[Edward4]

Hi everyone,

I am thinking of buying a new amp. Should I get a better tube amp? Or should I forget tube amps altogether and go solid state?

I currently have an EL34 tube amp that was made in China that I purchased for under $300 a few years ago. It sounds wonderful at low and medium volumes if I play music that involves one or two string instruments - it almost sounds like the musicians are in the room with me. Or if I play "ambient" music, I don't notice any problems. But if I play piano music, it sounds kind of unreal, muffled, like the lid on the piano is down, but more than that. The piano sounds like a recording of a piano rather than a real piano. The "decay" of the piano notes is kind of missing somehow. Moving on, a symphony orchestra sounds kinda good sometimes (perhaps because it's so large that my soundstage expectations are low), but a small string orchestra sounds noticeably bad - muffled again. I can hear the notes being played, but it sounds like a recording rather than sounding like real musicians in the room. I can't pick out individual instruments. The instruments do not have their own timbre. There's just kind of a soup of sounds.

So my question is: are these shortcomings due to the cheaply-made capacitors and resistors and transformers that are probably inside my amp (I haven't looked inside)? Or are these shortcomings an inherent problem with all tube amps? Is it because my speakers are not efficient enough (87dB I think) and tube amps are not intended to be turned up too high otherwise serious distortion kicks in? Or is it likely a combination of factors?

I like the idea of tubes, because they seem more "analog" than a microchip, and in my mind I want to believe they are cable of producing more natural-sounding music. I don't trust "digitization" as the best answer to every problem. So I am somewhat biased in favor of tubes and away from solid-state. But I want to make sure that I'm not fooling myself and just being prejudiced, and therefore blind.

I'm thinking of getting an Elekit amp kit, with upgraded caps and transformers. But before I do, I just want to double-check that yes, getting a better tube amp is a good idea. Any thoughts? Comments? Opinions?

I saw a comment online a few weeks ago, where someone said that a tube amp with a cheap transformer cannot handle complex music very well, only simple sounds will sound clear and transparent with such an amp. Is this true? Does this fit with other people's experiences?

Thanks!

[SlushPuppy]

Are you sure it's not your source? I replaced a great amp a long time ago thinking it was my (similar) problem. Turned out to be my crappy DAC.

[Edward4]

I forgot to specify the rest of my setup. My speakers are GR Research Encores with good-quality capacitors, etc. I usually listen to vinyl with a "super-elliptical" stylus. However, a lot of my vinyl is used, and that could be a factor in reducing the sound quality, because I'm still learning how to properly clean it. I'm even upgrading my interconnects and power cords slightly.

I did get a new Denafrips Pontus DAC recently that is still burning in, but I have not tested out cd's very much so far.

It's interesting. About a week ago I played a vinyl record of piano-violin sonatas by Beethoven. The violinist sounded like he was practically in my living room. The piano though sounded very, very muffled. When I thought about it, I realized that a piano produces WAY more complex sounds than a violin, because it can play many notes at once, and each note involves multiple strings. Whereas the violinist has only four strings and uses his fingers to damp down the sounds on the violin.

It's possible that the issues I've observed are partly due to dirty records causing the stylus to pull less music out of the groove. I'll have to do more testing with cd's and brand new vinyl.

However I still wonder if my $270 tube amp from China could be a limiting factor.

[SlushPuppy]

I sold a PrimaLuna integrated amp to a good friend of mine about two years ago. He thought it sounded great, loved it actually, then about six months ago he was complaining about the sound. He said when music got complex or "full" that it sounded etched and scratchy. I asked him about his preamp tubes. He said he took the ones I gave him out because he found "better" ones on eBay. I asked him to put mine back in. Turns out his "better" tubes were not better than what I sent him. In fact, they were shot. Sounds like the rest of your system is great. I would try new tubes before going in a new direction. I have the same DAC. It's really nice.

[jupiterboy]

Transformers are important, and expensive. That said, recording of symphonic music and piano are not all the same. What's your source? Congestion in recordings can often be a tonearm struggling.

[S Clark]

Piano is perhaps the most difficult instrument to get right in any system.  Your speakers are excellent speakers... for the price. But as you go up the GR line and get into planar magnetic tweeters, detail improves.  Probably the "problem" you are looking to solve is found in the sum of issues throughout the system.  Better amps, better preamps, better cartridge (and better alignment), better cables, better room treatments.... it just never stops.   Try to borrow gear and listen for differences, then try to tell if the differences are improvements. 

You can spend X, or 10X, or 10 000X seeking perfect reproduction.  Somewhere you have to decide what is good enough.   

[CSI]

Knowing when to quit is tough. We audiophiles can easily slip over the line and lose sight of the goal of all this. A wise and witty commentator once said, "Music is the final distortion that audiophiles must put up with in order to listen to their equipment".

I ran my Pass designed First Watt F7 (30 watts, Class A) for over a year. It was wonderful but I felt the need for a bit more power, more bass control, and less heat generation...even at idle (170 watts) the F7 is a cooker. So I replaced it with a Benchmark AHB2 (190W/CH into my Spatial M4's) and found even better bass with all else being about the same to my ears (after break in). The AHB2 only draws 12 watts at idle, and less than 1/2 watt in standby.

[Edward4]

Interesting that pianos are hard to reproduce. I never heard that before. Of course a lot of jazz music has piano!

It's funny, when I built my speakers, which cost close to $1k for electrical and cabinet parts, plus hours of my labor, I was told it might take 400 hours for the fancy capacitors to burn-in. And I was thinking to myself, hmm, I wonder just what kind of parts are contained inside my $250 amp? Haha.

I'm thinking of doing the Elekit amp + preamp upgrade, and then calling it quits (though the GR Research X-Statiks also look good). Some reviewers called one of the newer, upgraded Elekit amps an "end-game amp". I just want to, you know, double and triple check things before I shell out money for something to be shipped from Japan, that I will spend hours of novice-soldering-labor on, without ever testing it out beforehand.....

[CSI]

My first decent audio gear was all kits. Mostly Heathkits and Dynaco. This was over 60 years ago but I still remember great satisfaction in doing the work then enjoying the results. It isn't hard to learn to solder well (these days I'm sure there are on line videos). And you will have hours of fun doing it. I highly recommend it if you are so inclined.

[toocool4]

Before you go out spending more money, I recommend you get out there and listen to as many different systems / components as you can. You need to know what to expect, else you are just shelling out money for the sake of it.

[Rusty Jefferson]

Really good sounding tube amplifiers cost money. It's not just the parts, it's also the design and the implementation. Also, every transformer coupled tube amplifier was designed with a compromise of frequency response. There are no transformers that will give you both extended high frequency and clarity, and also give you clean tight bass that goes deep. It's just a limitation of the transformer.

Before going any deeper into tube amplifiers I'd suggest borrowing or buying one of the newer solid state amplifiers that perform so well, and are reasonably inexpensive. That should give you a sense of neutrality and also be a good electrical match for your speakers.  If you want to flavor the system with tube amplification after that, it's  a journey.

[opnly bafld]

Have you ever replaced the EL34 tubes?

[SET Man]

I forgot to specify the rest of my setup. My speakers are GR Research Encores with good-quality capacitors, etc.
.....
However I still wonder if my $270 tube amp from China could be a limiting factor.

Hey!
 
    Am I missing something here? How many watts is your current tube amp output there? Is this $270 amp one of those low power SE amp with one EL34 per side?

    Not sure which Encore you have but assuming they are 8 ohm and relatively flat impedance wise, 87dB rated sensitivity speakers are likely work better with 25+ watts tube amp if you have medium to big room or/and listen to music on a louder side.

    Finding speaker that you like and would work with a particular tube amp is very important.

[whydontumarryit]

If a decent affordable tube amp with at least 60w/ ch. can't be recommended by the crowd, SS is the way to go. Class type won't matter.
The xls encores and the dac seem fine. Subs would help to increase the soundstage size and allow for an optimum positioning of the encores in the room (a change here makes more difference than counteracting defects with your amp by chasing improvements with cables or other tweaks).
You realize that your vinyl setup is compromised in a serious way that could only be overcome by the infusion of serious cash and still be questionable. Stick to hi-rez digital where the performance is consistent (or maybe mp3 if you really like the sound of vinyl).
There are so many superior and inexpensive options available these days there is no good reason for anyone to have to put up with a bad sounding system.

[Early B.]

I'm thinking of getting an Elekit amp kit, with upgraded caps and transformers.

Yeah, do this. Nothing less.

[seikosha]

Before you spend a dime, play these same music selections on other systems to make sure your issues are with your equipment and not the recordings themselves.  There are many bad recordings out there that will sound bad no matter what components are in the system.

[Edward4]

It's amusing all the various responses we get to these discussions.

As far as recordings go, I don't have very many cd's currently, and it's not hooked up to the internet currently. No cd's of piano music. My system can reproduce flute and guitar and 1-2 strings well, via either vinyl or cd, but with loads of different vinyl recordings, any piano music sounds very muffled, and complex orchestral music also sounds muffled.

My current tube amp was $260, I just double-checked. It's single-ended with El34 tubes that I upgraded months ago. It sounds loud enough for 98% of my needs with my current speakers, but when I turn the volume/gain/whatever dial up past 12-o'clock, it sometimes seems to sound more distorted. I'm new to this stuff so I'm still learning how to listen. I think my speakers have a relatively flat impedance curve; they don't dip down below like 6ohms I believe. They are said to be "easy to drive" and several people said they work well with SET amps, as long as volume/power expectations are reasonable. I do have a new subwoofer that I like, with its own solid-state amp, and I would like to build a high-pass filter so that my main amp doesn't see the bass signals below a certain frequency, and perhaps that will help reduce the "work" that my main amp and speakers have to perform.

I will see about testing out other systems, and consider all the advice I received in this thread, which was all helpful. Thank you.

I've thought about visiting a high-end audio store, and saying "yo, what's up fellas, I'm not gonna buy anything but can I demo your stuff for 30 minutes?" Haha. Do stores like that also sell music recordings? That's something I could buy.

[SET Man]

It's amusing all the various responses we get to these discussions.

As far as recordings go, I don't have very many cd's currently, and it's not hooked up to the internet currently. No cd's of piano music. My system can reproduce flute and guitar and 1-2 strings well, via either vinyl or cd, but with loads of different vinyl recordings, any piano music sounds very muffled, and complex orchestral music also sounds muffled.

My current tube amp was $260, I just double-checked. It's single-ended with El34 tubes that I upgraded months ago. It sounds loud enough for 98% of my needs with my current speakers, but when I turn the volume/gain/whatever dial up past 12-o'clock, it sometimes seems to sound more distorted. I'm new to this stuff so I'm still learning how to listen. I think my speakers have a relatively flat impedance curve; they don't dip down below like 6ohms I believe. They are said to be "easy to drive" and several people said they work well with SET amps, as long as volume/power expectations are reasonable. I do have a new subwoofer that I like, with its own solid-state amp, and I would like to build a high-pass filter so that my main amp doesn't see the bass signals below a certain frequency, and perhaps that will help reduce the "work" that my main amp and speakers have to perform.

I will see about testing out other systems, and consider all the advice I received in this thread, which was all helpful. Thank you.

I've thought about visiting a high-end audio store, and saying "yo, what's up fellas, I'm not gonna buy anything but can I demo your stuff for 30 minutes?" Haha. Do stores like that also sell music recordings? That's something I could buy.

Hey!

    As I suspected, I think that EL34 SE amp is running out of steam with your current speaker here. I think we are talking about 5-8 watts here with that amp. Keep in mind that all watts are not created equal. To be frank, we are talking about a very budget SE tube amp here, so likely their power supply are not very robust and can't keep up with demand and etc. Don't know how big is your room and how loud you like to listen to but your speaker at 87dB is a little low for this amp. Beside having flat impedance,  SET and SE tube amps don't like complicated xover in speaker also.

   So, for me there are two ways of moving forward from this. If you like your speaker now, then get a better more powerful amp. But if you like the sound of SE tube amp, then get a higher sensitivity speaker that sound good to you... the plus side of this one is that you'll have speaker that would work with wider range of amps.

    Adding sub and high pass to tube amp will help also but personally I like to keep things simple. As for visiting Hi-End audio stores, some are more welcome than another. But it is worth to visit some, even if you're going to buy anything... a good store will treat you like a potential future paying customer. If you do go visit some, bring some CDs or/and LPs with you. 

    By the way.... I've been using SET and Single Driver system for the past 20+ years now. I have two SET amps... Welborne Lab Apollo SET monoblock at 18wpc and Bel Canto 845 SET at 38-40wpc driving my homemade Single Driver speaker based on Fostex 6" drivers rated at 8ohm 94dB in 10'x17' with 8.5' ceiling.