adjust the volume with a single knob.
I still am having an issue with the right HF driver (see my other thread), but I am hoping a diaphragm change will remedy that. The direct out of the preamp also makes my noise floor drop even more.
Also, here are the amp settings of the A370 that gets me +- 5dB from 20 Hz - 100 Hz in my room (updated 4/26/2018):
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179397)
fMod 80 Hz HP filters in place:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165901)
TLC-1:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165902)
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Made some updates to reflect what has happened in the last couple weeks to the system. I picked up a P.I. Audio Group miniBUSS, which I am super excited about.
Also received replacement diaphragms from Loudspeakers Plus, which fixed the issues in the FR between the left and right speakers at 1.8 kHz.
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Current setup as of 4/25/2018. High points:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179357)
* New rack -- Solid maple with 3" thick isolated top. New Turntable (Rega RP3). AR and Sony turntables have been sold. Suspended tables not a great match to my room. Elys2 cartridge. Sutherland Ph3D phono preamp.
* Soliloquy 5.2 speakers are going elsewhere in the living room system once I build some XOs for them.
* Experimented with toe-in and positioning. Ended up with outside corners 20.5" from sidewalls and rear outside corner 35" from rear wall. 0 degree toe-in.
* Removed all the diffusion from the room; no more RPGs.
Current measurement of subwoofers. L, R and L+R. +- 5 dB from 21 Hz or so to 110 Hz. (No smoothing applied).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179356).
Still working through some center image stability issues, but the changes in position have help, especially removing the toe-in and spreading out the speakers a bit more. Measurement of just the L and R co-ax from 200 Hz - 4000 Hz at listening positoning 1/6 octave smoothing.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179358)
Still want/need to get another bass trap to position directly behind my listening chair. Contemplating picking up a pair of freestanding bass traps with scatter plates (GIK) to place between the speakers directly behind my rack.
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I would see if you can borrow some GIK 244’s on the side walls for the 1st reflections as an experiment.
It might work better than the hybrid diffsorber RPG panel.
The desk with chair and peripherals on the right wall may be a source of reflections.
Between the speakers, the GIK Alpha Panels may work well (again, 4 inch thickness).
Don’t neglect the wall behind the MLP. It can be a major source of reflections and can cause FR anomalies throughout the whole spectrum.
Remember your room dimensions are slightly on the smaller side and more square, as such room modes may bunch up more at certain frequencies. SBIR is obviously an issue as it is with nearly all speakers. I realize the speakers are OB, but diffusion treatments are not something I usually talk about in this sized room with the fixed distances that you have between the Super V and the front wall. Your ceiling and floor are the next closest reflection points after your sidewalls.
Throw up a measurement from 1khz to 10khz too if you don’t mind.
And I am really wondering now what your ETC curves between 0-40msec looks like for each speaker. And the decay times from 250 Hz to 4 khz. I am wondering if they are dramatically different from each other hence the image shifting.
Best,
Anand.
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Hi Dan, Ask and you shall receive :thumb:. Also, I was talking about my response below this one being off topic.
Dan, Here's what I have found, first make sure you listen to Anand :thumb:. O.K. that's not what I was going to say but it's true :lol:
Here are a few things that really helped with my center stage. I brought my speakers at least 5' into the room, I realize this may not be possible. I added 6" GIK absorption panels at the first reflection points and installed floor to ceiling corner traps in the front corners. I have my audio rack on the side wall so nothing is in between the speakers. All of these things helped and I now have an amazing center stage. The instruments and voices float in the center of the speakers from the floor to about 7' high or more. My speakers are about 3' off of the side wall and about 5' or so off of the front wall. They are toed in so they are almost facing me. I sit about 10' away and the Super Vs are about 10' apart. You can see my room in my gallery. It is 20' x 30' x 10' so I don't know how any of this would work in your room but thought I would try and help.
Also, I have had my MHDT Havana in this system and really liked it. I also used my Joule Electra LA150MK11SE with my Super Vs and that was very nice as well. Now I have a Lampi Atlantic Plus with VC and currently I'm using a 1200AS2 amp that is kindly being loaned to me. Yes, the midrange does a great job of keeping up with the servo subs with this amp. The sound is fairly warm with the 1200as which surprised me. I've been looking at the Rouge Audio 1200AS2 based amp myself and If I get that sooner than later I would be happy to let you try it.
Greg
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These are individual chirps from the left and right speakers to the listening position (without the subs on), just to try and unpack some of the reflections and what I am hearing.
First I looked at the ETC curves of the L and R speakers. I notice at 12 and 13ms, there is two peaks on the left speaker that seem to stick out from the right. They certainly seem intense enough to be plausibly in the image shift zone at least for certain signals. So looking at some GIK 244s to place at the first reflection points and perhaps behind the rack between the speakers seems to be the next step.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179378)
Frequency response from 1kHz - 10 kHz also attached. Seems pretty reasonable and matched there too.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179379)
BTW, I did order a small desktop SS amp to try out, just to help rule out anything that might be going on in my tube amp. I’ll end up using it to power a small pair of speakers in my office at work, so its money well spent.
Because I am having a hard time describing what I am hearing in my sound stage I tried to draw an image of how I often hear singers in tracks. The start of the phrase being sung is nicely in the middle and has some width to it but into the decay of that phrase the images widens and pulls to the left (i.e. into the reverberant tail). And because its not equally balanced between L and R (i.e. it isn't just a blurring or widening of the image) it feels as though the image is not stable to my ears. Not sure if this makes any more sense, but this picture might..
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179377)
Here is the FR measurements.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179396)
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Dan,
Do you think the shift has to do with what the freq. is of the voice at the time it shifts?
In other words is the sound shifting only at a certain freq. like one speaker is louder at that freq. than the other?
I hope that makes since, it is the only thing I can think of that could be happening.
Additional thought: I just looked at your servo amp settings and one of the freq. nobs is set all the way to the left and the other all the way to the right. Not sure if what you hearing has anything to do with that or not?
Greg
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Dan,
Do you think the shift has to do with what the freq. is of the voice at the time it shifts?
In other words is the sound shifting only at a certain freq. like one speaker is louder at that freq. than the other?
I hope that makes since, it is the only thing I can think of that could be happening.
Additional thought: I just looked at your servo amp settings and one of the freq. nobs is set all the way to the left and the other all the way to the right. Not sure if what you hearing has anything to do with that or not?
Greg
Good catch. There is no way the phase and xover points should not be the same for both speakers.
Shakey
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@Shakey, @Greg --
XO and phase and level were set based on measurements to try and get the flattest bass response in-room taking into account modal behavior.
I worked with @poseidonsvoice extensively on this. Updated A370 amp settings above an also here (4/26/2018):
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179397)
If you look at my subwoofer plot, you can see that there are attemps made to get the aggregate response of the subwoofers as flat as possible. That was only possible in my room by adjust the delay/phase crossover and level controls and ended up with asymmetrical XO slopes electrically to try and match the acoustic response in-room and have proper slopes acoustically. You can also see that they is a big modal dip on the left channel and a peak on the right channel, the resulting trace is pretty flat from just two subwoofers, and ones that are tied to the position of the overall speakers. Perfect world, I'd have four of these in a "swarm" to try and flatten the bass response even more.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179356)
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Dan, I'm wondering if Shakey and Greg are on to something. Based on your last post, I know that the settings you've come up with for the subs is getting the in-room response where you want it to be, but maybe that is primarily in reference to bass or sub-bass frequencies? In this speaker design, if I remember correctly, the subs on each speaker are tasked with playing up into the lower midrange (I think?). Would some of your work to get down low the way you want it be causing an issue at the top end of the frequency range the subs are playing at? The problem area you describe reads to me like it sits just before the subs hand off to the coaxials, meaning whatever you are hearing in this range is primarily coming from the subs.
I know it is probably asking a lot, but for sake of curiosity, you don't happen to have any measurements from before you worked with Anand to tune the system to where you are at now? Did you see the same hiccups with the subs set more like Shakey and Greg are thinking is the way to go? If not, maybe the real solution is to go in on the two more subs you were mentioning above specifically to take care of the bass issues the subs attached to the coaxes can't be tasked with taking care of, because they are really part of the mains? Either that, or again if I'm on the right track, maybe your plan "A" going up/over to one of the -otica designs with the separate subs would be a step in the right direction, as those designs (again if I remember correctly) play the main speakers down lower than the super-v coax, getting the subs out of the problem range and really dedicated in task to sub duty.
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Well d*mn it if that didn't do it. @Jonathon Janusz, @Shakeydeal @gregfisk. Unbelievably frustrating. Set the A370s to what Danny had at RMAF and image is centered. Bass is less smooth for sure. Listening to Veedon Fleece right now and Van is floating in the center between my speakers.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179409)
Not sure where that leaves me? Either way is going to be a compromise.
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Well put some measurements up now of just your LF response and let’s compare and contrast. I can’t tell if you originally had a hole between 100-300 Hz from where the coaxial transitions to the subs on one speaker but less of one on the other. The crossovers are not brick wall filters so a hole is possible which will affect the lower midrange.
And FWIW, I think Jonathan Janusz’s previous post is well worth reading.
Best,
Anand.
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Well d*mn it if that didn't do it. @Jonathon Janusz, @Shakeydeal @gregfisk. Unbelievably frustrating. Set the A370s to what Danny had at RMAF and image is centered. Bass is less smooth for sure. Listening to Veedon Fleece right now and Van is floating in the center between my speakers.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179409)
Not sure where that leaves me? Either way is going to be a compromise.
Definitely take measurements again and see if there is a better compromise - Image still centered and Bass as Flat as you can get it.
Also, OOC - what are the speaker distances? (center of driver to center of driver vs distance to MLP - your photo makes it look close to near field listening.
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Well d*mn it if that didn't do it. @Jonathon Janusz, @Shakeydeal @gregfisk. Unbelievably frustrating. Set the A370s to what Danny had at RMAF and image is centered. Bass is less smooth for sure. Listening to Veedon Fleece right now and Van is floating in the center between my speakers.
Not sure where that leaves me? Either way is going to be a compromise.
:thumb:
Where this leaves you is with a great set of full-range main speakers in need of a couple of subs to even out the bass response. :green: For what it is worth, Danny generally ran (with the settings you note using now) a pair of sealed servo subs in the back of his demo rooms, firing 180 degrees out of phase with the mains, at a noticeably lower volume level, to even out the show room's bass response and add just a little more "weight" to the whole presentation. It is definitely a noticeable improvement over running the same setups with the back subs turned off. Anand's suggestion of getting some new measurements up will help you when you go to dial in your soon-to-be new additional (and in this case true) subwoofers. 8)
Slightly aside, regarding a little of the amp talk earlier in the thread, I've grown to accept that for my tastes and preferences, I really am of the camp that there is no replacement for displacement when it comes to amplifier power. As long as we're talking comparable quality in the amp department, I would absolutely put some big amps behind those coaxials. They may be able to play on a few watts of power, but there is just something magical to me about having a system that can do clean, clear, effortless, uncompressed dynamics, and for that one needs some power to make it happen. Even better in your case, you are playing with a pro coaxial driver that is designed to make the most of that kind of power that just happens to have been built like a really big audiophile driver.
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The phase control should have no effect on the output of the woofers. It is just a time delay control. It allows you to blend them (In time) to the co-axial drivers.
Once that is set then you have to use the other tools to control the amplitude within the range of the woofers.
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So this is the early part of the ETC for the L/R co-axial drivers and L/R subs (old sub settings). What I see is that the arrival time of the sound from the co-axial drivers are at 15.5ms or so whereas the subs arrive later, tough to see the direct sound peak but maybe 20.5ms? So if I am reading this right, I need to move the sub arrival signal ahead in time by about 5ms to arrive blended with the co-axials.
When you turn the delay/phase from 0 to 180, are you increasing the delay? How much delay range are you adding going from 0 to 180? Period of 80 Hz is 12.5ms so would the range be 6.25ms of delay @ 80 Hz? Am I thinking about this right?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179420)
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It seems to me that you are overthinking this thing with measurements and spreadsheets. That's all well and good, but you should be able to dial those in by ear w/o sweating the technicalities. Who cares what a graph looks like if you aren't happy with the end result?
JMHO
Shakey
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Dan, Really glad I could help in some way. Bring your speakers out into the room as far as you can, that made a big difference in my room. Also you can really change the presentation with the toe in.
Also like I and others have mentioned, try a big amp with those coax drivers, they will really come alive for you.
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Dan,
Since the speed of sound is about 1130ft/sec, 5mS of time offset equates to 5.65' of travel distance difference. If you expand the first impulse you will probably find all four peaks overlapped,tweeter, mid, sub 1 and sub 2.
Those other peaks are room reflections
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Thanks @Hal. You are still using those Parasound A23s in your line arrays, correct? That might be another amp to consider for powering the coaxial drivers. There is likely some reason that you picked that A23. I think you have about 10 now, right?
Anyways I received the little 22 watt AudioEngine amp to try out yesterday. For the price, it's pretty nice. Stereo line out, smooth volume control and digital in (S/PDIF, optical and USB), plus a stereo line in and headphone out. Pretty slick. Anyways, its safe to say that the Vs like a bit more power for sure.
Also for whatever reason this amp lets the 12" dig down a little bit deeper, so I am getting a much better blend with the subwoofers.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179453)
Should also be getting a chance to try out a Mivera in my system in the next few weeks, so we will see how that does. I have been looking at Dacs the weekend and now am considering the PS Audio Steller Gain Cell Dac. Assuming I can output both the RCAs and balanced XLRs at the same time, that might be great for my system. I could run balanced to either a A23 or AS1200 and then run the RCAs to the A370 sub amps.
BTW, I ended up toeing the speakers to 15 degrees again, as I like the soundstage better, plus I think the toe lets the rear wave be absorbed a bit into the corner bass traps, which ends up sounds a little bit better in the space.
So on the plan would be to get a DAC, figure out what amp I want, and get some floorstanding bass traps to go behind my listening chair at least. Eventually, I'll also want to add some first reflection panels and another soffit bass trap behind me. Thanks everyone for the thoughts and help.
Plus look, I am finally getting a proper cross over between the subs and the co-axial drivers. Nicely summed through the XO region.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179457)
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Dan,
Yes, I am using 10 Parasound Halo A23 Class AB amps in the line array for mids and tweeters. They are balanced input DC coupled with DC servo controlled outputs for no DC offset and very low output impedance. I love the amps in the setup.
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Dan,
Yes, I am using 10 Parasound Halo A23 Class AB amps in the line array for mids and tweeters. They are balanced input DC coupled with DC servo controlled outputs for no DC offset and very low output impedance. I love the amps in the setup.
Very cool. Thanks for the info. How low do your mids reach? I'd assume pretty close to what the 12" co-axials do, since we are running the same subwoofers (albeit you have 6 a side!). Do you think a A23 would be a good match for the Super V tops?
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Dan,
I ran Pass Labs Aleph 2 monoblocks with the Super-V's and they sounded very good.
Never tried the Parasound A23's with the Super-V's so hard to tell without trying them. Their bigger brothers the JC-1 monoblocks are very good in two other systems locally.
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Updated system pictures. Here is that chip amp I am using:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179531)
Also I forgot about that little Folsom Amp (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156151.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156151.0)) that Danny built a few weeks back. The one in the nice Dodd case. Another option for good pairing with the system.
And these guys are interesting too: http://templeaudio.net/ (http://templeaudio.net/). Their Bantam Gold 25w guy.
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Very cool. Thanks for the info. How low do your mids reach? I'd assume pretty close to what the 12" co-axials do, since we are running the same subwoofers (albeit you have 6 a side!). Do you think a A23 would be a good match for the Super V tops?
In the line arrays, the Neo10's go down to ~150Hz to meet the 6x12" servo subs.
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@sledwards came over this weekend and we had a lot of fun. He brought over his Nord ICE1200AS2-based amp as well as his Mod-86. We used my Mogami XLR cables to hook up my Cambridge DacMagic Plus as well as @poseidonsvoice's D3 Zenwave XLRs (which were a solid step up from the Mogamis). It was incredible how sensitive the Nord and the Mod-86 were to the change in cables. The Mogamis are not bad XLRs, either. But the Zenwaves were something else.
Both the Nord and the Mod-86 sounded really nice in my system and we listened to a number of excellent tracks. Hopefully he will post some listening impressions as well. Before we had our listening session I built a 6" tall amp shelf to house my DAC and the amp while keeping the rack as low as possible to avoid having a tall rack between the speakers. I came up with something like this that was built from 3/4" ply, braced with MDF underneath and painted with Duratex:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179856)
Having a bit more power going to the P-Audio co-axial speakers really allowed the midrange to match the quickness of the servo subs (and to deal with the rising impedance towards the Fs of that driver). Both the Mod-86 and Nord had similar gain and allowed the A370 amps to be turned up to about 75% gain level. Another thing that was nice was just how quiet the system was. Only the faintest hiss could be heard with your ear up to the P-Audio driver in both cases. That is pretty awesome. Also no isolation transformer was need between the Cambridge DAC and the A370 amps. Another improvement and simplification to the system there.
Nord Stack:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179867)
Listening room now:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179868)
The Cambridge Audio is currently acting as my preamplifier with a 16' USB cable being run from my MacPro on the adjacent wall. I need to find a DAC with a remote so I can adjust the volume from my chair. Looking at the RME ADI-2 DAC as well as some of the Benchmark options.
These are some nice cables!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179869)
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Big updates today. I received my PS Audio Gain Cell Dac and currently am working on burning it in.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=180186)
I am still using the Zenwave D3 XLRs to connect the PS Audio Dac to the Mod-86. I also added 5x GIK 244 bass traps. A pair at the first reflection points, a pair behind my speakers (hidden behind my curtains), and a single one behind my listening chair above the soffit bass trap.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=180187)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=180188)
I currently have Dave from P.I. Audio Group making me a cable for the Dac. I am auditioning several ICs. I really like how these Z3s are sounding in the system.
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If you don't already have one, consider talking to dave about an Uber/Mini Buss, well worth the expense .
Congrats on the Mod86 purchase :beer:
jay
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Thanks, Jay!
I have one of Dave's MiniBusses with a P.I. Audio powercon cord that goes to the outlet. I love it! As much as I like my TWL powercords, I really do like Dave's cords and busses. My Brother has an Uber and he loves it. I'd like to upgrade the mini to an Uber in the future and move the Mini to my computer system to the right of the main system.
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or, get dave to build youa hardwired Uber, no receptacles. One cord to wall, one with IEC to mini buss.
Just a thought :)
jay
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Not a bad idea at all. I could do a PowerCon in and out and then using my existing PC from PI to go from the outlet to the Uber and then have Dave make me a little PowerCon to PowerCon jumper to go from the Uber to the Mini.
I updated the intro post to reflect the current state of the system. Ended up adding the Zenwave D3 XLRs to the system. Really happy with their performance.
Current FR after adding the PS Audio, additional bass traps and XLRs.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=180359)
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=180565)
My P.I. Audio Group power cable for the PS Audio Gain Cell DAC came yesterday and I am working on breaking that in. I used the EQ function on the A370 amps to tame the peak at 43 Hz, which isn't going to be fixed by adding more traps because it's so low in frequency. The PEQ works well for this and flattens it right out.
Above is the L+R channel with and without the PEQ engaged.
I'd still like to eventually get a GR servo sub (a sealed one) positioned out-of-phase behind my PLM. I suspect this will help to "remove the back wall" since I don't have the luxury to sit too far away from the back wall and can't put diffusion there as I would normally do in a room to tame the rear-wall reflections.
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Keep in mind when trying to even out the response to just look at one speaker at a time. If you play both of them at the same time then you can get peaks and dips caused by the time arrival differences of the two speakers and their room reflections.
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Keep in mind when trying to even out the response to just look at one speaker at a time. If you play both of them at the same time then you can get peaks and dips caused by the time arrival differences of the two speakers and their room reflections.
Yes, Danny, good point. The plot above was just the combined to show the effect, but I set the PEQ for each A370 independently to flatten each channel first and then also measured together.
BTW, removing the MacPro from my room has drastically reduced the noise floor (and amount of heat generated). I'm down to about 35.5 dB(A) and NC 32, which is pretty quiet. I don't have measurements from before removing the tube amp, adding the Mod-86 (going balanced), removing the noisy sub outs of tube amp and removing all the fans, but I figure close to a 6-8 dB drop in the noise floor.
Now I can hear the following:
* spinning hard drives (SSD boot drive, but 2 HDD backup drives, which can be heard if they are spun up). I've moved all my loseless music to a SD card, which is plugged into the Mac Mini, it is silent).
* Slightest transformer hum from each A370 amp.
* Some hum 60/120/180 components from the servo subs (acoustic, not electric).
* Slight hiss from co-ax.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=180725)
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@Shakey, @Greg --
XO and phase and level were set based on measurements to try and get the flattest bass response in-room taking into account modal behavior.
I worked with @poseidonsvoice extensively on this. Updated A370 amp settings above an also here (4/26/2018):
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179397)
so I just bought a pair of these and finally getting to a point of hooking them up. Looking at the picture do I only hook up the line in to my preamp? What about the speaker connector section of the Super V's? Sorry I have not had a pair like this and trying to figure out the hook up scenario.
If you look at my subwoofer plot, you can see that there are attemps made to get the aggregate response of the subwoofers as flat as possible. That was only possible in my room by adjust the delay/phase crossover and level controls and ended up with asymmetrical XO slopes electrically to try and match the acoustic response in-room and have proper slopes acoustically. You can also see that they is a big modal dip on the left channel and a peak on the right channel, the resulting trace is pretty flat from just two subwoofers, and ones that are tied to the position of the overall speakers. Perfect world, I'd have four of these in a "swarm" to try and flatten the bass response even more.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179356)
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You can use either the low/line level (RCA) or the high/speaker level (binding posts) inputs. Which one you choose depends on whether you use an inline filter to keep the first octave (20-40Hz) signals away from the midrange driver.
If you do not use a filter you can connect the sub amp using either the low level input connected to the preamp by RCA interconnects or you can bi-wire from the power amp binding posts to the sub amp binding post. Another approach would be to run one pair of speaker cables from the power amp to the Super Vs then connect a second pair of speaker cables from the Super V binding posts to the sub amp binding posts. This uses less speaker wire but I don't know if the additional length of speaker wire to the sub amp would be enough to cause any phase shift. There is one big WARNING with this approach. You have to Bi-Wire, both pairs of speaker wire to the same pair of binding posts (unless you power amp happens to have two pair of binding posts that are connected in parallel). Whatever you do, do not bi-amp. I made this mistake once and blew up my amp.
If you do use an in-line filter to roll off the low end to the midrange driver, you have to use the low/line level inputs on the sub amp connected via RCA to the preamp. Since you are limiting the low frequencies to the power amp, there won't be any low end signal at the speaker binding posts to send to the sub. An added benefit of this approach is that since the power amp doesen't have to deal with low frequencies, you an use a lower powered amp for the midrange and highs.
Mike
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You can use either the low/line level (RCA) or the high/speaker level (binding posts) inputs. Which one you choose depends on whether you use an inline filter to keep the first octave (20-40Hz) signals away from the midrange driver.
If you do not use a filter you can connect the sub amp using either the low level input connected to the preamp by RCA interconnects or you can bi-wire from the power amp binding posts to the sub amp binding post. Another approach would be to run one pair of speaker cables from the power amp to the Super Vs then connect a second pair of speaker cables from the Super V binding posts to the sub amp binding posts. This uses less speaker wire but I don't know if the additional length of speaker wire to the sub amp would be enough to cause any phase shift. There is one big WARNING with this approach. You have to Bi-Wire, both pairs of speaker wire to the same pair of binding posts (unless you power amp happens to have two pair of binding posts that are connected in parallel). Whatever you do, do not bi-amp. I made this mistake once and blew up my amp.
If you do use an in-line filter to roll off the low end to the midrange driver, you have to use the low/line level inputs on the sub amp connected via RCA to the preamp. Since you are limiting the low frequencies to the power amp, there won't be any low end signal at the speaker binding posts to send to the sub. An added benefit of this approach is that since the power amp doesen't have to deal with low frequencies, you an use a lower powered amp for the midrange and highs.
Mike
ok so I do not have a inline filter to my knowledge. So Here is where I guess I am getting stuck. I hooked up the rca to the low level input and put that into the anthem processor I have ..I assume maybe I am wrong this goes to the left front or right front channel of my preamp? I then connected speaker to the post of the subamp as shown then to my amp... I hope the picture can give a better description... clearly I am missing something here and do not want to damage anything before proceeding...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=186394)
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You should be able to just run from your pre-amp (variable out) to the amp and low level inputs of the sub amps . If you don't have 2 sets of variable outs on the pre, just use an rca Y harness for each channel.
Obviously send the signal from the right pre out to the right sub amp, left pre out to left sub amp. You only need populate one low level input on each sub amp ( I think the left has the auto on trigger)). If you populate both inputs (same channel split itno 2 cables) you'll get an extra 6 db of gain out of the amps.
You won't ned the high level inputs
jay
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And you really don't need a line filter either @dlynch34. As Danny explained to me (and the reason I had so much trourble with my 2.5watt tube amp and am so much happier with the performance of the system with the Mod-86 amp). The mid-bass co-axial driver's impedance rises rapidly at it's Fs, so it never sees much if any power. It's a built in protection mechanism and doesn't need a line-level filter (adding one won't hurt).
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ok so I do not have a inline filter to my knowledge. So Here is where I guess I am getting stuck. I hooked up the rca to the low level input and put that into the anthem processor I have ..I assume maybe I am wrong this goes to the left front or right front channel of my preamp? I then connected speaker to the post of the subamp as shown then to my amp... I hope the picture can give a better description... clearly I am missing something here and do not want to damage anything before proceeding...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=186394)
That setup on the sub amp box is different than the way my Subs are wired.
What are the speaker cables that are plugged into the tube connectors at the bottom of the A370 amp box plugged into at the other end of the speaker cable?
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I am all good now thanks everyone. I got some Y splitters to resolve the issue. Now I need to configure my subs to be included for movies.. :)
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I am all good now thanks everyone. I got some Y splitters to resolve the issue. Now I need to configure my subs to be included for movies.. :)
For that you really want a subwoofer designed for home theater use, either sealed or ported. I’ve had issues in the past with open baffle subs connected to the subwoofer (LFE) output of an HT receiver. Some of the special effects would cause the drivers to bottom out. To prevent that, I added a sealed sub to the system and connected it to the HT receiver’s subwoofer output.
To clarify, I am using two 8ohm drivers. This gives me a 4ohm load for the speakers and allows me to use the full power of the A370 amp. If your Vs have two 16ohm drivers you may not experience the problem I did since you would be presenting an 8ohm load to the amp. This would limit the power from the amp and could prevent the bottoming out.
I have connected both main and sub channels to the same subwoofer in the past but the amp was an A370PEQ3 instead of the A370PEQ. The difference is that the PEQ3 has two sets of line level inputs. The PEQ has one set of line level inputs and one set of outputs.
My advice is get a sealed sub that is designed for HT use. When I first had the problem I asked Brian Ding of Rythmik about it. He told me the OB subs were designed for music while the sealed or ported subs were designed for HT. Using the proper tool for each job will give the best results.
Mike
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I am all good now thanks everyone. I got some Y splitters to resolve the issue. Now I need to configure my subs to be included for movies.. :)
:thumb: :thumb:
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:thumb: :thumb:
I actually have a sealed sub that I want to use for movies and just the Super Vs for music. My question is what is the recommended crossover setting for the Vs when I have it in movie mode with my sealed sub?
Thanks
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I actually have a sealed sub that I want to use for movies and just the Super Vs for music. My question is what is the recommended crossover setting for the Vs when I have it in movie mode with my sealed sub?
Thanks
I let mine run full range then set the sub to LFE only
Mike
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I added a new picture of the current set up after adding in two GIK QRD diffusers behind the Vs and a additional bass trap behind the listening position.
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I played around with positioning today after reading Lynn Olson’s article on ideal speaker positioning. Basically, I decided to bring the speakers into a 6’ equilateral triangle and toed them in much more such that they crossed about a foot in front of my MLP.
Originally I had these about 8’ apart. So I moved them each in about a foot. Sub amps were tweaked a bit as well. I need to do more listening but it’s an improvement. One of my biggest challenges with the Vs is their phasey central image. This helps a great deal. Plus I still have imaging outside the speakers.
This also seems to address some issues with a 370hz peak I have in my room and extends the response up to 20kHz.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=188311)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=188312)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=188320)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=188321)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=188322)