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Industry Circles => NuPrime Audio => Topic started by: rjclaster on 11 Jun 2018, 06:10 pm

Title: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: rjclaster on 11 Jun 2018, 06:10 pm
what are the respects in which the evolution one is superior to the st-10M
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: rustydoglim on 11 Jun 2018, 06:28 pm
It is superior to ST-10M in every way.
We need to create a new row for Evolution One in the amp comparison chart.
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: RafaPolit on 11 Jun 2018, 08:42 pm
This is great to read, no doubt. But there are now some models of both out there! Has no one heard them? It is obvious that the company that makes the new product thinks is the last water drop in the desert... but what about others?  Has anyone not from NuPrime have anything to say about the new products?

If it is so revolutionary, then Munich would have been the place to brag, and you would have had great publicity made by the reviewers, yet, after announcing you were going to be there and amaze the world, you decided to instead ship those units to three distributors?

I find it really hard to wrap my mind about relinquishing shush a great opportunity of (almost) free publicity when every reviewer, broadcaster and visitor to the show would exclaim: this is the new best thing in the world! Yet, we are left only with the opinion of the father of the child (which we know every parent thinks his child is the best, prettiest, cleverest of all the children in the world).

Please NuPrime, get those out and let the community start rumbling about them and creating buzz around how great they are!
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Wind Chaser on 11 Jun 2018, 09:51 pm
This is great to read, no doubt. But there are now some models of both out there! Has no one heard them? ... Has anyone not from NuPrime have anything to say about the new products?

If it is so revolutionary, then Munich would have been the place to brag,

Rafa,

You need to sit tight. I'm sure Jason and his team know what they are doing.
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: RafaPolit on 11 Jun 2018, 10:01 pm
I know! That is why I think it’s crucial to get them out there and have other people learn (from the mouth of non NuPrime staff) the quality of what they have produced!

Was that not clear from my post?
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Wind Chaser on 11 Jun 2018, 10:18 pm
Maybe I’m reading. Too much into your previous post, but it sort comes off a bit hostile to me. I can’t speak for Jason, but that’s my take.  :|
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Stevegnz on 12 Jun 2018, 01:11 am
Well I have just recieved the evo ones so I have had about an hour of listening to them. Previously I had the ST10, not the ST10m's, I can only say that my initial reaction is that it was like I was partially deaf previously comparing the two. The evo ones just have so much more of everything and they are so coherent no matter the volume. My initial impression is of resolution and detail there is so much of it I feel like I am sitting right beside the artist hearing everything.
 I started with Gary Clarke Jr. Live and when he was tuning his guitar it was so vivid I heard every nuiance and scratch. I could so clearly hear as the strings moved into phase and tune I could picture exactly what he was doing... uncanny is all I can say..

I'm Very Impressed...
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: envydd on 12 Jun 2018, 05:41 am
Wow that’s a strong review. What speakers did you try them with?
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: slash71 on 12 Jun 2018, 06:00 pm
And what source again?
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: rustydoglim on 12 Jun 2018, 09:03 pm
If it is so revolutionary, then Munich would have been the place to brag, and you would have had great publicity made by the reviewers, yet, after announcing you were going to be there and amaze the world, you decided to instead ship those units to three distributors?

I already stated that Munich show was planned (shall I say not planned) LONG BEFORE the Evo One came out.
We couldn't get a demo room (all sold out by Dec 2017).
Do you know why you guys are getting cheap and exceptional products from NuPrime? Because we don't spend a ton of money on marketing.  Review cost a lot of money (year long contract with magazine(s)). The more shows we do, the more we have to charge you for the products.

Do you guys also realise that it will take anywhere from 6 to 9 months to get magazine to review and publish a new product? Sure, if we have $200K marketing budget our review will get done in a month :). But then we would have to charge 50% more for all our products.

When we say it is the best, it is the best. Eventually the word will get out.  :thumb:
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: rustydoglim on 12 Jun 2018, 09:08 pm
Well I have just recieved the evo ones so I have had about an hour of listening to them. Previously I had the ST10, not the ST10m's, I can only say that my initial reaction is that it was like I was partially deaf previously comparing the two. The evo ones just have so much more of everything and they are so coherent no matter the volume. My initial impression is of resolution and detail there is so much of it I feel like I am sitting right beside the artist hearing everything.
 I started with Gary Clarke Jr. Live and when he was tuning his guitar it was so vivid I heard every nuiance and scratch. I could so clearly hear as the strings moved into phase and tune I could picture exactly what he was doing... uncanny is all I can say..

I'm Very Impressed...

Like I say, eventually word will get out :)
This is what I have experienced when I first heard the Evo One in the lab. So I have a hard time telling people that it is better in every way. I don't know how to explain.
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Stevegnz on 13 Jun 2018, 06:18 am
Just to reply to above questions. Source is digital currently using a Antipodes DX3 going into a chord qutest DAC and then to a viganoni sachem pure preamp. Will try vinyl soon. Speakers are a combination of Monitor audio 300 golds and zen acoustic crescendo 2. really sings with both but I definitley like the crescendos with this amp..


Just a note everthing continues to improve and Bass is really coming on beautifully.. very tight and smooth no boominess and so clear to hear the bass lines. I tried some foo fighters today - the pretender, which is a killer for a lot of systems I've tried it on. but this didnt even break a sweat. even playing it loud I'm barely hitting a third on the preamp ut when I ramped it up sounded the same just louder.. no distortion or colouration. Damn.. these are good..
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: slash71 on 14 Jun 2018, 11:34 am
Just to reply to above questions.

thanks for reply Steve. the volume is my concern , with st-10 I need to turn up volume on preamp (DAC-10H) to gain some detail and resolution .. speaker on my nuprime stack are system audio mantra 5 with 88db gain ..
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Spenav on 16 Jun 2018, 07:14 pm
Hi Stevegnz
Congratulations on this important upgrade to your system. If you are in the USA, did you have to reverse the polarity of the speaker wires on the Evo One the way we have to here with the ST-10?  For some reason the polarity in the ST-10 speaker terminals are inverted. It plays like that but not optimally. I had discussed it with Bob when I upgraded mine withTDSS and he did explain the reason why. I was just wondering if the Evo One is the same way.  Please let us know if the sound changed after burn in. Enjoy!
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Stevegnz on 17 Jun 2018, 08:33 pm
Hi there,

Sorry I'm in New Zealand, we have 240v/60hz power and we I havent had to reverse polarity to speakers.
regards Steve.

Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Stevegnz on 17 Jun 2018, 08:37 pm
PS sond is changing/improving as I burn in, more bass now but it is very clear with no boominess. I must say I see how these amps are made for the milion dollar systems, or a more modest one for that matter. I know John, my local dealer, is running them with the montor audio studio speakers (costing NZ$2500) and really liking them).
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Spenav on 18 Jun 2018, 02:08 am
Cool. Thanks for keeping us in the loop.
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: in1unison on 18 Jun 2018, 01:59 pm
...the polarity in the ST-10 speaker terminals are inverted. It plays like that but not optimally. I had discussed it with Bob when I upgraded mine withTDSS and he did explain the reason why...

What is the reason for this? I have noticed the same with mine purchased in South Africa!
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Spenav on 18 Jun 2018, 03:33 pm
Hi

Here is what Bob had to say about that: "Anyway, the amps are made in Taiwan - not the EU. Then a lot of companies invert the phase. It's easy enough to correct by simply swapping the colors of the binding posts, but for whatever reason they don't. I know that they don't think absolute phase matters, but just to avoid any complaints they should just go ahead and do so and be done with it."
Makes me wonder how many people listen to them that way and form bad opinions based on bad set up.
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Wind Chaser on 18 Jun 2018, 03:52 pm
...a lot of companies invert the phase.

You mean deliberately wiring the amp so negative output terminal is actually positive, and the positive output terminal is negative? If so, I have never heard of this practice - which quite frankly doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: in1unison on 18 Jun 2018, 03:52 pm
Makes me wonder how many people listen to them that way and form bad opinions based on bad set up.

Thank you Spenav.

Lesson to take home, always test your system after changing or adding gear!
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: RafaPolit on 18 Jun 2018, 03:55 pm
Is there anywhere else this is documented?  I find it most interesting. Lets say that, for just 2 speaker setups, absolute phase does not matter (some argue it does, some say it doesn't... I don't want to go into that right now!).  As soon as you incorporate another amp to drive secondary speakers, or zone A-B, a subwoofer, any addition to it... even if absolute phase is not distinguishable (which is arguable), coherent phase between all components is A MUST! so, in the sake of keeping everything nice and tight, this should really be something important to know.

Thanks for the heads up!  I'll look into reverting mine and see if coherence of phase is improved. Thanks.

Best regards,
Rafa.
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Wind Chaser on 18 Jun 2018, 04:02 pm
Is there anywhere else this is documented?

That's what I'd like to see because that claim strikes me as absolute nonsense.  :duh:
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Spenav on 18 Jun 2018, 04:40 pm
I couldn't find any documentation on that myself but I am lucky enough that my pre-pro (Marantz AV-8802) will tell me when my speaker phase is inverted.  The difference is audible and the amp tends to clip sooner when it is inverted.  The sound is less harsh and smoother also when you correct it.  I used it like that for a couple of days before finding out and straightening it out.  I remember one song in particular from Fourplay Heartfelt CD that sounded horrible until I rectified the problem and everything fell into place.  I could sense something was amiss but couldn't put my finger on it.  Now that I have lived with the amp for a couple of years I can tell right away. 
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: rustydoglim on 18 Jun 2018, 06:25 pm
You mean deliberately wiring the amp so negative output terminal is actually positive, and the positive output terminal is negative? If so, I have never heard of this practice - which quite frankly doesn't make any sense.

You guys should stick to factory setting.
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: seikosha on 18 Jun 2018, 06:53 pm
The other issue with absolute phase is that not all recordings are recorded in absolute phase (they are all over the place) so unless you know how a particular recording was made, you really have no idea whether or not you are in fact listening to it in the correct phase.  All of us are listening to recordings out of absolute phase frequently and we don't even realize it.  Like rustydoglim says, just hook it up regularly.
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Wind Chaser on 18 Jun 2018, 07:17 pm
The other issue with absolute phase is that not all recordings are recorded in absolute phase...

That is why some DACs have a switch to invert on the fly. Doing it at the amp is a real PITA.
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Wind Chaser on 18 Jun 2018, 07:19 pm
You guys should stick to factory setting.

Positive to positive and negative to negative. Does anyone deliberately do otherwise?
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Spenav on 18 Jun 2018, 07:33 pm
Some pre-amps will let you know at setup.  That has nothing to do with recordings.  Like everything else, if you are happy with the sound as is, leave it alone by all means.  There are smart phone apps that can detect this.  I am fortunate that my pre-pro can point to it at setup.  I definitely can hear the difference, but if you are OK with it, it's all good.  Happy that the Evo One does not suffer from that.
BTW, Wind Chaser, you only have to do it once at the amp.  How much of a PITA can that be?
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: Wind Chaser on 18 Jun 2018, 07:42 pm
Well, if it depends on the recording and you listen to a lot of recordings...
Title: Re: comparison of evolution one with st-10M
Post by: RafaPolit on 18 Jun 2018, 07:57 pm
As I mentioned, absolute phase can be debated to infinity, and we are not going to come to an agreement.  Obviously if the recording's phase is inverted there is an issue, bla, bla bla.  Yes, we know!

BUT!  A coherent phase within a single system is a must, and is not a matter of debate.  So, here are some scenarios where you would definitely want to know that the absolute phase of the entire rig is kept from the source onwards.
- In order to connect line-level outputs from a RECEIVER into the ST-10 for main speakers and to a cheaper one for surrounds.
- If you are using a DAC-10 balanced outputs into the ST-10 and the RCA outputs into another AMP to gain another zone, or sub-woofer capabilities
- When using, for example, the ST-10 to drive the tweeters of a pair of speakers and another amp for the woofers

We know these are setups a lot of people use.  I am doing the second one.  So... it's very important to know the correct absolute phase position, not because of some inexplicable audio magic going on... but because if more than one AMP comes into play, you want positive current to drive all the speakers in the correct direction.  This is physics and math, its not obscurantism or magic electrons.