[Stu Pitt]

I've been out of the "hifi scene" for a while now. I haven't bought any components or anything else related to my main system for going on 8 years now. The only thing I've bought is new speaker cable so that it was long enough last time I moved. I haven't spent much time here during that time either.

There are a lot of things I'm just frankly trying to figure out why...

Digital preamps.
Why? I understand sources these days are pretty much all digital. I understand wanting to use digital inputs rather than analog. But why buy a digital preamp? Wouldn't a great "analog" preamp and a separate DAC be the better investment? Formats come and go. Today's latest format won't exactly be cutting edge and will most likely be bettered next year. Sure it'll still sound great, but how long until it's obsolete or didn't ever take off? So you buy a great digital preamp today. Next month MQA comes out and you've got to have it. Now what? Add a DAC? You buy the latest digital preamp that does DSD. Next year, the DSD guys announce they'll now longer use it.

It just seems to me that the digital preamp is destined to become the receiver my father threw out a few years ago - it had an 8-track player built in. He used the receiver for quite a while, long after the 8-track format was dead. When I bought my Bryston B60, I was looking into buying the original Naim Uniti. It had a built in CD player, DAC, wifi antenna, etc. I think it only had one analog input. All I could think of was how long it would be until the only usable parts were the amplification and tuner. Sorry, but I've always felt the best long term investment in a system is the amplification. Second being speakers, as the room can change.

Then there's the whole music streaming services thing. I looked into, then asked myself why. I don't spend more than the $30/month price for new music. I either buy used an Amazon or check stuff out from my local library. I'd more or less be paying to listen to music I already own. I'm not sold on high res. IMO its the mastering, not the sheer number of bits. I've bought some stuff from HD Tracks. It was stuff that I didn't own or stuff that I already own, really like, and heard the SQ was far better than what I've already got.

And I've got quite a bit of high res stuff and a great high res player - vinyl

And I don't buy into the newer is better. Or at least when better stuff comes out, the older gear it replaces somehow sounds worse. My B60 doesn't have a chip programmed to make it sound worse when the line is upgraded.

So long story short... I feel like I'm becoming my grandfather. Am I an old geezer who's set in his ways at the ripe old age of 42?

[rollo]

No your not just wiser. Great sound is great sound no matter how old it is. Building a "system" is the key. Knowing what goes with what can save allot of money and headaches.  Agree newer is not always better. Better is better.
For me buying into digital gear these days these days boils down to one thing. Upgrade with future factory upgrades as format improves. Paying lots of money for a DAC would be just insane if the component could not be upgraded. No one wants their brand new expensive DAC to be bettered in 6 months or so. That is throwing money away.
At this point in time speakers and front ends are the areas I concentrate on. 42 ?? A baby. Try 68 oh my.


charles

[Phil A]

You have about another 25 years before you reach your geezer potential (in a few months I'll be 67 and if I get into a bar fight I'm perfectly capable of gumming someone to death ).  Whatever sounds good and gives you enjoyment is fine.  I have about a half dozen systems (don't sell as much as I used to - either end up rotating something I've upgraded to another system or if it's not worth that much I just give it away).  I have one secondary system where I have an all in one integrated/DAC and I really like it.  It doesn't do DSD but can do 24/192 over ethernet and I enjoy the system lots.  My office system also has an integrated/DAC and I enjoy that as well. 

[Mag]

I've been out of the "hifi scene" for a while now. I haven't bought any components or anything else related to my main system for going on 8 years now. The only thing I've bought is new speaker cable so that it was long enough last time I moved. I haven't spent much time here during that time either.

There are a lot of things I'm just frankly trying to figure out why...

Digital preamps.
Why? I understand sources these days are pretty much all digital. I understand wanting to use digital inputs rather than analog. But why buy a digital preamp? Wouldn't a great "analog" preamp and a separate DAC be the better investment? Formats come and go. Today's latest format won't exactly be cutting edge and will most likely be bettered next year. Sure it'll still sound great, but how long until it's obsolete or didn't ever take off? So you buy a great digital preamp today. Next month MQA comes out and you've got to have it. Now what? Add a DAC? You buy the latest digital preamp that does DSD. Next year, the DSD guys announce they'll now longer use it.

It just seems to me that the digital preamp is destined to become the receiver my father threw out a few years ago - it had an 8-track player built in. He used the receiver for quite a while, long after the 8-track format was dead. When I bought my Bryston B60, I was looking into buying the original Naim Uniti. It had a built in CD player, DAC, wifi antenna, etc. I think it only had one analog input. All I could think of was how long it would be until the only usable parts were the amplification and tuner. Sorry, but I've always felt the best long term investment in a system is the amplification. Second being speakers, as the room can change.

Then there's the whole music streaming services thing. I looked into, then asked myself why. I don't spend more than the $30/month price for new music. I either buy used an Amazon or check stuff out from my local library. I'd more or less be paying to listen to music I already own. I'm not sold on high res. IMO its the mastering, not the sheer number of bits. I've bought some stuff from HD Tracks. It was stuff that I didn't own or stuff that I already own, really like, and heard the SQ was far better than what I've already got.

And I've got quite a bit of high res stuff and a great high res player - vinyl

And I don't buy into the newer is better. Or at least when better stuff comes out, the older gear it replaces somehow sounds worse. My B60 doesn't have a chip programmed to make it sound worse when the line is upgraded.

So long story short... I feel like I'm becoming my grandfather. Am I an old geezer who's set in his ways at the ripe old age of 42?

I'm also getting older but not a geezer yet.

IMO the benefits of a digital pre-amp is that the audio can be manipulated to a higher resolution with digital. For example as I said before I piggyback my dac into my SP2 and use the dac in digital mode. So the audio for say blu ray/dvd in 48k is upsampled to 192k then another 96k. With blu ray lpcm and dts Master audio the high bitstream content is what separates it from dvd and other formats. IMO it out classes every other format. Sacd multi-channel is very good but with the HDMI copyright protection I can't do a direct comparison.

I've heard some hi-rez recordings that are definitely better, others though are bettered by good mastering. Rush-Camera Eye was one recording that seemed to be better then the cd version on first listen. Closer listening revealed to me that it is not the same recording released on the cd which IMO is the better version.

I believe dac, pre-amps, amps, speakers etc. have all achieved high quality standards. It's how the dac's are used combined with high quality master recording (blu ray) that realistic concert playback is now possible.

With increased resolution come increased heat to the amp speakers if you push the spl level, particularly in the lower bass frequencies. So you want robust amps, speakers that can handle the increased heat and yet maintain articulate detail.

I understand the appeal of streaming. IMO it hasn't reached the standard of high fidelity though it is quite good. But as I mention digital can be manipulated to a much higher standard and with improved dac implementation it won't be long until streaming reaches high fidelity standards.

[charmerci]

As for audio - yes, I'd have to say that you are an old geezer.

People need to buy these things so that research can continue to improve the tech. I'm "sorry" to say that digital is the way of the future. You may not like the sound of it now but as the computers get faster and smaller AND much cheaper, the future will eventually bring amazing sound (tailored to suit however you want) in tiny packages and little or no cost. It will be amazing.

Yes, those large, metal behemoths will eventually be dinosaurs of an ancient past. It may come faster than you think - though not next year.


Look, right now an ordinary person can instantly send a video from just about anywhere in the world for such little cost, from a small city Viet Nam to Kenya for example, that simply wasn't possible 30 years ago.

[veloceleste]

NO! Nothing ever stays the same but that doesn't mean it necessarily gets better, easier or simpler. Potential improvement does not guarantee long term success.

[Stu Pitt]

As for audio - yes, I'd have to say that you are an old geezer.

People need to buy these things so that research can continue to improve the tech. I'm "sorry" to say that digital is the way of the future. You may not like the sound of it now but as the computers get faster and smaller AND much cheaper, the future will eventually bring amazing sound (tailored to suit however you want) in tiny packages and little or no cost. It will be amazing.

Yes, those large, metal behemoths will eventually be dinosaurs of an ancient past. It may come faster than you think - though not next year.


Look, right now an ordinary person can instantly send a video from just about anywhere in the world for such little cost, from a small city Viet Nam to Kenya for example, that simply wasn't possible 30 years ago.

I’m not afraid of digital. Quite the opposite, actually. I haven’t owned a CDP since I bought the original Rega DAC. I don’t have a CDP in my car. I have an Alpine receiver that doesn’t have a CE drive, and I use my iPod Classic. 99% of what I play is digital.

I don’t do a streaming service because I own practically everything I want to listen to. Why pay to listen to it if it’s already ripped to my hard drive in a lossless format? I’ve got SiriusXM and will listen to that when I’m bored, or Howard Stern

And I’m all for technology improving. I really like where companies like Sonos and Bluesound have gone and continue to go. Downside is the full sized gear like hifi components are becoming more scarce. Funny I mentioned Howard Stern earlier, because a few weeks ago on his show he made the comment to one of the guys on the show “who owns an actual stereo anymore?” He’s right. Most people have gone to the powered wireless speakers. I’m not against that; when I move to a bigger place I’ll get Bluesound speakers for different rooms. But no way I’ll get rid of my actual stereo.

[Stu Pitt]

I'm also getting older but not a geezer yet.

IMO the benefits of a digital pre-amp is that the audio can be manipulated to a higher resolution with digital. For example as I said before I piggyback my dac into my SP2 and use the dac in digital mode. So the audio for say blu ray/dvd in 48k is upsampled to 192k then another 96k. With blu ray lpcm and dts Master audio the high bitstream content is what separates it from dvd and other formats. IMO it out classes every other format. Sacd multi-channel is very good but with the HDMI copyright protection I can't do a direct comparison.

I've heard some hi-rez recordings that are definitely better, others though are bettered by good mastering. Rush-Camera Eye was one recording that seemed to be better then the cd version on first listen. Closer listening revealed to me that it is not the same recording released on the cd which IMO is the better version.

I believe dac, pre-amps, amps, speakers etc. have all achieved high quality standards. It's how the dac's are used combined with high quality master recording (blu ray) that realistic concert playback is now possible.

With increased resolution come increased heat to the amp speakers if you push the spl level, particularly in the lower bass frequencies. So you want robust amps, speakers that can handle the increased heat and yet maintain articulate detail.

I understand the appeal of streaming. IMO it hasn't reached the standard of high fidelity though it is quite good. But as I mention digital can be manipulated to a much higher standard and with improved dac implementation it won't be long until streaming reaches high fidelity standards.

But can’t an outboard DAC do all of that? My issue is the digital preamp becomes a throwaway item when the formats change, but a standard analog preamp doesn’t.

[charmerci]

I’m not afraid of digital. Quite the opposite, actually. I haven’t owned a CDP since I bought the original Rega DAC. I don’t have a CDP in my car. I have an Alpine receiver that doesn’t have a CE drive, and I use my iPod Classic. 99% of what I play is digital.

I don’t do a streaming service because I own practically everything I want to listen to. Why pay to listen to it if it’s already ripped to my hard drive in a lossless format? I’ve got SiriusXM and will listen to that when I’m bored, or Howard Stern

OK - I stand corrected!


As for streaming, I feel the same there.

[rollo]

Digital done right is here right now. Just that done right unfortunately costs more. Until one actually hears a state of the art DAC directly compared to what they have you will never know the capabilities of said format. As the Beatles once said "We get by with a little help from our friends".
Streaming is coming along. Upsampling is not my cup of tea. Now higher sampling rate at time of recording, in hook line and sinker. tale Miles Davis blue. The original CD compared to new 20 bit version takes the cake. Just sounds over detailed and Hi fi to our ears. Same with DSD.
Hey we are old like a fine wine. 


charles

[Elizabeth]

In my 70th year... I am officially a 'geezer-ette'. I also had not bought much for eight years.. But this year with a pile of cash sitting in the bank I decided time to UPGRADE.
Bigger speakers, better DAC.
I agree no need for a digital preamp. Mainly because many years ago I bought the first digtal preamp Sony ??1000. Bought it, and stopped listening to music. After months of no music, I asked myself why??? and realized it was the Sony POS.
Sold that, bought a real preamp, Counterpoint. (sadly that kept breaking)
But the understanding that a digital pos is NOT a preamp? 100% got it.
My dealer is always going on about streaming.. (I guess he wants me to buy something?) I have no need for streaming. For folks who do not own a ton of music? yeah. for me? no way.
Also.. A new idea (Hey, new idea from old codger-ette?) Since I have been weeding my LP collection*, I realized after playing hundreds of LPs for only the first five minutes.. Hey this is HEALTHY!! Getting up, changing the record, maybe cleaning it, playing a few minutes. repeat. Way healthier than sitting on my arse for hours listening to five CDs in the changer. Just think how lazy you COULD get with streaming. Why even get out of bed. Just turn the music on remotely, never have to move again...

*weeding... Clearing out the junk. Studies in libraries show weeding out clutter leads to a better more frequent use of the collection. PROVEN. So every few years I try to clear out the dreck. This year bigger and more aggressive..

[twitch54]

LOL......42, you might be a 'geezer' but old you're not !

now Elizabeth....... 70, my guess is you're not a geezer, as for your age ........... like fine wine !

(discloser, I'm only 5 years behind you)

[Calypte]

"So every few years I try to clear out the dreck. "  What do you do with the "dreck?"  I was at a listening event in so. Calif. (Brucknerthon 2018), and I discovered that I could not give away surplus CDs.

[Elizabeth]

"So every few years I try to clear out the dreck. "  What do you do with the "dreck?"  I was at a listening event in so. Calif. (Brucknerthon 2018), and I discovered that I could not give away surplus CDs.

Long play, 33 and a 1/3... LP, vinyl... Wax. licorice.
I first offer them to my favorite used record dealer. He gives me a pretty good price.
(I despise selling little stuff online) The junk he does not want goes to a Goodwill. Goodwill mainly ends up with Classical dreck. (and guess where I first bought that stuff from? Right, Goodwill, and some from Half Price Books $1 shelf)
I bought nearly all of my Jazz records from that dealer. Good stuff, good prices. I am glad to sell my castoffs to him.

[zoom25]

Speaking or preamps, James, how's the BDAP-1 coming along...2019...2020? 

[James Tanner]

Speaking or preamps, James, how's the BDAP-1 coming along...2019...2020? 

It will be called the BP-18 and still a ways off.

james

[zoom25]

It will be called the BP-18 and still a ways off.

james

It has a name! BP-18.

[Stu Pitt]

It will be called the BP-18 and still a ways off.

james

So please educate an old geezer, James

What advantages does a digital preamp have over a traditional “analog” preamp? Are their plans to make the DAC boards upgradable as new technology comes out?

[Elizabeth]

Are their plans to make the DAC boards upgradable as new technology comes out?

Hah ha ha ha  hah hah hah ha ha ha hah hah hah hah ha ha hah hah hah ha ha ha hah hah Hah ha  ha ha hah hah hah ha ha ha hah hah hah hah ha ha hah hah hah ha ha ha hah hah... etc.

[toocool4]

I don’t think you are old, just happy with what you have. Some people always want the latest kit thinking it’s better or just want new kit all the time.
I would like to say nothing get's out of date quicker than new tech, like you have mentioned Hi-Rez, DSD, MQA etc what's next? They are not compatible with each other. I have a record player a tape deck with those formats i can play anything from the 60's to the current day, i would like to see those modern formats last that long.

I am like you I don’t change often as I chose wisely in the first place. When I change, whatever I am changing to has to sound genuinely better than what I currently have. Luckily for me the equipment I run the company don’t bring out new kit every 5 minutes telling me it’s better and therefore trying to extract money from me.

The last thing i bought is a cartridge EMT JSD S75 back in May and before that i had not bought anything major in about 3 years.

I don’t stream as I like to own physical media, for me streaming is only good for me to discovering new music then if I like it I’ll go out and buy it.