AudioCircle
Industry Circles => NuPrime Audio => Topic started by: RafaPolit on 22 May 2017, 09:27 pm
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Hello friends,
As I reported in the IDA-8 thread, my integrated NuForce DDA-100 died on me, and the local distributor is offering me two models. One is the trusted NuPrime IDA-8 of which he already has a representation here, the other is an equipment from Hegel, the H80 which he has the choice of bringing to Ecuador as he is currently on the Munich fair.
So, keeping in line with this site's rules of not bad-mouthing either NuPrime or any other brand, if you guys could help me decide, I would be really grateful.
So these are my options:
Unfortunately, none are locally in stock, so this is a 'deaf' purchase, I cannot listen to one or the other. There is also no 30 day return policy, as this item will have to be imported just for me, so it's either one or the other. No chance of testing both. I need to make an informed decision based on research and people's advice, nothing more.
So, I'm looking for precisely that: advice.
A bit of background if this helps in the decision making. The use scenario is this one:
- Speakers are a pair of Totem Rainmakers, 4 Ohm, 30 -100 W, 87.5 dB/W/m bookshelves
- Use is for music / tv listening.
- I will hook into it a RaspberryPi3 running Moode OS for Hi-Fi audio files and streaming from Spotify to the USB-B port
- I will hook into it a Samsung TV via Optical Cable
- I will hook into it an Apple Airport Express for multi-room listening (not often used) via optical or analog depending on optical input availability (IDA-8 would have to be analog)
- The H80 could be brought directly, the IDA-8 needs to be "properly" imported, so the prices for both may be the same, so lets leave price out of the equation for now
As you can see, all my sources are digital, and here lies my main interest in asking these questions here.
Apparently according to reviews, specifically an answer here from the author of the review: http://blog.son-video.com/en/2015/12/review-nuprime-ida-8/comment-page-1/#comment-12008 , seem to suggest that the H80 has a better sounding analog input. I have no doubt this is probably true, as the IDA-8 analog in is digitized. In that way, the IDA-8 appears to have more emphasis on the DAC with a very good amplifier. The H80 seems, on the other hand, to be more of an AMP with an integrated DAC, focus spent more on the AMP.
So, if my needs don't change, what would be my best pick?
Will the (apparently) better AMP on the H80 be hindered by quality of the DAC, making the IDA-8 (with an apparently better DAC) better sounding if all my inputs are digital? Will the H80 still be better sounding? Is it actually true that the H80 sounds better than the IDA-8 at all?
I understand that, from a growth perspective, the H80 seems more future-proof friendly, as I can later down the road buy a much better standalone DAC and hook its analog outputs to the Hegel's better amplifier... the other way around is a bit more limited as I could not buy a better amp for the IDA-8 as it lacks good analog outputs to an external AMP. But lets assume I won't change my needs in quite a while.
What do you guys think? Is the H80 really a better sounding device? Has anyone tried and listened to both? Can you describe as objectively as possible what were the differences?
Thanks for any advice and be kind if I'm missing something obvious :). Thanks again,
Rafa.
ps. I know this is purely subjective, but I really believe this is a valid and useful question / advice looking. If everything in this section can only be praise of NuPrime without ever mentioning any other brand, the usefulness of these type of forums is really diminished... at least that is my humble opinion.
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Incorporating a sub would be more difficult with the Hegel, since it doesn't have any preamp outs, but the Nuprime does have them. I haven't heard either so no comment on that front.
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Incorporating a sub would be more difficult with the Hegel, since it doesn't have any preamp outs, but the Nuprime does have them. I haven't heard either so no comment on that front.
It does have a line out if you look at the left hand side of the back of the unit.
http://www.hegel.com/products/integrated/h80
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It does have a line out if you look at the left hand side of the back of the unit.
http://www.hegel.com/products/integrated/h80
Typically Line Outs are not volume controlled, but their manual and literature does not show a line out or indicate if it is volume controlled. It only appears in that one photo. So if it is there I am not sure of its capability.
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To make it more confusing, although the Hegel site shows a rear panel photo with Line Output jacks yet no mention of them in the owner's manual text or drawings, an H80 for sale on eBay in the US shows a rear panel photo where the line outputs are additionally labeled "Variable".
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162702)
But I'm wondering why you're comparing the IDA-8 with the H80 instead of the IDA-16? Here in the US, the IDA-16 and H80 are priced in the same range (~ $2K), while the IDA-8 is priced at about half of either of those (~ $1K)? Maybe your pricing in Ecuador is radically different?
Steve
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The older version of the H80 did not have the line out. The newer version does. All the line outs on my various gear are all volume controlled. I am not sure why it would not be.
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Thanks for the replies. Yes, it appears the Line Output is variable.
@srb, as I tried to explain on the opening post, the IDA-8 will come through a customs proper channel, which in my country adds literally around 90% in taxes after all is taken into account. So the IDA-8 costs here US$1.710.
It appears that the H80 will come inside a friends luggage, so it will cost whatever it costs him, so, around $2K. That makes them, for me, similarly priced. That is why I asked to take the price out of the equation for the time being and assume they cost the same, because they more or less will for me. :(
It's sad to have to pay almost twice as what equipment is worth elsewhere, yet have economies with much lower monthly wagers. It makes it much more difficult.
So thanks again, and I look forward to any further info regarding actual sound quality of both equipments and their benefits and shortcomings.
Thanks,
Rafa.
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Rafa,
Don't believe you can make a bad choice between these two minimalistic appearing, high quality/value pieces. What is servicing like in Ecuador? While I've never been a fan of "captive DAC's" as the technology is improving so fast (and not just in format), I too have been persuaded by pricing and simplicity to go that route.
Would the H80 have a warrantee being delivered to you in this informal way? USB on it is "only" 24/96 (but according to The Absolute Sound a very fine performer). Note that it uses an A/B amp. Which remote would you be getting (the cheap plastic one or the extra cost beefy metal one)? Hegel seems to be almost a Norwegian cottage company from what I've read (which I like supporting). Resale value should be higher, but have no idea what that means in Ecuador.
The IDA-8 uses a hybrid class A/D amp. It adds wireless input but no XLR (I'm a fan of balanced design) and only one RCA analog input. I'm a bit of a NuForce/NuPrime fan as I nearly bought an IDA-16 when it was first introduced. With the price difference in the U.S. this would be a no brainer for me.
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Very fine points JLM, I find it that I always appreciate your impartial input on this forum trying to see from the other person's perspective rather than imposing your own situation and likes. Thanks!!
- Servicing is an issue, but this day an age where everything is so compact, nothing gets 'fixed'. It gets replaced. At least whole boards. No one would change a single capacitor, they would change the hole AMP section. The person bringing it to me is the local representative of NuPrime and other brands. I believe he would honor warranty, but instead of a week or two it would take up to two months to fulfill it. (That is actually what is happening with my NuForce DDA, he is recognizing the full price I paid towards the new equipment). So he is a very serious and accommodating person. It will mean more trouble, but the same would be true for the NuPrime.
- I was debating myself about the "only" 24/96, but I am also on the fence regarding all the technical papers saying we can't actually hear any differences beyond that or maybe even 44.1... Also the fact that numbers alone mean absolutely nothing! Jason himself has said it that a decent DAC and the super expensive ones show little improvement and its all the things 'around them' that make for good sound. So I'm not ready to throw out that option. Also, having a great set of analog balanced inputs, it can always be the amplifier of a much finer DAC if that scenario arises.
- I'm pretty sure I'll buy the stock and cheapest version available, I am well over my budget as it is :(
- I have the Wireless covered by my RPi3 board which I have installed a Spotify Connect client and it has native AirPlay support, so no need at all for the extra wireless dongle, I would probably not even use it.
- I am myself a big fan of balanced design and also of NuPrime.
- About resell value, I try not to buy thinking about that. I buy to use, and I prefer to buy what I would like to use most, not buy whatever would be easier to sell down the road. I may be loosing money, but I prefer to have what I prefer rather than what would sell better. Same happened to me when buying my car and I'm happy with my decision.
I like the simplicity of and small footprint of the IDA-8. I like the more versatile and future-proof solution that the Hegel brings, kind of 'liberating' the DAC from the equation. I have the feeling that if at one point the IDAs DAC is "not enough" I would need to buy everything again. With the Hegel's more robust analog implementation, then that path would be easier.
Then again, if that is the case, why not go to DAC-9 and STA-9 which would be the obvious choice (although for some reason I am always put off by the 'real warm' sound described everywhere, but that is another discussion). But both of them here would be even more expensive almost a US$3000.
So many choices. Thanks again for all the input, its much appreciated!
Rafa.
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Just to complicate things a bit, there is a local Marantz distributor.
How will the Marantz HD-AMP1 fit into the options? Is it really not in the same league or is it a contender at all?
Thanks,
Rafa.
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Rafa,
Glad to see audiophilia is alive and well in Ecuador. (My wife and I have casually looked into it as a possible retirement home although neither of us know a foreign language.)
Good point regarding repairs, even where I live in the U.S. service is via some remote center that the piece would get shipped to. With that kind of NuPrime representative, I'd remain loyal to him and the brand.
I don't go digital format crazy either. I've barely bought beyond 16/44.1 and have no high resolution material. No one in my old audio club (with systems up to $50,000 USD) does either. Digital conversion is still IMO more a matter of quality than numbers, thus I'm supposed to be receiving a Schiit Gungnir Multi-Bit DAC this week (perhaps the highest tech 16/44.1 focused DAC available).
The IDA-8 is a compact, high-tech, high value but somewhat compromised product. By compromised I'm thinking in terms of flexibility, features, and ultimate sound qualities. You'll have to ask yourself if it would satisfy your personal audiophile itch for a "reasonable" length of time (whatever that means to you). Both it and the Hegel fall more into the "lighter" (modern) vein of sound reproduction.
Marantz is an old name in audio (from back when we called it stereo). They still build some really nice (IMO overbuilt and over priced) pieces, but I seriously doubt if the HD-AMP1 is one of them. The build seems to benefit from trickle-down technology of that nice gear, but I'd expect the sound to be darker/heavier/cloudier (best suited for lesser systems) than the NuPrime or Hegel. Most of what they offer nowadays would be best described as mid-fi gear at best.
Take care and let us know how it all works out for you.
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Thanks again JLM. You would love it here. Cuenca has become a really nice place for retirement, and everyone there speaks English, so I think you will enjoy it here!
Ok, so, the distributor is pushing now also the DAC-9 + STA-9 combo. FInal cost of both would be (after deducting the warranty price from the failing equipment) $2,046. The final cost of the IDA-8 would be $1,333. Should I make the extra effort for the combo or will the sound signature would be so close to the IDA that I am better off saving the $700 bucks?
I hear a lot of classical music and opera, and I am always worried that the combined warmth of the DAC-9 with the added 'tube like' warmth of the STA-9 will mud out the lavish sound of orchestras. On the comparisson chart, the STA-9 and IDA-8 share all the slots except for power and warmth. So is it really worth to look into the two module approach?
I still haven't received quotes on the Hegel.
Thanks again,
Rafa.
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DAC-9 and STA-6 x 2 !!!
STA-6 is designed to be more neutral than STA-9, though it shared the same fundamental design, but we used different Class A transistor circuits on the preamp section.
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Thanks again JLM. You would love it here. Cuenca has become a really nice place for retirement, and everyone there speaks English, so I think you will enjoy it here!
Ok, so, the distributor is pushing now also the DAC-9 + STA-9 combo. FInal cost of both would be (after deducting the warranty price from the failing equipment) $2,046. The final cost of the IDA-8 would be $1,333. Should I make the extra effort for the combo or will the sound signature would be so close to the IDA that I am better off saving the $700 bucks?
I hear a lot of classical music and opera, and I am always worried that the combined warmth of the DAC-9 with the added 'tube like' warmth of the STA-9 will mud out the lavish sound of orchestras. On the comparisson chart, the STA-9 and IDA-8 share all the slots except for power and warmth. So is it really worth to look into the two module approach?
I still haven't received quotes on the Hegel.
Thanks again,
Rafa.
I PM you
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Thanks for jumping in Jason!
Makes sense, although it adds a few hundred bucks to an already stretched budget, it may just be the route!
Two questions:
- Is the quality stage and resolution of the STA-6 the same as the STA-9? If so, is it just power and less connectivity all that separates them? (Other than the neutrality being discussed, obviously).
- I am a 'fan' of balanced audio (specially on noisy electrical installations). Will there be no difference in a good balanced setup with the STA-9 vs unbalanced RCAs on the STA-6?
Finally, the trigger missing on the STA-9 but present on the STA-6s will not be able to be driven by the DAC-9 which has no trigger, is that correct?
Really an interesting choice, just when I wanted to narrow down the options, instead of broadening them again! :)
Thanks once more,
Rafa.
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Thanks Damguz, replied to the PM.
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STA-6 has the same resolution as STA-9, it is not designed to be a lessor amp, we don't do that kind of stuff.
STA-6 cost less because the SMPS was designed to be closely integrated with the amp module. STA-6 was labeled Commercial for business reason, where we try to tip toe into the custom installation and commercial market.
If you don't need extra power, then one STA-6 at 90W x 2 is sufficient. It is a killer amp at this price and performance. I don't think anything on the market can match STA-6 at this price point.
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I just popped open a single STA-6 and have been breaking it in, in an office system.
Soon, I will transfer it to my main system, which currently has a pair of bridged STA-9 to demo.
Will report, but initially the STA-6 sounds excellent, even with very lowly speakers.
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Thanks for the info. Surely seems like a great AMP at almost half the price.
Any word on the Balanced XLR vs. Unbalanced RCA? Would the differences be neglectable?
It would be nice if you could add the STA-6 to the AMP comparisson table. I'm sure that, like me, a lot of people use that to figure things out.
Thanks,
Rafa.
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XLR has +ve and -ve signals (think of your music signal being flipped) to enable it to drive long cable - that was the original objective for pro audio. The installer people likes to recommend XLR also because it is easy to connect and disconnect (some RCA cable plug can be very tight and difficult to remove). Somehow along the way XLR was perceived as having better quality.
If XLR is not well designed (most will just use opamp to flip the output signal), it is actually worst than RCA. The sound improvement probably come from people who put their mono amp next to speaker and then connect XLR cable between DAC/preamp and amp.
If your amp is next to the DAC+preamp, just go with RCA.
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As rustydoglim has mentioned, XLR is designed for the pro audio environment where you deal with very long cable runs in very noisy environments (dozens and dozens of other cables, very high voltage power and speaker, lots of emitted EMI, etc). In these environments, the inherently higher noise rejection of XLR connections is invaluable. However, there is an added cost and complexity component to implementing it.
In a home environment, where your cable lengths and sources of noise are all orders of magnitude smaller, the "benefit" of XLR is moot.
Note that this assumes that if a piece of gear has both XLR and RCA, that each is designed to equal performance. Sometimes they are not, but that is something you have to investigate individually for each component and not something you necessarily apply to a blanket statement regarding xlr vs rca.
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Thanks for the input.
Since both the DAC-9 and the potential STA-9 or STA-6 are all that is between the sources and are maunfactured by the same house... and since I don't have the option of ´testing´, then it is PRECISELY why I am asking... not as a "generic" XLR vs RCA, but a very specific: on this case the RCA output of the DAC-9 to the RCA input of the STA-6 vs the Balanced XLR output on the DAC-9 to the XLR input of the STA-9 would there be any difference?
I understand from the replies that "no" is probably the answer, but I really think that most replies get watered down by comments such as 'investigate individually for each component'... that is EXACTLY what I am asking for, from the owner of the company that makes ALL the equipment!
But then I get answers like this one from Jason:
... it is not designed to be a lessor amp, we don't do that kind of stuff...
Oh, good then, if you don't do "that kind of stuff" then the STA-6 and the Ref20 are equally good since, because you don't do that kind of stuff, then every equipment is as equally good in your lineup? With all due respect, you DO that kind of stuff. It's called having different lines of equipment, where one is a bit different (or even better) but that difference or 'betterness' comes at some extra cost, so they are in different niches. And there is nothing wrong about that!!!
The STA-6 has certain characteristics, the STA-9 probably other, the ST-10 yet another and the REF20 for sure another. That is not bad! Otherwise, what is the point? Have a single line of the least expensive product and be done with it. That is obviously not the case!
So if STA-6 is just as good as the STA-9, why is there at all a STA-9 to begin with? If STA-6 is just as good only less expensive because of a very clever design, then phasing out the STA-9 in favor of the STA-6 would have been the route. Obviously there is something more that differs them other than "the SMPS was designed to be closely integrated with the amp module", I am asking for those differences. Maybe they are not so big as to merit mentioning them, but are they really both THE SAME AMP, 200 bucks cheaper because of the SMPMS distance?
I fully understand that being 'less good' or 'different' at something is not necessarily bad, hence the price points of different equipment. But to suggest that every piece of hardware on your AMP lines is 'the same' because 'you don't do that kind of stuff' is really not true! Sorry for the harshness, but it isn't. And, obviously, does not help users to make a decision. Or at least, will make users always only buy the least expensive product, which is not what we should aim for either.
Best regards,
Rafa.
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If you have the option of using XLR at no added cost to you, then use it. Simple as that.
I think you are misreading rustydoglim's statement. Don't read it as him saying the STA-6 is equally as good as the STA-9. That is not the intent. He is not saying they are making an inferior amp either. NuPrime is making the best product they can, at the specified price point and chassis size. As a manufacturer, offering a variety of products to fit a wide range of budgets means everyone gets to play.
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So if STA-6 is just as good as the STA-9, why is there at all a STA-9 to begin with? If STA-6 is just as good only less expensive because of a very clever design, then phasing out the STA-9 in favor of the STA-6 would have been the route. Obviously there is something more that differs them other than "the SMPS was designed to be closely integrated with the amp module", I am asking for those differences. Maybe they are not so big as to merit mentioning them, but are they really both THE SAME AMP, 200 bucks cheaper because of the SMPMS distance?
Also don't forget that the STA-9 has 33% more power than the STA-6, 120W/ch vs 90W/ch. While that may not make much of a difference for some speakers, it may for others, and is part of the reason for the extra cost and a different model.
Steve
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Thanks again!
Things have quickly spiraled down (or up?) here. So, the STA-9 + DAC-9 will take almost two months to arrive. The local dealer has offered me the ST-10 + DAC-10 (not H!) almost at US retail price, which locally is almost unheard of!
With that I am facing 2 months wait on $2K worth of STA-9 + DAC-9, or a one week wait on $3K ST-10 +DAC-10.
Is it really a better sounding combo? Its neutrality certainly appeals more to my classical music taste, but again, will the warmth of the STA-9 be so mild that its not justified? Its 50% more money, but is it a 'better purchase'?
Uff... too many options, too much money, too undecided. I said yes to the pair of 10s. Will I regret it? Any person saying so soon would be great and I can cancel the order! :P :) Otherwise, I need a drink to swallow down having replaced a $330 DDA-100 with a $3000 ST-10 + DAC-10.
Or tell me I did the right thing and that I will love it? That would also work! :)
I am still in time of cancelling the order.
Best regards,
Rafa.
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No one will be able to answer those questions with absolute certainty. It's the same dilemma that we all face when we make big purchases.
However, there is a common phrase shared amoung all hobbies which is "buy once, cry once". As long as you can still afford to put food on the table and live within comfort, enjoy the ride.
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Rafa,
As Armaegis said, if the purchase doesn't put you in an uncomfortable financial position, sit back and look forward to the "10" combination.
I just went through a similar process in deciding on the IDA-16. I've had it now for nearly two months and I am thrilled with it. I believe you are going to be very pleased DAC-10/ST-10. Congratulations. :thumb:
Cheers,
Scott
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Or tell me I did the right thing and that I will love it? That would also work! :)
I am still in time of cancelling the order.
Best regards,
Rafa.
:green:
"You did the right thing. And. You will love it".
:thumb: :thumb:
Now go and also have the drink (you can never let such a good opportunity pass you by to celebrate and calm your nerves at the same time) and start writing on your 10s' experience as soon as they arrive.
And, by the way, thank the dealer on our behalf for saving us all 2 1/2 months until we hear a new raving review on NuPrime's 10s combo. Man! now you just made me jealous.
Just enjoy them Rafa, the decision has already been made.
PS. remember you owe your wife at least a year long of weekly flowers, for letting you jump,from $300 to $3,000.
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Thanks fellows!
Yes, I think I am going to be very pleased. And hopefully this will have me set for years to come.
And you are absolutely right Damguz! I owe my wife that and more! :)
I'll report back as soon as the items arrive. I'll go purchase the cables this next days: decent balanced XLRs and the 12V trigger 3.5mm stereo cable (which I assume will suffice with the $1 ones, right? :P :) )
Thanks again, best regards,
Rafa.
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"Oh, good then, if you don't do "that kind of stuff" then the STA-6 and the Ref20 are equally good since, because you don't do that kind of stuff, then every equipment is as equally good in your lineup? With all due respect, you DO that kind of stuff. It's called having different lines of equipment, where one is a bit different (or even better) but that difference or 'betterness' comes at some extra cost, so they are in different niches. And there is nothing wrong about that!!!"
You are taking my statement out of context, or you simply misunderstood it.
If within existing design knowhow AND parts cost, that we can make STA-6 sounding as good as Ref 20, or as powerful, we would.
And we would price it at STA-6 level. But we can't.
The context is within a given design and cost constrain, how can we make something as best as it can be.
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Jason, exactly!
Your suggestion was to install an STA-6 or 2 instead of the STA-9. I asked if the stage quality and resolution of the STA-6 was the same, and your answer was:
"STA-6 has the same resolution as STA-9, it is not designed to be a lessor amp, we don't do that kind of stuff".
I can certainly appreciate that the STA-6 is the best it can be at its price point. But are they really replaceable one from the other, or has the STA-9 something more over the STA-6 than power and warmth?
I am not asking which is better for the price.
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Jason, exactly!
Your suggestion was to install an STA-6 or 2 instead of the STA-9. I asked if the stage quality and resolution of the STA-6 was the same, and your answer was:
"STA-6 has the same resolution as STA-9, it is not designed to be a lessor amp, we don't do that kind of stuff".
I can certainly appreciate that the STA-6 is the best it can be at its price point. But are they really replaceable one from the other, or has the STA-9 something more over the STA-6 than power and warmth?
I am not asking which is better for the price.
The STA-6 design goals were:
1) cheaper than STA-9 - therefore we have to reduce the power, and designed a power supply just to work with the amp.
2) sounding different - less warmth than STA-9.
STA-9 was designed for people who want lots of power (and yet affordable) playing loud music. Though some have found that paring STA-9 and DAC-10H is incredible. STA-6 on the other hand, has this "Commercial" label, as we envision it as a do-it-all amp, can't-go-wrong amp for home installation. Stacks of STA-6 could be driving ceiling speakers and its sound characteristic would go well with just about any speakers.
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Thanks! That clears that up.
As you may have read, I bought the ST-10 and DAC-10 in the end. I hope they will live with me for many years to come (and maybe my kids and grandkids! :P :) ).
Thanks,
Rafa.
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So when is your 10s combo arriving?
Are you anxious?
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Ridiculously anxious! It appears next week. Hope it's soon, because on Thursday I we have an anniversary and my wife is not going to be keen with me 'playing alone' with the new toys! LOL!