AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Empirical Audio => Topic started by: lonewolfny42 on 2 May 2004, 08:58 pm
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In my search for a DAC , and on the suggestion of Marbles,and thanks to Steve, I've received the Empirical Audio Home Audition Pack on Wed., 4/28. It consists of a Turbo Modded P-3A dac, a Turbo Modded Sony DVP-S7700 player , a pair of EA interconnects , and one EA digital cable.
I've not had time to fully intergrate units into my system.... till today. This will be a head to head match up.[/list:u]My base system will be...Krell KSA-100mkII amp(SS) , Philly Audio 7A preamp(Tubes), Shamrock Audio Keelin's (2 way) and Mirage M-3 (3 way) speakers(alternating). Speaker cable is Ridge Street Audio Midnight Silver Ed. II.[/list:u]On the Philly Audio preamp...input #1...EA Turbo P-3A dac and EA Turbo 7700 , as transport. With EA IC's and Digital cable.[/list:u]On the Philly Audio preamp...input #2.... Electrocompaniet ECD-1 dac(stock) and Sony 7700 (stock), as transport. With RSA IC's and Digital cable (Midnight Silver Ed. II).[/list:u]I thought that this would be the best way to test...same base system...and just a flick of the switch changes from one set to the other. And now for some music....I will update as I go along...and even switch a few things around...but thats later. Thanks !! :dance: [/list:u]
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Chris,
That setup is easy to switch back and forth on, but since you are using different ic's how do you know what is the gear and what is the ic's?
I guess let things run for a few days and see how close the "stock" system is to Steve's.
Thanks again for doing this comparison.
George
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That is a pretty good, almost ideal comparison. The EC is suppose to be a lot like the P3A, atleast in the chips and DACs, of course we all know how little that can matter. Love to hear you thoughts. Heck, wish I was over there instead of here studying Financial Statement Analysis.
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Josh,
I own the ECD-1 and I have owned the Modwright Level II P3-A as well as a stock one. Although they do use thre same chipset, they sounded more different than the same in my system. Should be interesting to see if Chris comes to the same conclusion...
Steve at Empirical says the P3-A will be more dynamic and upfront, while the ECD-1 will be a little warmer and lusher.
Both are excellent dacs and I firmly believe it will just come down to preference and system matching.
George
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Chris,
That setup is easy to switch back and forth on, but since you are using different ic's how do you know what is the gear and what is the ic's?
I guess let things run for a few days and see how close the "stock" system is to Steve's.
Thanks again for doing this comparison.
George
Good question ! I begin as I stated. Then, test #2...MOD > MOD > RSA cables... vs... Stock > Stock > EA cables.[/list:u]Then test #3.....Mod P-3A > Stock 7700 > EA cables....vs....ECD-1 > Mod 7700 > RSA cables.[/list:u]And for fun....test # 4....Mod 7700 > EA cables....vs....Stock 7700 > RSA cables. That should cover things pretty much. 8) [/list:u]
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How's the testing coming? Any comments so far?
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How's the testing coming? Any comments so far?
Can you hear me now ?......can you hear me now ?....Oh, Marbles,...still checking things out....this testing can be hard work, good day Sunday and Monday. Lots of cd's auditioned, jazz and classical. Very close in comparison (test #1)....but I like what I hear. Still more to go. And I've got a stock P-3A coming in a few days.Marble's , if you don't mind, when I finish with this demo, I'd like to send you my ECD-1...so you might compare the two dac's. Let me know if your up for it. ...Loanwolf :) [/list:u]There is a test that both the stock 7700 and the Turbo 7700 did not pass. Tracking on a slightly scratched disc (The Firebird - Telarc ). Both players skipped. But... It did play on my older Phillips CD-80 player with no problem. :) [/list:u]
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Chris,
Are you still hearing the stock Sony/ECD-1 is close in sound to full TurboMod setup?
If so, that is quite disappointing and good at that the same time. 8)
At least I know not to spend more money getting my ECD-1 upgraded.
George
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Out of curiousity, what kind of room treatments do you have, lonewolf? I noticed your setup is in a 12'x12'x8' room. :o
Also, have you done any direct comparisons of just the transports, DAC's, and interconnects? TIA!
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Out of curiousity, what kind of room treatments do you have, lonewolf? I noticed your setup is in a 12'x12'x8' room. :o
Also, have you done any direct comparisons of just the transports, DAC's, and interconnects? TIA!
As for treatments...I have an 8th. Nerve floor stander that I use in a doorway/enterance...besides that ...none. Long drapes on side walls and bookcases and record/cd shelves on rear and front. Heavy carpeting on floor, and furniture in room....this room is quiet....not lively at all.As for compairing things...never ending. I'm in buy, try...and still hold mode :? . Now own 4 transports , 3 pre-amps , 4 pairs of speakers , 2 amps , 4 dac's , 2 cassette decks and 1 TT. As for cables....too many...in fact there is a package of 8 different cables (ic's,digital,sc) thats on it's way to member Rocket/Rod to try out. He's in Austraila.[/list:u]Hope this answer's your question. :) [/list:u]Edit....forgot the two 8 Track players (one is a recorder....got any blank 8 tracks... :lol: )
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LonewolfNY - the acoustics question is a very revelent one. I just recently moved into my new studio and experienced everything from boomy bass to out-of-focus to lack of dynamics. After putting 6 bass traps in exactly the right places and adjusting the distances and toe-in, the magic is back. This is how critical this is. If I even move one trap 1", it mucks it up.
Do you have anything between the speakers or between them back further to the wall?
What is the distance the speakers are off the back wall?
Are they equal distance from the side walls?
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Steve,
Chris is shipping me your P3-A so I will be trying it in my system vs. my stock ECD-1.
I will receive the unit tomorrow so look for some feedback by the end of the weekend.
As you can see from this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=9596.msg86612#86612
I have spent a good amount of time/money working on room acoustics.
George
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In your room, that red color is pretty cool, but that salmon color has to go :P
(https://cflorez.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/fish175.jpg)
That reminds me of the comic that gives out T-shirts with the "Eat salmon - the other pink meat!" logo on them
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LonewolfNY - the acoustics question is a very revelent one.
Do you have anything between the speakers or between them back further to the wall?
What is the distance the speakers are off the back wall?
Are they equal distance from the side walls?
Hello Steve,My speakers are 3 feet from back wall and 3 feet from the sides of the room. There's 6 feet between the speakers. I sit 8 feet from the speakers. The speakers are forward, between them "but" against the wall is my audio rack. Nothing is blocking between the speakers. On one side of room(left) is a rack with lps and cds. On the wall behind where I sit are three shelves, left and right, 5 feet long containing books, cds , lps. They begin at 4 feet above the floor and go to the ceiling. In the left corner is a desk, chair , computer. In the right corner is an end table. On the ceiling is acoustic tiles and a ceiling fan. The walls are pine stained in cherry finish.....I feel like I'm in a log cabin :lol: . But I would describe the sound as quiet and not lively at all compare to the other rooms in my house. I use the floor stander in the doorway that leads into the room, opposite of where the speakers are.[/list:u]I realize my room is compact but it is very comfortable and I enjoy the sound I get from my system.[/list:u]I knew that zybar/George has some similar equipement to mine, hi-watt SS amp and ECD-1 dac. And since he was interested in how the Turbo P-3A sounded, I thought two reviews would be better than one. The P-3A will arrive at his home tomorrow afternoon so he can audition it for a few days. Then it will come back to me for a final audition. I also have a stock P-3A arriving very soon. I'll compare and then review. And I understand that I am fully responsible for all equipement on loan and in my possession....just to let you know.[/list:u]And after I finish the audition, I intend to ship my ECD-1 to Marble's so he can compare his Turbo P-3A to the ECD-1>>(Marble's PM me your address for shipping)<<. So we will windup with three reviews comparing dac's on three different systems in three different sized rooms. And all with the Turbomod 7700 and one stock 7700 as transport. Sort of like killing three birds with one stone. :o [/list:u]While the Turbo P-3A is gone , I'll compare the Turbo 7700 to stock 7700, both as stand alone player and transport. Thanks !! :) [/list:u]
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LonewolfNY - one thing that I did notice with my new setup is this:
If there is nothing between the speakers back to the the back wall, then the dynamics and HF extension are compromised. I actually need something between the speakers, but back behind the plane of their backsides to get the focus, dynamics and HF extension.
I'll try to draw a picture:
--------------------back wall
..........T
.T.................T
S...................S
T- Tube trap
S - speaker
. - ignore
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And after I finish the audition, I intend to ship my ECD-1 to Marble's so he can compare his Turbo P-3A to the ECD-1>>(...
Thank you for that generous gesture and offer.
I'm going to decline however due to a severe case of comparison burnoutitis.
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Ok, the Empirical P3-A arrived safe and sound - thank you Chris! :thumb:
Here is the config it will be in:
Empirical S7700 w/ Jensen Caps -> Argent Audio Pursang Digital IC-> Empirical P3-A -> Argent Audio Pursang IC's -> Electrocompaniet EC 4.7 Preamp -> Argent Audio Pursang XLR -> Rowland 201's -> Argent Audio Pursang cable (mids/highs) and Sonoran Plateau cable (lows) -> VMPS RM 40's w/ FST, TRT, and Analysis Plus
To get it back to my normal setup, just substitute the Electrocompaniet ECD-1 for the P3-A and an Argent Audio Pursang XLR for the single-ended version.
George
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[/quote]
Thank you for that generous gesture and offer.
I'm going to decline however due to a severe case of comparison burnoutitis.[/quote] ....Marbles, You should see a doctor and get that fixed..... :? . If you change your mind....let me know. Loanwolf :)
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Just to update this thread...zybar/George has finished auditioning the EA Turbomod P-3A in his system. It will arrive back here tomorrow. I have a few more days to finish my listening session with the EA P-3A and EA 7700. During the time it was out of my system, I compared the stock 7700 vs the EA 7700. And I also have on hand a stock P-3A, which has been burning in for a few days.
George, whenever you want, you can post your comments.Thanks for comparing it in your system!! I will post mine at the end of my audition period. :) [/list:u]
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First off, thanks again to Chris for letting my listen to the EA P3-A dac.
For doing the comparisons I used the following music which I know very, very well:
Rusted Root - When I Woke
Tori Amos - Boys for Pele
Harry Connick Jr. - She
Ben Harper - Fight for your Mind
Uncle Tupelo - 83/93 Anthology
Natalie Merchant - Tigerliliy
Holst - The Planets
Vivladi - Four Seasons
Well unfortunately the EA P3-A didn't have the same magic in my system as the EA S-7700 transport (which I own) did.
I directly compared the EA P3-A to my stock Electrocompaniet ECD-1. I believe both of these units use the same chipset and I was expecting pretty similar sound.
Well, that's not how it worked out. The EA P3-A actually sounded less dynamic and extended than the ECD-1 in my system. Drums didn't have the snap and attack I was used to hearing. Cymbals sounded blunted and I had to strain to hear certain details that I am used to hearing (such as being able to clearly distinguish the beans inside a gourd). This was with me using the rca version of the Argent Audio Pursang for both. I also found myself less interested in listening to music with the EA P3-A in the system (sorry Steve).
One thing that was very clear to me is that the ECD-1 is even better when used with xlr outputs to the preamp (I will post more details on this over in two channel audio forum).
This is how things sound to my ears, in my system - YMMV.
I suggest you take advantage of Steve's audition period and judge for yourself in your own system.
George
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George,
Very interesting about the dynamics. I guess I will have to try and hear the ECD-1. I already have plans to hear the latest Birdland. Was this with the Electrocompaniet preamp in your system, or did the Placette go back in (I can not recall if you already sold yours or not)?
With regards to the highs, detail, and musicality, did you try re-tuning your RM40's, or was this based on the settings with the ECD-1 in your system?
As far as musicality, I can certainly understand this. I have heard many players and DAC's that could be subjectively called more musical, and can draw you more into the music - but they tend to have a little "seasoning" through some added sweetness or warmth, in my experience. This can of course be a huge plus depending on your system or preferences.
Thanks in advance for any answers you can provide, and for your impressions!
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Sa-Dono,
All tests were with the EC 4.7, not with the Placette. I didn't re-adjust the 40's (yes, that makes it a non-perfect test - but I was only going to go so far - especially with what I was hearing).
The goal of my audition was to try and see what differences I could hear between my stock ECD-1 and Steve's P3-A. If I thought there was a good deal of improvement, I would have Steve modify my ECD-1 when funds allowed. Since my whole system is balanced, there was never any thought of going the P3-A route since it is only single ended.
I have listened to the Birdland and didn't prefer it over the ECD-1 (maybe I just really, really like the sound it produces?). I thought it was a little too dry and etched for my tastes.
Believe me, it hurt not being positive about something Steve built (he is a great guy and I love my S-7700). But in the end, I felt I had to post even though it was negative.
George
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George,
Thank you for taking the time and effort to listen to the modded P3a and for your honest opinion of it.
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Sa-Dono,
All tests were with the EC 4.7, not with the Placette. I didn't re-adjust the 40's (yes, that makes it a non-perfect test - but I was only going to go so far - especially with what I was hearing).
The goal of my audition was to try and see what differences I could hear between my stock ECD-1 and Steve's P3-A. If I thought there was a good deal of improvement, I would have Steve modify my ECD-1 when funds allowed. Since my whole system is balanced, there was never any thought of going the P3-A route since it is only single ended.
I have listened to the Birdland and didn't prefer it over the ECD-1 (maybe I just really, really like the sound it produces?). I thought it was a little too dry and etched for my tastes.
Believe me, it hurt not being positive about something Steve built (he is a great guy and I love my S-7700). But in the end, I felt I had to post even though it was negative.
George
No worries George. It is all about honesty. There will always be different systems and tastes, and it is all about finding what works best in your system. :D
As far as the Birdland, did you hear the Odéon-Ag (1st or 2nd revision?), or have you heard the new Odéon-Pt? I am planning on hearing the new Odéon-Pt, which I am told is much improved...so all bets are off with comparisons to the Ag. :mrgreen: Even then, who knows, the ECD-1 just may be the bee's knees to you.
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It was the lastest version of the AG (unless a newer version has been launced in the last few months).
I brought this to Febraury NY Audio Rave gathering (as well as trying it in my system). At the gathering it didn't stay in the rotation very long (for the reasons I mentioned).
BTW, do you know how much the Birdland PT will retail for? It sure looks sweet!
George
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BTW, do you know how much the Birdland PT will retail for? It sure looks sweet!
I am unsure right now, but will find out when I audition the unit, hopefully later this week.
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As I begin tonite to pack up the Empirical Audio gear for shipping , ending my three week home audition, I'd like to say "thanks" to Steve Nugent for making this package available. It was a pleasure. :D
And thanks go out to zybar/George for his one week of testing the equipement in his system. :beer: [/list:u]I will share my comments and results in a day or two. I'll write it up, then type it in. I did put a lot of late nite listening into this audition (seems people notice I'm up late :P ), testing various configurations, and playing a ton of cd's. All in all , it was fun and very informative on my end. There's nothing like a home audition to find out if something really works ! :) [/list:u]
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These are my comments and results of the three week audition I just finished with the Empirical Audio equipement. One week was given over to zybar/George to listen to the EA Turbomod P-3A.There will be no tech comments because,....I'm not a tech kind of person :lol: ....My comments will focus on whether I liked the sound of the equipement. And the sound I'm looking for is a detailed , full sound. I enjoy good imageing and a full soundstage.(Music was played at a 85db to 92db level, thats what the Rat Shack meter stated).
I first compared the stock Sony 7700DVD player to the EA Turbomod 7700DVD. No contest, the stock player was flat sounding....dull. Hard to believe for a piece that went for over a grand new. The Turbo mod 7700 had life to it, bass very good, heard more details into the music. IMO , a very worthwhile upgrade !![/list:u]Next test, using the stock PT P-3A vs the EA Turbomod P-3A.The stock P-3A was paired with the stock 7700. Better sounding than just the 7700, but very bright. The EA Turbo P-3A and the EA turbo 7700 on the other hand, sounded excellent. I heard so much detail....real music. Everything opened up more. A winner ![/list:u]Now it gets interesting. Into the mix we bring the Electrocompaniet ECD-1 dac. This is my main dac now. Had it matched with the stock 7700 DVD. It sounded too mellow....nice...but soft sounding. I paired it up with the EA Turbomod 7700, and all of a sudden, it was a different dac. No longer the mellow fellow, it came alive. Details, soundstage, bass, depth, image...all improved. Now it was to compare the ECD-1 and the EA Turbomod p-3A, using the EA Turbomod 7700 as transport for both. Well, let me tell you, I switched back and forth and back and forth for about five days straight, with all sorts of music. [/list:u]The result...its a draw.... :nono: but using the EA Turbomod 7700 as transport only. The "stock 7700" with the ECD-1 did not sound as good as the EA Turbomod 7700 and P-3A.If I were in the market now for both a transport and dac, the EA combo is a winner! At least in my system.[/list:u]Since I own the ECD-1 and a stock 7700, I will be sending Steve my stock 7700 for the full mod. With that transport , I will equal the sound of the Turbo P-3A in my system....YMMV.[/list:u]I did not really run a test of EA's cables to my Ridge Street cables...as far as I could hear they were on even footing.[/list:u]I would say that any members seeking a very good trans/dac combo, get an audition of Empirical Audio's Turbo 7700 and P-3A. The only way to know if its right for you is to try it in your system. Thanks again Steve for making this audition possible ! :)
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Thanks Chris. I was really expecting the Electro DAC to be similar to their CDP, the EMC-1. Evidently the DAC is much better than the CDP. There is a lot of improvement possible with the EMC-1. This is good to know. Now if I could just get someone to send me an Electro DAC to mod....
BTW - I am experimenting this weekend with a Superclock2 in one of my Sony 7700's. So far, no improvement, but I am still tweaking. The 12V power supply in the 7700 seems to be a weakness.
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Steve,
I was going to send you my ECD-1, but now I think it would be too much of a risk. Since I preferred the sound of the ECD-1 to your P3-A, I am not confident that there would be improvments or that they would be worth the cost.
According to Electrocompaniet, the ECD-1 dac is exactly the same one as used in their cd player.
I still love your transport and might have it upgraded to the latest and greatest down the road. I think I will wait till you make a few more changes to make it worth the trip across the country and back.
george
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Thanks Chris. I was really expecting the Electro DAC to be similar to their CDP, the EMC-1. Evidently the DAC is much better than the CDP. There is a lot of improvement possible with the EMC-1. This is good to know. Now if I could just get someone to send me an Electro DAC to mod....
Hi Steve,...If my ECD-1 we're the ginny pig for your experiment mod.....can I get a discount ?? :? ...( that's the ny part in me :lol: )
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Chris - the first one modded ALWAYS gets a discount. The first ZR1600 I modded was only 2/3 the final mod price for instance. The first Electrocompaniet EMC-1 was only $1100 and the mod price is $1400. I'll be fair.