"Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question

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ACHiPo

"Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« on: 3 Jun 2016, 11:15 am »
My daughter is graduating from college next week, and I'm looking for something special to get her (in addition to a modest financial reward for gettin' off my payroll  :thumb:). She's interested in photography, and has moved up a couple digital cameras, generating some impressive results along the way.

Sooooo... I'm thinking a good pro-sumer body and one pro-level lens might make a good present.  I've looked at kits at Costco, but I tend to think she might be happier with one really good lens rather than an assortment.

Figured I'd start by taking her shopping to find a body that she liked I'm guessing it would be Canon or Nikon?), then get the best and fastest lens for that brand.  I know long fast lenses get really expensive in a hurry, so I figured I'd get something like a 28mm (she really likes macro photography)

What are your thoughts?  Dumb idea? 

Thanks,
Evan

P.S. Here are a few of her photos...










syzygy

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Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #1 on: 3 Jun 2016, 12:50 pm »
I suggest a package like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-D3300-18-55mm-55-200mm-Accessory/dp/B00YDQ9EG8/ref=sr_1_1?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1464957966&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=nikon+d3300&psc=1
I have and use both of those lenses and they are excellent. If you wanted to spend a bit more for a few more features, get a D5300 body instead. Don't forget to add some storage cards.

ACHiPo

Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #2 on: 3 Jun 2016, 02:18 pm »
I suggest a package like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-D3300-18-55mm-55-200mm-Accessory/dp/B00YDQ9EG8/ref=sr_1_1?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1464957966&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=nikon+d3300&psc=1
I have and use both of those lenses and they are excellent. If you wanted to spend a bit more for a few more features, get a D5300 body instead. Don't forget to add some storage cards.
Thanks!  Good to know the kit lenses are good enough to take her to the next level.

Maritan

Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #3 on: 3 Jun 2016, 02:52 pm »
Have you thought about mirrorless cameras? I have an Olympus OM-D E-M1 (mouthful, I know). It's a small and lightweight camera, easy to lug around and lenses are PLENTIFUL. It uses a micro four thirds mount and you have both Olympus and Panasonic (the two main players) churning out some fantastic glass.

Olympus also has a reconditioned/ refurbished store online and you can get some fantastic deals if you're patient. They even offer 20% off on the already fantastic prices in the refurbished store around major holidays.

My recommendation - especially if she's into shooting static objects (landscapes and such), the Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mk II. It's smaller than the E-M1 I have. You can get her a 12-40mm f2.8 PRO lens to go with and she'll instantly have a small, extremely high quality weatherproof combo that she can take with her anywhere. Quality of these cameras are fantastic, IMO. Olympus also has some really nifty tricks in their cameras - built in focus bracketing with certain lenses (my recommendation above included), built in focus stacking (jpeg output only), Live Composite, Live Time, Hi-Res mode etc. etc. Single autofocus is lightning quick, and the ergonomics are supposed to be great.

Two things that Olympus and other mirrorless cameras don't too well
1. Continuous autofocus (CAF). DSLRs are still king of fast moving action like birds in flight. I'm waiting to see what Olympus does with their E-M1 Mk II - I'm hoping their CAF improves by a huge margin. We shall see.
2. Battery life. Each battery lasts about 350 or so shots. It's not a big deal for me since I always have at least two or three of the pretty small batteries with me.

SoCalWJS

Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #4 on: 3 Jun 2016, 03:12 pm »
You say she has moved up a couple of times with her camera. Were they always the same brand? Might give an indication that she prefers a particular brand. I'd suggest getting her an excellent lens. They are generally kept "forever" as opposed to bodies which tend to get replaced every few years as technology evolves.

thunderbrick

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Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #5 on: 3 Jun 2016, 04:01 pm »
Her work is amazing!

The kit lenses 18-55/55-200 produce excellent results but don't hold up well to heavy use.  I have a 17-55 2.8 lens ($$$) that will blow the 18-55 out of the water.  Every friend that borrowed it went out and bought one.

Any idea what she's using?  Point and shoot?   

I'd suggest a Nikon D7200.  Durable, versatile and superb sensor.  I replaced my wife's D80 with a used D7000 and her images improved a LOT.  Most of that I attribute to how the camera "fits" her.

A macro lens?  A 28mm may not be what you want.  It's a slight wide angle lens for DX cameras.   Get a 100mm true macro, or. for $100 or so you could buy extension tubes that would turn all of her lenses into macros.  I carry those in my bag and get wonderful images from my 70-200. 

thunderbrick

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Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #6 on: 3 Jun 2016, 04:02 pm »
You say she has moved up a couple of times with her camera. Were they always the same brand? Might give an indication that she prefers a particular brand. I'd suggest getting her an excellent lens. They are generally kept "forever" as opposed to bodies which tend to get replaced every few years as technology evolves.

+1!

Odal3

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Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #7 on: 3 Jun 2016, 04:30 pm »
That's a great graduation present. The different brands are more a preference thing imo so go to a store and figure out which camera brand and body feels best in the hand. The other thing to consider is weight. Many of the semi pro cameras are rather heavy which may either be a plus (good build quality) or a negative (harder to carry around).

I'm a canon shooter so don't know much about the other brands. I replaced my camera relatively recently and was choosing between the Canon 6D (full frame sensor) and the canon 70D (crop sensor). There are probably newer versions out now but beleive either one of these are still considered good. The 6d is the premium of the two and is better in low light conditions and probably slightly better image quality but I picked the 70D since I wanted the faster and newer autofocus and faster shutter speed. The 70d is also the better option between these two for video. Shooting video with Dslr camera is really fun and creates excellent results.
See here for more info : http://community.usa.canon.com/t5/EOS/What-to-buy-6d-7d-or-70d-why/td-p/73732

Also check the canon refurb page for good deals. They often have extra sales on the equipment and it comes with warranty. I bought a few items from them and it always looked like new. I wouldn't buy refurbished from an eBay retailer but have no issues at all buying it straight from the manufacturer. Here's the link: http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/cameras/refurbished-eos-digital-slr-cameras

If you buy a higher end camera (> $1000), the kit lens may be good but for many of the cheaper ones you can find at best buy and similar places may not be the best.

For canon lenses the ones marked as L are the premium ones and they can be very pricey. There are also other 3rd party manufacturers that also makes good lenses for both canon and nikon mounts.

I recommend to start with a good " walkaround" lens that can be used as a general lens. If the camera has a crop factor (like the 70d), you need the width to be 17 or 18mm or it will be tricky to take good group photos, etc in tight settings such as indoors. For a full frame camera you don't have to go that low. The kit lens for the full frame 6d is EF 24-105mm f/4 L, which is a very good option

Here's an excellent guide for picking lenses based on what kind of photos to shoot plus budget:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Canon-Lenses/Recommendations.aspx

 I would also be careful buying one of the kits with all kind of extras since it may not be used or of good enough quality.

Odal3

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Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #8 on: 3 Jun 2016, 04:50 pm »
I have a 17-55 2.8 lens


I have a 17-50 2.8 lens that I have been very happy with as a general walkaround lens. I combine this with a 70-200L for shooting photos of my kids playing sports and it also makes excellent portrait shots. I also have a few nice prime lenses (fixed zoom) but I rarely use them.

Quote
A macro lens?  A 28mm may not be what you want.
Agree. A macro lens is for very specific shots and I would not get that as the first lens.

Other things to consider would be a good flash and depending on the type of shots a good tripod.

And make sure to tell her to use her student license before it expires to buy some good photo software. I recommend AdobeLightroom for library management and minor edits.

ACHiPo

Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #9 on: 4 Jun 2016, 03:58 am »
You say she has moved up a couple of times with her camera. Were they always the same brand? Might give an indication that she prefers a particular brand. I'd suggest getting her an excellent lens. They are generally kept "forever" as opposed to bodies which tend to get replaced every few years as technology evolves.
They were both hand me downs.  The first was a point and shoot digital, her current camera is a slightly better Fuji, but no separate lens.  She might like the mirror less size, but she does do some wildlife and those have fairly long lag times between depressing the shutter button and the shutter activating.  Another option is to give her my Canon G12, which is similar to the mirror less for shutter lag.
« Last Edit: 6 Jun 2016, 04:49 pm by ACHiPo »

ACHiPo

Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #10 on: 4 Jun 2016, 04:02 am »


I have a 17-50 2.8 lens that I have been very happy with as a general walkaround lens. I combine this with a 70-200L for shooting photos of my kids playing sports and it also makes excellent portrait shots. I also have a few nice prime lenses (fixed zoom) but I rarely use them.
Agree. A macro lens is for very specific shots and I would not get that as the first lens.

Other things to consider would be a good flash and depending on the type of shots a good tripod.

And make sure to tell her to use her student license before it expires to buy some good photo software. I recommend AdobeLightroom for library management and minor edits.

I wasn't thinking a specialized macro lens per se, just a fast non-zoom like f1.4 28, 50
or similar.  This one was liked by Digital Photo Review:
http://m.dpreview.com/products/sigma/lenses/sigma_50_1p4_a

As much as I'd like to surprise her, I think she probably should pick out the body herself, then we can either get a kit or a body and lens.

She has the student version of Adobe. 

ACHiPo

Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #11 on: 4 Jun 2016, 04:02 am »
Thanks for all the great feedback!

Odal3

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Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #12 on: 4 Jun 2016, 04:40 am »
Is the non-zoom (prime lens) a requirement?

The lens you linked looks to be great but a fixed zoom is very specific and it takes a while to figure out what focal length works the best for ones work. Plus if she will only have one lens, a prime lens maybe will become restrictive. There are many excellent and "fast" zoom lenses. Take a look at the digital-picture.com link I posted earlier to get some ideas.

I'm far far far from an expert, but 2.8 is "fast" enough for me, and many times I shoot a mixture of small and large aperture.

ACHiPo

Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #13 on: 4 Jun 2016, 05:10 am »
Is the non-zoom (prime lens) a requirement?

The lens you linked looks to be great but a fixed zoom is very specific and it takes a while to figure out what focal length works the best for ones work. Plus if she will only have one lens, a prime lens maybe will become restrictive. There are many excellent and "fast" zoom lenses. Take a look at the digital-picture.com link I posted earlier to get some ideas.

I'm far far far from an expert, but 2.8 is "fast" enough for me, and many times I shoot a mixture of small and large aperture.
Odal,
The fixed focal length is not a requirement, but I thought the shallower depth of field could be advantageous for some of the pictures she likes to take.

Zoom lenses certainly are the most flexible, and maybe what Thunderbrick recommends in a 17-55 would be good? 

She seems to have a good eye, so I'm sure she'll get lots of great pics regardless, it's just that everyone tells me the glass is more important (and expensive) than the body for great shots.

Evan

ACHiPo

Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #14 on: 6 Jun 2016, 01:16 pm »

See here for more info : http://community.usa.canon.com/t5/EOS/What-to-buy-6d-7d-or-70d-why/td-p/73732

Here's the link: http://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/cameras/refurbished-eos-digital-slr-cameras

For canon lenses the ones marked as L are the premium ones and they can be very pricey. There are also other 3rd party manufacturers that also makes good lenses for both canon and nikon mounts.

I recommend to start with a good " walkaround" lens that can be used as a general lens. If the camera has a crop factor (like the 70d), you need the width to be 17 or 18mm or it will be tricky to take good group photos, etc in tight settings such as indoors. For a full frame camera you don't have to go that low. The kit lens for the full frame 6d is EF 24-105mm f/4 L, which is a very good option

Here's an excellent guide for picking lenses based on what kind of photos to shoot plus budget:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Canon-Lenses/Recommendations.aspx

 I would also be careful buying one of the kits with all kind of extras since it may not be used or of good enough quality.
Odal,
These are great links.  Thanks!  My daughter is going to go to a shop this week to check out which bodies she likes so we can buy one when we're up there this weekend.

Based on her interest in macro, this lens looks interesting, but the f4 seems a bit slow?:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EF-24-70mm-f-4-L-IS-USM-Lens-Review.aspx

This 24-70 lens seems like a really good all-round lens?:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EF-24-70mm-f-2.8-L-II-USM-Lens-Review.aspx

Also Costco has Nikon D7200 and Canon 80D kits "on sale":
Nikon D7200 DSLR Camera 2 Lens Bundle
Features: AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-55mm VR II and AF-S DX NIKKOR 55-300mm VR Lens, 32GB SD Card, Camera Bag, Extra Battery, 2 Year Extended Warranty on Camera Body Only


Canon EOS 80D DSLR Camera 2 Lens Bundle
Features: EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM and EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS STM Lens, 32GB SD Card, Camera Bag, Tutorial DVD


Thanks again for your advice.

Evan

Maritan

Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #15 on: 6 Jun 2016, 02:27 pm »
They were both hand me downs.  The first was a point and shoot digital, her current camera is a slightly better Fuji, but no separate lens.  She might like the mirror less size, but she does do some wildlife and those shutters are slow.  Another option is to give her my Canon G11, which is similar to the mirror less for shutter speeds.

Fuji cameras are mirrorless and they're slower to autofocus than Olympus. If she was ok with the performance of the Fuji with the wildlife photos she took, I would seriously consider a mirrorless body. There are plenty of professional photographers that use mirrorless bodies for their livelihood.

And you probably meant to say continuous autofocus is slow - not shutters. Olympus has a mechanical shutter that is capable of 1/8000 sec - which is plenty fast.

There is a stigma associated with mirrorless and I'm still not sure why... but hey, it's a free market. Good luck to your daughter.  :thumb:

thunderbrick

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Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #16 on: 6 Jun 2016, 04:29 pm »
FWIW, I don't like mirrorless, but I am comfortable with heavy gear (Hassy, Nikon D800, etc.).  I much prefer looking through a camera lens than staring at the screen on the back.

ACHiPo

Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #17 on: 6 Jun 2016, 04:45 pm »
Fuji cameras are mirrorless and they're slower to autofocus than Olympus. If she was ok with the performance of the Fuji with the wildlife photos she took, I would seriously consider a mirrorless body. There are plenty of professional photographers that use mirrorless bodies for their livelihood.

And you probably meant to say continuous autofocus is slow - not shutters. Olympus has a mechanical shutter that is capable of 1/8000 sec - which is plenty fast.

There is a stigma associated with mirrorless and I'm still not sure why... but hey, it's a free market. Good luck to your daughter.  :thumb:
Not sure if her Fuji qualifies as mirrorless (although I guess it is as it's definitely not an SLR)--more of a point and shoot digital.  I think her current camera is something like this:
http://www.digitalcamerareview.com/camerareview/fujifilm-finepix-s1000fd-review/

I looked at mirrorless cameras before I bought my Canon G12, but didn't care for the form-factor--the balance seemed strange especially with longer lenses.  The other thing I didn't like (that the Canon also has) is serious shutter lag (you're right--it's not a matter of shutter speed, but rather the delay between pressing the button and taking the picture).  Her hands are smaller than mine, however, so she might like them better.

No doubt you can take great photos with either.

audioguy213

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Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #18 on: 6 Jun 2016, 04:53 pm »
You are erring on the side of buying too much at first.
As you note, she has to tell you the lens mount system she prefers (nikon, canon, sony, 4/3rds)
She actually has no idea based on the camera she uses now. I would advise Nikon, but Canon is fine too.
This is where you go to read on camera and reviews on them, etc.
http://www.dpreview.com/

Budget plays a huge role, here is a roundup of $800-1200 backs
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/2016-roundup-interchangeable-lens-cameras-800-1200

Each company has a prosumer digital back that will suit your needs.

Glass is most important, you know this.  Good glass lasts a lifetime. 

The pro zooms you mention are GREAT glass, BUT, she may not use them.  Why? Unlike the lenses she is used to, those weigh almost 2 pounds!  It is like balancing a can of beans at the end of a lever arm on your wrist.

The grip on pro bodies is designed to help balance this, and pro bodies weigh 3X as much to balance this also. Go to the store with her and mount the pro lens on the prosumer body and have her hold it, she will see.  She wont like it.  It takes practice and is not the place to start IMO.

So - in one or two years she probably will want those pro zooms and at that time she should get one, and she will know which one she wants.

But to start, I think you are onto something better- fast primes.  A small set of fast prime lenses will allow for light weight, portability that will have her taking more photos in my opinion (at least to start).  Since your back will have a digital crop, look at 30mm, 50mm,

LEarning to frame with a prime lens is part of photography, as is carrying a few light lenses and swapping as required.  I think a kit of a budget back and some really nice fast light primes (f/1.8 is the sweet spot most often for price performance) would be better than a professional 2.8 zoom.

Each company has a "travel zoom" with built in image  stabilization that you should eventually get her for taking on trips where she needs those features. This is a lighter weight, f/4-5.6 lens usually with IS or VR (depends on the company what they call it).
SLR please, not mirrorless.

Ask for the cheapest full frame digital body and see if she likes it.  For landscape and wide angle photography I like FF better than DX crop. It changes which lenses you use, it also costs more. 

bside123

Re: "Not a Starter" SLR Gift Question
« Reply #19 on: 6 Jun 2016, 04:58 pm »
You are erring on the side of buying too much at first.
As you note, she has to tell you the lens mount system she prefers (nikon, canon, sony, 4/3rds)
She actually has no idea based on the camera she uses now. I would advise Nikon, but Canon is fine too.
This is where you go to read on camera and reviews on them, etc.
http://www.dpreview.com/

Budget plays a huge role, here is a roundup of $800-1200 backs
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/2016-roundup-interchangeable-lens-cameras-800-1200

Each company has a prosumer digital back that will suit your needs.

Glass is most important, you know this.  Good glass lasts a lifetime. 

The pro zooms you mention are GREAT glass, BUT, she may not use them.  Why? Unlike the lenses she is used to, those weigh almost 2 pounds!  It is like balancing a can of beans at the end of a lever arm on your wrist.

The grip on pro bodies is designed to help balance this, and pro bodies weigh 3X as much to balance this also.

So - in one or two years she probably will want those pro zooms and at that time she should get one,

But to start, I think you are onto something better- fast primes.  A small set of fast prime lenses will allow for light weight, portability that will have her taking more photos in my opinion (at least to start).  Since your back will have a digital crop, look at 30mm, 50mm,

LEarning to frame with a prime lens is part of photography, as is carrying a few light lenses and swapping as required.  I think a kit of a budget back and some really nice fast light primes (f/1.8 is the sweet spot most often for price performance) would be better than a professional 2.8 zoom.

Each company has a "travel zoom" with built in image  stabilization that you should eventually get her for taking on trips where she needs those features. This is a lighter weight, f/4-5.6 lens usually with IS or VR (depends on the company what they call it).
SLR please, not mirrorless.

 :thumb: Great Advice #1