Cables & interconnects

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BrianM

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Cables & interconnects
« on: 15 Sep 2006, 01:37 pm »
I realize this "controversial" topic is always ongoing and far from new, and I've gathered that a certain manufacturer's stance on fancy cables is basically don't waste your money. Fair enough, but I'd never considered it from the angle just articulated in the amp thread, that cables will actually change how your components operate, as opposed to sounding different in and of themselves, or as FVA put it "the effect of how much the load that cable represents changes the linearity of the equipment it is attached to."

Maybe that's unpardonable naivete on my part; not being an engineer I guess I'd always assumed a cable was a more or less passive, pass-through entity, the differences between cables being how good or bad they were at transmitting data. Or something.

Which begs the question, how do we know if our (fancy) cables are harming the linearity (whatever that is, I assume linearity is good) of our equipment? Or, which cables should I be using when I have components by 4 different manufacturers. What cables does FVA use for his stuff? Do fancier cables simply not make a difference, or can they actually make things worse? I bought relatively expensive cables way back because the guy at the (respected, venerable) audio store said that's usually what you do when you get nice stuff, cash permitting. (There was even a formula for how much to spend, based on what you'd paid for your components!) Now I didn't compare one brand of cable to another, figuring that that way madness lay, and figuring once you'd gotten something of quality, the differences between different quality brands would be too slight to bother.

BrianM

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Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #1 on: 15 Sep 2006, 02:48 pm »
Will a better AC line cord let my Krups make better coffee?  get a high end blender cord for my Vita-Mix?   How do the electrons know they are doing audio or making coffee?  Or making PULP out of an apple or orange?

Your point's taken, but this would seem to be conflating separate issues. Electrons aren't "making coffee"; coffee gets made when boiling water passes through grounds. We know water doesn't care about the "quality" of the electricity bringing it to boil, as long as it gets hot enough. How the coffee tastes is a matter of the mechanical functioning of the coffee maker and the quality/freshness of the beans. None of that has much to do with electrons; but it would seem they're somewhat more directly involved in what we hear from our audio equipment. Electrons don't carry our coffee to us, but they do carry sound to us, as it were.

Zheeeem

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Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #2 on: 15 Sep 2006, 03:41 pm »
Uh.  Well don't use high capacitance cables to connect your apogee scintillas to a load sensitive amp.

A couple of considerations I bear in mind.

1.  Since non-equivalent wires will have different RCL values they may indeed "sound different" in a circuit if inserting these values in a circuit can have an effect on one or more active component.

2.  If you don't know exactly how a load affects the performance of your electronics, it will be difficult (i.e., completely impossible) to predict how a given wire will affect the sound.

3.  Equipment load sensitivity beyond the parameters of good design is, uhhhhh, bad design.

4.  If you have load insensitive electronics, switching wires will have vanishingly little effect on sound; if you have load sensitive electronics wires may affect the sound but it will be nearly impossible to predict whether the effect is "good" or "bad".

One of the reasons I selected AVA electronics is that it is very load insensitive.  All other things being equal, I feel that is a good design attribute.  This is not to say that there is some "synergistic" system out there with load sensitive electronics patched together with just the right wires to bring out its best features.  Heck, maybe that sensitive system really is the best in existence.  But with the vast selection of gear out there the chances of randomly arriving at the right "synergy" is close to impossible.  (And yes, of course, there is stable equipment out their other than AVA.)

I don't know if I was cynical before I became a scientist, or became cynical after.  But I am exceedingly cynical about anything other than RCL having an audible influence wrt wires.

BrianM

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Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #3 on: 15 Sep 2006, 04:14 pm »
:roll: Okay, well, as someone who relies on basic concepts that anyone could grasp, as opposed to acronyms and techspeak (God forbid you didn't talk over a guy's head, people), the basic concept I'm taking away is, in order to save yourself potential headaches, make sure you have "load insensitive" components, of which AVA products are one example. Something tells me determining whether my other stuff meets that criterion is more than a Google search away. Are my cables "high capacitance"? F__ if I know, but I'll look into it. They have fancy little boxes on them, I believe they're called "networks". More hocus pocus, no doubt. Well, at any rate my stereo sounds good, so at worst I'm just out some money, which is lots of water under the bridge by now.

Sonny

Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #4 on: 15 Sep 2006, 04:22 pm »
All this talk about cables!!!

Well, I do believe that cables do make a difference.  Now whether we are talking about $50/meter cables or $1000/meter per cable, it's up to each of us to decide what to spend, if we got the bucks, right? 
Just think of it, you cd/sacd player or TT can be the best thing in the world, extracting all the minute details from the recording, then to get it to your preamp then to your amp and speakers, you have a cable that does or isn't able to transfer all the signal, but even muddles them up or takes only a certain amount of the signal.  Well then, the only thing you'll hear is whatever you cables are able to relay to the pre, etc... 

I always believe in spending a bit of your money on cables, but I would not believe in all the hype out there, especially the $$$1000/meter cables...  I am sure these are better than my Groneberg cables, but at 10 times the price!  I doubt that they are ten times as revealing or as detailed, but we all have a price to pay and a budget to work with...

Get cables that are shielded, I think these will cut down on the external noise factor that can be picked up by unshielded cables, trust me, I know... hum and RF is a pain to listen to!

My 2 cents!

BrianM

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Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #5 on: 15 Sep 2006, 04:34 pm »
Grist for the mill, from the website of my brand of cables (Transparent Audio):

Flat cables with parallel members typically have the highest propagation speeds and the widest bandwidth with some of them passing signals freely into the gigahertz region. Coaxial cables are also relatively high propagation speed, wide bandwidth designs. Flat and coaxial cables are the designs of choice for digital and radio frequency transmission. When these extremely wide band cables are used for audio applications, however, they are particularly subject to noise infiltration along the entire length of the cable, much like an antenna.

The standard ways to approach noise infiltration are through shielding and twisted pair technology, both of which limit cable bandwidth to an extent. Good shielding will reduce electrostatic (ES) noise infiltration. A twisted + and - pair will theoretically prevent electromagnetic (EM) noise infiltration by nulling out these noise frequencies. Cables that employ these geometries will still pass signals freely into the 100 megahertz region and beyond, however, which is far more bandwidth than what is required for audio applications.

In reality, however, twisted pair technology only goes part of the way toward canceling out EM noise because the proximity of the twisted + and - pair is never identical over the whole length of the cable regardless of how carefully the cable is manufactured.

To reduce EM noise beyond what can be achieved through twisted pair technology requires a properly designed network fitted to the specific application and the length and type of cable. Transparent interconnects are well shielded and both speaker cables and interconnects have twisted pair technology. Our networks clean up any residual EM noise not addressed by twisted pair technology by reducing the bandwidth of the cable to that which is required for the application. Limiting bandwidth to that which is required for the application is a basic audio engineering principle that is adopted in every other component category -- speakers, amplifiers, CD players, phono cartridges, etc.

Noise infiltration obscures the ability of the cable to transfer extremely low level harmonic and spatial information accurately, and it has a tendency to make the system sound brighter and harsher in the high frequency region than what is recorded on the source material. Increased noise floor directly affects our ability to perceive full dynamic range and all its gradations.


The Role of Inductance and Capacitance in Audio Cables

Inductance and capacitance need to be carefully controlled in cable. Too much or too little of either characteristic will provide undesirable results. Flat cables, coaxial cables, and even twisted pair cables without networks exhibit electrical characteristics that are not in the best interest of music for several reasons. In lengths suitable for most home audio systems, these cables have too much bandwidth for audio applications and are particularly subject to noise infiltration. Another problem is the point at which these cables achieve electrical resonance; i.e., the point at which inductive reactance equals capacitive reactance.

We have tested a wide variety of flat cables, coaxial cables, and twisted pair, nonnetwork designs on high speed gain phase, impedance analyzers in our laboratory. When we fit the analyzer with a typical audio source impedance to drive such cables into a typical audio load impedance, the point at which these cables achieve resonance falls somewhere between 1500-2500 Hz (depending on the specific cable and its length). This means that such a cable becomes more capacitive at frequencies below 1500-2500 Hz, thereby resisting the transfer of frequencies below 1500-2500 Hz. Twisted pair cables typically have a lower resonant point (usually in the 1500-2000 Hz range) than flat or coaxial designs.

It takes a $ 70,000 piece of equipment, the engineering wherewithal to set up the test properly, and 3-4 hours of "crunch" time per cable to get the data necessary to correlate our conclusions about a particular cable's resonant behavior under audio load conditions. During our 14 years as a cable company, we have listened to and tested hundreds of different types of cables. Cables with extremely wide bandwidth create a thinner and brighter sound than cables with less bandwidth. We think this condition is primarily caused by too high a resonance.

A serendipitous effect of limiting the bandwidth of Transparent Cable with a properly designed network is a lowering of the resonant point, or that frequency where the cable becomes more capacitive and starts to resist low frequencies. In our experience, the sonic byproduct of lowering the resonant point is that music fundamentals and lower order harmonics seem to be passed in the correct proportion to each other and their higher order harmonics. The musical balance is correctly weighted around the two octaves surrounding middle C. Customers, recording professionals, and many fellow manufacturers gravitate to Transparent Cables because they are more able to reveal all the fullness, richness, and dynamic quality of the music as it is recorded.

(etc)

There's a lot more...At any rate it wouldn't seem to me that those responsible for the above explanations about their products obviously fall into the category of mere spinmeisters or snake oil salesman. That would require supposing that no one with any actual technical expertise worked out these designs, which seems like a stretch, call me crazy. Whether it's all too subtle to notice is not something I've had opportunity to form an opinion on.

WEEZ

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Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #6 on: 15 Sep 2006, 08:34 pm »
Transparent, like many, has a lot of verbage on their site. Most of it seems to point to noise elimination. I cannot argue with that, except to say that to most people..minimizing noise should be obvious, for cripesake. I'm guessing that the 'network' that is applied is a zobel (resistor/capacitor) network. And if it is, this will do precisely what they say it will, i.e.; limit the upper frequency bandwidth way on up there. No discussion of 'skin effect', thank goodness.

Frank says that the results of RCL values can be measured. And I'm sure they can. Skin effect can be measured also. But at some point it seems, that cable sellers are measuring stuff that may or may not have audible effects. And if audible at all, are likely to be very subtle in the grand scheme of things...at least for any rational length of cable used in a home audio system.

As to noise, I will offer this:

I use 24" of Canare LV-77S coax from my CD player to my pre-amp. The very same from my pre-amp to my amp. I use 36" of Belden 1505F to and from my tape recorder. (all from bluejeans cable). And finally, 16.5' per side of 10 ga. speaker wire from Cobalt Cable. My speakers are terminated with a zobel. With all equipment turned on and warmed up for 30 min., or so; and with the volume control wide open; I have to literally touch my ear to the tweeter to hear any noise at all; and even then, the refrigerator, the air conditioner, and my wife all have to be turned off to hear the system noise. No hum, either, by the way.

Is that quiet enough I wonder?

WEEZ

Wayner

Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #7 on: 15 Sep 2006, 08:43 pm »
WEEZ, I use to do that. And your point of quality shielding is very well taken, but the point of seeking zero noise with all systems at full blast is pointless if not down right dangerous. A friend of mine, a long time ago was so proud of his new EPI mini-towers. He had them cranked to the X-level until the furnace kicked in......and the party was over. I'm not saying that zero noise is unreachable, but we can't listen to music at that level, so why worry if noise is there or not, it won't be heard. :D

avahifi

Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #8 on: 15 Sep 2006, 09:19 pm »
How to make some simple test:

You will need a capacitor meter, a square wave generator, a scope, and a dummy 8 ohm load and a bunch of capacitors.

First connect the amp to the generator, 8 ohm load, and scope.  See what a 10K Hz quarter power square wave looks like.  Should have no overshoot, ripples, very little tilt, and an exponential curve for leading and falling edges.

Then use the meter to measure the capacitance of your speaker wires.  Select a capacitor of the measured value and wire it in parallel with the dummy load.  Run square wave test again.  ANY differences between the wave form with and without the capacitor is DISTORTION being caused by the capacitve load of your speaker wires.  Now tell me how good your speaker wires sound.

Frank Van Alstine

WEEZ

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Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #9 on: 15 Sep 2006, 09:21 pm »
ummm, I was not referring to the source 'playing' at full volume...just the residual noise.... :roll:....

(i'm really not as stupid as I sound  :lol:)

WEEZ

BrianM

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Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #10 on: 15 Sep 2006, 09:44 pm »
How to make some simple test:

You will need a capacitor meter, a square wave generator, a scope, and a dummy 8 ohm load and a bunch of capacitors.

First connect the amp to the generator, 8 ohm load, and scope.  See what a 10K Hz quarter power square wave looks like.  Should have no overshoot, ripples, very little tilt, and an exponential curve for leading and falling edges.

Then use the meter to measure the capacitance of your speaker wires.  Select a capacitor of the measured value and wire it in parallel with the dummy load.  Run square wave test again.  ANY differences between the wave form with and without the capacitor is DISTORTION being caused by the capacitve load of your speaker wires.  Now tell me how good your speaker wires sound.

Um...is the point of this that expensive speaker wires tend to cause distortion?

WEEZ

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Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #11 on: 15 Sep 2006, 10:51 pm »
I fully understand and appreciate Frank's comments......only a couple of questions come to mind.....

1) Why only 10khz, I wonder. What about frequencies that contain more music, like maybe 1kz, or maybe 500 hz?

2) I can understand the 'dummy' 8 ohm load if one is only measuring one frequency (in this case, 10khz); but music is made up of many frequencies and their harmonics all at the same time. I admit to not knowing a square wave from a cardboard box....but on the surface, this seems like a simplistic measurement? A speaker will present an impedence curve that varies with frequency. Even the best designs are not a flat load.

3) I agree that capacitance can alter frequency response. But how much is too much to be audible?...

Wire is a necessary evil with audio equipment. Even the best is not good. It only harms the signal less than the mediocre, or poor, or 'magic' wire.

For interconnects, which deal with high impedence loads; it's best to minimize capacitance; while with speaker wire, it's best to minimize resistance due to the much lower impedence loads. Or so I understand from muliple sources of reading on the subject, anyway.

Bottom line...I sold my so-called 'exotic' wires for so-called 'cheap' wires and noticed no degredation in sound quality what-so-ever.

Whew...

WEEZ :o

avahifi

Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #12 on: 15 Sep 2006, 11:40 pm »
A square wave contains the sum of all of the (even or odd I forgot which) frequencies up to its frequency, so the shape of a high frequency square wave is a very good rough indicator of basic linear performance.  The rising and falling slopes give a rough indicator of slew rate, the rollover curve at the top, high frequency rolloff, and the "squareness" of the top, frequency response.  The shape of the top slope gives a rough indicator of bass performance,  a humped curve indicates a low frequency resonance (bad - should be a gentle convex curve shape - best seen with low frequency square waves).

If the unit under test acts up under a simple dummy load, it is likely to behave much worse connected to a complex loudspeaker load.  This is an easy test, and if the system fails this simplistic measurement it likely will do worse with music.

Kind of like taking your temperature with a simple thermometer, it won't tell you if you have a dire disease, but a 104 reading means you might need to think about some more sophisticated tests.  We are simply taking the temperature of the amplifier, if the square wave performance on this crude basis is bad, then the unit will likely perform really badly under more careful tests and the bad IS NOT MUSIC even if you really like it a lot.  The guy on the back of the bus with a boombox turned up to full distort likes it a lot, we have to be more careful than that (I hope).

How much capacitance?  Simple, how badly is your square wave being modified?  If you can see it at all, it is likely a large distortion or resonance and not a very nice thing to have in your system.

How bad is speaker wire?  Well compare 10 feet of 12 gauge wire with the several hundred feet of tiny thin voice coil wire wound up in all your speaker drivers.  You are worrying about the last ten feet of resistive load?  Now add a few hundred pF of capacitance across that and now you can worry as you just may have made your amplifier go so unstable it melts, like an early Threshold amplifier used with Polk's infamous Cobra Cable of years ago.

My idea of a good speaker wire: simple two conductor stranded wires maybe 12 - 14 gauge or so, straight from Home Depot or Radio Shack, twisted three turns per foot in an electric drill for decent RFI rejection, terminated into banana plugs.  Its going to handle way more current that anything your system can put out or stand, be reliable, and not represent a bizarre capacitive load or cost more than season tickets to the orchestra.  Its the music folks, the music.  Don't forget that.

Frank Van Alstine

P.S.  The same testing goes for interconnect cables and line level devices. Visit Blue Jeans cable's web site, if you must have a premium cable to feel comfortable, than at least it appears theirs will do no harm.

Frank Van Alstine



WEEZ

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Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #13 on: 16 Sep 2006, 01:38 am »
Thanks for the clarification re.: a 10khz square wave, Frank.  Didn't realize it covered all frequencies up to that point in the spectrum.....

Like I've previously said, I used so-called 'great' wires in the past. And when I compared them to bluejeans' offerings a few months back; I really had to strain- and could still hear no differences good or bad; so I sold the 'great' wires. Had I not been able to cable my whole system with the 'profit' from the sale..I would have kept the 'great' ones, 'cause they sounded fine. The remaining 'profit' bought me a new equipment rack that works better for me than what I had. (and no, I won't go into the 'sound' of the rack  :|)

The cable debate is much about nothing, IMHO. Low capacitance interconnects with a good shield and termination will be fine. Same for speaker wires provided they are low in resistance as well. (of course, they need to be thick like a garden hose to sound best :icon_lol:)

WEEZ

rlee8394

Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #14 on: 16 Sep 2006, 07:30 pm »
Frank, good call on the Blue Jeans cables.  :thumb:I just recieved (3) 1.5 ft. and (2) 4 ft. of their LC-1interconnects and 20 feet of their Ten White speaker cable. Hooked the up to my Fet-Valve preamp, Omega IV DAC, Fet-Valve Phase Inverter driving two Ultra-70 amps that I rebuilt last week. I'm still pinching myself. Those Dyna OPT's never had it so good!!  :green:

Toka

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Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #15 on: 16 Sep 2006, 07:40 pm »
The LC-1 from Blue Jeans really are the best IC's out there...12pF/ft capacitance, Canare plugs and fully shielded. Can't beat that with stick.  :thumb:

john1970

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Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #16 on: 16 Sep 2006, 10:00 pm »
Frank,

Excellent advice.  I use Blue Jeans cable exclusively in my stereo system.  They are an excellent cable at a reasonable cost.

Best,

John

GHM

Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #17 on: 16 Sep 2006, 10:16 pm »
 :thumb: Yup these BJs are terrific. The LC-1s are off the chain. No more exotic cables for me. These cables are whisper quiet.

budyog

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Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #18 on: 21 Sep 2006, 04:03 pm »
Here is what I am using and I am very happy :D

SignalCable Analog 2s for all my IC's
http://signalcable.com/analogtwo.html

Beldon 10ga form Blue Jeans Cable Bi-wired for my ACI Panorama's
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm

I just ran across this and I really like it and the price is right, Stinger Expert 10 ga Silver for my subs. Only $1.25 ft. from a local audio store.
http://www.stingerelectronics.com/web/prods/speaker_wire.asp

For the heck of it I am going to try the Stinger for my Panorama's to see  if I hear a difference. I will let you know.


« Last Edit: 23 Sep 2006, 01:20 am by budyog »

Frihed91

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Re: Cables & interconnects
« Reply #19 on: 22 Sep 2006, 05:40 am »
I did not believe that cables mattered until i started using Audio Note ICs and Speaker cables.  No hype on their web page: www.audionote.co.uk and www.audionoteusa.com .