-
Yesterday and today, in others forums, I have write about this new class D module.
Here, we have the bavmike audiophile implementation of IcePower 1200AS2.
Mivera circle: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=204.0
* https://www.miveraaudio.com/product-page/purepower-standard-icepower-1200as2-2-channel-amp $1,499
* https://www.miveraaudio.com/product-page/icepower-1200as2-amp-kit-lot-1 $1,799
* Purepower Icepower 1200AS2 amp listening impressions
https://www.miveraaudio.com/forum/purepower-amplifier/purepower-icepower-1200as2-amp-listening-impressions
In Europe we have, for now, three alternatives:
NORD TWO ICE POWER 1200AS2 £819-£949 -> €921-€1,067 (include UK VAT)
https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/nord-two-ice-power-1200as2-power-am
Apollon AS1200 ICEPOWER €1,188 (include Austrian VAT), Update: 18.04.2018
https://www.apollonaudio.com/apollon-audio-as1200-class-d-ice-power-based-amplifier/
STUDIO N-10 €830, without taxes (*) -> €1012,60 with Italian VAT
https://www.rougeaudiodesign.com/studio-n-10
Alauda without price for now
https://www.rougeaudiodesign.com/alauda
mocenigo:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156237.msg1673068#msg1673068
(*) Rouge price is without italian VAT, which is included at checkout for EU customers (Apollon and NORD instead subtract it at checkout for non-EU customers) adding 22% and price of the Rouge Studio-10 reaches 1012,60€.
Also, missing is a comparison of the connectors and internal cabling (Rouge has good quality baseline option, that keep price low, similarly for NORD, whereas Apollon starts with ETI binding posts that would alone cost 100€) - and many other differences.
********
Apollon and Rouge Studio N-10 uses a cheap chinese RF/EMI filter 10A. In Europe, with 230V, better idea 6A (less amperes -> more RF attenuation f < 1 MHz aka audio band). And Schaffner, off course.
https://www.google.com/search?q=IcePower+1200AS2+class+D
-
https://www.rougeaudiodesign.com/product-page/studio-n-10
CUSTOM UPGRADES
For any further customization of the amplifier, not included in the automatic options shown on this page, please contact us by email for a quote.
Maybe Apollon too. And Nord.
You can change the RF/EMI filter, generic wires…
-
* Nord
Takeshi Takachi cases. Only 2 mm aluminium
http://www.takachi-enclosure.com/data/p_02aluminum.html
[PDF] http://www.takachi-enclosure.com/data/c16/HYR_02.pdf
* Apollon. I like more thick walls.
Black 10mm aluminium faceplate
Silver 10mm aluminium faceplate
4mm silver aluminium 2HE rackmount faceplate
4mm black aluminium 2HE rackmount faceplate
* Studio N-10
metallo nero con frontale alluminio ossidato silver 10mm (manifattura italiana)
The Studio N-10 with Schaffner FN 9244B 6A inlet and better? wires is a great option to me.
I think if you notice sound changes with the wiring is that there are interference problems.
Neutrik connectors, good wires (not very expensive like Furutech -Mivera), Schaffner RF/EMI filter and/or Würth 150 kHz ferrite would be my choice. Apollon or Rogueaudio.
Updated: Takeshi -> Takachi enclosures
-
Schaffner FN 9244B:
https://www.schaffner.com/product-storage/datasheets/fn-9244/
[IMG] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IEC-inlet-filter-Schaffner-FN_9244-specs.png
[IMG] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IEC-inlet-filter-Schaffner-FN_9244-typical-filter-attenuation.png
[IMG] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IEC-inlet-filter-Schaffner-FN_9244-cicuit.png
* B = medical
Würth 150 kHz ferrite
[IMG] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Wurth-150-khz-ferrite-impedance-curve.png
-
Other options like cheap chinese RF/EMI filters:
Single-stage filters
https://www.schaffner.com/products/emcemi/
I have not reviewed the attenuation graphs to know which of them is better for audio and this amperage. Maybe some of them is better than the FN 9244B inlet.
*** I do not know if Two or Three stage filters work well with class D amps or this module ***
With my class AB Yamaha I only have one FN 9244B in the chain. With two the sound was worse, less dynamics. And a Würth 150 kHz ferrite.
With my class AB Marantz I have two FN 9244B in the chain. And a Würth 150 kHz ferrite.
My estimate: Würth 150 kHz ferrite is like/almost 1/2 FN 9244B 3A in RF attenuation.
-
Yamaha system with DCB (BIG Mundorf) + DCBx2 (big EPCOS)
Marantz system with DCB (big EPCOS) + DCBx4 (big EPCOS).
By the way, Marantz system with DCBx2 + DCBx4 sounds worse: less dynamics.
Always is try and error. Step by step, no hurries.
* DCB = DC Blocker
* The DCB (BIG Mundorf caps) is still burning in my TV system. Next week it will go to with my PC + ODAC + AV Marantz SR4500 + KEF Q100 system (all cheap tweaked by me).
I have a thread here:
How to clean the DC at mains. And ripple too.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.0
-
Other options like cheap chinese RF/EMI filters:
Single-stage filters
https://www.schaffner.com/products/emcemi/
I have not reviewed the attenuation graphs to know which of them is better for audio and this amperage. Maybe some of them is better than the FN 9244B inlet.
*** I do not know if Two or Three stage filters work well with class D amps or this module ***
With my class AB Yamaha I only have one FN 9244B in the chain. With two the sound was worse, less dynamics. And a Würth 150 kHz ferrite.
With my class AB Marantz I have two FN 9244B in the chain. And a Würth 150 kHz ferrite.
My estimate: Würth 150 kHz ferrite is like/almost 1/2 FN 9244B 3A in RF attenuation.
Bruno warned against using these EMI filters with the Ncore amps. But these guys using them are also using with their Ncore based amps. If they aren't required, all you're doing is passing the power signal through a bunch of extra circuitry. There's already EMI filters in the 1200AS power supply. However they only cost $10-15 so if anyone wants to try, go ahead.
I would much rather suggest just using a choke filter for the chassis ground only. And keep a pure transmission from a Furutech NCF inlet direct to the amp module. And definitely not run the mains power through the front button switch. This is a high current amplifier, and running all the power through the tiny contacts of a Chinese push button switch is a big no-no.
-
From DiyAudio (Bellissimo Audio Design): http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/319120-icepower-1200as2.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/319120-icepower-1200as2.html).
I have a pair coming.
-
Yamaha, Marantz and others already have RF/EMI filters but they can not attenuate enough in my house. You know I have "tons" of RF/EMI at mains and in the air :(
A common choke filter is a good idea. SBooster PSU uses too.
Re: < or = $700 Linear Power Supply Comparisons
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155847.msg1670164#msg1670164
[IMG] https://markgrant.co.uk/489-thickbox_default/sbooster-15-16-volt-linear-power-supply.jpg
xrk971 thinks the same with the PSU to the new DIY class A amplifier Aksa Lender P-mos Hybrid Aleph (ALPHA) (I LOVE the harmonic profile (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hum/xrk971-Alpha-20-2.87vrms-8ohms-FFT.png), it is so beautifuuuuul).
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/318102-aksa-lender-mos-hybrid-aleph-alpha-amplifier-post5360011.html
...My SMPS seems to not be able to keep up without being stressed at the currents we are talking about here. I was running the DC step up at 29v to make 24v after the cap Mx and so that was 29/24x1.3ampsx2/0.9=3.4amps. Seems within 5amp rating but the smps supply seems to have more noise when pushed this hard. I might try again later with a good common mode choke filter. For now, just use the trafo and linear supply.
-
From DiyAudio (Bellissimo Audio Design): http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/319120-icepower-1200as2.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/319120-icepower-1200as2.html).
I have a pair coming.
I heard from Icepower they actually only ordered 30 modules, not a pallet, as they claimed on another thread. And got their hand slapped for selling modules and kits. I stopped selling kits because I found out it's against the Icepower terms and conditions.
-
I heard from Icepower they actually only ordered 30 modules, not a pallet, as they claimed on another thread. And got their hand slapped for selling modules and kits. I stopped selling kits because I found out it's against the Icepower terms and conditions.
30 is nothing to sneeze at, how many on a pallet.
-
30 is nothing to sneeze at, how many on a pallet.
120 on a pallet. If they sold 120 and only have 30 coming, it's going to be an issue. Especially since Icepower know's what they're up to now.
-
On the Icepower contract:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177310)
-
Yes, adding additional AC line filtering to products using SMPS can be hit and miss if you do not know what you are doing. The SMPS already has CLC filtering at the input, by adding extra capacitive filtering nearby, you can create a resonant circuit, which will do more harm than good. Unless you have the ability to test for these resonances, better to let it be rather than increase the noise on the incoming AC line.
A very small cap will usually be OK, like .1 µF or less, but no more than that.
This also means one needs to be careful about plugging these amps into power conditioners with parallel capacitive filtering, the power cable will provide some damping of potential resonances but it still could be a problem.
-
That is one of the reasons why I like DIY cables with Schaffner RF/EMI filter inlet + Schurter IEC C13 -> It has very easy my favourite trial and error procedure with these noise & interference problems.
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/cables-Schaffner-filter-Wurth-ferrite-150Khz-IEC-C13-Schurter-from-ATL.jpg) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/cables-Schaffner-filter-Wurth-ferrite-150Khz-IEC-C13-Schurter-from-ATL.jpg)
Better with a good unshielded power cable -> a Würth 150 kHz ferrite will be more effective.
-
Does anyone know what the 2 ohm power rating is (1200AS2).
-
A very good article on the new Icepower series.
http://www.audioxpress.com/files/attachment/2643
-
Does anyone know what the 2 ohm power rating is (1200AS2).
Download the data sheet here for 1200 AS1 and 1200 AS2:
https://icepower.dk/products/amplifier-power-modules/as-series/
-
Bellissimo Audio Design says a pallet of 1200as modules is due in on the 27th.
-
Bellissimo Audio Design says a pallet of 1200as modules is due in on the 27th.
I'd check with Paul at Icepower North America to confirm that first. He's the one who the orders all go through. Also the guy who told me that is BS.
-
I'd check with Paul at Icepower North America to confirm that first. He's the one who the orders all go through. Also the guy who told me that is BS.
Just going by their facebook page. It was posted today.
-
Sorry I was wrong. Here's exactly what he said:
"FYI, he doesn’t have a pallet coming, he has a carton at the same timeframe as you.:
A carton is 20 units not 30.
-
Just going by their facebook page. It was posted today.
Well sounds pretty safe then. Order away boys! :)
-
Everybody get their orders in then, 20 will go fast. Check out their facebook page,says these will be hard to get for awhile.
https://www.facebook.com/BellissimoAudio/
-
Everybody get their orders in then, 20 will go fast. Check out their facebook page,says these will be hard to get for awhile.
https://www.facebook.com/BellissimoAudio/
From what I heard over 30 were sold 3 weeks ago. See here he says a number of units were already sold on Feb 17th:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/318707-icepower-1200as2.html#post5344687
-
From what I heard over 30 were sold 3 weeks ago.
Dunno, maybe they are getting more than 20 or 30. You can always ask them.
-
Dunno, maybe they are getting more than 20 or 30. You can always ask them.
I'm just going by what the sales manager at Icepower told me. But perhaps he's bypassing him.
-
I'm just going by what the sales manager at Icepower told me. But perhaps he's bypassing him.
You could be right, that happens in the world of business. It is a dog eat dog world.
-
You could be right, that happens in the world of business. It is a dog eat dog world.
So what happens if he sells 100 modules against the Icepower terms and conditions, but only has 20 coming?
-
Download the data sheet here for 1200 AS1 and 1200 AS2:
https://icepower.dk/products/amplifier-power-modules/as-series/
I looked at it once, I'm just not seeing it.
-
So what happens if he sells 100 modules against the Icepower terms and conditions, but only has 20 coming?
You asking me that question? If these are as good as you say, in 3-6 months every Tom, Dick, and Harry will be selling them. Icepower is not going to be as faithful as Ncore once was a long time ago.
-
I looked at it once, I'm just not seeing it.
The only thing I saw was a figure of 2.7 minimum, no actual wattage though.
-
You asking me that question? If these are as good as you say, in 3-6 months every Tom, Dick, and Harry will be selling them. Icepower is not going to be as faithful as Ncore once was a long time ago.
So if he sells 100, but only receives 20 modules from
Icepower, will all 100 buyers get their modules? Hint. 100-20=80
-
So if he sells 100, but only receives 20 modules from
Icepower, will all 100 buyers get their modules? Hint. 100-20=80
Dunno, Ask him, not me. Hint, hint
-
A better guy to ask would be the only source for Icepower modules for North American OEM’s. The one and only guy who sells the Icepower modules. Paul at Icepower North America.
-
A better guy to ask would be the only source for Icepower modules for North American OEM’s. The one and only guy who sells the Icepower modules. Paul at Icepower North America.
Then everyone here call Paul. I am not buying any.
-
Then everyone here call Paul. I am not buying any.
Man, you have become a bigger Ahole by the day. Bugger off.
-
Man, you have become a bigger Ahole by the day. Bugger off.
:scratch:
So who is trolling this Time? Not me!
-
Man, you have become a bigger Ahole by the day. Bugger off.
OzarkTom
You just seem to light up one thread after another. You may want to re-think your approach.
Please take fredgarvin's advice as soon as possible.
-
Can't people just, you know, spin a record or something?
Computers should be illegal.
-
Can't people just, you know, spin a record or something?
Computers should be illegal.
You realize you could be setting off a troll war over turntables with that advice. :icon_lol:
-
Can't people just, you know, spin a record or something?
Computers should be illegal.
Love it John. Can't stop laughing. :lol: Drop that needle.
charles
-
That brings up a good question, how does the 1200AS2 sound with vinyl.
-
That brings up a good question, how does the 1200AS2 sound with vinyl.
Here's a few impressions I posted yesterday:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177387)
These threads are so convoluted and digressive it's difficult to find the listening impressions.
-
You realize you could be setting off a troll war over turntables with that advice. :icon_lol:
I don't see how. Everyone knows the best tables are direct drives, with the Technics SL1200 being the pinnacle of vinyl playback.
-
I don't see how. Everyone knows the best tables are direct drives, with the Technics SL1200 being the pinnacle of vinyl playback.
http://www.kronosaudio.com/kronos-pro.html
-
Here's a few impressions I posted yesterday:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177387)
These threads are so convoluted and digressive it's difficult to find the listening impressions.
Thanks!
-
I don't see how. Everyone knows the best tables are direct drives, with the Technics SL1200 being the pinnacle of vinyl playback.
:D :D :D
-
Here's a few impressions I posted yesterday:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177387)
These threads are so convoluted and digressive it's difficult to find the listening impressions.
Tru dat.
Thirty five pages on the thread and I'll wager less than 2 or 3 pages with any useful information.
-
Yes. Not that it was a forum mainly audiophile.
In any case I will update the first post as others manufacturers appear and there is more information about the current ones.
-
Yes. Not that it was a forum mainly audiophile.
In any case I will update the first post as others manufacturers appear and there is more information about the current ones.
Since most forum readers are from the US, what you should list is the landed costs of each amp. That includes shipping, tax, duty and brokerage fees. This can work out to $200-300 on top of shipping, from Europe to North America on these amps. All of my amps have no duty, tax or brokerage fees on top of them for US citizens. What you pay at checkout is all you’ll pay. And shipping is 1-3 day Express.
-
Ferrites and filters with class D amplifiers, the Nuprime ST-10:
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Nuprime-ST-10-inside.jpg) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Nuprime-ST-10-inside.jpg)
-
Maty, note that the Apollon and NORD prices include austrian and UK VAT. The Rouge price is without italian VAT, which is included at checkout for EU customers (Apollon and NORD instead subtract it at checkout for non-EU customers) adding 22% and price of the Rouge Studio-10 reaches 1012,60€. Also, missing is a comparison of the connectors and internal cabling (Rouge has good quality baseline optione, that keep price low, similarly for NORD, whereas Apollon starts with ETI binding posts that would alone cost 100€) - and many other differences.
-
Update.
Grazie mille / Vielen Dank / Thank you very much
-
120 on a pallet. If they sold 120 and only have 30 coming, it's going to be an issue. Especially since Icepower know's what they're up to now.
icepower dug themselven into a hole by not thinking properly about logistics. They blame allocation issues in the electronics market (which DO exist) but they also did not have a proper multiple components sourcing strategy before they decided to bet their future on the new IceEDGE chipset.
They have pissed off many customers and I believe they would sell them the rest anyway - when available. They cannot afford to lose clientele.
-
Mivera IcePower 1200AS2 with Takeshi case, inside
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Mivera-Takeshi-IcePower-1200AS2.jpg) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Mivera-Takeshi-IcePower-1200AS2.jpg)
Nord Two SE IcePower 1200AS2, inside
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/nord-two-IcePower-1200AS2-inside.jpg) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/nord-two-IcePower-1200AS2-inside.jpg)
Rouge Studio N-10 IcePower 1200AS2, inside
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Rouge-Studio-N-10-IcePower-1200AS2.jpg) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Rouge-Studio-N-10-IcePower-1200AS2.jpg)
I have improved the images to better appreciate the details.
-
Takachi case Icepower 1200AS2 blowout sale
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156447.msg1674358
by bavmike
I've been thinking about these 30 Takachi cases I have with holes pre-cut for the Icepower 1200S modules, and what I'm going to do with them. I was going to save them for later, but I'm thinking now why sit on inventory? So I decided to sell them off as completely assembled 1200AS amplifiers. They will all only come with my standard level cables and connectors. This includes Neotech OCC copper input and speaker cable, Neutrik analog input connectors, CMC pure copper binding posts, and Mil spec silver plated copper power cable.
Pricing will be $899 for silver, and $939 for black. Contact me on my home page for more details:
https://www.miveraaudio.com
[ Update ]
You don't pay tax on the shipping cost. And actually you don't pay tax on the labor either. All I put on the customs invoices for European clients is $599 for silver, or $639 for black. Unless anyone has a problem with that. In that case I can make it as high as you want.
And I don't use Fedex. I use DHL. There's no clearance cost.
So:
$599 purchase price 487€
4% import duty on the above amount = 19.44€
21% VAT = (487+ 19.44 x 0,21) = 106.4€
Shipping cost 81€
total = 730.6 + 19.44 + 106.4 + 81 = 918€ Shipped to your door in 4 days all cost in!
-
Under construction
Notes to make the article/post.
We can make some cheap and easy improvements. Case, cables and maybe RF/EMI filters + ferrites.
Today I have comment about cables, star quad cables off course, in the DIY class A 20 watts ALPHA amplifier. Design of which I am more and more impressed every day and not only for its fantastic harmonic profile with very low noise, but this is not the thread. My problem, my loved cheap tweaked KEF Q100 coaxial speakers: 4.7 Ohms minimum impedance but I suspect sensitivity more near to 84 dB than 86 dB of specs -> they need more watts.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/318102-aksa-lender-mos-hybrid-aleph-alpha-amplifier-130.html
RF/EMI
RF Shielding: The Art and Science of Eliminating Interference
https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2013/jan/rf-shielding-the-art-and-science-of-eliminating-interference
The Three Most Popular Shielding Metals and What You Should Know About Them
https://leadertechinc.com/blog/the-three-most-popular-shielding-metals-and-what-you-should-know-about-them/
Pre-Tin Plated Steel
Pre-tin plated steel is an ideal low cost solution that works well from lower frequencies in the kHz range through frequencies into the lower GHz range. Carbon steel has a permeability value in the lower hundreds range which provides the low-frequency magnetic shielding property that is missing in alloy 770, copper, or aluminum. The tin plating offers corrosion protection for the steel to prevent rusting as well as providing a great solderable surface to attach the shield to the traces on the surface board during assembly.
BMI-S-209 Two Piece Shield
https://www.lairdtech.com/products/bmi-s-209
Material CRS
PlatingMatte Tin
https://www.google.com/search?q=steel+crs
-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold-formed_steel
-> https://www.protocase.com/products/materials-components-finishes/cold-rolled-steel.php
[PDF] http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slea029/slea029.pdf
Plated Metal Surfaces
The most common material used in the manufacture of chassis for consumer audio equipment is electro-galvanized cold rolled steel. This material has the capability of providing adequate electrical and mechanical strength for many applications...
Example: my 3 mm electro-galvanized cold rolled steel
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hum/AV-Marantz-SR4500-KEF-Q100-ATL-Hi-Fi-DCB-prototype-DC-Ripple-Blocker-x4-ME.jpg) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hum/AV-Marantz-SR4500-KEF-Q100-ATL-Hi-Fi-DCB-prototype-DC-Ripple-Blocker-x4-ME.jpg)
With 1 mm is enough. Verified with my AV Yamaha.
************ ************ ************
All about star quad cables I have moved it to a new thread:
Star quad, the best geometry to build audio and power cables (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156793.msg1678039)
-
Under construction
Preamble
Cables
Case
RF/EMI. Trial and error.
Conclusion
The post above for the notes and this one for the final article.
-
Just received the Nord Two SE ICE1200AS2 stereo amp. Letting it run in at the office for a week and then home to compare to the Hypex amps.
(https://i.imgur.com/kucEqvv.jpg?1)
-
Are the class D amplifiers connected with Furman?
Furman has discrete RF/EMI + something more inside: LiFT
http://www.furmanpower.com/furman-technologies/linear-filtration-technology
Your model is from Elite series.
http://www.furmanpower.com/products/all/component-power/elite-series
I think is ELITE-15 DM I
SMP provides the highest level of protection available
LiFT significantly reduces AC line noise
E.V.S. protects equipment from dangerous overvoltage conditions
Zero ground contamination circuitry assures delivery of pure AC
Laboratory grade dual voltage and current meters
12 volt triggering for remote control
-
Yes it is the ELITE-15 DM I. I don't trust my line voltage at the office.
Are the class D amplifiers connected with Furman?
Furman has discrete RF/EMI inside: LiFT
http://www.furmanpower.com/furman-technologies/linear-filtration-technology
Your model is from Elite series.
http://www.furmanpower.com/products/all/component-power/elite-series
I think is ELITE-15 DM I
-
Furman ELITE-15 DM I, inside
[IMG] https://images.crutchfieldonline.com/ImageHandler/trim/1736/1129/products/2010/41/756/g756ELT15PF-o_guts.jpeg
[Update]
I have improved the image to better appreciate the details:
[IMG] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Furman-ELITE-15-DM-I-inside.jpg
Oh my God, it has two ferrites! :D
[Customer reviews] https://www.amazon.com/Furman-Elite-15-DM-13-Outlet-Filtering/product-reviews/B000WUZPD0/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewopt_srt?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&sortBy=recent&pageNumber=1
-
I couldn't have a dog so I got two ferrets
-
Deleted
-
Deleted
-
Deleted
-
Deleted
-
Deleted
-
Hey Maty,
I found this one tonight. Hedd Audio active speakers with subs driven by 1200as modules. I bet these will blow you away.
http://www.hedd.audio/en/tower-mains/
-
In Germany there is a lot of interest in active speakers.
Only the sub with the 1200AS2 :(
HEDD Type 07
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/hedd-type-07
...Choosing a monitor is an intensely personal process in which you have to find the balance between budget, performance and application that works for you. With that in mind, to me it is no coincidence that loudspeakers equipped with AMT tweeters and designed by Klaus Heinz have won the SOS Awards Best Monitor category in four of the last six years, and I certainly won’t be surprised to see these HEDD monitors challenging for that position in the future.
-
Deleted
-
Deleted
-
Deleted
-
Deleted
-
What happened to this thread????? It has turned into a cable discussion.
-
Maty,
There is a power cord thread now. This is not the place to post about power cords.
-
Deleted and copied in a new thread in the circle: The Path of Least Resistance.
Star quad, the best geometry to build audio and power cables (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156793.0)
-
Mivera Purepower SE IcePower 1200AS2, inside
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Mivera-Purepower-SE-IcePower-1200AS2.jpg) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Mivera-Purepower-SE-IcePower-1200AS2.jpg)
Mivera IcePower 1200AS2 with Takeshi case, inside
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Mivera-Takeshi-IcePower-1200AS2-rotated.jpg) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Mivera-Takeshi-IcePower-1200AS2-rotated.jpg)
-
If you are going to Axpona this week, check out the Bellissimo booth. Looks like they will be showing a new 1200as amplifier. That is what it looks like on their Facebook page.
AXPONA 2018 - sneak peak of the amp that will change the industry. In a business of "me toos" this product is the accumulation of years of R&D and applied knowledge from wide number of disciplines. True innovation and the birth of ultra fidelity! See this beast in action at the #CSS room 578.
-
I think is other module:
https://www.facebook.com/BellissimoAudio/
[IMG] https://scontent.fmad3-5.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30127687_434601930305391_2023424420616208754_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=3a525c678918f5221795215b32f0d173&oe=5B2761E8
-
I think is other module:
https://www.facebook.com/BellissimoAudio/
[IMG] https://scontent.fmad3-5.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30127687_434601930305391_2023424420616208754_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=3a525c678918f5221795215b32f0d173&oe=5B2761E8
You maybe right, they were due in some 1200as modules anytime soon.
-
Not a 1200 or Icepower, but you still might want to check the Bellissimo amp out at Axpona. 4000 watts?
-
Bellissimo is trying to get a 12oo amp up and running in time for Axpona.
No, this is not an ICEPower based amp. Rushing production of a 1200 for it to make an appearance and hoping to have it there on time.
All the specs on this amp and others in the series will be posted shortly. This is a multichannel amp with DSP and a bunch of tricks and features never done before. The DSP is state of the art with 24/192k resolution and a GUI that is logical and easy to program. All in all this model took about 2 years to develop and get it to where it is now. It sounds incredible full range with a low frequency "slam" other class D amps lack especially in the 50-60hz region. The low end presence is a kick in the chest - it is tight & controlled with the speed/accuracy you expect from a class D but with a character similar to that of a lateral mosfet.
-
Has anyone here auditioned the bellissimo NC500 amps compared to Nord? Bellissimo is based very near where I live; I always like to patronize local companies when and if I can.
-
Has anyone here auditioned the bellissimo NC500 amps compared to Nord? Bellissimo is based very near where I live; I always like to patronize local companies when and if I can.
You might check their new NC502MP. They told me that is better than their 500.
-
I think is other module:
https://www.facebook.com/BellissimoAudio/
[IMG] https://scontent.fmad3-5.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30127687_434601930305391_2023424420616208754_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=3a525c678918f5221795215b32f0d173&oe=5B2761E8
That does not look like ICE Edge 1200AS module to me.
-
Has anyone here auditioned the bellissimo NC500 amps compared to Nord? Bellissimo is based very near where I live; I always like to patronize local companies when and if I can.
The company is located here in the US, easier to deal with for any warranty claims etc. Their prices have been significantly lower than anything else being offered.
-
The company is located here in the US, easier to deal with for any warranty claims etc. Their prices have been significantly lower than anything else being offered.
Where, exactly, is it located in the US? There's no reference anywhere that I can see. (Just curious.)
-
You might check their new NC502MP. They told me that is better than their 500.
The specs of NC 500 OEM are better. It need a buffer (cheap from Hypex or from other factory like Nord).
NC500MP OEM vs NC502MP OEM
They are worse than the previous one, which is what mattered to me when I investigated and discarded. You know, I usually listen to very good recordings.
With bad recordings like modern commercial music you do not need to spend a lot of money.
-
Where, exactly, is it located in the US? There's no reference anywhere that I can see.
If a "company" can't afford to have a $5 - $10 a month hosted website, I don't know what to say. If a company wants to have a Facebook presence in addition to their website, fine.
Facebook is an utterly awful structure to try and shoehorn a website into. Sorry, but pass due to failure to perform due diligence.
-
The specs of NC 500 OEM are better. It need a buffer (cheap from Hypex or from other factory like Nord).
NC500MP OEM vs NC502MP OEM
They are worse than the previous one, which is what mattered to me when I investigated and discarded. You know, I usually listen to very good recordings.
With bad recordings like modern commercial music you do not need to spend a lot of money.
Just repeating what they messaged me. The company does have an Ebay store. That is what I have+Facebook selling picture frames. I have been on Ebay 20 years.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/ultrafiaudiovideo/m.html?item=222573491003&hash=item33d269f33b%3Ag%3A3iMAAOSwZshawuiX&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562
-
Where, exactly, is it located in the US? There's no reference anywhere that I can see. (Just curious.)
As for being easier to deal with I can't say...Mike of Mivera is very easy to deal with and I know where he is located in BC.
The eBay and usaudiomart listings say they are located in New Jersey, United States. usaudiomart lists them as "manufacturer", I am curious as what criteria one has to meet to be listed as "manufacturer" by usaudiomart.
Mike is easier to work with, no doubt about that, but he does not offer anything except the ICE Edge amps at the moment. For Hypex one has to rely on Nord or ATI. ATI only offers linear power supply based amps.
-
The specs of NC 500 OEM are better. It need a buffer (cheap from Hypex or from other factory like Nord).
NC500MP OEM vs NC502MP OEM
They are worse than the previous one, which is what mattered to me when I investigated and discarded. You know, I usually listen to very good recordings.
With bad recordings like modern commercial music you do not need to spend a lot of money.
As a curiosity, how do the cheap buffers from hypex sound? What are their weaknesses?
-
If a "company" can't afford to have a $5 - $10 a month hosted website, I don't know what to say. If a company wants to have a Facebook presence in addition to their website, fine.
Facebook is an utterly awful structure to try and shoehorn a website into. Sorry, but pass due to failure to perform due diligence.
You have a valid point.
-
As a curiosity, how do the cheap buffers from hypex sound? What are their weaknesses?
Ask to bavmike, the expert in the NC500 buffer.
-
Ebay has over 250 million worldwide shoppers. Amazon is probably the only one with more, maybe not. Even Harmon, Audio Heaven, Audio Advisor, and many other large audio stores and companies sell there.
-
Title of the thread: Amplifiers with IcePower 1200AS2, class D module.
-
If you are going to Axpona this week, see if Bellissimo has their new IcePower 1200AoS 1200 amp in room #CSS 578. Their might be some others also. :thumb:
-
According to their Facebook page, Bellissimo received their 1200as modules today.
-
https://www.rougeaudiodesign.com/alauda-s2
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/ae8ca7_d8890df63bed472986247b04ac6090cf~mv2.png)
FILTRO SHAFFNER - Come filtro di rete viene utilizzato uno Schaffner FN284-10/06 con interruttore a bascula bipolare, presa IEC C14 e doppio fusibile (Ø5 x 20mm). Corrente massima 250VAC, 50/60hz, 10A. Induttività nominale 0.34 mH(2x) mH. Capacità CX220 nF. Corrente derivata <373 µA. Attenuazione @ 150 MHz: 13 dB. Attenuazione @ 10 MHz: 52 dB
[PDF] http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1851814.pdf
Page 3 -> Attenuation graphs :(
Schaffner FN 9244B:
https://www.schaffner.com/product-storage/datasheets/fn-9244/
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IEC-inlet-filter-Schaffner-FN_9244-typical-filter-attenuation.png) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IEC-inlet-filter-Schaffner-FN_9244-typical-filter-attenuation.png)
-
http://www.apollonaudio.com/apollon-audio-as1200-class-d-ice-power-based-amplifier/
• Power rating (single channel driven):
1200W @ 4ohm
600W @ 8ohm
• Power rating (both channels driven):
700W @ 4ohm
620W @ 8ohm
*** IMPORTANT NOTE *** The Amplifier is capable of delivering 1200W @ 8ohm when driving only one channel. As many people assume, that they get two channels with 1200W power we want to clear up this misconception, so that you will not be dissapointed when you receive the amplifier.
700 watts is the max power in stereo
Efficiency: 80%
230V at mains: 4A
115V at mains: 8A
Then the RF/EMI filter better with 8A max for all world. stereo
If DIY, in Europe, RF/EMI filter with 3A max is enough. In a BIG discoteque, 4A. stereo
but the true is:
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IcePower-1200AS2-power-specs.png)
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IcePower-1200AS2-power-specs.png)
Filter with less max amperes -> more attenuation in the power band audio, < 300 kHz
-
Usually, with speakers of 90 dB only need about 10 watts continuous. We need more power to the peaks. The home amplifiers work < 1 A.
http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/calculadores_en.htm#calc_spl
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/soft/SPL-90dB-8W-two_speakers-in_phase-3m.png) (http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/soft/SPL-90dB-8W-two_speakers-in_phase-3m.png)
Random phase: 92.5 dB
-
mocenigo by mail:
Apollon has lowered the price of their amp to 990 EUR + (Austrian) VAT, so it is:
* 990 EUR for non-EU customers
* 1,188 EUR for EU customers
I have updated the first post.
-
mocenigo by mail:
I have updated the first post.
I checked the shipping rate on Appolon Audio's website last week, $68 to Missouri. :thumb:
Rouge and Nord was around $105.
-
I checked the shipping rate on Appolon Audio's website last week, $68 to Missouri. :thumb:
Rouge and Nord was around $105.
All of these amps are about the same price, some have slightly nicer cases and they cost a little more. Wiring is slightly different as well but I'm not sure how much difference it really makes. :dunno:
-
Well, I guess it just depends on what you want to spend your money on. Wires and cases or the actual product that makes the music sound good. Maybe these elements make a difference in sound and maybe they don't. I have as good an eye as anyone and probably better than most. I do design work for people and design things in general. When looks matter to me I happily pay more for whatever it is I'm buying. My Lampi Atlantic isn't the best looking dac I have ever owned for sure, but it sounds better than anything I've heard so far. So, I bought one.
I just ordered a very nice couch and chair for my great room. It really looks good and has very nice leather. I could have easily spent half as much for another leather couch and chair but I like these better. In this case I was willing to spend the extra money to get something I really like and that is well designed rather than something that just looks O.K. to me. It doesn't mean I have good or bad taste.
Everyone has reasons why they spend money on what they do. Just because someone decides they don't think it's necessary to spend money on certain aspects of a product doesn't mean they don't have a good eye or good taste, or that they can't see the difference. To think that is just being narrow minded IMO.
-
Checking out the Apollon website on the Icepower 1200as amp, these are also custom made after you order. Lead time is currently quoted as a 2 week lead time.
Their 5 star website is very nice, must be a multi-thousand dollar website. They have instant messaging if you have any questions. I ask them about their best sounding amp, the 1200as was not it, but stated it was a best buy for the money. Answer was very speedy.
Face plate options are 4mm rack mount, or 10mm non-rack for the same price. 10mm is just a hair over 3/8 inches, very nice.
Price quoted is $1224 and $105 for shipping. You might message them to check on brokerage fees or other custom upgrades on your amp. Paypal is accepted. :thumb:
Maybe it was Rouge that had the lower $68 shipping rate. I will check that out.
-
Ferrites (speaker cables) inside class D amp with old IcePower modules. Red and black wires like my tweak with woofer wires in KEF Q100 coaxial speakers.
[IMG] http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160515/479ffba2e3c85fa1002ee8def91d6aa3.jpg
[IMG] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/kef-q100/KEF-Q100-crossover-styroflex-bypass.jpg
-
All of these amps are about the same price, some have slightly nicer cases and they cost a little more. Wiring is slightly different as well but I'm not sure how much difference it really makes. :dunno:
I heard a rumor that the 100as ice edge module might be out. I will wait on that one. Heck, with the speakers I use, 10 watts per channel would blow my ears out. No 1200as for me.
-
For someone who doesn't own and has no intention of owning an AS1200 based amp - you sure post a lot about them.... :scratch:
I have no issue using my Mivera Takachi case AS1200 amp with my horns which have a sensitivity of 100db.
If you want real feedback about the AS1200 look at the Mivera feedback threads- real info from actual owners of the amp, not just conjecture and speculation from guys who don't even want the amp.
-
For someone who doesn't own and has no intention of owning an AS1200 based amp - you sure post a lot about them.... :scratch:
I have no issue using my Mivera Takachi case AS1200 amp with my horns which have a sensitivity of 100db.
If you want real feedback about the AS1200 look at the Mivera feedback threads- real info from actual owners of the amp, not just conjecture and speculation from guys who don't even want the amp.
If the ice edge technology is only in the 1200as, then that is probably what I will buy. There are now five companies making the 1200as ice edge, and I am sure there will be a lot more before the year is out. Also, PS audio is getting some great reviews from mags and real owners on their icepower amps. Check out their website. M700's are now rated Class A by Stereophile.
Maty also posted a lot on these companies, has he bought one yet?
-
PS Audio make some great gear, I used to have one of their dacs. The M700 looks like a nice amp, but the 700AS is a lower end offering than the 1200AS from Icepower. The 1200AS does not benefit from an input buffer, and can be had for a lot cheaper than the M700. As 1200AS based amp seems more appealing to me.
If you rate the M700 so much are you going to buy a pair?
-
PS Audio make some great gear, I used to have one of their dacs. The M700 looks like a nice amp, but the 700AS is a lower end offering than the 1200AS from Icepower. The 1200AS does not benefit from an input buffer, and can be had for a lot cheaper than the M700. As 1200AS based amp seems more appealing to me.
If you rate the M700 so much are you going to buy a pair?
Who knows? Just looking at all my options. :)
I have never heard M700's BTW. All reviews are just reviews until you get to hear the equipment yourself in your system. Everyone here knows that. 1200as reviews are no different.
-
Who knows? Just looking at all my options. :)
I have never heard M700's BTW. All reviews are just reviews until you get to hear the equipment yourself in your system. Everyone here knows that. 1200as reviews are no different.
Everyone needs a starting point of where and what to start listening to when selecting a new piece of gear. Specs, professional reviews, enthusiast feedback can help provide that starting point. The feedback threads here are the most information you will find anywhere about the 1200AS - great for anyone wanting to know the options.
You are a hundred percent correct that you will never know how something sounds unless you listen to it in your own system - ideally over several days.
On the flip side it is equally important to ignore the noise from guys who constantly talk about stuff they have no experience with whatsoever. :thumb:
What options are you looking for? What kind of system?
You couldn't lose with one of the Mivera amps if you really wanted to try a 1200AS, they are in so much demand that all the guys that upgraded to SE have sold the Takachi amps in minutes for no loss. That it is cheaper than anything comparable is a credit to Mike.
-
Are the PS Audio M700 amp Ice modules using a different module technology than the 1200 Ice Edge module?
-
If the ice edge technology is only in the 1200as, then that is probably what I will buy. There are now five companies making the 1200as ice edge, and I am sure there will be a lot more before the year is out. Also, PS audio is getting some great reviews from mags and real owners on their icepower amps. Check out their website. M700's are now rated Class A by Stereophile.
Maty also posted a lot on these companies, has he bought one yet?
Hello, Tom.
I just wanted to clarify something you stated in the above quote. You stated, "There are now five companies making the 1200as ice edge, and I am sure there will be a lot more before the year is out."
I believe what you meant by this is that there are five companies using the 1200as modules to produce amplifiers. There is only one company making the 1200as modules, and that is ICEpower.
As for the PS Audio M700 amp that you mentioned, consider this statement:
"In the Stellar M700, the Gain Cell drives a 700ASC class-D power module from the Danish company ICEpower. I asked Paul McGowan, CEO of PS Audio, why they chose this module rather than, say, one from Hypex, another class-D specialist. He said that they spent a lot of time listening to modules from various manufacturers, and the 700ASC was the one whose sound quality most closely matched that of the Gain Cell." This quote is from Robert Duetsch's review of the M700 in Stereophile (January 23, 2018)
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier#7M8TWdQKIr3ZXImP.99
You misstated Robert's review when you stated, "Check out their website. M700's are now rated Class A by Stereophile."
In the final paragraph of his review, Robert stated, "Set up side by side rather than stacked, and sitting on IsoAcoustics Orea Audio Equipment Isolators, the Stellar M700s came ever so close to matching the sound of my high-end reference monoblocks, Theta Digital's Prometheuses—which are ranked Class A in "Recommended Components" and, at $12,000/pair, cost four times as much as the PS Audios. The Stellar M700 is an outstanding bargain."
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier-page-2#T6WiXJvb63rfvORk.99
The Theta Digital's Prometheus amplifiers are rated Class A. He did not declare the M700 amps to be Class A.
If you're going to post information in my circle, please make certain it is factual and without errors first.
Regards,
Michael
-
Regarding Stereophile's rating of the PS Audio Stellar M700 amps, in the April 2018 issue Recommended Components on page 76 they are indeed currently rated in their Class A (Solid State) category.
-
He’s correct:
Class A
PS Audio Stellar M700 monoblock: $2998/pair $$$
The Stellar M700 incorporates the latest version of PS Audio's Gain Cell—described as "a proprietary, fully differential, zero feedback, discrete, class-A MOSFET circuit"—using it to drive a class-D power module from the Danish ICEpower company. The Stellar M700 has both balanced (XLR) and single-ended (RCA) inputs, weighs a mere 13 lbs, and is specified as providing 350W into 8 ohms. RD used a pair of M700s to drive his Monitor Audio Platinum PL300 II loudspeakers, and described the amp as having "very little sound of its own, and nothing that I could describe as a distinct class-D character." The PS amps impressed RD with their distinctly smooth sound—"tubelike wouldn't be entirely inappropriate as a description"—and noted that they were able to drive the Monitor speakers "to volume levels as high as I could tolerate without amplifier or speakers ever sounding distressed." In measuring the Stellar M700, JA noted that it slightly exceeded its rated power output, and concluded that it "offers respectable measured performance." (Vol.41 No.2 WWW)
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-2018-edition-power-amps#HpoG3wOepUJ6fyy3.99
I also understood he meant 5 companies making the amps and not actually making the module. We all know that is only B & O.
-
^^^^^^
:D
-
Regarding Stereophile's rating of the PS Audio Stellar M700 amps, in the April 2018 issue Recommended Components on page 76 they are indeed currently rated in their Class A (Solid State) category.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I notice there is at least one other Class D amp in that "A" category. I'll email the editor to ask about it. [Edit: No need to email the editor. I found the explanation:
"Class A
Best attainable sound for a component of its kind, almost without practical considerations; "the least musical compromise." A Class A system is one for which you don't have to make a leap of faith to believe that you're hearing the real thing. With Super Audio CD, DVD-Audio, and Hi-Rez PCM and DSD files now available, we have created a new Class, A+, for the best performance in those digital categories. Class A now represents the best that can be obtained from the conventional 16/44.1 CD medium. We also created Class A+ categories for turntables and phono preamps.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-2018-edition-how-use-listings#ZO63O2XfzC436uXU.99
What was not made clear was that this is a special rating system of Stereophile's. I was unaware of this system, so when Tom said the Class D amp was Class A, I, of course, took it to mean it was a Class A amp.
All this confusion could have been avoided with a link like the one above.
Michael
-
He’s correct:
Class A
PS Audio Stellar M700 monoblock: $2998/pair $$$
The Stellar M700 incorporates the latest version of PS Audio's Gain Cell—described as "a proprietary, fully differential, zero feedback, discrete, class-A MOSFET circuit"—using it to drive a class-D power module from the Danish ICEpower company. The Stellar M700 has both balanced (XLR) and single-ended (RCA) inputs, weighs a mere 13 lbs, and is specified as providing 350W into 8 ohms. RD used a pair of M700s to drive his Monitor Audio Platinum PL300 II loudspeakers, and described the amp as having "very little sound of its own, and nothing that I could describe as a distinct class-D character." The PS amps impressed RD with their distinctly smooth sound—"tubelike wouldn't be entirely inappropriate as a description"—and noted that they were able to drive the Monitor speakers "to volume levels as high as I could tolerate without amplifier or speakers ever sounding distressed." In measuring the Stellar M700, JA noted that it slightly exceeded its rated power output, and concluded that it "offers respectable measured performance." (Vol.41 No.2 WWW)
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-2018-edition-power-amps#HpoG3wOepUJ6fyy3.99
I also understood he meant 5 companies making the amps and not actually making the module. We all know that is only B & O.
Certainly, many of us regulars know this yet many other folks who read these threads do not.
-
All five companies are using the exact same Icepower 1200as module, no difference. Mivera, Nord, Rouge, Apollon, and Bellissimo. Sorta like General motor cars. Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Olsmobile, Chevy. etc. It is nice to have a choice.
-
^^^^^^
:D
-
I'm not familiar with the 700ASC amp, is it considered better than the 1200as? Or does it just have a different power rating?
-
I'm not familiar with the 700ASC amp, is it considered better than the 1200as? Or does it just have a different power rating?
The 700ASC is an older version module. Before the new ICE EDGE 1200as. The ICE EDGE has been well received as superior to the older ASC modules.
-
All five companies are using the exact same Icepower 1200as module, no difference. Mivera, Nord, Rouge, Apollon, and Bellissimo. Sorta like General motor cars. Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Olsmobile, Chevy. etc. It is nice to have a choice.
Oldsmobile?
-
The 700ASC is an older version module. Before the new ICE EDGE 1200as. The ICE EDGE has been well received as superior to the older ASC modules.
As I recall the 700ASC was initially well received but not by everyone... While some embraced it, others were very critical right from the get go and they were right. It didn't stand the test of time.
So with the new 1200as - will it stand the test of time - or will the novelty wear off? Time will tell.
-
Oldsmobile?
You're missing the point.
-
Rouge Audio out of Roma, Italy also has a Five Star Website. In fact maybe more. This is their web store, they list over 20 different amps, all custom made to order, and they will do upgrades based off your needs. Icepower, Class T, Headphone amps, Pascal, And Ncore is availabe. Rouge also has instant messaging and answers fairly quickly if asked during their business hours.
https://www.rougeaudiodesign.com/buy-now
The company has the exact same 1200as module amp as everyone else, but wait. a new PRM-1200 coming soon? Is Rouge leading the pact?
ALAUDA
PRM-1200
DESCRIPTION
Class D stereo power amplifier based on the ICEpower 1200AS2 module using the new ICEedge technology. Integrated SMPS power supply with PFC (power factor correction) combined with two independent class D amplifier modules. The ICEpower board is implemented with our ASRX interface that optimizes the audio performances as well as allowing the user to control the Signal Sense function (through which the amplifier, put in standby mode, is activated only in the presence of the audio signal). Amplifier of high power and quality. Balanced and unbalanced inputs selectable by switch. Clipping indicators for each channel. 12V Trigger. New aluminum 19" black chassis, Furutech IEC-FI-03 socket and WBT, Copper colour or Argento Audio binding posts.
CHASSIS: black anodized aluminium 19" (rack mounting)
DIMENSIONS: 482.6x320x88mm
SIGNAL SENSE
INPUT: 2 balanced + 2 unbalanced
TRIGGER: 12V (jack 3.5)
OUTPUT: 4 hi-grade binding posts (WBT, Argento AUdio, Copper Colour RCS)
IEC INLET: Furutech FI-03 (G)
EMI FILTER: KT110D-10A
ACCESSORIES: standard power cable IEC/SHUKO
Output power one channel driven: 1200W (4Ω), 600W (8Ω)
Output power two channel driven: 2x700W (4Ω), 2x600W (8Ω)
Distorsion THD + N (1W/1kHz) = 0.005 %
Minimum load impedance = 2.7 Ω
Dynamic range = 129db
SNR = 135db
Frequency Response 3hz-50Khz
Voltage Gain 25,8db
Input Impedance 38Kohm
Output idle noise (A) = 25mV
Maximum output current 38A
Universal Line Input Voltage: 95-250Vac
Tentative price is $1200. Custom upgrades will be more.
Shipping to Missouri might be $68. This one looks very interesting
Their current 1200 amp is $1021 and $68 to ship to Missouri. Custom duties is unknown. On $1021, it should not be a lot. Lead time is 12 days, stated on their website.
You can look for a long time on their website.
Here is the latest info on US duty rates.
Up to $1,600 in goods will be duty-free under your personal exemption if the merchandise is from an IP. Up to $800 in goods will be duty-free if it is from a CBI or Andean country. Any additional amount, up to $1,000, in goods will be dutiable at a flat rate
-
Hi, Tom.
Great Class D amps find. :thumb: They've got an impressive selection of amps for sale.
Michael
-
You're missing the point.
You missed the joke. Neener neener. :P
-
As I recall the 700ASC was initially well received but not by everyone... While some embraced it, others were very critical right from the get go and they were right. It didn't stand the test of time.
So with the new 1200as - will it stand the test of time - or will the novelty wear off? Time will tell.
I wonder if PSAudio will introduce a new model implementing the 1200as?
-
Since they have a "class A" rating in Stereophile I doubt they are too worried. It's more than just the module as everyone knows. There will always be something different coming out touted as the latest greatest in everything we do. For $2100 with a trade-in and no risk seems like a pretty cool deal for a pr. of mono amps and a great company that will be around. Think it will be my next move up the ladder.
-
Bad news for PSA fans, M700's now $3K, $1200 trade-in is now max. S300 is $200 higher.
People are requesting 1200as on their forum.
https://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-m700-power-amplifier/#tab-description
-
Don't know what forum you are reading at PS Audio but I am a member and there has been no mention of a Stellar amp in days and nothing about the 1200AS other than a comment by me months ago. Seems to be just more of the same.
-
Don't know what forum you are reading at PS Audio but I am a member and there has been no mention of a Stellar amp in days and nothing about the 1200AS other than a comment by me months ago. Seems to be just more of the same.
Are you on the Darren Myers thread of March 10? I think that was last month.
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/my-dream-paul-mcgowan-darren-myers/5345
-
No, but I'm in there with Darren, Ronin, Michael and others. Started out as an exchange between Michael and I as he was looking for more power for big Infinity IRS's. Hard to tell sometimes as he is using Google Translator to post.
-
No, but I'm in there with Darren, Ronin, Michael and others. Started out as an exchange between Michael and I as he was looking for more power for big Infinity IRS's. Hard to tell sometimes as he is using Google Translator to post.
I was just reporting what I saw on the PS forum. t seemed to me talk about the 1200as modules. I imagine Paul reads all posts. If PS is not aware of these 1200as modules, they must be blind since they are an Icepower dealer. A 1200as amp with gain cell technology would probably be a runaway best seller for them.
-
As the M700's are barely a year old and selling well I doubt he will do anything with the 1200AS until he sees a real demand. I doubt you could just swap the modules out as the hole pattern is probably not the same and the buffer may need modification as the two modules are from different production series. His main concerns now are the new Bridge and Server in addition to finishing the speaker project he and Arnie started. Also there is a new phono preamp in development. The only thing amongst those that interests me is the new Bridge and software.
As Michael's in Denmark and works with a speaker company I referred him to Colin by pm if he wanted to try one. Thing is he want's monoblocks to put beside the IRS's and none of the lower cost offerings are monos.
-
My words about PS Stellar M700 :(
Re: Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156250.msg1673278#msg1673278
Good class D IcePower 700ASC module with a buffer (PS Gain Cell) -> H3 predominance. I find it an incomprehensible decision.
-
But you can get the M700's and their gain cell DAC for $3999 also. Max trade in is $1200.
https://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-m700-gcd-combo/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=dearlocal&utm_campaign=stellar_package_dearlocal
PS Audio also accepts Amazon and Paypal credit cards. Free shipping and 30 day trial. :thumb:
-
But you can get the M700's and their gain cell DAC for $3999 also. Max trade in is $1200.
https://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-m700-gcd-combo/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=dearlocal&utm_campaign=stellar_package_dearlocal
PS Audio also accepts Amazon and Paypal credit cards. Free shipping and 30 day trial. :thumb:
I would be a bit careful with this amp and not buy it "blind". There was a pair of them available 2nd hand in our country for EUR 2300 (EUR 3500 new). It seemed this pair of amps was already owned by 2 different people. So if they are that good as what some people do say, why do they change owner that often?
-
I would be a bit careful with this amp and not buy it "blind". There was a pair of them available 2nd hand in our country for EUR 2300 (EUR 3500 new). It seemed this pair of amps was already owned by 2 different people. So if they are that good as what some people do say, why do they change owner that often?
30 day trial from PS. Not so good if you live out of the states. No amp is perfect.
-
I would be a bit careful with this amp and not buy it "blind". There was a pair of them available 2nd hand in our country for EUR 2300 (EUR 3500 new). It seemed this pair of amps was already owned by 2 different people. So if they are that good as what some people do say, why do they change owner that often?
Hard to judge an amps performance by just one example.. You see them for sale infrequently here to but for many different reasons. I have never heard sound or quality as a factor for sale; people flip equipment for various reasons. As mentioned above no amp is perfect and some systems have synergy with other components and some system matches leave a bit to be desired. I have them and love them. They fit in my system very well. Also the reviews are top notch. However as in your example above, one review does not tell the whole tale either. In home listening is always best..
"Set up side by side rather than stacked, and sitting on IsoAcoustics Orea Audio Equipment Isolators, the Stellar M700s came ever so close to matching the sound of my high-end reference monoblocks, Theta Digital's Prometheuses—which are ranked Class A in "Recommended Components" and, at $12,000/pair, cost four times as much as the PS Audios. The Stellar M700 is an outstanding bargain."
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier
-
First post updated with:
Purepower Icepower 1200AS2 amp listening impressions
https://www.miveraaudio.com/forum/purepower-amplifier/purepower-icepower-1200as2-amp-listening-impressions
-
Mike
Another review of the Mivera Audio Purepower SE. However this guy is so against believing cables, connectors and case quality makes a difference in sound that he refuses to mention the amp he heard or who actually made it.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-new-ice-edge-1200as2-amp-module
I agree with Mike (Mivera Audio). In a review you must say the manufacturer or assembler of the class D module if it is not diy.
And the preamp + speakers (sensitivity at least) too.
-
I agree with Mike (Mivera Audio). In a review you must say the manufacturer or assembler of the class D module if it is not diy.
Wha?
Anyway, that review makes the amp sound an awful lot like the TPA32XX amps I have, just with more power. So far I am not sensing the same level of GAME CHANGER status from the 1200AS2 as when Ncores hit the scene.
-
He does not build the amplifier like a diyer.
The case and cables geometry/build is more important with class D technology. I have verified that I need at least 4 mm aluminum (better more) or 1 mm steel sheet to avoid the very great RF/EMI I have in my house. With two class AB amplifiers and with my cheap USB DAC (ODAC).
With 1200AS2 you do not need to add a good buffer (with very low SNR) and PSU. More cheap!
-
http://www.ti.com/product/TPA3251
[PDF] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa3251.pdf
http://www.ti.com/product/TPA3255
[PDF] http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa3255.pdf
I suspect that the SNR (about 112dB) is at max power. Much less than IcePower 1200AS2 or Hypex NC500 v2 at the same power.
tpa3251.pdf, page 8
SNR is calculated relative to 1% THD+N output level
* BTL: 111 dB
* SE: 100 dB
And the true power at THD 0.1% is much less!!!
TPA3251 vs. TPA3255 THD according to datasheet
http://www.360customs.de/en/2016/09/tpa3251-vs-tpa3255-thd-nach-datenblatt/
[IMG] http://www.360customs.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/g5078-5.png
And one thing are the chip specs and other their implementation in a board like DAC.
-
IcePower 100AS1 / AS2 have the TPA3251.
https://icepower.dk/products/amplifier-power-modules/as-series/
ICEpower 100AS2
Containing a capable fly back power supply with a continuous power capability of 100 W and a short-term power of 300 W, combined with a 2x 100 W class D amplifier. The 100AS2 is perfect for applications such as stereo hifi and home automation amplifiers, active speakers, studio monitors as well as 2 channel guitar or bass amplifiers without the need for forced cooling.
[PDF] https://icepower.dk/download/2431/
Key Specifications
1 x 100 W/4 Ω (100AS1) and 2 x 100 W/4 (100AS2) @ 1 % THD+N, 1 kHz
0.003 % THD+N @ 1 kHz, 10 W/4
50 kHz audio bandwidth
<77 uV A-weighted output noise [maty: at max power, 100 W/4 (100AS2) @ 1 % THD+N]
Minimum load impedance at 3 Ω
Output currents up to 12 A
+8 V DC and +/-17 V DC auxiliary supply outputs
Universal mains (100 – 240 V, 50 – 60 Hz)
Size (LxWxH): 140 mm x 77 mm x 36.5 mm (5.51 inch x 3.03 inch x 1.44 inch)
Chip specs: 60 μV (A-Weighted) Output Noise
-
So Maty, how many of these Icepower amps do you own or have heard? Most people here never rave about something they have never heard before in their system. :scratch:
-
Wha?
Anyway, that review makes the amp sound an awful lot like the TPA32XX amps I have, just with more power. So far I am not sensing the same level of GAME CHANGER status from the 1200AS2 as when Ncores hit the scene.
I had diy'd tricked out NCore monos which were very good. Since then, I unfortunately have gone down the rabbit hole when it comes to amps. Modwright, Odyssey Kismets, Wells Audio...finally found Nord and Colin built me some very nice One-Up monos based on the NC500 modules.
I must say that the 1200AS2 modules are the best amps that I have had in my system. I bought an SE version from Mike at Mivera and could not be happier. IF the 1200AS2 is like TPA32XX amps that you have then the TPA32XX must be very good indeed.
Regards,
Randy
-
I believe you Randy, I just wonder why a certain person here that downplays every other amp design except one. Does he really own one? Or is he just a salesman for a certain company here?
Anyway all 1200as companies are using the exact same module. Would a DIY'er buy a 1200as module and install it in a broken Krell or Classe amp chassis and have the very best sound of all? That should cost about 2000 or less.
-
I had diy'd tricked out NCore monos which were very good. Since then, I unfortunately have gone down the rabbit hole when it comes to amps. Modwright, Odyssey Kismets, Wells Audio...finally found Nord and Colin built me some very nice One-Up monos based on the NC500 modules.
I must say that the 1200AS2 modules are the best amps that I have had in my system. I bought an SE version from Mike at Mivera and could not be happier. IF the 1200AS2 is like TPA32XX amps that you have then the TPA32XX must be very good indeed.
Regards,
Randy
Hi Randy, could you share what preamp or dac is feeding the Mivera, and speakers?
-
Hi Randy, could you share what preamp or dac is feeding the Mivera, and speakers?
Here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156814.msg1681136#msg1681136
Best,
Anand.
-
@OzarkTom
I always write about specs in this thread.
If you have a class D module with very good specs you will want a buffer with specifications as similar as possible. The same with the PSU.
I was about to buy the initial kit, which I thought I would improve by spending the least. But I decided to try to improve even more the cleanliness of my disastrous mains. The improvement was so substantial that I decided that it was not worth risking to ruin a system that caused adrenaline rushes with some excellent recordings of analog master that I have, many of them probably recorded with tube equipment -> H2 predominance is my hypothesis -> EMOTION.
Re: How to clean the DC at mains. And ripple too.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.msg1667589#msg1667589 EMOTION
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.msg1672876#msg1672876 GLORIOUS
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.msg1673121#msg1673121 Beauty
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.msg1675899#msg1675899 Awesome
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.msg1675913#msg1675913 EMOTION
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.msg1677229#msg1677229 More addictive
After the incredible improvement the logical thing is to enjoy music that gets excited and not take risks with a very different technology like class D.
I am not a compulsive buyer. For me the most important thing is music, enjoy and get excited when listening to it.
-
I always write about specs in this thread.
If you have a class D module with very good specs you will want a buffer with specifications as similar as possible. The same with the PSU.
I was about to buy the initial kit, which I thought I would improve by spending the least. But I decided to try to improve even more the cleanliness of my disastrous mains. The improvement was so substantial that I decided that it was not worth risking to ruin a system that caused adrenaline rushes with some excellent recordings of analog master that I have, many of them probably recorded with tube equipment -> H2 predominance is my hypothesis -> EMOTION.
Re: How to clean the DC at mains. And ripple too.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.msg1667589#msg1667589 EMOTION
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.msg1672876#msg1672876 GLORIOUS
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.msg1673121#msg1673121 Beauty
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.msg1675899#msg1675899 Awesome
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.msg1675913#msg1675913 EMOTION
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153802.msg1677229#msg1677229 More addictive
After the incredible improvement the logical thing is to enjoy music that gets excited and not take risks with a very different technology like class D.
I am not a compulsive buyer. For me the most important thing is music, enjoy and get excited when listening to it.
Keep doing what you're doing, Maty. You're fine in my opinion.
Enjoy life!
Michael
-
Here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156814.msg1681136#msg1681136
Best,
Anand.
Thanks Anand.
-
I think everyone should read the thread I opened days ago. The new comments are very instructive.
Phase shift in class D amplifiers. How it affects the sound?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/321578-phase-shift-class-amplifiers-affects-sound.html
For me, measurements are always a necessary condition, which is not enough. The 1200AS2 phase graph is unacceptable if you want a top system I think.
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IcePower-1200AS2-output-impedance-phase.png)
I summarize it: I am glad I did not buy the IcePower 1200AS2.
-
On the part of guilt that corresponds to me, I apologize to all those who have bought it.
I am very sorry. :cry: :oops: :duh:
-
OMG! What a shocking revelation! How did you not catch this months ago? We have all been fooled. It really doesn’t sound good!
-
After millions invested over a 10 year period, we now learn it was all wasted. Had they only hired Maty years ago this disaster could have been prevented.
-
I think everyone should read the thread I opened days ago. The new comments are very instructive.
Phase shift in class D amplifiers. How it affects the sound?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/321578-phase-shift-class-amplifiers-affects-sound.html
For me, measurements are always a necessary condition, which is not enough. The 1200AS2 phase graph is unacceptable if you want a top system I think.
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IcePower-1200AS2-output-impedance-phase.png)
I summarize it: I am glad I did not buy the IcePower 1200AS2.
Ironically, I just bought a 45 SET amp with 2 watts of power and even worse measurements. But I too am glad I didn't buy the IcePower amp :thumb:
-
On the part of guilt that corresponds to me, I apologize to all those who have bought it.
I am very sorry. :cry: :oops: :duh:
Me too Maty. I bought 2. If I had only listened to you. So sad. So sad. :cry:
gab
-
NELSON pass should hire maty to take care of the necessary stuff for him.
-
oh i forgot to bold the word necessary
-
I guess there can be at least 2 camps:
1. People that base their entire decisions on measurements. If it measures like crap it obviously sounds like crap despite what one hears.
2. I don't care what the measurements are, I either like it or I don't telative to how it performs in my set up.
Tyson, one could assume that you are in camp #2 as I am and I would think I don't have the depth of experience you have but if one likes what they like does experience really matter?
If I am wrong as Rosanna Danna once said "never mind"....
-
Maty, I tried to warn you but noooooo, you went ahead anyway. I had the same response commenting on the nCore amps, quit while you are still ahead of the crowd.
(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/an-angry-mob-holding-torches-in-a-still-from-the-film-frankenstein-picture-id2014797)
-
I guess there can be at least 2 camps:
1. People that base their entire decisions on measurements. If it measures like crap it obviously sounds like crap despite what one hears.
2. I don't care what the measurements are, I either like it or I don't telative to how it performs in my set up.
Tyson, one could assume that you are in camp #2 as I am and I would think I don't have the depth of experience you have but if one likes what they like does experience really matter?
If I am wrong as Rosanna Danna once said "never mind"....
I used to be firmly in camp #1, now I'm in camp #2. I'm a Gen X person so I love technology (and I work in IT), so I always had a bias that newer (and better measuring) is better. But the more I'm in the audio game the more I think we made a wrong turn when high powered SS amps were invented and low efficiency speakers became the norm. And now with Class D it seems like we're just going faster and faster in the wrong direction.
But, I could be wrong. The nCore amps all pretty much sucked, but perhaps the newest generation won't. So I'm open, but skeptical.
-
Um, the graph is of the output impedance vs frequency, with both magnitude and phase shown. It does not show "phase shift" of the audio signal.
(For example, at 10 kHz the output impedance is 0.03 ohms with a phase component of 70 degrees. It's hard to see how this can have any consequence at all.)
-
I think everyone should read the thread I opened days ago. The new comments are very instructive.
Phase shift in class D amplifiers. How it affects the sound?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/321578-phase-shift-class-amplifiers-affects-sound.html
For me, measurements are always a necessary condition, which is not enough. The 1200AS2 phase graph is unacceptable if you want a top system I think.
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IcePower-1200AS2-output-impedance-phase.png)
I summarize it: I am glad I did not buy the IcePower 1200AS2.
And in thread #31 of your DIYaudio thread above you summarize: "IcePower 1200AS2 is only usable (high end audio) up to f < 500 Hz.[/b] "
I am pretty sure there are LOTS of people with 1200AS2's that will disagree with your finding of < 500 Hz ....
Can we at least agree that the 1200AS2 amp shouldn't be used for high end audio above 700 Hz? Or maybe 800 Hz?
I mean come on Maty.....give a little will ya?
gab
-
Darn, no 1200as in my future. My 3 year old DAC Cherry amps must also in the same camp. But wait, maybe those two little red lights on top of the amps are actually tubes. Keeping my fingers crossed. :D
-
I do not think any class A or class B, tubes or solid states, do not have flat phase at least at f < 20 kHz, I would very surprise.
I wrote an email to the IcePower more than two weeks ago and they have not answered me. The same happens with PS Audio.
************ **************
@WGH
It is a little puppies multitude/crowd. I live in Catalonia (Spain), where a lot of people hate to others to think differently and physically threaten from October 2017, so... they are puppies.
-
With modern commercial music with so many awful things that they do in the studies, with electronical/computer instruments one more crap will not be noticed I think.
With some speakers it may not be as problematic as with others. But I want a clean poweramp, without harmonics (added via preamp -even harmonics only- if I want) and that does not alter the audio signal.
I do not want to add a new variable to a system that is already complex. I want to remove it from the equation.
-
You're barking up the wrong tree. The graph is not the phase of the amplifier....
-
You're barking up the wrong tree. The graph is not the phase of the amplifier....
John, not sure where in Sydney you are located, but if you want to hear/borrow a 1200AS amp let me know. So far everyone locally who has heard it in a few different systems have been very positive.
-
Which is the usual graph of the output phase in a well-designed class-D amplifier?
-
As long as the system gives me the emotion I want, I don't care what the measurements say or class tube, a,b,c,d, or z.
-
I have a Mivera amp with the new ICE board and I love it guys. I am in the "measurements be damned' camp and this new amp sounds better to me than either of my 2 tube amps. After 2 weeks I keep looking for a fault and have not yet found it. In the past 3 days I have twice switched to a tube amp to compare and quickly went back to the ICE amp just because I preferred the sound. I have owned several class D amps in the past and they were too harsh in general - not so now.
-
https://icepower.dk/about/#contact
ICEpower HQ info@icepower.dk
Subject: IcePower 1200AS2 and phase shift, again
Hi from Spain,
Two weeks ago I send you a mail with a question about the phase shift of
IcePower 1200AS2 module.
I opened a thread about the question here in Diyaudio.com
Phase shift in class D amplifiers. How it affects the sound?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/321578-phase-shift-class-amplifiers-affects-sound.html
[IMG]
http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IcePower-1200AS2-output-impedance-phase.png
Simple question:
Is the output phase of the IcePower 1200AS2?
If not, which?
Please
-
They probably have bigger fish to fry than answer stupid questions. Like keeping up with the exploding demand from OEM’s who have listened to them.
-
In Spanish there is a saying: quien calla otorga -> who keeps silent says yes.
-
I also have a Mivera SE amp with the new ICE board. I'm in the "measurements be damned' camp and this new amp sounds better to me than all the tube amps I tried. The list is long, but they were used with different speakers than I have now, so to say the Mivera amp sounds better than all of them may not be completely valid. My current speakers are Spatial M3TM's and prior to the Mivera amp was using a Dennis Had Inspire amp (17 watts with KT88's). I always thought it sounded great but these speakers really came alive in every way with the Mivera amp.
-
The measurements of this amp are actually outstanding. We just have a case of someone having no idea how to interpret them.
-
I wasn't implying the measurements of this amp are good or bad, just that I haven't ever paid too much attention to measurements, at least not so much anymore. Early on like 18 years ago, when I started becoming an audiophile instead of just a guy who is really into music, I would read professional reviews in hard copy magazines. Some of those reviews included measurements. Buying decisions were partially dependent on measurements then, but more on what the reviewer liked about the sound. Now I rely on what people who have the component say about it on forums and in reviews.
-
I wasn't implying the measurements of this amp are good or bad, just that I haven't ever paid too much attention to measurements, at least not so much anymore. Early on like 18 years ago, when I started becoming an audiophile instead of just a guy who is really into music, I would read professional reviews in hard copy magazines. Some of those reviews included measurements. Buying decisions were partially dependent on measurements then, but more on what the reviewer liked about the sound. Now I rely on what people who have the component say about it on forums and in reviews.
Hey, that's similar to me! Although nowadays I tend to just wait for something exceptional to show up on the used market, try it out in my system for a few weeks & then re-sell it if it's not as good as what I already have. Takes a lot of the guesswork (and financial stress) out of the whole process.
-
Hey, that's similar to me! Although nowadays I tend to just wait for something exceptional to show up on the used market, try it out in my system for a few weeks & then re-sell it if it's not as good as what I already have. Takes a lot of the guesswork (and financial stress) out of the whole process.
That's been my method for quite a while now. I've listened to a lot of well reviewed amps that have left me cold. I don't like to talk negative about any product, but I will give my opinion freely. Throughout all of my listening I would say the price of an amp doesn't really mean that much as I have fallen in love with the sound of some pretty inexpensive amps. Maybe my ears are crap.
-
I bought my second hand class AB AV Marantz SR4500 for less € 120. After my cheap tweaks and the great improvement in the cleanning the mains power it sounds very good in my cheap second system. Well, one of the weakness was the cheap -and dirty- trimpot (bias adjust) - the damn Marantz cut of expenses where it should not be. Now I do get excited much more easily and more often than years ago! To have clean power is very important.
https://nauscopio.wordpress.com/2012/09/08/receptor-av-marantz-sr4500-comprado-al-forero-audiomalaga-de-audio-planet/
-
Hey Maty, check out this new XTZ Edge Icepower amp for 495 Euros. It is not Ice Edge, but it is the Icepower 300as module. A German mag gave it a very glowing review. Use the 30% off coupon and it is less than $500. Sounds like a heck of a deal to me. Made in Sweden and very nice looking.
https://www.xtzsound.eu/reviews/edge-a2-300
Correction. looks like the 30% off coupon has expired. Spain total is 505 Euro.
-
Hey Maty, check out this new XTZ Edge Icepower amp for 495 Euros. It is not Ice Edge, but it is the Icepower 300as module. A German mag gave it a very glowing review. Use the 30% off coupon and it is less than $500. Sounds like a heck of a deal to me. Made in Sweden and very nice looking.
https://www.xtzsound.eu/reviews/edge-a2-300
Correction. looks like the 30% off coupon has expired. Spain total is 505 Euro.
Je, weeks ago I change mails with the founder, Olle. And I suggested the 1200AS2 module. With a steel box and its production scale could offer it at a much lower price than its competitors.
I always like to contact and talk with people with decision-making ability.
-
I think we are missing the point here. I mean here are some Class D products at $96K plus. Now those have to be good right? (lol)
https://blinkhighend.com/shop/components/aavik-m-300-power-amplifier/
-
I think we are missing the point here. I mean here are some Class D products at $96K plus. Now those have to be good right? (lol)
https://blinkhighend.com/shop/components/aavik-m-300-power-amplifier/
I believe the design to be class A/AB.
https://aavik-acoustics.com/products/u-301.html
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-mono-power-amps-class-a-2017-12-20-amplifiers
In addition it is very heavy, has a low input impedance of 11k-12k ohms and puts out about 300-580 watts/ch. Pretty chassis with obviously covered heatsinking. The overall gain is slightly more than the industry standard at 30dB instead of 26 dB (a minor consequence other than increased noise). The output impedance is a low 1 milliohm with a damping factor of 8000.
It appears to be a competent design that is overpriced but without a subjective audition and far more detailed measurements on an AP or equivalent there is no way to distinguish it from other companies building equally competent products without the fancy chassis.
I believe their U-300 model which is an integrated amp at $30k is Class D.
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/aavik-acoustics-u-300-integrated-amplifier/?page=4
Best,
Anand.
-
I just send again the same mail to Icepower.
Why? There was a problem on my part because I sent it ... encrypted. :duh:
Off course, the first mail was not encrypted.
So I put the days counter to zero.
PD: my public key https://nauscopio.wordpress.com/about/
-
mocenigo says:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/281361-hypex-ncore-nc500-build-post5433261.html
You can go to the Apollon site and there is a little chat widget. I asked for confirmation that they were not using RF/EMI filters on the AS1200 amp. I paste here their reply verbatim
We don’t use any EMI filters in our amplifiers. EMI filters are not the best choice for SMPS power supplies.
For our Icepower models, we don’t even use an additional fuse. We use a Furutech mains input socket connected direct to the modules.
Corrected the first post.
-
IcePower 700AS2. Frequency and Phase.
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IcePower-700AS2-output-frequency-phase.png)
Icepower 1200AS2. Impedance and Phase.
(http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/IcePower-1200AS2-output-impedance-phase.png)
-
Once again, these graphs are not comparable. (I will try to explain.) The first graph is frequency response - this has two components: magnitude (or amplitude) and phase. Definition:
"Frequency response ... is a measure of magnitude and phase of the output as a function of frequency, in comparison to the input."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_response)
The second graph is the output impedance - this also has magnitude and phase. However this is not the same "phase"! From Wikipedia:
"Impedance extends the concept of resistance to AC circuits, and possesses both magnitude and phase, unlike resistance, which has only magnitude."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance)
The "phase" shown in those two graphs is a completely different property. (Please try and absorb this....)
-
I think you need to go to the basis:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_current
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law
-
Yes, a complex number can be represented as magnitude and phase, and Ohm's law defines the relation between a voltage across an impedance and the current through it. So .... :scratch:
I'm not sure what part of this you are blocked on, but maybe you could just read the labels - see how one is "Frequency Response" (NOT "Frequency and Phase") and the other is "Output Impedance" (NOT "Impedance and Phase") ? They are measurements of different quantities.
-
* Class A and class AB, R is R (almost R). Usually the phase varies is in little interval -> you can consider that the impedance is basically resistive. Everyone has it assumed and is not usually specified.
P = Vdc*Vdc / R
* Class D, R is Z, complex. That is the problem with the IcePower 1200AS2 and others class D modules and not only the frequency peak of old class D or the noise at HF.
P = Vdc*Vdc / Z
One thing is a little interval like 6 degree, other different thing is 34 or 70 degree. How much affect in the sound? I do not know. Always I think in very good recordings without electronic/computer instruments, autotune.... and lot of studio processing.
Phase varies -> wich is the natural timbre of a violin, piano, voice... ?
1200AS2: About 40 degree at 1 kHz.
-
Now we have a poweramp with Z(w) and traditional speakers with Phase < 45 degree. A new variable.
********* ***********
I would like a poweramp without harmonics too. The harmonics, if I want, from preamp (SE topology: H2 predominant).
If you add harmonics, worse, H3 harmonics, we have a new variable in the sound quality. PS Audio M700 with the own buffer (H3 predominant, and very noisy too -buffer, PSU or both) and IcePower 700AS2.
I want less variables in que equation! Poweramp with real output impedance (R) and without harmonics.
-
P = Vdc*Vdc / Z
It seems that you are somehow conflating the load impedance with the output impedance. They are very different. Refer to this diagram - the 1200AS2 graph of output impedance (in magnitude and phase form) that you keep (erroneously) referring to is the voltage/current relationship across Zg only.
(http://www.electronicdesign.com/sites/electronicdesign.com/files/styles/article_featured_standard/public/63946tab.jpg?itok=srMQyAUr)
-
The question is/was always the same.
The poweramp, like many others things, is as a black box system. You can emulate/modeling it based on the output measurements vs the inputs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
I say that if IcePower answered my email or wrote a note or ... it would be clear to everyone.
The question I asked is simple: which is the graph of the output impedance phase of the 1200AS2 class D module?
Why they do not give signs of life?
-
The question I asked is simple: which is the graph of the output impedance of the 1200AS2 class D module?
:o
-
Output phase.
-
Dropped in my Nord 1200AS in place of my Hattor NC500 based mono amps. Out of the gate the 1200 throws a spectacular soundstage, left, right, front, back and up. Very 3D and airy sounding with almost exaggerated detail. Sounding a little thin but it is early. It does some amazing things and is a very initial WOW sounding amp.
A crazy contrast I thought about as I carried the Nord in the house under one arm. I remember needing a hand truck and some serious heave ho to get my Parasound A21 in the house. Maybe this is why it sounds a little thin
-
Congrats on your new amp Marty! My 1200AS2 sounded a little off when brand new, it will improve some. My speakers dip to 2.9ohms, just a tad under the minimum allowable impedance for ICEedge, making it possible to get 1400 watts out of ICEedge if my voice coils and ears could take it. I would never need that much, but I like having that power reserve, as it dowses my amp anxiety. I never worry about the amp clipping or distorting, or breaking anymore. When I first got it I observed my programmed reactions from years of using small DIY amps that whenever music played low and loud, I would tense up and listen for problems instead of relax and enjoy the music. I'm very satisfied with the tone quality too, and that's saying something for me. Small, light and cool too! I almost bought a decade old Edge amp a week before I got this, so glad I waited.
-
Ten years ago, Lyngdorf SDA-2175, I see a RF/EMI filter inlet with class-D.
[IMG] http://www.hifishock.org/galleries/electronics/lyngdorf/power-amplifier/sda-2175-1-lyngdorf.jpg
Inside the new class-D Lyngdorf TDAi 2170 Integrated Stereo, with discrete and complex RF/EMI filter.
[IMG] https://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/media/lyngdorf/tdai2170/tdai_l_9-large.jpg
The IcePower 1200AS2 has a simple RF/EMI filter.
[IMG] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Mivera-Purepower-SE-IcePower-1200AS2.jpg
I still think is a good idea try with a Schaffner RF/EMI filter inlet (or in a DIY power cable, with Schurter IEC C14 connector). Trial and error.
-
Dropped in my Nord 1200AS in place of my Hattor NC500 based mono amps. Out of the gate the 1200 throws a spectacular soundstage, left, right, front, back and up. Very 3D and airy sounding with almost exaggerated detail. Sounding a little thin but it is early. It does some amazing things and is a very initial WOW sounding amp.
A crazy contrast I thought about as I carried the Nord in the house under one arm. I remember needing a hand truck and some serious heave ho to get my Parasound A21 in the house. Maybe this is why it sounds a little thin
Note that the Hattor monoblocks have a subpar custom buffer: AFAIK it is based on the Hypex one, just modified to allow opamp rolling and with better components (but I am not sure about the values), they use the Hypex voltage regulators which are not as good as the Sparkos regulators, and the New Class D opamps which are indeed great, but in my opinion inferior to Sparkos and Sonic Imagery (I could compare all three of them in my headamp, not in the Apollon buffers, because I have only one DEXA, and I have the best one, the Ultimate, and two each of the other two).
So it is entirely believable that the 1200AS2 sounds better than that. But a better buffer and better opamps will make a huge difference on the NC500 based amps. Technology evolves. OTOH the Hattor passive preamps (or their little brother Khozmo) and the looks in general of their products are great. And the new ice edge tech is splendid competition for Bruno Putzeys, which is a very good thing indeed for all of us.
Roberto
-
Inside Hattor NC500
[IMG] http://www.hattor.com/images/nc500_premium/4.jpg
Hypex SMPS heatsink does not protect the NC500 module, bad decission. And short distance too.
Same bad decission in Nord NC500. At least the distance is greater than in Hattor. Then is OK.
[IMG] http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/nord/open1.jpg
Nord NC500 stereo
[IMG] https://static.wixstatic.com/media/bee373_558296dd2b0946578b76a0aa1db06d3a~mv2_d_4032_3024_s_4_2.jpg/v1/fill/w_1120,h_840,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/bee373_558296dd2b0946578b76a0aa1db06d3a~mv2_d_4032_3024_s_4_2.jpg
Apollo NC800SL, with NC500 in stereo, the Hypex SMPS heatsinks are better placed.
[IMG] https://www.apollonaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Apollon-Audio-Hypex-Nc500-based-Amplifier-top.jpg
Rouge Audio STUDIO N-7, with NC500 in stereo, the Hypex SMPS heatsinks are better placed.
[IMG] https://static.wixstatic.com/media/ae8ca7_84e167196cc94daf91064a01d65f4b7c~mv2_d_2529_2144_s_2.jpg/v1/crop/x_534,y_228,w_1739,h_1284/fill/w_600,h_443,al_c,q_80,usm_2.00_1.00_0.00/ae8ca7_84e167196cc94daf91064a01d65f4b7c~mv2_d_2529_2144_s_2.jpg
I can see a RF/EMI filter.
-
Inside Hattor NC500
[IMG] http://www.hattor.com/images/nc500_premium/4.jpg
Hypex SMPS heatsink does not protect the NC500 module, bad decission. And short distance too.
Same bad decission in Nord NC500. At least the distance is greater than in Hattor. Then is OK.
[IMG] http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/nord/open1.jpg
Nord NC500 stereo
[IMG] https://static.wixstatic.com/media/bee373_558296dd2b0946578b76a0aa1db06d3a~mv2_d_4032_3024_s_4_2.jpg/v1/fill/w_1120,h_840,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/bee373_558296dd2b0946578b76a0aa1db06d3a~mv2_d_4032_3024_s_4_2.jpg
Apollo NC800SL, with NC500 in stereo, the Hypex SMPS heatsinks are better placed.
[IMG] https://www.apollonaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Apollon-Audio-Hypex-Nc500-based-Amplifier-top.jpg
Rouge Audio STUDIO N-7, with NC500 in stereo, the Hypex SMPS heatsinks are better placed.
[IMG] https://static.wixstatic.com/media/ae8ca7_84e167196cc94daf91064a01d65f4b7c~mv2_d_2529_2144_s_2.jpg/v1/crop/x_534,y_228,w_1739,h_1284/fill/w_600,h_443,al_c,q_80,usm_2.00_1.00_0.00/ae8ca7_84e167196cc94daf91064a01d65f4b7c~mv2_d_2529_2144_s_2.jpg
I can see a RF/EMI filter.
Does the vicinity of the heat sink mainly affects the RF/EMI? NAD M22 looks like has a steel barrier between the power supply and the amplifier modules.
-
The heatsinks works as a shield.
The very expensive Hypex SMPS are of low RF/EMI radiation, so leaving a reasonable distance there will be no problems.
If the case has space, the logical thing is to take advantage of that shield <- good engineering.
-
To finish with Hattor NC500, a thread in other forums:
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31985-hattor-audio-class-d-hypex/
The more interesting is in the page 3, by Roberto, aka mocenigo.
-> https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31985-hattor-audio-class-d-hypex/?do=findComment&comment=794493
-
The heatsinks works as a shield.
The very expensive Hypex SMPS are of low RF/EMI radiation, so leaving a reasonable distance there will be no problems.
If the case has space, the logical thing is to take advantage of that shield <- good engineering.
Thank you for the reply. I have seen Copper shielding/cage for similar purpose but they were mostly in the application that had antenna.
-
Are we comparing how the modules are placed in the cases or how they sound? Is there anyone else in this thread that are owners of the Hattor, Nord NC500 and Nord 1200AS amps? I will be stand on what my ears are telling me.
-
Looking at how they have implemented the same module we will get an idea of how careful the seller is.
The best inside is the Apollo Audio. With a case with fewer holes it would be better I think.
Some seem that as they sell amplifiers could sell refrigerators or... I like to appreciate the love of a work well done.
-
Would the following graph from Hypex NC500 spec: https://www.hypex.nl/documenten/download/854 (https://www.hypex.nl/documenten/download/854) be equivalent to a section of graph of the 1200AS2 ICE module for comparison?.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=186340)
-
Amirm has measured the frequency/phase response of Hypex NC400 at my request. When it is possible, with the NC500 and others.
After correctly setting the very expensive AP analyzer, with external AES-17 filter.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-hypex-nc400-diy-amp.5907/post-133012
(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/1546109265760-png.19593/)
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-hypex-nc400-diy-amp.5907/post-133014
There are actually two types of AES-17 filters for Audio Precision analyzers.
* One is internal and is designed to give you the standardized bandwidth for general work. That filter is NOT sufficient for class-D amplifiers, nor delta-sigma DACs with a lot of noise shaping. These products have such high slew rate that they screw up the front-end of the analyzer, resulting in erroneous THD measurements and may even confuse the auto-scalar.
* For these measurements, you must use the external, passive AES-17 filter as I have been using...
Well, there are phase shift but much less than IcePower 1200AS2, 700AS2 or Pascal M-Pro modules. Better engineering with frequency/phase in Hypex NC400.
-
Well, there are phase shift but much less than IcePower 1200AS2, 700AS2 or Pascal M-Pro modules. Better engineering with frequency/phase in Hypex NC400.
You STILL don't understand how to read these graphs, despite someone else pointing out your error to you in that same thread!! Your conclusion is invalid.
You made the same mistake with the three graphs you posted of class D amps (can't find the post now, it was yesterday or the day before). The first graph showed one amp's impedance response, while the other two graphs showed the phase of the other two amps' frequency response.
(My emphasis)
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-hypex-nc400-diy-amp.5907/page-11#post-132989
-
You can modelate any amp like an Impedance and a source (voltage usually, SS). The source is ideal, without impedance. Only V and/or I. Only we have Ohm's law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law ALL is EASY. Only V(f) (or I) varies with the frequency in the source.
[Big IMG] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/51/Internal_resistance_model.svg/1280px-Internal_resistance_model.svg.png
With class A and class AB the impedance is only resistive (r). With SS amp, voltage varies and the traditional (dynamic) loudspeakers (R+jX(f)) respond according to said excitation.
With class D the impedance is not only resistive. The excitation will depend on the voltage(f) and the x(f).
Explain how in a laboratory you will use a class D amplifier with this problem to study the exact response of the speakers.
-
Um, I have no idea why laboratory testing of speakers is relevant, but the impedance of the load swamps the output impedance of the amp. (Again, you're not reading the graphs.)
-
To finish, with class A or AB the phase is constant, FIX. All is EASY.
But with class D the phase varies and too much in IcePower modules. We have other variable in the equation, the phase. And the x(f,phase) too.
Then you can use a class D amplifier only in the frequency band where phase is constant or almost. Icepower 1200AS2 only f < 500 Hz. Ideally with a subwoofer but not with a woofer or, much less, with a tweeter!
-
You don't know what the graph means. So yes, if "finish" means stop, then please do that.
-
Again, amplifier is like an ideal source and impedance.
The graphs are the measures of this impedance, aka the amp (ideal source do not have impedance). Varations of frequency, phase and amplitude.
-
Please just read the label on the graph you posted. Does it say impedance? No.
-
I give.